2013 Lions Squad Announcement - Live updates & Discussion

First topic message reminder :

I'm at work with no access to TV/Radio for the big annoucement. I'd be gretful if some of my 606v2 brethern could provide updates as names are announced for the tour.

Please don't turn this into a debate about who should/shouldn't be on tour until after all the names are up, to keep the page clean for others to see the names of the sqaud.

Thanking you in advance

2103 British & Irish Lions Tour Sqaud:

Cian Healy
Tom Youngs
Richard Hibbard
Dylan Hartley
Dan Cole
Adam Jones
Matt Stevens
Mako Vunipola
Richie Gray
Alun Wyn Jones
Paul O’Connell
Geoff Parling
Tom Croft
Sean O’Brien
Justin Tipuric
Toby Faletau
Sam Warburton (C)
Ben Youngs
Mike Phillips
Owen Farrell
George North
Jamie Roberts
Brian O’Driscoll
Manu Tuilagi
Alex Cuthbert
Leigh Halfpenny
Conor Murray
Rob Kearney
Ian Evans
Gethin Jenkins
Dan Lydiate
Jamie Heaslip
Johnathan Sexton
Jonathan Davies
Tommy Bowe
Stuart Hogg
Sean Maitland

Wales: 15
England: 10
Ireland: 9
Scotland: 3

I can't wait for the competition in July to see who has most Egg on their face - Tiger, you're up there with many others at the moment

Biltong wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Getting very wound up today Linebreaker. Getting sweaty paws over this series?

No, no sweaty paws. What for?

Can't see anything in the Lions squad that would make the Wallabies' tails twitch either.

Agree, not even a nervous twitch from Deans either.

Ditto the Aussie media
http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/181780.html

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Getting very wound up today Linebreaker. Getting sweaty paws over this series?

No, no sweaty paws. What for?

Can't see anything in the Lions squad that would make the Wallabies' tails twitch either.

Agree, not even a nervous twitch from Deans either.

Ditto the Aussie media
http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/181780.html

Brilliant. Greg demonstrating that he knows sweet Felicity Alexander about NH rugby always warms the cockles of my heart.

George Carlin wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Getting very wound up today Linebreaker. Getting sweaty paws over this series?

No, no sweaty paws. What for?

Can't see anything in the Lions squad that would make the Wallabies' tails twitch either.

Agree, not even a nervous twitch from Deans either.

Ditto the Aussie media
http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/181780.html

Brilliant. Greg demonstrating that he knows sweet Felicity Alexander about NH rugby always warms the cockles of my heart.

I know. His overall rugby knowledge isn't great. Shame, as his prose usually makes the rubbish he says interesting reading. As opposed to Stephen Jones who's clueless and a lousy writer

Luckiest man to tour is Dan Lydiate.

Doesn't even need to play rugby for over a year to get picked. Gatland would have picked him regardless.

He got in ahead of the likes of Brown,Robshaw,Wood and even R.Jones because of Gatland.

The likes of Stevens,Farrell,Vunipola and Hartley have been hammered by the armchair pundits but at least they have been playing rugby.

Unfortunately 3 of them play for the most unfashionable club in Europe despite being actually quite strong. All three of them have had really poor seasons haven't they?


Farrell has had a really poor season - HC semi final,top of the AP currently, 2nd in the 6 nations, win vs the ABs. Truly dire.....

Vunipola has been equally poor in his first proper starting season for his club.

Stevens has also been in poor form hence continually picked.



If Stevens,Farrell,Vunipola were Welsh and played for a fashionable club like Cardiff,Leicester or Leinster I doubt they would get panned so badly.

Wow, Kiwi. Thanks for digging that one up.

The problem I see already for the Wallabies is one of perhaps becoming a little complacent and dare I say; cocky.
We (us Aussies) have been there and done that before. We are the best at tripping over ourselves at the wrong time. This must be eliminated. Error free stuff with zero tolerance is a must.

