Is Irish tribalism getting a foothold?

First topic message reminder :

Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

GunsGerms wrote:

Monkeyan wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Yes, but certainly not in a bad way. I wouldn't conflate rivalry with antagonism. As for why, I would suggest that it is attributed to Ulster and Connacht improving markedly and Ulster in particular disrupting what was for a time, very much a two horse race. Now three provinces are competing in Europe, at approximately the same level, with Connacht only slightly behind, inevitably there is more scope for supporters of each province to directly compare their team's performance. In turn, this leads to a greater and more spirited debate as regards who should get into the Ireland side.

Thats the diplomatic version of events.

How so? As an Ulsterman, I am probably more aware of a rivalry with Munster and Leinster, in that we can and do beat them more often than say 5 or 6 years' ago and are now viewed as a decent side, rather than spirited also rans. However, now that Ulster has exited the HC, I am firmly behind Munster. So there is more of a rivalry, but not in the sense that there is a rivalry between say Man United and Liverpool, whose fans would never support the other team, even if it is was in the Champions' League final against a German or Spanish side.

Monkeyan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Monkeyan wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Yes, but certainly not in a bad way. I wouldn't conflate rivalry with antagonism. As for why, I would suggest that it is attributed to Ulster and Connacht improving markedly and Ulster in particular disrupting what was for a time, very much a two horse race. Now three provinces are competing in Europe, at approximately the same level, with Connacht only slightly behind, inevitably there is more scope for supporters of each province to directly compare their team's performance. In turn, this leads to a greater and more spirited debate as regards who should get into the Ireland side.

Thats the diplomatic version of events.

How so? As an Ulsterman, I am probably more aware of a rivalry with Munster and Leinster, in that we can and do beat them more often than say 5 or 6 years' ago and are now viewed as a decent side, rather than spirited also rans. However, now that Ulster has exited the HC, I am firmly behind Munster. So there is more of a rivalry, but not in the sense that there is a rivalry between say Man United and Liverpool, whose fans would never support the other team, even if it is was in the Champions' League final against a German or Spanish side.

Monk agreed,

I was actually surprised myself by how emotionally invested I was in wanting Leinster to beat Northampton in 2011. I mean, the default Irish v English side was there but I really really really got into it, I'd say only a mere 20 BPM on my heart rate less than had it been Munster.

Ive siad this before, I do not so much enjoy it when we beat Leinster & Ulster, i just really hate losing those matches.

Agreed, my province first and the other three after that, certainly would not want any of the Irish teams to lose to a team from any other country purely becuase Ulster were not in the competition.
For a positive example of this, anyone who was in Twickenham a couple of weekends ago would have seen large numbers of supporters of all three provinces happily mixing in pubs and the ground, and many going to more than one game. There was certainly a wee bit of banter but nothing over the top or agressive.

debaters1 wrote:
I was actually surprised myself by how emotionally invested I was in wanting Leinster to beat Northampton in 2011. I mean, the default Irish v English side was there but I really really really got into it, I'd say only a mere 20 BPM on my heart rate less than had it been Munster.

Does that make you a de facto Meinster?

GunsGerms wrote:

debaters1 wrote:
I was actually surprised myself by how emotionally invested I was in wanting Leinster to beat Northampton in 2011. I mean, the default Irish v English side was there but I really really really got into it, I'd say only a mere 20 BPM on my heart rate less than had it been Munster.

Does that make you a de facto Meinster?

Or Lunster?!
Nah i was supporting Ulster in last years Final, for a number of reasons. Wasn't overly thrilled at leinster becoming triple champions before Munster. Having been beaten by Ulster in the QF at Thomond, them winning the tournie would have eased the pain slightly and as Ulster were heavy underdogs and being Irish, i couldnt help but want the upset too!

debaters1 wrote:
Or Lunster?!
Nah i was supporting Ulster in last years Final, for a number of reasons. Wasn't overly thrilled at leinster becoming triple champions before Munster. Having been beaten by Ulster in the QF at Thomond, them winning the tournie would have eased the pain slightly and as Ulster were heavy underdogs and being Irish, i couldnt help but want the upset too!

I can identify with that logic.

Given that the Ridings in Yorkshire seem to have sorted out their issues I don't understand why the Irish Provinces can't do the same.

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Obviously rivalry has increased. More people are supporting the provincial rugby teams than ever before ergo more rivalry. More supporters across the board benefits all the provinces.

Tribalism on the other hand is a totally different concept, where the strength of the tribe is usually at the expense of the neighbouring tribes. While a few posters love to experience the schadenfreude of other provinces' mishaps, the vast majority share the same highs and lows of their neighbours.

The real question is whether provincialism is a bad thing. It's nearly 5 years since Ireland had the "clear the air" meeting about how some players played for their province with more passion than for their country. That accusation was levelled against the Munster players, and was followed by Ireland winning the GS and Munster entering a period of "transition". Coincidentally Leinster moved on from ladyboys to eurolions with a new found sense of purpose.
The next phase saw more Leinster players finding their way into green shirts but accompanied an inexorable slide in Ireland results. The punctuation of the trend with occasional one-off performances showed the players could get up for certain games but most of the time didn't. Have Leinster not only succeeded Munster as HEC champions but also become guilty of succeeding them in their provincial priority?

The Great Aukster wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Obviously rivalry has increased. More people are supporting the provincial rugby teams than ever before ergo more rivalry. More supporters across the board benefits all the provinces.

