Saracens vs Toulon

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Saracens vs Toulon


The English league leaders backed by South African and English financial muscle vs the French team 2nd in the Top 14 backed by comic book financial muscle (Mourad Boudjellal).

3 of the English backers of Saracens are on the times rich list - Nigel Wray (230m), Nick Leslau (200m) Dominic Silvester (150m)

Anyone know the wealth of Mourad?

Head to heads to look out for:

Farrell vs Wilkinson - the obvious one.

Borthwick vs Kennedy - the lineout battle.

Tomkins vs Bastearaud - the ex rugby league offloading machine vs the ultimate french battering ram

Vunipola vs Hayman - daunting challenge for the young Englishman vs the experience of one of the best tightheads in the world.

Brown vs Lobbe - two of the best backrowers in the world will duel.

Shame Fraser is likely to miss out because S.Armitage vs him would have been really interesting.

I could go on and on.



Alain Rolland has been picked as officiating the game.

After his last match my feelings are mixed. Should have red carded a racing metro player in the HC group match he officiated after just 4 minutes but he penalised Racing Metro a lot after that.


Both sides lost their recent matches on the weekend but neither will be too fussed. Obviously both have eyes on this match.

I suppose Toulon will prove me wrong...but from this weekend's performances, Clermont will be thinking maybe they're lucky enough to have played their final before what will now be a tough 'semi'?

Maybe it's a phoney war and Toulon will take it clean from an unsuspecting Clermont, but not on today's evidence.

Fly, I bet you sny money Clermont will play the same way as Toulon. It will be two teams completely afraid of losing. Its the way french finals work now.

Look at the Top14 play offs last year. 0 tries scored. The Amlin final last year was even worse than that game.

So a game of chess in Dublin?

Let's hope nobody tries to look up some try scoring moves on a computer, in the toilets, at half time!!! That could get bloody.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Sexton looked almost back to his best yesterday. Yes, he kicked 5 from 6, but his team also scored 5 tries, one scored by him most of the others involving him.

I feel depressed about the future of European rugby when I watch Toulon play.

With Halfpenny a likely starter too no need to worry about Sexton's goal kicking

SecretFly wrote:So a game of chess in Dublin?

Let's hope nobody tries to look up some try scoring moves on a computer, in the toilets, at half time!!! That could get bloody.

Clermont have plenty of ability to score tries.

maestegmafia wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So a game of chess in Dublin?

Let's hope nobody tries to look up some try scoring moves on a computer, in the toilets, at half time!!! That could get bloody.

Clermont have plenty of ability to score tries.

I get that, maesteg. That was just a little skit on an episode in Ireland recently where an adult chess player kicked down a toilet door and dragged a 16 year old opponent before the organisers of a competition because the kid was getting all his chess moves from an ipad. He'd go off the the toilet whenever he needed to make his move.

I think Saracens would have scared Clermont more than Toulon- we saw in the second half yesterday what can happen when you slow down their ball and get the defence right. I think Saracens could have frustrated Clermont.

Toulon are a more familiar foe.

I thought Saracens were giving Toulon enough ball to play with but Toulon were less than willing to use it effectively. The superb drop kick from Wilkinson (and it was) was ball used in one way to get points when it could just as easily have been kept to exert even more pressure.

Had that been Clermont facing Saracens I think they would have asked many more real questions of the defence.

Ah well, only my opinion though.

Was out with my kids and did not see the match. Disappointed that Saracens lost so easily.

That Farrell guy is no very good. Disaster(and nepotism) if he goes to Aus tbh

Only saw the first 15 minutes, doesn't look like I missed much from the score sheet.

wales606 wrote:Only saw the first 15 minutes, doesn't look like I missed much from the score sheet.

it was a four game.

Gatland is off seen enough Farrell should stay at home

maestegmafia wrote:

wales606 wrote:Only saw the first 15 minutes, doesn't look like I missed much from the score sheet.

it was a four game.

Four game?

Was Farrell particularly bad?