Sure, we can bang on about Wales not having much luck against Australia in recent encounters but it would be a grave mistake to believe this trend will continue in a Welsh dominated Lions line-up. Ffs... we have already used up our luck... about 4 times over.

So I believe the key for us will be to dig even deeper - akin to what Qld does in the other code with remarkable success. (NSW have lost every series... out of the last 8... by a point or 2 or 3,etc) Also, that little bit extra the Reds and Brumbies are able to muster - which the Tahs can't. This attitude will be crucial I believe. It's burned into our little antipodean minds if you will - we're obsessed by this approach to sport in general.

In view of this, it's imperative RD selects a backbone of Reds/Brumbies players in the 22.

Only a sprinkling of the others from NSW/Rebels/Force (our Scotland)

So: JOC, Robinson, Hooper, AAC, Folau, Timani, Higgs, Mafi, Kepu, Honey Badger, Palu, 'Madness' (if fit) and Beale... if well behaved.

Even about half of them shouldn't make the cut - we must stick with the winners (Qld/ACT) I say and build the match day sides around them... all fuelled by that 'never say die' Qld RL mentality. That's if we want to win and win well!
(I think this is what they are trying to emulate anyway... fingers crossed)

To be fair, the Ozzie team, imo, is possibly the weakest Ozzie side in recent memory. For whatever reason the green and gold team are not playing like they did and are capable of.

I would say the Lions have the best chance in decades of winning a series. It will come down to Gatland and who he picks on the day. His odd selections could be the undoing of the Lions the tour!

We're just happy there's so few Scots/Samoans in the squad I suppose.

and as for the 'I look weel hard'/Blue Steel that Warburton keeps gurning...

at least some players looked happy they had got picked in their official photos.

This week's v2 rugby podcast went over the Lions squad last night, click here for a listen:
http://v2journal.com/15/post/2013/04/the-breakdown-rugby-podcast-300413-lions-special.html?fb_action_ids=10151634357298524&fb_action_types=dragndropbuilderapp%3Ashare&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
(aka a Kiwi, an Englishman, a Welshman, an Irishman and a Scotsman went into a bar ...)

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Aussie backs are good but wouldn't be overly worried about them

9. Genia - Over rated. Put him under pressure and he will fold
10. His Quadeness. - Not international class.
11. Ioane - Aussie danger man.
12. Lealiifano - Uncapped and untested.
13. AAC - Good, steady but not going to set the world on fire.
14. Mafi - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.
15. Mogg - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.

Beale and O'Connor will start ahead of Mafi and Mogg. McCabe will start ahead Lealifano.

With the right game plan the Lions should have the measure of the Aussie backs.

No idea why anyone would be worried about Folau. Hope he starts. He doesn't even know the rules of union.

This is what happens when you play make belief.

Genia is the best half back in the world currently, Cooper is invery good form, Ioane is struggling a bit, there is no way Deans will play lealiifano, Mafi and Mogg in the same backline.

AAC may be average in your eyes, but he is in very, very good, nick.

Not saying AAC is average. He international quality. McCabe his probable partner is average enough. I prefer the Lions centres.

Genia has a good break and may marginally be the best in the business but he isn't nearly as good as some people think. Like I said a bit of pressure and he will crack.

Cooper will never be as good as Sexton. Would pick him any day of the week over Cooper.

The Aussie backs are in disarray. Ioane and Beale are the biggest threats but Ioane as you say if off form and Beale is a head case who may now not make the team.

Cooper is also a head case who isn't a team player on and off the field and seems more interested in causing trouble.

Lots of good up and coming Aussie backs but if they make their international debuts in a Lions series they had better be ready for a pounding.

