Saracens vs Toulon

Saracens vs Toulon


The English league leaders backed by South African and English financial muscle vs the French team 2nd in the Top 14 backed by comic book financial muscle (Mourad Boudjellal).

3 of the English backers of Saracens are on the times rich list - Nigel Wray (230m), Nick Leslau (200m) Dominic Silvester (150m)

Anyone know the wealth of Mourad?

Head to heads to look out for:

Farrell vs Wilkinson - the obvious one.

Borthwick vs Kennedy - the lineout battle.

Tomkins vs Bastearaud - the ex rugby league offloading machine vs the ultimate french battering ram

Vunipola vs Hayman - daunting challenge for the young Englishman vs the experience of one of the best tightheads in the world.

Brown vs Lobbe - two of the best backrowers in the world will duel.

Shame Fraser is likely to miss out because S.Armitage vs him would have been really interesting.

I could go on and on.



Alain Rolland has been picked as officiating the game.

After his last match my feelings are mixed. Should have red carded a racing metro player in the HC group match he officiated after just 4 minutes but he penalised Racing Metro a lot after that.


Both sides lost their recent matches on the weekend but neither will be too fussed. Obviously both have eyes on this match.

C'mon Sarries, I really want to see you guys win this one. You have been really good in the HC thusfar and I think Clermont will be the only team with enough to beat you guys.

Some really interesting match ups here Beshocked and as you pointed out Brown vs. Lobbe will have my greatest interest. I reckon Brown will be Scotland's best chance at a Lions Test starter, and getting one over JMF Lobbe will go a long way to boosting his already excellent credentials.

A Sarries vs. Clermont Final would be a fantastic game.

After our loss in Toulon, my feeling was that Sarries should be able to win quite easily. My only real fear though is that Sarries are unlikely to get the penalties that tigers did at scrum time. Ayerza was folding Hayman every which way, while Sheridan and Jenkins also struggled.

Sarries really need to target the breakdown. Get Steffon isolated and he will ship penalties. gain quick turnover and move the ball fast and do not let their pack settle.

Finally really target their lineout.

Thanks ruggerradge. Got to take it one game at a time. I really hope we can get to the final then hopefully go from there.

Londontiger I agree. Sarries scrum is a bit of a weakness which Ulster made the most of. Fortunately it was pretty much every other aspect which we did really well at.

Sarries I am sure will do as you say because that's what they normally do! Target the breakdown and the lineout. It has been key to our success so far so I hope for more of the same.

I worry about missing Fraser though because he's been excellent this season.

I watched the Toulon-Tigers game and was impressed by Tigers tenacity. I think the two needless sin bins were decisive plus losing Croft. You made them look beatable though.

Stop Toulon momentum like we have been doing to other sides like Ulster and Quins is key too. Do that and I think we will win.

Sarries played Alain Rolland really well vs Racing Metro to win a hatful of penalties for Farrell to kick. Hoping for more of the same.

These are probably my two least favorite teams in the Hcup. Both teams are quite similar and both paly fairly horrible rugby IMO. Wish they could both lose but given that Mark McCall works for Sarries and they are the lesser of two evils Ill plump for them.

Expect a Wilko v WilkoV2 snooze fest.

Real shame we won't get to see Fraser vs. Steffon. Wanted to see that so much.

Hoping that Saracens come through this and reach the final. Tomkins vs. Bastareud is intriguing!

Can't see past a Sarries win here.

Gunsgerms which Irish team do you support because surely if you are an Ulster or Munster fan you can't call Sarries boring?

Plus recently Saracens have been scoring more tries.

Thanks bluestonevedder. Indeed especially with Tomkins notching up two tries on the weekend. He is showing good form.

rodders I love your optimism. I wish I shared it.

Toulon certainly lost a bit of form since the start of the season. they struggled against Clermont 2nd team 2 weeks ago and lost away to grenoble last weekend. they dont look as dominant as they used to so this game against saracens looks quite even. Plenty of experience though , dont expect them to give away as many penalties as racing and its not like Twickenham will be something new for most of their players.