Farrell was failry poor - blew a good scoring chance with a forward pass, a stupid panicked chip to no where on another occasion - looked poor.

Shockingly poor. Didn't expect such a gutless effort from my side. Lost my appetite for rugby after that shambles.

Don't mind losing but in that manner......

Wilkinson kicked his points thats it!! just like O'Gara and every other flyhalf up and down the country this weekend!
Beyond that he did nothing to realistically offer Lions credentials,no matter how much Barnes and Miles fawned over him in the commentary box.

I personally have serious reservations over Sexton he is good but beyond that loop pass he does ALL the time he offers no more than Dan Biggar.

They just got the tactics wrong Beshocked. They took the contact in the wrong areas of the field and against the wrong areas of the opposition defence. Had Hodgson started I think they would have won that. He brought the experience to play territory and the confidence to play flat, had Sarries not been chasing the game when he came on the silly offloads would not have been made and more damage done to Toulon.

Another tough lesson for Sarries but they learnt from last year and improved.

viewtothegym wrote:Wilkinson kicked his points thats it!! just like O'Gara and every other flyhalf up and down the country this weekend!
Beyond that he did nothing to realistically offer Lions credentials,no matter how much Barnes and Miles fawned over him in the commentary box.

I personally have serious reservations over Sexton he is good but beyond that loop pass he does ALL the time he offers no more than Dan Biggar.

You Sir, are essential reading.

The Stephen Jones/George Hook of V2.

Gibson wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Wilkinson kicked his points thats it!! just like O'Gara and every other flyhalf up and down the country this weekend!
Beyond that he did nothing to realistically offer Lions credentials,no matter how much Barnes and Miles fawned over him in the commentary box.

I personally have serious reservations over Sexton he is good but beyond that loop pass he does ALL the time he offers no more than Dan Biggar.

You Sir, are essential reading.

The Stephen Jones/George Hook of V2.

This is why we secretly read ALL his posts

So the snooze fest that is Toulon manages to navigate it's way through the qtres and the semi without troubling the try line.

Surely they can't go all the way with just JW's kicking?

I don't know what was worse, the lack of skill with the ball on display or the commentators OTT Wilkinson love in.

Terrible game to show off rugby to the masses,I hope Clermont smash Toulon or Toulon come out firing.

Sam I don't think it was that personally.

Saracens simply didn't do the basics right. Far too many basic errors. Key lineout lost etc. Gave away silly penalties. It was stodgy.

It was one of the worst displays I have seen from them in a long time.


Yappysnap I agree. It was pretty dire. Toulon offered even less in attack than Saracens.

I know it's fashionable to slate Toulon, but there are plenty of teams who offer a similar game-plan and don't get criticism. For a large part of the season they've also been playing incredible rugby with some fantastic team tries.

Yes, they have a massive pack. If they're taken on up front, they just batter their way through. Nowt wrong with that, if teams want to arm-wrestle them they've got themselves to blame.

Far too many people have taken a pop at them because apparently they're just an All-Star team with no cohesiveness and players only there for the buck. It's utter balls. No team with JW, Botha and the rest are going to approach the game in that way. They may have gone for the money but by all accounts there's a good togetherness and a closeness with the local working-class community.

Obviously we don't want money to turn rugby into football, but Toulon are a lightning rod for criticism based on this and I'm not sure it's entirely fair.

Hood83 I think Toulon do deserve the criticism they get. Only 4 Frenchman started vs Saracens. In the HC quarter final and semi they have scored zero tries. Reliance on the boot of Jonny.

They are a team of ageing mercenaries. Their job is to win trophies for Mourad. I think they can do that but it's not a model that people want to see replicated throughout Europe.

Saracens get criticised just as much as Toulon if not more despite having a decent academy. A healthy amount of English players in the XV. Oh and a smaller salary cap to work with.


I do think that some teams do escape criticism though. The likes of London Irish,Sale Sharks and Exeter who have a large contingent of foreigners in the AP.