If that's ypur opinion, fair enough. I think it's incredibly wrong. Also Aussie backs do pretty well on debut -

"In November 2008 Cooper make his international debut against Italy, coming off the bench to scoring the winning try in a 30–20 win.[7]"

"In 2008, during his Australian debut,[10] O'Connor scored three tries and helped Australia beat Italy 31–8.[8] In October 2009 O'Connor "took home the Emirates Western Force 2009 ‘Rookie of the Year’ award and was also named the Wallabies ‘Rookie of the Year’ at the 2009 John Eales Medal dinner."[8]"

"However, Ioane made his International debut on 3 June 2007, playing against Wales at Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane. He made a try saving tackle and scored a try.[2]"

tigertattie wrote:To be fair, the Ozzie team, imo, is possibly the weakest Ozzie side in recent memory. For whatever reason the green and gold team are not playing like they did and are capable of.

I would say the Lions have the best chance in decades of winning a series. It will come down to Gatland and who he picks on the day. His odd selections could be the undoing of the Lions the tour!

They haven't had anything like a full-strength fit team in yonks. I think you will be surprised at how they play come the Summer

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:This week's v2 rugby podcast went over the Lions squad last night, click here for a listen:
http://v2journal.com/15/post/2013/04/the-breakdown-rugby-podcast-300413-lions-special.html?fb_action_ids=10151634357298524&fb_action_types=dragndropbuilderapp%3Ashare&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
(aka a Kiwi, an Englishman, a Welshman, an Irishman and a Scotsman went into a bar ...)

Listened to all 3. Lots of food for thought there.

Kiwi, you came across clearly... so to Asbo, Ozzy and Stag (when he was there) but not much high fidelity from Glas' mike.

The sound seemed a bit muffled? Maybe it's just my ears not used to him talking but I think I got the gist of what he was saying.

ChequeredJersey wrote:If that's ypur opinion, fair enough. I think it's incredibly wrong. Also Aussie backs do pretty well on debut -

"In November 2008 Cooper make his international debut against Italy, coming off the bench to scoring the winning try in a 30–20 win.[7]"

"In 2008, during his Australian debut,[10] O'Connor scored three tries and helped Australia beat Italy 31–8.[8] In October 2009 O'Connor "took home the Emirates Western Force 2009 ‘Rookie of the Year’ award and was also named the Wallabies ‘Rookie of the Year’ at the 2009 John Eales Medal dinner."[8]"

"However, Ioane made his International debut on 3 June 2007, playing against Wales at Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane. He made a try saving tackle and scored a try.[2]"

Making your debut v Italy in 2008 when they were quite weak is much different to making your debut v the Lions. Its not uncommon for sides to hand out more debuts v weaker sides. Id be surprised if there are too many debuts v the Lions.

Interesting comments about the Aussie team - I think it's fairly obvious that Dingo now has a strength in depth across all backline positions that he simply didn't have even a year ago. This has been a standout season for young Australian players - especially in the Brumbies who have been playing beautifully and already claimed some big scalps. I don't agree that none of the S15 bolters will play and Deans will stick to his incumbents - I think if he sticks with McCabe or Barnes at 12/13 (for example), the Aussie press will give him a kick in the ladybits for being too conservative.

To continue this debate in detail, there's a marvellous long running thread that I would recommend, set up by one of the bravest and most handsome posters on these boards:
https://www.606v2.com/t42279-british-irish-lions-weekly-wallaby-watch

There is no real magic in that Lions squad - no guys that can create something from nothing.
Shane Williams/Jason Robinson/Austin Healy etc.

OK, perhaps Hogg or BOD... but the rest of our backs are all straight running power play guys.

We all know whats coming from this Lions team - the power up front and the power in the backs. But there is likely to be no plan B if it doesnt work out.

I would have felt a lot happier if there was a Zebo or a Wade in the squad.

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If that's ypur opinion, fair enough. I think it's incredibly wrong. Also Aussie backs do pretty well on debut -

"In November 2008 Cooper make his international debut against Italy, coming off the bench to scoring the winning try in a 30–20 win.[7]"

"In 2008, during his Australian debut,[10] O'Connor scored three tries and helped Australia beat Italy 31–8.[8] In October 2009 O'Connor "took home the Emirates Western Force 2009 ‘Rookie of the Year’ award and was also named the Wallabies ‘Rookie of the Year’ at the 2009 John Eales Medal dinner."[8]"

"However, Ioane made his International debut on 3 June 2007, playing against Wales at Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane. He made a try saving tackle and scored a try.[2]"

Making your debut v Italy in 2008 when they were quite weak is much different to making your debut v the Lions. Its not uncommon for sides to hand out more debuts v weaker sides. Id be surprised if there are too many debuts v the Lions.