Tribalism on the other hand is a totally different concept, where the strength of the tribe is usually at the expense of the neighbouring tribes. While a few posters love to experience the schadenfreude of other provinces' mishaps, the vast majority share the same highs and lows of their neighbours.

The real question is whether provincialism is a bad thing. It's nearly 5 years since Ireland had the "clear the air" meeting about how some players played for their province with more passion than for their country. That accusation was levelled against the Munster players, and was followed by Ireland winning the GS and Munster entering a period of "transition". Coincidentally Leinster moved on from ladyboys to eurolions with a new found sense of purpose.
The next phase saw more Leinster players finding their way into green shirts but accompanied an inexorable slide in Ireland results. The punctuation of the trend with occasional one-off performances showed the players could get up for certain games but most of the time didn't. Have Leinster not only succeeded Munster as HEC champions but also become guilty of succeeding them in their provincial priority?

Oh dear what a load of horse turd.

You are implying that Irelands slip in form is directly correlated to Leinsters dominance in Europe and therefore too many Leinster players in the team and Ireland's slam a result of a golden generation of Munster players? That Leinster players favour playing for Leinster over Ireland?

If that were true the only reason for that would be that they were getting better coaching at Leinster than with Ireland.

The fact that you clearly at least at one stage considered Leinster to merit the label ladyboys and you are willing to casually throw this into a post does to me reflect some degree of engrained bitterness that you are reluctant to let go of.

Opinions such as yours seem to be fuelled by jealousy rather than based on any sort of intellegent emperical analysis. Sad that views like this do actually find their way into the media on occasion too.

GunsGerms wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Have Leinster not only succeeded Munster as HEC champions but also become guilty of succeeding them in their provincial priority?

Oh dear what a load of horse turd.

You are implying that Irelands slip in form is directly correlated to Leinsters dominance in Europe and therefore too many Leinster players in the team and Ireland's slam a result of a golden generation of Munster players? That Leinster players favour playing for Leinster over Ireland?

If that were true the only reason for that would be that they were getting better coaching at Leinster than with Ireland.

The fact that you clearly at least at one stage considered Leinster to merit the label ladyboys and you are willing to casually throw this into a post does to me reflect some degree of engrained bitterness that you are reluctant to let go of.

Opinions such as yours seem to be fuelled by jealousy rather than based on any sort of intellegent emperical analysis. Sad that views like this do actually find their way into the media on occasion too.

Obviously some people don't have the education to distinguish between a question and an implication.

Perhaps I should also point out that it wasn't me but a former Leinster International player who labelled the Leinster pack "ladyboys", so the term was in common usage around that time. I can assure you that I have no bitterness or jealousy towards Leinster, but I have obviously touched a nerve with you since you prefer to resort to personal attack rather than address the question through intelligent empirical debate.

The media have wrecked the country. No one has a clue anymore.

Too many fans have come into the game on the heino fuelled provincial bandwagon over the past decade and have no understanding or appreciation for the sport. They don't understand the difference between rivaly and hatred, they are brainwashed by the media and the only thing seperating them from muppet wendyball hoodlems their bank balance, education and s deluded sense of their own knowledge and self importance.

Everyone should be sent down to their local clubs on a wet november evening to hold tacklebags for the U-14s. Maybe that'll teach them a bit of respect and give them a perspective they can't get reading matchday programmes, the indo or watching skysports.

rodders wrote:The media have wrecked the country. No one has a clue anymore.

Too many fans have come into the game on the heino fuelled provincial bandwagon over the past decade and have no understanding or appreciation for the sport. They don't understand the difference between rivaly and hatred, they are brainwashed by the media and the only thing seperating them from muppet wendyball hoodlems their bank balance, education and s deluded sense of their own knowledge and self importance.

Everyone should be sent down to their local clubs on a wet november evening to hold tacklebags for the U-14s. Maybe that'll teach them a bit of respect and give them a perspective they can't get reading matchday programmes, the indo or watching skysports.

Rodders gets a A+ for his essay. Now the rest of you brats don't be telling me that the dog ate your homework!

I think that its fair to say that many players have that bit more passion for the provincial game than for the international game.

It is a view I have long held that hasn't always been popular.

red_stag wrote:I think that its fair to say that many players have that bit more passion for the provincial game than for the international game.

It is a view I have long held that hasn't always been popular.

I don't agree with you there,I've seen Irish players giving everything so often for Ireland that it just seems like an insult to say they aren't as passionate about playing for their country.

Why is it an insult? This is what I never understand. Why is it a big deal to say that.

I know lots of fans from all three of the big provinces who openly admit to being more passionate about the province than Ireland. I have no doubt that it is possible for players to feel that way to some extent.

Have you ever seen Paul O'Connell play with the same passion that he showed against Quins?

The players clearly think this is possible. Rob Kearney (rightly in my opinion) suggested in 2009 that Munster players were capable of finding another gear with the province than the national side.

I know Ronan O'Gara, Andrew Trimble and Rory Best have all spoken about at times how they find the province a more pleasurable experience to the national team.

One of the reasons it is hard for the Lions to win is that the four countries all have such a powerful bond that the players find difficult to separate from. I think Ireland has the same problem to some extent.

Well there may be some merit in what both of you are saying, in that the quality of coaching could well be better in Leinster than with Ireland and that perhaps the Leinster squad is more tight knit than the Irish one and thus the players could be willing to put that little bit more effort in/take more personal physical risk to get the job done.