Clermont seem to be idolised despite having as big a salary cap as Toulon and a massive amount of foreigners themselves.

19 in their squad. Yet Clermont are one of the most popular teams in Europe despite not being that dissimilar to Toulon.

Isn't this Toulon side a fairly new at playing together? Could this be a reason in there boring play, they haven't had time to gell and get a decent game plan together?

Having said that, there game plan can't be that bad, after all they are in the final.

Hood83 wrote:I know it's fashionable to slate Toulon, but there are plenty of teams who offer a similar game-plan and don't get criticism. For a large part of the season they've also been playing incredible rugby with some fantastic team tries.

Yes, they have a massive pack. If they're taken on up front, they just batter their way through. Nowt wrong with that, if teams want to arm-wrestle them they've got themselves to blame.

Far too many people have taken a pop at them because apparently they're just an All-Star team with no cohesiveness and players only there for the buck. It's utter balls. No team with JW, Botha and the rest are going to approach the game in that way. They may have gone for the money but by all accounts there's a good togetherness and a closeness with the local working-class community.

Obviously we don't want money to turn rugby into football, but Toulon are a lightning rod for criticism based on this and I'm not sure it's entirely fair.

Seen them twice this season and popped along for a training session. Both games full of tries, big noisy crowds (more than 40k or the recent Clermont game) and the players look like they really enjoy it. Not sure too much is going wrong?

beshocked wrote:Hood83 I think Toulon do deserve the criticism they get. Only 4 Frenchman started vs Saracens. In the HC quarter final and semi they have scored zero tries. Reliance on the boot of Jonny.

They are a team of ageing mercenaries. Their job is to win trophies for Mourad. I think they can do that but it's not a model that people want to see replicated throughout Europe.

Saracens get criticised just as much as Toulon if not more despite having a decent academy. A healthy amount of English players in the XV. Oh and a smaller salary cap to work with.


I do think that some teams do escape criticism though. The likes of London Irish,Sale Sharks and Exeter who have a large contingent of foreigners in the AP.

Clermont seem to be idolised despite having as big a salary cap as Toulon and a massive amount of foreigners themselves.

19 in their squad. Yet Clermont are one of the most popular teams in Europe despite not being that dissimilar to Toulon.

It's not too dissimilar a model to the one Saracens employ, no? Michael Lynagh et al weren't exactly in their prime when you guys lured them over with large sums of cash.

LI have had a productive academy over the years, some of its graduates were in the team that Toulon team, the problem has always been keeping them. We need non-EQ players to plug the gaps.

mawhis that was in 1998. I am talking about now. It is not similar to the model Saracens employ. Saracens have a healthy balance of youngsters,foreigners,English etc now.

Toulon in comparison have far too many foreigners. Most of them over 30.

Saracens also have a productive academy but it doesn't stop us getting criticised. Even the days of Lynagh we had good youngsters but they were taken off us. Just like is happening to LI now.

LI don't get criticised do they? LI do have a lot of foreign players. You can't deny it.

One smart thing Toulon have done is bring in Bernard LaPorte. He's a canny operator.

How did Vunipola play. According to reports he was very impressive.

He made a couple of good forays. One in particular (2nd half) made a big dent but the movement broke down shortly afterwards.

beshocked wrote:Hood83 I think Toulon do deserve the criticism they get. Only 4 Frenchman started vs Saracens. In the HC quarter final and semi they have scored zero tries. Reliance on the boot of Jonny.

They are a team of ageing mercenaries. Their job is to win trophies for Mourad. I think they can do that but it's not a model that people want to see replicated throughout Europe.

Saracens get criticised just as much as Toulon if not more despite having a decent academy. A healthy amount of English players in the XV. Oh and a smaller salary cap to work with.


I do think that some teams do escape criticism though. The likes of London Irish,Sale Sharks and Exeter who have a large contingent of foreigners in the AP.

Clermont seem to be idolised despite having as big a salary cap as Toulon and a massive amount of foreigners themselves.