Fair enough, I think we will see Leafiiano capped off the bench at least and he will start by the 3rd test, but I agree there won't be a huge number of debutantes. But there won't need to be

propdavid_london wrote:There is no real magic in that Lions squad - no guys that can create something from nothing.
Shane Williams/Jason Robinson/Austin Healy etc.

OK, perhaps Hogg or BOD... but the rest of our backs are all straight running power play guys.

We all know whats coming from this Lions team - the power up front and the power in the backs. But there is likely to be no plan B if it doesnt work out.

I would have felt a lot happier if there was a Zebo or a Wade in the squad.

Totally agree. As much as I'm disappointed with no Best, I'm particularly aggrieved by the selection of no real bolter in the squad be it Zebo, Madigan or Wade. This is compounded by the fact that it is Maitland who was chosen instead.

If a winger or fullback was to be injured I would assume Zebo will be called up so I would say his chances are still high enough. Robshaw will probably tour at some stage, and my fingers are crossed for Best.

Youngs and Hartley over Best may just be indicative of Bests Six nations form post Cardiff.

He didnt play his best. Many of us had touted him as a certain squad, some as a starter and a few renown pundits as a captain.

Youngs is still a relatively unknown entity that shows talent and Hartley has had a pretty poor season from most people's perspectives.

As well as Best I think Ken Owens has been unlucky to not make the squad too. A very dynamic player that invariably impresses.

what is wrong with Maitland being picked?

A proven prolific try scorer in the Super 14 (so against many of the players he will face as a lion)

He also covers 15

Maitland is class

There was an article in The Australian where Rowntree was quoted as saying that Maitland was chosen for a number of reasons, but his "defensive intelligence" in particular.

Remind me of an ex-girlfriend.

He is indeed Ruby. I really think that (if selected to start) Maitland will really shine on this tour. Dry conditions. Hard soil. Having BOD pass you the ball rather than poor old Lamont! We'll really get to see what Maitland can do!

Tattie - I can see all 3 Scots in the Test team

I'm not too sure Ruby. I think many see POC as being the 2nd row sure thing which means the others will be fighting it out. Grey could struggle with a couple of Welsh boys being in the frame.

Hogg and 1/2p are going to be fighting it out at 15 I think. The owrrying thing for Hogg is I think Gats see's him as 10 cover for midweek games. I can see Hogg therefore being on the bench for the test games.

Maitland has to go toe to toe with Cuthbert and North, again players who Gatland is familiar with and will be top of his list for excecuting his game plan.

George Carlin wrote:There was an article in The Australian where Rowntree was quoted as saying that Maitland was chosen for a number of reasons, but his "defensive intelligence" in particular.

Remind me of an ex-girlfriend.

Because she looked like Maitland?

tigertattie wrote:I'm not too sure Ruby. I think many see POC as being the 2nd row sure thing which means the others will be fighting it out. Grey could struggle with a couple of Welsh boys being in the frame.

Hogg and 1/2p are going to be fighting it out at 15 I think. The owrrying thing for Hogg is I think Gats see's him as 10 cover for midweek games. I can see Hogg therefore being on the bench for the test games.

Maitland has to go toe to toe with Cuthbert and North, again players who Gatland is familiar with and will be top of his list for excecuting his game plan.

There is plenty of competition for places in this squad, bar maybe halfback where there is far less. Farrell would have to rise to a level he has never previously attained to challenge Sexton, mike Phillips again stood head and shoulders above the other scrum halfs by the end of the tournament. Physically and metaphorically...!