Or, Ireland are on the right side of 3 one score losses and a draw and we are celebrating our Grand Slam and extoiling the depth of our squad now. Fine margins lads.

If it was acceptable for Rob Kearney to ask the Munster brigade in 2008 what their focus & dedication was, why are Leinster (and for that matter Ulster players too) beyond reproachin this regard? Honestly, answer the question please.

For what it is worth, i do not see any underperformance by an individual or collective with Ireland right now, beyond that of being outperformed by their opposition on any given day; i believe in their individual and collective efforts basically.

We are not nearly as bad as the results of the 6N suggest and given that we can literally look at a fellow international side go through an 8 game losing streak and then go on to win the Championship, shows us the fine margins that the international game operates in.

But if Rob had the right (some would even say the responsibility) to question established Ireland squad members from one province as to their commitment to the cause, why now, when the increase in Leinster (and Ulster) players has coincided with a dip in results (and many would argue performance too, but that is another debate) why cannot we even consider the possibility that Leinster players trust their squad more than the hybrid team?

red_stag wrote:Why is it an insult? This is what I never understand. Why is it a big deal to say that.

I know lots of fans from all three of the big provinces who openly admit to being more passionate about the province than Ireland. I have no doubt that it is possible for players to feel that way to some extent.

Have you ever seen Paul O'Connell play with the same passion that he showed against Quins?

The players clearly think this is possible. Rob Kearney (rightly in my opinion) suggested in 2009 that Munster players were capable of finding another gear with the province than the national side.

I know Ronan O'Gara, Andrew Trimble and Rory Best have all spoken about at times how they find the province a more pleasurable experience to the national team.

One of the reasons it is hard for the Lions to win is that the four countries all have such a powerful bond that the players find difficult to separate from. I think Ireland has the same problem to some extent.

Maybe it's a we have a different definition of what that means.To me saying they have less passion means they don't care as much or try as hard when playing for Ireland.Imo when you look at matches like the Wales game this year where they defended like lunatics for 37 minutes you can't tell me those players don't care as much as they do about the provinces.

Som players might find the provinces more pleasurable but that can be for a huge number of reasons,they may not get on with some of the players or staff in the coaching setup,they may be used to starting for their province but be unsure of a place with Ireland,maybe they have a role with their province that they're comfortable with but in the national team they have to adapt to doing something different,they could have a wife and kids at home that they don't like leaving behind for large amounts of time to stay in camp.That's just off the top of my head.

red_stag wrote:Why is it an insult? This is what I never understand. Why is it a big deal to say that.

I know lots of fans from all three of the big provinces who openly admit to being more passionate about the province than Ireland. I have no doubt that it is possible for players to feel that way to some extent.

Have you ever seen Paul O'Connell play with the same passion that he showed against Quins?

The players clearly think this is possible. Rob Kearney (rightly in my opinion) suggested in 2009 that Munster players were capable of finding another gear with the province than the national side.

I know Ronan O'Gara, Andrew Trimble and Rory Best have all spoken about at times how they find the province a more pleasurable experience to the national team.

One of the reasons it is hard for the Lions to win is that the four countries all have such a powerful bond that the players find difficult to separate from. I think Ireland has the same problem to some extent.

You've just played Sin e's trick of making a load of things up and manipulating isolated comments to fit your own view.

Passion is an overrated commodity anyways, every player does their best for whatever team they play for. An ambitious player wants to play at the highest level possible and that is international, what he or she enjoys best is neither here nor there.

In 50 years time do you think anyone will care about the Heino? It will be confined to the dustbin in a few seasons whereas the 6N shall endure for as long as this interglacial period shall allow our species to remain in Europe.

rodders wrote:

You've just played Sin e's trick of making a load of things up and manipulating isolated comments to fit your own view.

Passion is an overrated commodity anyways, every player does their best for whatever team they play for. An ambitious player wants to play at the highest level possible and that is international, what he or she enjoys best is neither here nor there.

In 50 years time do you think anyone will care about the Heino? It will be confined to the dustbin in a few seasons whereas the 6N shall endure for as long as this interglacial period shall allow our species to remain in Europe.

C- Careful, Rodders - your head boy status is slipping. Once BT get their hands on the 6N it will change beyond all recognition. They'll even have interviews with Refs at half time intervals.

The Great Aukster wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Have Leinster not only succeeded Munster as HEC champions but also become guilty of succeeding them in their provincial priority?

Oh dear what a load of horse turd.

You are implying that Irelands slip in form is directly correlated to Leinsters dominance in Europe and therefore too many Leinster players in the team and Ireland's slam a result of a golden generation of Munster players? That Leinster players favour playing for Leinster over Ireland?

If that were true the only reason for that would be that they were getting better coaching at Leinster than with Ireland.

The fact that you clearly at least at one stage considered Leinster to merit the label ladyboys and you are willing to casually throw this into a post does to me reflect some degree of engrained bitterness that you are reluctant to let go of.

Opinions such as yours seem to be fuelled by jealousy rather than based on any sort of intellegent emperical analysis. Sad that views like this do actually find their way into the media on occasion too.

Obviously some people don't have the education to distinguish between a question and an implication.

Perhaps I should also point out that it wasn't me but a former Leinster International player who labelled the Leinster pack "ladyboys", so the term was in common usage around that time. I can assure you that I have no bitterness or jealousy towards Leinster, but I have obviously touched a nerve with you since you prefer to resort to personal attack rather than address the question through intelligent empirical debate.