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms which Irish team do you support because surely if you are an Ulster or Munster fan you can't call Sarries boring?

Plus recently Saracens have been scoring more tries.

Thanks bluestonevedder. Indeed especially with Tomkins notching up two tries on the weekend. He is showing good form.

rodders I love your optimism. I wish I shared it.

Leinster. Saracens are less boring than Toulon thats for sure. Cant stand Ashton and now Farrell too so that doesnt help. Both really irritating characters.

I want Saracens to win this despite knocking Ulster out. I want this Toulon bucket loads of money juggernaut stopped in its tracks.

GunsGerms that's fair enough then.

I discount the loss to grenoble for Toulon - look at their team.

whocares yes Toulon have the experience but some creaky bones too.

I don't expect them to give away as many penalties as Racing Metro but I don't expect the Saracens defence to be as shoddy.

Thanks artful dodger. I would have supported Ulster too. I like you guys. Your fans at Twickenham were good sports.

Is Brits fit?
Vunipola or Gill?
Who partners Borthwick.
Saull or Burger at 7 - or maybe Brown with Wray or Kruis at 6?
Wiggy or Kocky?
Hodgson or Farrell?


Decisions, decisions.

GunsGerms wrote:These are probably my two least favorite teams in the Hcup. Both teams are quite similar and both paly fairly horrible rugby IMO. Wish they could both lose but given that Mark McCall works for Sarries and they are the lesser of two evils Ill plump for them.

Expect a Wilko v WilkoV2 snooze fest.

Not a Sarries fan but they have played some fantastic rugby this season. Hope to see more of the same at the weekend, could prove a few doubters wrong.

LondonTiger wrote:Is Brits fit?
Vunipola or Gill?
Who partners Borthwick.
Saull or Burger at 7 - or maybe Brown with Wray or Kruis at 6?
Wiggy or Kocky?
Hodgson or Farrell?


Decisions, decisions.

I think this is what will happen.

Brits will start if fit, if not then Smit will start with George on the bench.

Vunipola will start at loosehead with Gill on the bench.

Hargreaves will partner Borthwick with Botha on the bench.

Kruis will start at 6 with Brown at 7, Joubert at 8. Reason I think this is that Kruis played 6 when we beat Munster. Gives us a bit more weight and power in the scrum but also adds another lineout jumper. Brown has shown he is an international class 7 so can do a job there.

Wray on the bench.

Wigglesworth will start with Farrell. De Kock if fit will be on the bench. If not then Spencer. Hodgson on the bench.

Have to give a bit of credit to my fellow Sarries fans on the saracens rugby network for my thoughts on this.


My predicted team:

15.Goode
14.Ashton
13.Tomkins
12.Barritt
11.Strettle
10.Farrell
9.Wigglesworth
8.Joubert
7.Brown
6.Kruis
5.Hargreaves
4.Borthwick
3.Stevens
2.Brits/Smit
1.Vunipola

16.Gill
17.Nieto/Du Plessis
18.Smit/George
19.Botha
20.Wray
21.De Kock/Spencer
22.Hodgson
23.Wyles

Englishreign glad you think that.

This looks like a classic boring kicking contest, I watched the last Tigers game against Toulon, it was dire and the Tigers try to play rugby, I won't bother to watch this game.

http://www.times-series.co.uk/sport/10371915.Blow_for_Saracens_as_Fraser_ruled_out_of_Toulon_semi/?ref=ar

Fraser to definitely miss the match. I am gutted about that. Hopefully he's not out for too long.

Isolate Kennedy at the lineout and his game falls apart. He is the weak link in the Toulon pack.

Come on Sarries, you might just have the backrow and pack to win this one and Tigers showed that Toulon are in no way invincible and this is at Twickers. You can do this

glamorganalun wrote:This looks like a classic boring kicking contest, I watched the last Tigers game against Toulon, it was dire and the Tigers try to play rugby, I won't bother to watch this game.

Trust me, Sarries play some rugby now days if it is the right way to win

Which team is Man City and which Chelsea?