Competition within the squad is a great thing. Hopefully it will challenge players to improve, to learn and to rise to the occasion.

maestegmafia wrote:
mike Phillips again stood head and shoulders above the other scrum halfs by the end of the tournament. Physically and metaphorically...!

He was utter knickers. He is a flanker/centre playing at 9. his service is epically slow. He crabs like sebastian in the little mermaid and his kicking is average at best.

Defensivly he is good. But as a 9 giving ball to a 10, he is pants!

tigertattie wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
mike Phillips again stood head and shoulders above the other scrum halfs by the end of the tournament. Physically and metaphorically...!

He was utter knickers. He is a flanker/centre playing at 9. his service is epically slow. He crabs like sebastian in the little mermaid and his kicking is average at best.

Defensivly he is good. But as a 9 giving ball to a 10, he is pants!

Sadly for the Lions Phillips is the best of a bad lot. Though on a horses for courses selection I'd have taken Care, Phillips & Laidlaw - Phillips is Will Genia's bunny (I was going to use another b-word there, but ever mindful of the swear filter ...), Care offers somethign different.
And I'd have taken Laidlaw as 9/10 cover, even though his option taking in the 6N could have been better. Having 2 fly-halves + Hogg, while taking 3 fullbacks + Maitland + Bowe really makes no sense

Maes,

Agree, I think Phillips looks more suited to combat the Aussie style of play. Just something about him - a sort of a swagger and confidence to take the ball to the gain line and actually create opportunities. He should do well here.

From what I've seen of Farrell - he just doesn't seem to be a complete player. What are his special qualities? Does he have an x-factor? Is he a real game breaker type player or your run-of-the-mill safe and conservative type fly half with a good boot?

Sexton gets great raps on these boards but he's still not really proven himself at international level. Sure, he can tear up Northampton or Montpellier but he's not in the superstar class, imo (except with the boot) and it would surprise me if he all of a sudden can grab a Lions match by the scruff and step up to a higher level. He certainly hasn't done much to be in awe of at international level. Apart from his kicking and in that first game against Wales - he's barely been noticeable. Too many question marks for me but I guess we'll see what he's really made of when put under more pressure against much stronger opposition.

Linebreaker wrote:Maes,

Agree, I think Phillips looks more suited to combat the Aussie style of play. Just something about him - a sort of a swagger and confidence to take the ball to the gain line and actually create opportunities. He should do well here.

From what I've seen of Farrell - he just doesn't seem to be a complete player. What are his special qualities? Does he have an x-factor? Is he a real game breaker type player or your run-of-the-mill safe and conservative type fly half with a good boot?

Sexton gets great raps on these boards but he's still not really proven himself at international level. Sure, he can tear up Northampton or Montpellier but he's not in the superstar class, imo (except with the boot) and it would surprise me if he all of a sudden can grab a Lions match by the scruff and step up to a higher level. He certainly hasn't done much to be in awe of at international level. Apart from his kicking and in that first game against Wales - he's barely been noticeable. Too many question marks for me but I guess we'll see what he's really made of when put under more pressure against much stronger opposition.

He has 36 caps for Ireland and the only team in international rugby he hasnt beaten at OH is New Zealand but came quite close to doing so once. What does he need to do to prove himself?

He is without doubt a better player than Cooper anyway.

Linebreaker wrote:

Sexton gets great raps on these boards but he's still not really proven himself at international level. Sure, he can tear up Northampton or Montpellier but he's not in the superstar class, imo (except with the boot) and it would surprise me if he all of a sudden can grab a Lions match by the scruff and step up to a higher level. He certainly hasn't done much to be in awe of at international level. Apart from his kicking and in that first game against Wales - he's barely been noticeable. Too many question marks for me but I guess we'll see what he's really made of when put under more pressure against much stronger opposition.

I'd say his boot is the least trustworthy part of his arsenal. He can have bad days with the boot. But to ask questions of him at International level knowing what Ireland have been like at International level in the past number of years, well it's like asking why any of the Irish players should be with the Lions. And maybe secretly that's what many people are asking, given Ireland's run in the 6N.