Yawn. Not worthy of response.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
-George Bernard Shaw

red_stag wrote:Why is it an insult? This is what I never understand. Why is it a big deal to say that.

because the Irish team is more important than provincial sides.

red_stag wrote:
I know lots of fans from all three of the big provinces who openly admit to being more passionate about the province than Ireland. I have no doubt that it is possible for players to feel that way to some extent.

Have you ever seen Paul O'Connell play with the same passion that he showed against Quins?

Yes nearly every time Ireland play England.

rodders wrote:
You've just played Sin e's trick of making a load of things up and manipulating isolated comments to fit your own view.

Passion is an overrated commodity anyways, every player does their best for whatever team they play for. An ambitious player wants to play at the highest level possible and that is international, what he or she enjoys best is neither here nor there.

In 50 years time do you think anyone will care about the Heino? It will be confined to the dustbin in a few seasons whereas the 6N shall endure for as long as this interglacial period shall allow our species to remain in Europe.

Spot on Rodders.

Does any one believe that the French players are more passionate about playing for Clermont than France?

Or are Clermont just a relatively better side at their respective level of rugby in relation to their rivals?

rodders wrote:Does any one believe that the French players are more passionate about playing for Clermont than France?

Or are Clermont just a relatively better side at their respective level of rugby in relation to their rivals?

No I dont.

Its the same in Ireland. Ask any uncapped player if they would like to play for Ireland are you likely to hear them say:

No sorry Id rather just play for my province.

Not in a million years. There is a queue of players chomping at the bit to get into the team because playing for Ireland is the pinicle of professional rugby in Ireland.

Too much generalisation going on as per usual. Generalised questions are very hard to answer honestly because truth very seldom applies to them.

So yes, Rodders, I'd say sometimes French players DO get more passionate about a club like Clermont more than France international....especially when they are not getting on with each other or, more usually, they want to shaft yet another uninspiring coach.

These guys [all players - not just the French] don't operate in a vacuum. Some days they are happy and in a good place mentally and can crush all-comers no matter what side they turn up in; and then at other times if there are a few unhappy campers in the team, things can go downhill as players lose respect for each other - in the very course of a game.

So, sometimes the passion is for Province (not much of it on display in the first half of the season for either Munster or Leinster!!!) and sometimes it can be there in bucket loads for Ireland (Argentina - a few English games - Australia WC game etc)

When players are fully believing what they're doing, I think then mood and passion lift together. The trick is creating a system that doesn't change from Province to International so much...something all players are comfortable with and can slide into. Ireland is still trying to get to that happy place. It might take a year or two yet.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:Does any one believe that the French players are more passionate about playing for Clermont than France?

Or are Clermont just a relatively better side at their respective level of rugby in relation to their rivals?

No I dont.

Its the same in Ireland. Ask any uncapped player if they would like to play for Ireland are you likely to hear them say:

No sorry Id rather just play for my province.

Not in a million years. There is a queue of players chomping at the bit to get into the team because playing for Ireland is the pinicle of professional rugby in Ireland.

Cough Cough. Lions. Cough.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:Does any one believe that the French players are more passionate about playing for Clermont than France?

Or are Clermont just a relatively better side at their respective level of rugby in relation to their rivals?

No I dont.

Its the same in Ireland. Ask any uncapped player if they would like to play for Ireland are you likely to hear them say:

No sorry Id rather just play for my province.

Not in a million years. There is a queue of players chomping at the bit to get into the team because playing for Ireland is the pinicle of professional rugby in Ireland.

Cough Cough. Lions. Cough.

by "in Ireland" in meant within the Irish system and therefore slightly illogically in my head not including the Lions but I take your point.

Guns, you never answered my question as to why Leinster players are to be insulated from questions as to their motivation Or why they are not accountable if, as you suggest, the coaching isnt as good as at Leinster? Conor Murray arguably played his best game of rugby ever in the Ireland v France match. With a poor coach in charge (we'll leave his substitution aside for a second as that is a secondary issue to this one) why did he prosper and some Leinster players didn't?

The more responsibility he was given, the better he has played, ditto with Munster since the 6N. Why can't we expect the same of what we can all acknowledge as a very talented Leinster group?

I am now driving this point because of your refusal to answer my question, i still dont believe there is a short fall in effort from any provincial players but the hubris on display with your righteous idignation at what Auk merely suggested as being a possibility is laughable; Rob Kearney created the (healthy) precedant, so he and his Leinster colleagues are accountable to their peers as a result (much much more so than to any of us keayboard warriors)

SecretFly wrote:Too much generalisation going on as per usual. Generalised questions are very hard to answer honestly because truth very seldom applies to them.

Well yes I am generalising and am happy to do so because generally speaking most players see International rugby as the pinacle and if they don't they are the exception rather than the norm.

This talk of effort and passion is nonsense. Some of the most passionless and effortless displays I've seen have come lately from Munster, Ulster and Leinster, I've seen Irish teams tackle themselves to a standstill in the 6N but some of the same players concede 28 points to a woeful Wasps side playing for Leinster, Ulster and Munster players who stood toe to toe with the ABs get bullied off the park by Saracens and Glasgow.

It's a great story this province v country thing, a great money spinner for lazy, gormless journos and one eyed supporters, but when you stand back and anaylse the reality there is no evidence to suggest players try harder for their provinces than Ireland.

debaters1 wrote:Guns, you never answered my question as to why Leinster players are to be insulated from questions as to their motivation Or why they are not accountable if, as you suggest, the coaching isnt as good as at Leinster? Conor Murray arguably played his best game of rugby ever in the Ireland v France match. With a poor coach in charge (we'll leave his substitution aside for a second as that is a secondary issue to this one) why did he prosper and some Leinster players didn't?