Need Sarries to win the HC, if for no other reason than to allow Edinburgh the small consolation of being completely hammered twice by the eventual champions....

Real shame about Fraser, but Brown had the whole 6 Nations at 7 and knows what he's doing in that role.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Need Sarries to win the HC, if for no other reason than to allow Edinburgh the small consolation of being completely hammered twice by the eventual champions....

Real shame about Fraser, but Brown had the whole 6 Nations at 7 and knows what he's doing in that role.

both points I completely agree on. In support of your second comment, Brown not only knows what he is doing he put in a succession of stellar performances at 7 despite being way out of his comfort zone. Top turnover count in the 6N and only 1 tackle behind the top tackler (Wood). He'll do just fine at 7.

I think that Sarries can take them - then I think on the type of team that Toulon could play -

Sheridan/Gethin Jenkins
Bruno
Hayman
Bakkies Botha
Simon Shaw/Nick Kennedy
Chris Masoe
Steff Armitage
JMF Lobbe/Van Niekerk
Tillous-Borde/Michalak
Wilko
Palisson
Giteau
Bastareaud
David Smith/Luke Rooney
Delon Armitage

propdavid_london wrote:I think that Sarries can take them - then I think on the type of team that Toulon could play -

Sheridan/Gethin Jenkins
Bruno
Hayman
Bakkies Botha
Simon Shaw/Nick Kennedy
Chris Masoe
Steff Armitage
JMF Lobbe/Van Niekerk
Tillous-Borde/Michalak
Wilko
Palisson
Giteau
Bastareaud
David Smith/Luke Rooney
Delon Armitage

against us the entire front row (jncluding replacements) were comfortably second best. Kennedy was anonymous, Lobbe looked slow and Armitage was shipping penalties like they were going out of fashion. In the pack only Botha and Masoe put in performances that were decent.

Other than the Basteraud bash, they offered little behind the scrum either, primarily due to Wilkinson standing in a different post code to Tillous-Borde.

Toulon are flat track bullies. If they get on top they can destroy teams. stand up to them and they are a shadow of that.

LondonTiger wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:I think that Sarries can take them - then I think on the type of team that Toulon could play -

Sheridan/Gethin Jenkins
Bruno
Hayman
Bakkies Botha
Simon Shaw/Nick Kennedy
Chris Masoe
Steff Armitage
JMF Lobbe/Van Niekerk
Tillous-Borde/Michalak
Wilko
Palisson
Giteau
Bastareaud
David Smith/Luke Rooney
Delon Armitage

against us the entire front row (jncluding replacements) were comfortably second best. Kennedy was anonymous, Lobbe looked slow and Armitage was shipping penalties like they were going out of fashion. In the pack only Botha and Masoe put in performances that were decent.

Other than the Basteraud bash, they offered little behind the scrum either, primarily due to Wilkinson standing in a different post code to Tillous-Borde.

Toulon are flat track bullies. If they get on top they can destroy teams. stand up to them and they are a shadow of that.

No offense and I agree with much of what you say, but the fact is that despite all of the above, you still lost

The point of which is that Toulon must be doing something right and they are still bloody hard to beat

I think Saracens are going to struggle come scrum time. Against Ulster they won through dominating the breakdown and having a smarter game plan with the possession they had. But in the scrum Saracens really creaked against Ulster, Toulon's pack is at least on a par with Ulster's at the scrum and might even be stronger.

Same for any team really - give them front foot ball and they stand the greatest chance of victory.

Like others have said - Sarries will struggle at scrum time. Stevens especially is a penalty machine.
Gill in my mind is a much better scrummager along with Nieto.
Start Nieto, Smit, Gill and they will be solid.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I think Saracens are going to struggle come scrum time. Against Ulster they won through dominating the breakdown and having a smarter game plan with the possession they had. But in the scrum Saracens really creaked against Ulster, Toulon's pack is at least on a par with Ulster's at the scrum and might even be stronger.

Scrum has been Toulon main weakness in the last 2 games. In the last one their 2nd choice props got penalised 9 times and got 2 yellow cards! I fear for them if Hayman doesnt last 80 minutes.
Apparently they will start Rossouw at 8 and masoe + lobbe as flankers (armitage on the bench) in a bid to add some power to their set piece.