The truth is though than Ireland have been in a bad place in the last number of years. Our tactics and gameplans have been based on negative defensive posturing and kicking away usable ball. Our coach who was responsible for tactics got the sack recently - we're in a let's-start-over mode. Many Irish players who have proven they can perform on other stages, haven't been doing so in an Ireland shirt.

Gatland is well aware of the underlying causes of Irish players underperforming in an Irish shirt (including Sexton) - it's why he still went ahead and picked nine of them anyway. He's saying he doesn't believe Ireland is a true reflection of Irish player ability in the last number of seasons.

France came in lower than Ireland in the 6N. I wouldn't expect New Zealand to be thinking they're going to have an easy time with them when they arrive for their three games. Sexton, if playing the right brand of attacking rugby, will hold his own whilst executing it.

That's the kind of answer I was after, Fly.
It probably sounded rude (my above comment) but several pundits here (Ella, Kafer & Kearns) seem to think he is overrated.

So it's a case of possibly more potential on the International scene and he's on the verge of doing something really special... i.e. my 'superstar class' comment could well be realised in this series.

I know France did quite poorly after they beat us (we must have spent their whole 6N chips) but I thought generally - they have the wood on Ireland, unlike Australia.

I've always believed NZ perhaps give France more credit... or what's the phrase?... have an oversensitivity or a peculiar fear of France (fair enough, given those critical games, including the 2011 RWC) but really... they shouldn't. Agree it will be a tough series for NZ even at home but it's so ironic they seem to get drawn in to France's game rather than kick on with their own - like that 1st half of the '99 match. It should have been shut the gate. It will haunt them for a little while longer no doubt.

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Maes,

Agree, I think Phillips looks more suited to combat the Aussie style of play. Just something about him - a sort of a swagger and confidence to take the ball to the gain line and actually create opportunities. He should do well here.

From what I've seen of Farrell - he just doesn't seem to be a complete player. What are his special qualities? Does he have an x-factor? Is he a real game breaker type player or your run-of-the-mill safe and conservative type fly half with a good boot?

Sexton gets great raps on these boards but he's still not really proven himself at international level. Sure, he can tear up Northampton or Montpellier but he's not in the superstar class, imo (except with the boot) and it would surprise me if he all of a sudden can grab a Lions match by the scruff and step up to a higher level. He certainly hasn't done much to be in awe of at international level. Apart from his kicking and in that first game against Wales - he's barely been noticeable. Too many question marks for me but I guess we'll see what he's really made of when put under more pressure against much stronger opposition.

He has 36 caps for Ireland and the only team in international rugby he hasnt beaten at OH is New Zealand but came quite close to doing so once. What does he need to do to prove himself?

He is without doubt a better player than Cooper anyway.

In your mind obviously. There are plenty of doubts actually.
Cooper's got a better instinct and capacity to turn games on their head. I haven't seen Sexton do this against the best sides too often. What did he do this last 6N?

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:There was an article in The Australian where Rowntree was quoted as saying that Maitland was chosen for a number of reasons, but his "defensive intelligence" in particular.

Remind me of an ex-girlfriend.

Because she looked like Maitland?

She wasn't as pretty as Sean if I'm being honest.

But boy, was she good at being defensive. Apparently women "need" more new shoes, Maes. Write that down. Need.

He was injured for the whole six nations except for the Ireland Wales match which Ireland won and the only match Wales lost. He was excellent in that match. It was also in Cardiff.

Cooper is quite capable of turning his own team on its own head too. He is too falky to ever make it as a top international OH. The fact that he has to defend the 15 channel and he cant kick goals is ridiculous.

One other thing worth throwing into this thread. We haven't talked about Ireland much.

By Ireland's recent standards, they had a surprisingly pants Six Nations - saved by arithmetic from the wooden stirring utensil. Despite this, they are contributing 9 players to the tour and have players holding (in many people's estimation) key test shirts at 1, 4, wherever they decide to play Sean O'Brien, 10 and 13.