The more responsibility he was given, the better he has played, ditto with Munster since the 6N. Why can't we expect the same of what we can all acknowledge as a very talented Leinster group?

I am now driving this point because of your refusal to answer my question, i still dont believe there is a short fall in effort from any provincial players but the hubris on display with your righteous idignation at what Auk merely suggested as being a possibility is laughable; Rob Kearney created the (healthy) precedant, so he and his Leinster colleagues are accountable to their peers as a result (much much more so than to any of us keayboard warriors)

Murray may have played his best game ever v France but until he sorts his pass out he will never be as good as Stringer IMO. So who cares if it was his best performance for Ireland. He has had plenty of very average ones. Thats has nothing to do with being from Munster he just has a poor pass, box kick and not a great decision maker.

Id say he has been consistently Ireland's weakest player for the last 3 years. The only way was up.

debaters1 wrote:
"Why can't we expect the same of what we can all acknowledge as a very talented Leinster group?"

Firstly I think your question is idiotic hence no response. To respond though if I must I expect any player who puts on an Irish jersey should put their heart and soul into the performance. Thats all that matters to me. If they arent good enough they should be dropped.

It is an idiotic question to dare to question the level of play of Leinster players/your reaction to their level of play being questioned?! Right, QED in respect of the OP's original question anyway.

As for Murray being Irelan's worst player for the past 3 years, I'd put that accolade around our number 8's neck. Or Best's as he had a poor 6 Nations having been playing so well and in a crucial position.

But yes, obviously, all Leinster players were flawless all championship.

debaters1 wrote:It is an idiotic question to dare to question the level of play of Leinster players/your reaction to their level of play being questioned?! Right, QED in respect of the OP's original question anyway.

As for Murray being Irelan's worst player for the past 3 years, I'd put that accolade around our number 8's neck. Or Best's as he had a poor 6 Nations having been playing so well and in a crucial position.

But yes, obviously, all Leinster players were flawless all championship.

Yes because they arent Leinster players when they play for Ireland they are Ireland players.

The issue I have with your comments is that you would appear to be one of those people who simply cant get over their provincial prejudices when watching Ireland play. You insist on categorising and in doing so generalising Ireland players as Leinster players or Munster players. There in lies one of the most banal problems with debates like this.

Kearney made the comment about Munster players in response to ROGs comments after Ireland played NZ in a November series in '08 I think it was. Thats why it originally came up. Maybe if ROG had said nothing there would be no storm in a tea cup.

Best is one of our true world class players at the moment and had a good championship. He is still easily the best hooker in Ireland.

Heaslip (and Drico) are the last Irishmen, not so long ago to be nominated for world player for the year. Heaslips from by his own very high standards (IRB world player of the year nomination worthy performances) may have dropped but the effort and workload he gets through is consistently in the top percentile of all Irish players. As long as he is putting in the effort and there isnt a better option I see no reason for him to be dropped.

debaters1 wrote:But yes, obviously, all Leinster players were flawless all championship.

You just cant help yourself in trying to drag this into another boring Munster v Leinster snore fest.

GunsGerms wrote:Yawn. Not worthy of response.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
-George Bernard Shaw

Past your bedtime? Anyway thanks for the terse, if somewhat limited response.

Few people think more than two or three times a year; I have made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twice a week.
- George Bernard Shaw

The Great Aukster wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yawn. Not worthy of response.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
-George Bernard Shaw

Past your bedtime? Anyway thanks for the terse, if somewhat limited response.

Few people think more than two or three times a year; I have made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twice a week.
- George Bernard Shaw

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. You bore me.

No actually, your reaction elicited my question, not the other way around Guns, but why let fact get in the way of ignoring a qustion because you wont like admitting the answer. And you're dead right about Heaslip being judged against his own high standards, but I dont hink he had much more than a passable 6 N camapign, and if he wasn't the captain I think he may well have lost his place to SOB.

As for your accusation that I cannot see beyond provincial affiliation, utter nonsense, but I'll engage anyway. Players from Ulster and Leinster have been rewarded for the excellent form & perfromances at club level by being capped at International level/becoming 1st choice for Ireland. And I could not be happier for each and every player who has earned their call up/1st team place (one exception being Devin Toner mind, i do not see him as a HC player never mind an Int. lock) So I am colour blind in that regard. Deccie made the right decision to drop ROG and once he selected Jackson, made the correct decision to back him for the rest of the campaign. I do not want us to be like how England treated a young Matthew Tait whereby he was essestially blamed for Engalnd losing and dropped from the squad entriely, ruining a young player for self preservation of the coach. Deccie fell on his sword in that regard (and just in case anyone think I am suggesting Jackson haad a bad campaign, I am not. he is a young player far from the finished article who was solid if unspectacular. Certainly not flawless in his perfromance, but then again, ROG missed four kicks to win a HC in 2000 and went on to be named player of competition after its first 15 seasons.

We have a small playing pool so we need to spend more time nurturing said talent than other countries do (read England, France & SA. And to a lesser extent the AB's) So Deccie could have put on the hindsight and self preservationary glasses and dropped Jackson for Madigan (or brought back ROG for that matter) but he didn't knowing that nothing less than French and Italian wins would have saved his job.