ChequeredJersey wrote:No offense and I agree with much of what you say, but the fact is that despite all of the above, you still lost

Indeed we did, and in the end (no offence intended, honest ) the record books do not show how hard you actually fought in your 1/4 final, just whether you won or lost.

What I should have also mentioned is that toulon are much stronger at home, and Saracens are a better team than us.

I just get a little tired of people throwing up the Toulon team and going ooooh look how good they are, we cannot compete. That is total garbage but if a team even starts to listen to that stuff - well they have lost before the step on the pitch (look at Sale and Cardiff on their visits to Toulon - pitiful). Saracens can easily do to toulon what Montpelier did in Round 6.

PS anyone seen the stories about the expected attendance?

It would seem that ERC decided to set the minimum ticket price at £35 - and as such less than 20k tickets have been sold. Totally counterproductive - surely they want to see matches like this watched by a decent crowd?

LondonTiger wrote:PS anyone seen the stories about the expected attendance?

It would seem that ERC decided to set the minimum ticket price at £35 - and as such less than 20k tickets have been sold. Totally counterproductive - surely they want to see matches like this watched by a decent crowd?

Just reading the articles now. Not a good look for a competition to have a semi-final held in a stadium which is under a third full.

LondonTiger wrote:PS anyone seen the stories about the expected attendance?

It would seem that ERC decided to set the minimum ticket price at £35 - and as such less than 20k tickets have been sold. Totally counterproductive - surely they want to see matches like this watched by a decent crowd?

ESPN covering the same story:

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

To add to the embarrassment of such a showcase match being played against a backdrop of banks of empty seats, the annual Army v Navy match this Saturday has advance sales of 71,000.

Slightly unfair comparison in my view, given the tribal nature of the Army/Navy game, but still.

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:No offense and I agree with much of what you say, but the fact is that despite all of the above, you still lost

Indeed we did, and in the end (no offence intended, honest ) the record books do not show how hard you actually fought in your 1/4 final, just whether you won or lost.

What I should have also mentioned is that toulon are much stronger at home, and Saracens are a better team than us.

I just get a little tired of people throwing up the Toulon team and going ooooh look how good they are, we cannot compete. That is total garbage but if a team even starts to listen to that stuff - well they have lost before the step on the pitch (look at Sale and Cardiff on their visits to Toulon - pitiful). Saracens can easily do to toulon what Montpelier did in Round 6.

True. Sarries are not going to go into that match with a losing mentality. They will win whatever way they have to. And I mean that as a compliment

mawhis wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:PS anyone seen the stories about the expected attendance?

It would seem that ERC decided to set the minimum ticket price at £35 - and as such less than 20k tickets have been sold. Totally counterproductive - surely they want to see matches like this watched by a decent crowd?

ESPN covering the same story:

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

To add to the embarrassment of such a showcase match being played against a backdrop of banks of empty seats, the annual Army v Navy match this Saturday has advance sales of 71,000.

Slightly unfair comparison in my view, given the tribal nature of the Army/Navy game, but still.

I don't think it is an unfair comparison. It is embarrassing. It's not as if Saracens and Toulon are made up of unknown players.

You would think that on his own Sir Jonny would be a big draw.

The ERC have really botched this up.

Toulon make one change to the starting XV that beat Leicester, with Danie Rossouw coming into the back row and Steffon Armitage dropping to the bench:

15. Delon Armitage, 14. Rudi Wulf, 13. Mathieu Bastareaud, 12. Matt Giteau, 11. Alexis Palisson, 10. Jonny Wilkinson, 9. Sébastien Tillous-Borde, 1. Andrew Sheridan, 2. Sebastien Bruno, 3. Carl Hayman, 4. Bakkies Botha, 5. Nick Kennedy, 6. DANIE ROSSOUW, 7. Juan Fernandez Lobbe, 8. Chris Masoe,
16. Jean-Charles Orioli, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Davit Kubriashvili, 19. Joe van Niekerk, 20. Steffon Armitage, 21. Maxime Mermoz, 22. Frederic Michalak, 23. Jocelino Suta