In simple terms, is this a concern? How can we explain the disjoint between this and the 6N runners-up England potentially contributing fewer starters than they have for many years. Absolutely not a wum for my celtic brothers, it's a genuine question.

Can we put 6N form down to bad coaching? Do we need to see how the Rabo semi and finals play out before making a meaningful comment about how our Irish 9 are actually playing?

He's still a limited player by Australian standards, GG.
He didn't do much in the 60-0 match did he? Turn it up, mate. You are kidding yourself, without doubt.

George Carlin wrote:One other thing worth throwing into this thread. We haven't talked about Ireland much.

By Ireland's recent standards, they had a surprisingly pants Six Nations - saved by arithmetic from the wooden stirring utensil. Despite this, they are contributing 9 players to the tour and have players holding (in many people's estimation) key test shirts at 1, 4, wherever they decide to play Sean O'Brien, 10 and 13.

In simple terms, is this a concern? How can we explain the disjoint between this and the 6N runners-up England potentially contributing fewer starters than they have for many years. Absolutely not a wum for my celtic brothers, it's a genuine question.

Can we put 6N form down to bad coaching? Do we need to see how the Rabo semi and finals play out before making a meaningful comment about how our Irish 9 are actually playing?

Well...Leinster are still in the running for Pro12. They're still in the running for Amlin (the last British or Irish side in either of the two European competitions.) They're playing tasty powerful rugby with it (most especially including Heaslip, O'Brien and BOD). 6 of the Irish Lions are Leinster players. The evidence of playing well doesn't have to wait for a final as their finals will now be under the burden of being Lions players in waiting. Can we read accurately from here on in?

Our bad International coach has a record to prove it, George - it isn't talk, it isn't hearsay, it isn't long-winded excuses; and I for one never even blamed our outrageously long injury list (some of my countrymen did choose to use that) - no, the form dip for Ireland inc is much longer than this current 6N. Everyone who watches International rugby (certainly in NH) is well aware of this.

We imploded pretty much during the last WC, we imploded in the build-up games to the last WC, we have our once a year BIG game when we destroy an non-suspecting big target but mostly Ireland were predictable plodders playing a bad version of High physical run-through-or-at-rather-than-around SA syle rugby.

Like I said above, it was Gatland (Welsh coach) and a few more (English) coaches that chose the nine. There wasn't an Irish coach involved in any of it. The nine aren't there for politics and keeping the Irish quiet - Gatland isn't that kind of man (certainly not with us and our common fireworks history! ). He believes the Irish will play their part.

Linebreaker wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Maes,

Agree, I think Phillips looks more suited to combat the Aussie style of play. Just something about him - a sort of a swagger and confidence to take the ball to the gain line and actually create opportunities. He should do well here.

From what I've seen of Farrell - he just doesn't seem to be a complete player. What are his special qualities? Does he have an x-factor? Is he a real game breaker type player or your run-of-the-mill safe and conservative type fly half with a good boot?

Sexton gets great raps on these boards but he's still not really proven himself at international level. Sure, he can tear up Northampton or Montpellier but he's not in the superstar class, imo (except with the boot) and it would surprise me if he all of a sudden can grab a Lions match by the scruff and step up to a higher level. He certainly hasn't done much to be in awe of at international level. Apart from his kicking and in that first game against Wales - he's barely been noticeable. Too many question marks for me but I guess we'll see what he's really made of when put under more pressure against much stronger opposition.

He has 36 caps for Ireland and the only team in international rugby he hasnt beaten at OH is New Zealand but came quite close to doing so once. What does he need to do to prove himself?

He is without doubt a better player than Cooper anyway.

In your mind obviously. There are plenty of doubts actually.
Cooper's got a better instinct and capacity to turn games on their head. I haven't seen Sexton do this against the best sides too often. What did he do this last 6N?