19 in their squad. Yet Clermont are one of the most popular teams in Europe despite not being that dissimilar to Toulon.

Right on, beshocked.

Clermont try and score tries unlike Toulon though. And their key players ARE french, see their back row, their biggest (but by no means only) try threat Fofana, their play-maker Parra and 2/3 of their front row, one of their biggest weapons. They seem more like a French team with a large number of foreigners strengthening them rather than Toulon who are a pan-national mercenary army with some token Frenchmen who aside from Bastareud are not their "big name" players. And they play boring rugby. That is why I shall be supporting Clermont in the HEC final despite Toulon having 4 or 5 starting Englishmen

Toulon average 2.5 tries per game this season. Not surprising semi finals / finals are tight games. New Zealand scored only 4 tries in their last 3 games of the 2011 WC

Fair point

ChequeredJersey wrote:Clermont try and score tries unlike Toulon though. And their key players ARE french, see their back row, their biggest (but by no means only) try threat Fofana, their play-maker Parra and 2/3 of their front row, one of their biggest weapons. They seem more like a French team with a large number of foreigners strengthening them rather than Toulon who are a pan-national mercenary army with some token Frenchmen who aside from Bastareud are not their "big name" players. And they play boring rugby. That is why I shall be supporting Clermont in the HEC final despite Toulon having 4 or 5 starting Englishmen

Clermont 72 tries in Top 14. Toulon 63.

The Top 14 games I've seen Toulon play in this season are very different from the games I've seen in the HC. Much more expansive and the Clermont game the other week was almost like 7's

seanmichaels wrote:Toulon average 2.5 tries per game this season. Not surprising semi finals / finals are tight games. New Zealand scored only 4 tries in their last 3 games of the 2011 WC

Leinster scored five in their Amlin semi this year. And 4 in their HC final last year.

If you want to play club rugby like 6N rugby then yep, caution will take over when the chips are down. A shame though. Toulon and Saracens was a game neither side wanted to lose - when it would have been a spectacle for the English and French champions of a new European way has either of them or both of them really chosen to try and actually win it.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Hood83 I think Toulon do deserve the criticism they get. Only 4 Frenchman started vs Saracens. In the HC quarter final and semi they have scored zero tries. Reliance on the boot of Jonny.

They are a team of ageing mercenaries. Their job is to win trophies for Mourad. I think they can do that but it's not a model that people want to see replicated throughout Europe.

Saracens get criticised just as much as Toulon if not more despite having a decent academy. A healthy amount of English players in the XV. Oh and a smaller salary cap to work with.


I do think that some teams do escape criticism though. The likes of London Irish,Sale Sharks and Exeter who have a large contingent of foreigners in the AP.

Clermont seem to be idolised despite having as big a salary cap as Toulon and a massive amount of foreigners themselves.

19 in their squad. Yet Clermont are one of the most popular teams in Europe despite not being that dissimilar to Toulon.

Right on, beshocked.

The two reasons I love Clermont are very simple;

1) They have hands down the most passionate and amazing fans in Europe
2) The brand of rugby they play is incredibly attractive, the perfect combination of power and panache.

The biggest reason is number 1. But number 2 just tops it off. The inverse of all that gives you the reasons I dislike Saracens, respectfully. I don't care about non-homegrown players once you're talking about a non-irish side. I want to know if I go to an away trip in Europe there will be a good atmosphere in a sold-out ground, I'll meet some passionate like minded rugby fans and I'll see a good team put on a display.

Clermont, Toulouse, Leinster, Munster, Leicester, Northampton, Gloucster etc. all tick those boxes. Who cares what their wage bill is, or how many foreign players they have? All you really want is a good atmosphere, some good rugby and to mingle with people who share your passion for this wonderful sport. If Saracens could tick those boxes they would be well on their way to winning some hearts and minds in European rugby.

I would argue that the Toulon crowd are as passionate as the Clermont mob. Also Toulon really laid on a festival for the 1/4 final weekend. I know the Rugby Village set up so all matches could be enjoyed on giant screens with decent beer and good food was enjoyed by travelling Tigers.
Everyone I know who went said it was an amazing trip - wish I had been able to go.