15 Alex Goode
14 Chris Ashton
13 Joel Tomkins
12 Brad Barritt
11 David Strettle
10 Owen Farrell
9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Alistair Hargreaves
6 Jackson Wray
7 Kelly Brown
8 Ernst Joubert

16 John Smit
17 Rhys Gill
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Mouritz Botha
20 George Kruis
21 Neil de Kock
22 Charlie Hodgson
23 Chris Wyles

LondonTiger wrote:Is Brits fit?
Vunipola or Gill?
Who partners Borthwick.
Saull or Burger at 7 - or maybe Brown with Wray or Kruis at 6?
Wiggy or Kocky?
Hodgson or Farrell?


Decisions, decisions.

The answers seem to be:
Yes.
vunipola
Brown and Wray
Wiggy
Farrell

Hargreaves in over Kruis and Botha? Big call that, although huge impact coming off the bench for Sarries.

What a game this is!

I have an inkling that Sarries will take this. Strong bench, as strong as Toulon's even

beshocked wrote:

mawhis wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:PS anyone seen the stories about the expected attendance?

It would seem that ERC decided to set the minimum ticket price at £35 - and as such less than 20k tickets have been sold. Totally counterproductive - surely they want to see matches like this watched by a decent crowd?

ESPN covering the same story:

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/181230.html

To add to the embarrassment of such a showcase match being played against a backdrop of banks of empty seats, the annual Army v Navy match this Saturday has advance sales of 71,000.

Slightly unfair comparison in my view, given the tribal nature of the Army/Navy game, but still.

I don't think it is an unfair comparison. It is embarrassing. It's not as if Saracens and Toulon are made up of unknown players.

You would think that on his own Sir Jonny would be a big draw.

The ERC have really botched this up.

Hmmm.

Who actually nominated the venue?

And why in the past has the stadium been highly attended?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctsWdUaHsHM

ChequeredJersey wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:This looks like a classic boring kicking contest, I watched the last Tigers game against Toulon, it was dire and the Tigers try to play rugby, I won't bother to watch this game.

Trust me, Sarries play some rugby now days if it is the right way to win

Looking at the recent posts that the crowd expected is going to be poor adds some justification to my thoughts.

I won't be watching I am away this weekend, enjoy the game of penalties.

greytiger wrote:Hmmm.

Who actually nominated the venue?

Sarries provided a list of stadiums they wanted to play at, ERC decided the venue. Sarries wanted it close to London (understandably), specifically wanted Wembley but it was not free.

difficult to see where else they could have played. rules state that minimum capacity for a semi ground is 20k. It has to be a neutral venue in england. Vicarage rd was ruled out as not being neutral - any other available ground becomes rather a long way from London.

And why in the past has the stadium been highly attended?

Mainly because the price of tickets was kept reasonable - so "neutrals" could go for minimum expenditure. ERC have set the minimum ticket price at £35 so only fans will go.

Stadia not in use:
Stoop
Adams Park
Kassam
Reading
West Ham
White Hart Lane
Crystal Palace
Charlton
MK Dons
Barnet

playing Sunday Arsenal, Chelsea

Allianz

GT,

Firstly many of those are not 20k capacity (ERC rules). White Hart Lane does not have a big enough playing enclosure and along with West Ham a board who have no interest in hosting a rugby match.

There are places they could have gone instead - but twickenham is a rugby stadium and would have been fine if they had been sensible with ticket prices.

Watford?

greytiger wrote:Watford?

As I said above, ERC did not view Vicarage Rd as being "neutral"

LondonTiger wrote:

greytiger wrote:Watford?

As I said above, ERC did not view Vicarage Rd as being "neutral"

having lived and worked there, watford is anything but neutral for the average frenchman

It's a HC semi-final...
A virtual England V France game. Surely that should get 'rugby fans' into the stadium for a big day out? Surely it isn't about price and more about proof of a lethargic interest in anything (both sides perhaps) that isn't League.