There's things Cooper can do in a game that Sexton only dreams of. And vice versa

One thing I am fairly sure of, if Sexton isn't fit for the tests I'll be putting a fair amount of money on the Wallabies.

Linebreaker wrote:He's still a limited player by Australian standards, GG.

Yet Sexton is clearly better that Australia's favored option at 10? That doesnt make much sense.

Maybe out halves that cant tackle, cant kick and have attitude problems are held in high esteem in Australia but not sure they are anywhere else.

SecretFly wrote:

George Carlin wrote:One other thing worth throwing into this thread. We haven't talked about Ireland much.

By Ireland's recent standards, they had a surprisingly pants Six Nations - saved by arithmetic from the wooden stirring utensil. Despite this, they are contributing 9 players to the tour and have players holding (in many people's estimation) key test shirts at 1, 4, wherever they decide to play Sean O'Brien, 10 and 13.

In simple terms, is this a concern? How can we explain the disjoint between this and the 6N runners-up England potentially contributing fewer starters than they have for many years. Absolutely not a wum for my celtic brothers, it's a genuine question.

Can we put 6N form down to bad coaching? Do we need to see how the Rabo semi and finals play out before making a meaningful comment about how our Irish 9 are actually playing?

Well...Leinster are still in the running for Pro12. They're still in the running for Amlin (the last British or Irish side in either of the two European competitions.) They're playing tasty powerful rugby with it (most especially including Heaslip, O'Brien and BOD). 6 of the Irish Lions are Leinster players. The evidence of playing well doesn't have to wait for a final as their finals will now be under the burden of being Lions players in waiting. Can we read accurately from here on in?

Our bad International coach has a record to prove it, George - it isn't talk, it isn't hearsay, it isn't long-winded excuses; and I for one never even blamed our outrageously long injury list (some of my countrymen did choose to use that) - no, the form dip for Ireland inc is much longer than this current 6N. Everyone who watches International rugby (certainly in NH) is well aware of this.

We imploded pretty much during the last WC, we imploded in the build-up games to the last WC, we have our once a year BIG game when we destroy an non-suspecting big target but mostly Ireland were predictable plodders playing a bad version of High physical run-through-or-at-rather-than-around SA syle rugby.

Like I said above, it was Gatland (Welsh coach) and a few more (English) coaches that chose the nine. There wasn't an Irish coach involved in any of it. The nine aren't there for politics and keeping the Irish quiet - Gatland isn't that kind of man (certainly not with us and our common fireworks history! ). He believes the Irish will play their part.

All fair comment, Fly.

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:He's still a limited player by Australian standards, GG.

Yet Sexton is clearly better that Australia's favored option at 10? That doesnt make much sense.

Maybe out halves that cant tackle, cant kick and have attitude problems are held in high esteem in Australia but not sure they are anywhere else.

You still haven't explained his great defensive and kicking efforts in the 60-0 obliteration.

Cooper has been great in defence this year. At least he's got much better form where it counts.

Baa Baas named so far to go up against Lions in HK...

Those named tonight (6/5/2013): J Hook, P James, A Zanni, D Peel, S Manoa, J Hamilton & J Rokocko

Those previously named: Castro, Ghiraldini, Parisse, Fotuali'i, N Evans, Fourie, Harinordoquy, Tindall & R Varty

So what are we looking at, then?

Something like this looks decent:

1. Paul James (Wales)
2. Leonardo Ghiraldini (Italy)
3. Martin Castrogiovanni (Italy)
4. Jim Hamilton (God's Own Country )
5. Samu Manoa (USA)
6. Alessandro Zanni (Italy)
7. Imanol Harinordoquy (France)
8. Sergio Parisse (Italy)

9. Kahn Fotuali'i (Samoa)
10. Nick Evans (New Zealand)
11. Joe Rokocoko (New Zealand)
12. Mike Tindall (England)
13. Jaque Fourie (Seth Efrica)
14. Rowan Varty (Hong Kong)
15. James Hook (Wales)

Lovely moment for Varty. First Honkers player to get the call up, I think.