We'll look back very soon and realise just how much good Deccie did for Irish rugby right up until 2013. Not lamenting his departure so much as highlighting his role in developing a squad and a new team, something people here can be very begrudging to admit.

The discussion (added onto the original one) is about how much passion is involved in Provincial verses International, not whether a player wants to play International or not.

All French Top14 players would I'm sure love to play for France but nobody tell me many of them were putting their heart into it during the Italy game this year. You watch the game again and you'll see the lack of 'passion' - it's not confusion, it's not playing the wrong game... it's a lack of passion.

So yes, it happens that International sometimes eludes that alledged 'passion' and extra 'intensity' it's always championed as being. Many varied reasons can bring that about. Too simple to say that International players always give their all, even if it lacks passion - nope, sometimes they don't.

I'd love International to always be a step up for Provincial players. I enjoy Provincial but yep, I'm suspicious of new crowds coming into rugby and not having too many good memories of International and prefering the localised, derby/GAA aspect of Provincial in-fighting. It's a personal thing - some prefer it to International, I don't.

- I think Provincial can be seen by some fans, and then perhaps even some players, as the premium ticket. Playing International is something they want too but as a sweet extra rather than the main meal. If that's the mood of some players, their best bet would be to step aside. O'Driscoll has always said Province is beautiful but International is the holy grail...he always mostly played with sufficient passion to prove his honesty. If you're compromised as a player - step aside.

debaters1 wrote:No actually, your reaction elicited my question, not the other way around Guns, but why let fact get in the way of ignoring a qustion because you wont like admitting the answer. And you're dead right about Heaslip being judged against his own high standards, but I dont hink he had much more than a passable 6 N camapign, and if he wasn't the captain I think he may well have lost his place to SOB.

As for your accusation that I cannot see beyond provincial affiliation, utter nonsense, but I'll engage anyway. Players from Ulster and Leinster have been rewarded for the excellent form & perfromances at club level by being capped at International level/becoming 1st choice for Ireland. And I could not be happier for each and every player who has earned their call up/1st team place (one exception being Devin Toner mind, i do not see him as a HC player never mind an Int. lock) So I am colour blind in that regard. Deccie made the right decision to drop ROG and once he selected Jackson, made the correct decision to back him for the rest of the campaign. I do not want us to be like how England treated a young Matthew Tait whereby he was essestially blamed for Engalnd losing and dropped from the squad entriely, ruining a young player for self preservation of the coach. Deccie fell on his sword in that regard (and just in case anyone think I am suggesting Jackson haad a bad campaign, I am not. he is a young player far from the finished article who was solid if unspectacular. Certainly not flawless in his perfromance, but then again, ROG missed four kicks to win a HC in 2000 and went on to be named player of competition after its first 15 seasons.

We have a small playing pool so we need to spend more time nurturing said talent than other countries do (read England, France & SA. And to a lesser extent the AB's) So Deccie could have put on the hindsight and self preservationary glasses and dropped Jackson for Madigan (or brought back ROG for that matter) but he didn't knowing that nothing less than French and Italian wins would have saved his job.

We'll look back very soon and realise just how much good Deccie did for Irish rugby right up until 2013. Not lamenting his departure so much as highlighting his role in developing a squad and a new team, something people here can be very begrudging to admit.

I don't think we will,I honestly believe that we'll look back very soon and realise just how poorly Deccie did for Irish rugby over the last 2 years.I don't forget that he coached the GS winning team or that he brought us to a pretty reasonable WC (by Irish standards) but I feel certain that if Joe Schmidt gets the job we'll be a team transformed.

Good points fly .... to be honest I've always felt O'Driscoll never really bothered his hole when he played for Leinster and saved himself for the big stuff.

I mean you don't get 120 odd cap by pushing yourself when you don't need to.

debaters1 wrote:No actually, your reaction elicited my question, not the other way around Guns

I reacted to some fairly idiotic comments. I take you agree with them. Its not a debate that I'm particularly interested in anyway so Im out. Have a nice weekend.

rodders wrote:Good points fly .... to be honest I've always felt O'Driscoll never really bothered his hole when he played for Leinster and saved himself for the big stuff.

I mean you don't get 120 odd cap by pushing yourself when you don't need to.

That actually reminds me hasn't RoG gone on record as saying he doesn't really care about Magners/Rabo games,how does that match up with the thinking that he could be more passionate about Munster than Ireland.

I'm not singling out RoG just using him as an example as he's the only one I can think of who has admitted to not really caring about the league.

rodders wrote:Good points fly .... to be honest I've always felt O'Driscoll never really bothered his hole when he played for Leinster and saved himself for the big stuff.

I mean you don't get 120 odd cap by pushing yourself when you don't need to.

Yeah, there is an argument for 'pacing'. A good player paces himself through a season and knows when to turn it on and ease it off to get maximum effort out of himself for a full season.

And that 'pacing' can add one of the components to the fact that sometimes players don't give absolutely everything in every International game. Pacing both in Provincial and International is pretty much a must, especially during sequences (6N/WC).

But I think it always needs some coaching input to control it as players doing it for themselves can again have a game misfiring as one guy tries to get through a game when he expects to be involved in a tougher game the following week...whilst a teamate (who isn't so secure about his continued involvement) wants to show the coach what he can do - and runs away from support like a mad dog

Well, to be fair Guns I stated twice above and now a 3rd time that i do not have or saw a problem with the work ethic or passion of any Irish player in the 6 Nations (or whatever game anyone wants to put forward for scrutiny) however, I as I said it was your incredulous reaction that some could dare to ask after the motivation of Leinster players that got me engaged as if it was appropriate once, the precedant is established and the asker can become the askee. That is all I said/questioned.