GeordieFalcon wrote:How did Vunipola play. According to reports he was very impressive.

Some good, some bad

Made a barn storming run in the second half

Got stripped of the ball in a tackle

Scrum was a little bit creaking

LondonTiger wrote:I would argue that the Toulon crowd are as passionate as the Clermont mob. Also Toulon really laid on a festival for the 1/4 final weekend. I know the Rugby Village set up so all matches could be enjoyed on giant screens with decent beer and good food was enjoyed by travelling Tigers.
Everyone I know who went said it was an amazing trip - wish I had been able to go.

Oh yeah- I'd absolutely love to go to a Toulon game. Probably Toulon and Clermont are the two most enticing trips in Europe, Thomond Park still up there though. Just hope the fans travel in numbers too- I know Clermont will bring a lot of fans to Dublin, hopefully the rouge et noir are also represented.

Call me greedy but I'd also like some sides more closer to home (namely Irish ones...so call be Nationalistic as well then! ) having an roughly even chance of winning based on the kinds of player they can buy/keep/hold.

So I'm afraid I do care about skyrocketing budgets in France. No I wouldn't be satisified cheering on any particular French team over the next half decade in the absence of more home-centric sides. I want us to remain at the party not to be looking in at it through the windows.

I think high caps for French teams (certainly for the European bit - their domestic squads are their own business) is as big an obstacle to the notion of "meritocracy" in Europe as many English and French believe current Pro12 structures are.

SecretFly wrote:Call me greedy but I'd also like some sides more closer to home (namely Irish ones...so call be Nationalistic as well then! ) having an roughly even chance of winning based on the kinds of player they can buy/keep/hold.

So I'm afraid I do care about skyrocketing budgets in France. No I wouldn't be satisified cheering on any particular French team over the next half decade in the absence of more home-centric sides. I want us to remain at the party not to be looking in at it through the windows.

I think high caps for French teams (certainly for the European bit - their domestic squads are their own business) is as big an obstacle to the notion of "meritocracy" in Europe as many English and French believe current Pro12 structures are.

Its a much bigger obstacle to meritocracy and a challenge to the game globally, but like all bubbles... there will be a degree of boom and bust. French spending power will wax and wane. I'd be curious to see what happens if high-spending trends continue and french clubs become loaded with debt. I'd rather our more sustainable system than have the entire future of rugby in our country dependent on the backing of a few rich individuals and companies.

I don't think there's any indication we're not going to be able to stay at the party in the short-term future. Three Irish sides in the top seeds for next year. The French have built some disadvantages into their system- a long exhausting season, a perhaps less professional approach to strength and conditioning and the continuing neglect of developing basic skills in young homegrown players in their academies. Did you see the French U20s this year? Mon dieu, they were miles behind their peers from the Home Unions in terms of basics.

Relying on short term contracts for big name overseas players is also damaging. The best European teams have stalwart key players who have been there for years and the team is built around them (Clermont and Toulouse set a good example for this). Toulon look set to struggle for continuity in the long term.

Whilst French money may allow them to succeed a lot short term long term I think it actually could have a very detrimental effect on rugby in France.

I'm coming to this post late, but I must say I thought Sarries really blew that game. When Roussouw was yellow carded I thought Sarries would really squeeze Toulon, but quite the opposite happened. I think I lost count of the number of times Toulon were able to counter-ruck effectively, and in general Sarries were just a little too slow in every facet of the game.

Those passes from Farrell and Tomkins were really bad, and Hodgson made a huge difference coming on. I wonder whether the right selection would have been Hodgson at 10 with Farrell at 12 and Barritt at 13 (effectively marking Bastereud).

It's a shame, because Toulon were almost entirely without wit or invention, and rely completely on brute power and Wilkinson's boot. They needed to get Giteau and Wulf more involved I felt, and all too often they went for relentless contact. I thought Goode generally did a decent job running the ball back at them, and I don't see this as a big tactical victory for Toulon. Powerful side, but little in terms of flair or creativity.

This match was a real snooze fest as expected. No tries as expected. Bash bash bash. Kick at goal. Dreadful advertisement for the Hcup. Really hope Clermont hammer Toulon.

Notch wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I would argue that the Toulon crowd are as passionate as the Clermont mob. Also Toulon really laid on a festival for the 1/4 final weekend. I know the Rugby Village set up so all matches could be enjoyed on giant screens with decent beer and good food was enjoyed by travelling Tigers.
Everyone I know who went said it was an amazing trip - wish I had been able to go.

Oh yeah- I'd absolutely love to go to a Toulon game. Probably Toulon and Clermont are the two most enticing trips in Europe, Thomond Park still up there though. Just hope the fans travel in numbers too- I know Clermont will bring a lot of fans to Dublin, hopefully the rouge et noir are also represented.

Not an expert and slightly biased but I believe the Toulon crowd are regarded as the most passionate, vociferous, in France. There is a misconception that being located in the South of France, it is a wealthy city. The fact is that Toulon is a bit of a dive generally and the majority of people are working class. The rugby club is about the only thing that unites them.

The Clermont game that I went to at Stade Velodrome recently was unbelievable. Due to building work only 2 1/2 stands were open so the official attendance was 42,000. There is no way that was the case though. People were crammed in to every walkway / aisle in the place. I didn't even bother looking for my seat. The staggering thing was how drunk people were. For the majority of the first half there was a group of youngish guys fighting, the 'stewards' seemed relatively unconcerned.

absolute manure as expected yesterday.

save a few notable exceptions the level of invention and guile in Northern Hemisphere rugby is terrible both at international level and now at HC is at an all time low.

The 6 nations was dreadful and only the Welsh provided at least a bit of tempo and deserved the 6 nations title for their performance against England alone.

Clermont are alright to watch i guess and at least try and run over you at pace. Dont buy that they play sensational rugby though. Best of a bad bunch. I do like the Toulon and Clermont fans. Passionate extremely noisy and add a real dash of colour.

I fear for the Lions in Australia if they play in the now default Northern Hemisphere way.

GunsGerms wrote:This match was a real snooze fest as expected. No tries as expected. Bash bash bash. Kick at goal. Dreadful advertisement for the Hcup. Really hope Clermont hammer Toulon.

You predicted before the game it would be a boring match and I agreed and that is how how it turned out, this seems to be the teams are going. Does this game show there is a lack of talent in attack with two flyhalves that can't get the back lines moving and 6's playing as 7's. I believe the 6N lacked attacking intent/penetration England, Scotland and Ireland played the same way as Sarries, if their packs are matched by the other team they are stuffed, they have to rely on a lucky bounce, a forward pass try or an interception (look at the tries in the 6N).

The press are calling for Wilkinson to replace Farrell for the lions is a joke both were as bad/good as each other.

glamorganalun wrote:The press are calling for Wilkinson to replace Farrell for the lions is a joke both were as bad/good as each other.

I don't think that's right. Wilkinson had a much better game than Farrell yesterday. Whereas Wilkinson was solid, reliable yet unspectacular, Farrell wasn't even solid. His passing and kicking from hand were both substandard yesterday, and the less said about that silly sideways kick the better. He (and Sarries) just couldn't deal with the fact that they were being taken apart in the contact area, and they weren't able to change the direction of their game plan. In the final stages Sarries couldn't even execute the basics, and (Charlie Hodgson and Alex Goode apart) lost all composure.

It's a shame, because there was a point in the match where I thought Sarries might step up a gear, but Toulon weren't really asked any particularly tough questions. On the rare occassion when Sarries were able to get some momentum going, the execution out wide wasn't sharp enough, with Farrell and Tomkins particularly disappointing. If Farrell isn't on the plane, then I think it'll be because of this match. That would be harsh in my view, but I can see it happening.