Asore, you could be right but please remember if Ireland's perfromances do improve, Deccie sides were not that far away from them (as evidenced by the results and manner of same over the past 2 season, 3rd AB test aside....) or if they do not improve as we hope, that you and others do not blame the previous regime either.

Is Schmidt a better coach than Deccie, almost certainly, but there is a huge difference in having a club side for 28-34 games a season and a National side for 10 or 11. Regardless of who gets the job I want, hope and expect an improvement in results and greater consistancy of permonace, as again we played some remarkable rugby over the past year, just not enough of it at times.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Too much generalisation going on as per usual. Generalised questions are very hard to answer honestly because truth very seldom applies to them.

Well yes I am generalising and am happy to do so because generally speaking most players see International rugby as the pinacle and if they don't they are the exception rather than the norm.

This talk of effort and passion is nonsense. Some of the most passionless and effortless displays I've seen have come lately from Munster, Ulster and Leinster, I've seen Irish teams tackle themselves to a standstill in the 6N but some of the same players concede 28 points to a woeful Wasps side playing for Leinster, Ulster and Munster players who stood toe to toe with the ABs get bullied off the park by Saracens and Glasgow.

It's a great story this province v country thing, a great money spinner for lazy, gormless journos and one eyed supporters, but when you stand back and anaylse the reality there is no evidence to suggest players try harder for their provinces than Ireland.

Thought this might be relevant:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irelands-old-splits-revealed-99793.html

Meanwhile, further light has also been shed on the frank exchange between the Irish players during a team camp at Enfield last December.

Full-back Rob Kearney questioned why Ireland did not display the same spirit as Munster, something a number of players cite as a key turning point for the squad.

Marcus Horan revealed: “We went out training that day (after the team meeting) and we were strolling back – myself and Donncha (O’Callaghan) and Rob.

“Donncha turned to Rob and said: ‘Look, man, great balls today.’ And I said: ‘Listen, I think you’ve solved a massive problem for this squad. It’s been festering for years and someone needed to say it.’

“It really struck a chord with me. It was something you would have expected from an older guy. But then again, an older guy probably wouldn’t have said it because he’s lived with it for so long.”

Kearney added: “It was taken positively and you do appreciate that. Fair play to the Munster lads – not one person had anything negative to say. It takes character to take that on board and channel it positively.”

And that Tommy Bowe boy! sure yer man is as slow as a cart horse until he gets tha chance to add to his international try tally!

I've always thought he ran 20% faster for Ireland than Ulster.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:That actually reminds me hasn't RoG gone on record as saying he doesn't really care about Magners/Rabo games,how does that match up with the thinking that he could be more passionate about Munster than Ireland.

I'm not singling out RoG just using him as an example as he's the only one I can think of who has admitted to not really caring about the league.

The Irish sporting mentality is very selective, in Munster most of all it seems. It's ok to be Poopie in the league all season if you can pull off two or three massive one-off performances in the Heineken Cup to win the thing or at least come close. The Heineken Cup suits us because of that 'we only turn up for big games' mentality. And no-one remembers the mediocre games champion sides have played over the years. Look at the team Munster have named for the Dragons game. They're targeting Clermont. But if Ireland are playing Scotland the week before France... we can't target the big game in the same way, because there are really very few small games.

Test rugby, you have to turn up for every game like it's a Final. Thats where we fall down. We occasionally bring out a big performance but we need to be targeting 100% in every game. It's not about peaking for 2 or 3 test matches a season. It's about being at peak level for all of them. And we just can't generate that consistency- is it any wonder when until recently the Pro12 was treated as a development tool and the provinces aim was to peak for just a few knockout games every year?

Thats why I think Anscombe has been a breath of fresh air for Ulster Rugby. He is never, ever happy. He was moaning after last week because we didn't score any more tries after the 44th minute. First thing he really said that caught my attention when he came in was Ulsters season last year was a failure because we finished sixth in the league even whilst we were still patting ourselves on the back for getting to the Heineken Cup final. For him, it's your best every time you take to the field and even that might not be good enough.

It remains to be seen if his ultra hard-ass approach will translate into actual success or just set the bar too high and end up frustrating players- if its even possible for his standards to be met over the course of a gruelling and long season, if its possible to want to be at 100% all of the time. But I do feel we need to get used to feeling like every game is a massive game week in week out at provincial level before we see the same consistency test level.

Thats only a new thing though Notch so not sure it can be put down to mentality.

Id say it has more to do with how we play and those tactics not being sustainable over a tournament rather than a mentality to only focus on bigger games.

It seems Ireland have become obsessed with outmuscling teams rather than out thinking them. Hard to sustain high levels of physicality over tournaments. Thats how I see it anyway.

Notch wrote:
The Irish sporting mentality is very selective, in Munster most of all it seems. It's ok to be Poopie in the league all season if you can pull off two or three massive one-off performances in the Heineken Cup to win the thing or at least come close. The Heineken Cup suits us because of that 'we only turn up for big games' mentality. And no-one remembers the mediocre games champion sides have played over the years. Look at the team Munster have named for the Dragons game. They're targeting Clermont. But if Ireland are playing Scotland the week before France... we can't target the big game in the same way, because there are really very few small games.

Test rugby, you have to turn up for every game like it's a Final. Thats where we fall down. We occasionally bring out a big performance but we need to be targeting 100% in every game. It's not about peaking for 2 or 3 test matches a season. It's about being at peak level for all of them. And we just can't generate that consistency- is it any wonder when until recently the Pro12 was treated as a development tool and the provinces aim was to peak for just a few knockout games every year?

Great comment, the give it a lash mentality is still there and I think its why we are gravitating towards SH coaches, ie coaches who were never infected with that mentality.

Notch wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:That actually reminds me hasn't RoG gone on record as saying he doesn't really care about Magners/Rabo games,how does that match up with the thinking that he could be more passionate about Munster than Ireland.

I'm not singling out RoG just using him as an example as he's the only one I can think of who has admitted to not really caring about the league.

The Irish sporting mentality is very selective, in Munster most of all it seems. It's ok to be Poopie in the league all season if you can pull off two or three massive one-off performances in the Heineken Cup to win the thing or at least come close. The Heineken Cup suits us because of that 'we only turn up for big games' mentality. And no-one remembers the mediocre games champion sides have played over the years. Look at the team Munster have named for the Dragons game. They're targeting Clermont. But if Ireland are playing Scotland the week before France... we can't target the big game in the same way, because there are really very few small games.

Test rugby, you have to turn up for every game like it's a Final. Thats where we fall down. We occasionally bring out a big performance but we need to be targeting 100% in every game. It's not about peaking for 2 or 3 test matches a season. It's about being at peak level for all of them. And we just can't generate that consistency- is it any wonder when until recently the Pro12 was treated as a development tool and the provinces aim was to peak for just a few knockout games every year?

Thats why I think Anscombe has been a breath of fresh air for Ulster Rugby. He is never, ever happy. He was moaning after last week because we didn't score any more tries after the 44th minute. First thing he really said that caught my attention when he came in was Ulsters season last year was a failure because we finished sixth in the league even whilst we were still patting ourselves on the back for getting to the Heineken Cup final. For him, it's your best every time you take to the field and even that might not be good enough.

It remains to be seen if his ultra hard-ass approach will translate into actual success or just set the bar too high and end up frustrating players- if its even possible for his standards to be met over the course of a gruelling and long season, if its possible to want to be at 100% all of the time. But I do feel we need to get used to feeling like every game is a massive game week in week out at provincial level before we see the same consistency test level.

Anscombe is a good example. But your post also demonstrates why I want Schmidt as Ireland coach. At Leinster he has very very rarely rested players in the Rabo to target the HC. Maybe once or twice before a HC semi final or what not. But by and large Schmidt tried and succeeded in creating a squad at Leinster that could compete all through the season in all competitions. He's the man for Ireland no doubt.

Kingshu wrote:Nah I don't think so really, I hope Munster win the H-cup now, just as much as I did 10 years ago. Hope Leinster pick up Almin, and hope Ulster win Pro 12.

If Ulster aren't going to win something, I hope Leinster, Munster or Connacht win it.

I think maybe because there isn't a stand out province at present it looks like more infighting, but its the same as normal we want our own province to win first and foremost, then the others. Just at present we're competing more against each other as all 3 make later stages of comps, so it seams that we're divided, whereas in the past only one would be left and it would appear we were all united behind it.

Love it.

BTW, the Irish have always been provincially Tribal. We have been for eons now. Just add provincial rugby and we have even more Tribal craic. As the inter-pro rivalry gets even more closely contested, it escalates it all nicely.

It's so healthy. The Jeff, Scots and Welsh should try it sometime. It fills stadiums with colour and passion.

For me, SIN E and DOD are essential. If they didn't exist, I wouldn't bother me orse on here. Both experts in the craft of winding up Ulster and Leinster fans.
Thank Allah I'm a Paddy. And a Leinsterman. The Gene Pool has been ever so kind to one. I mean, imagine being a Noordie or a Culchie? Must hurt.

To the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaHMG_SvUkw

Gibson wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Nah I don't think so really, I hope Munster win the H-cup now, just as much as I did 10 years ago. Hope Leinster pick up Almin, and hope Ulster win Pro 12.

If Ulster aren't going to win something, I hope Leinster, Munster or Connacht win it.

I think maybe because there isn't a stand out province at present it looks like more infighting, but its the same as normal we want our own province to win first and foremost, then the others. Just at present we're competing more against each other as all 3 make later stages of comps, so it seams that we're divided, whereas in the past only one would be left and it would appear we were all united behind it.

Love it.

BTW, the Irish have always been provincially Tribal. We have been for eons now. Just add provincial rugby and we have even more Tribal craic. As the inter-pro rivalry gets even more closely contested, it escalates it all nicely.

It's so healthy. The Jeff, Scots and Welsh should try it sometime. It fills stadiums with colour and passion.

For me, SIN E and DOD are essential. If they didn't exist, I wouldn't bother me orse on here. Both experts in the craft of winding up Ulster and Leinster fans.
Thank Allah I'm a Paddy. And a Leinsterman. The Gene Pool has been ever so kind to one. I mean, imagine being a Noordie or a Culchie? Must hurt.

To the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaHMG_SvUkw

Indeed, three trophies to be won and a nice carve up amongst Munster, Ulster & Leinster would be great. I'm jsut sorry we cannot do either of you any favours with our remaining games being against non play off competing teams. Enjoy the remainder of the season, I know I will!