Another 4 years and another disapointment.

First topic message reminder :

I just want to get this off my chest now, if I do it now it means that come June I can back the Lions to the hilt as I always do.

It’s been nearly 20 years since we had more than a token 5 Lions Tourists. In fact the last time us Scots made up more than 20% of the touring party was coincidently the last time we won the series…. Just Sayin’

Last year plenty of Scots had been left behind, and rightly so in my opinion. We were pretty mince.

The next year though the first glimpses of what might have been began to emerge, Kelly Brown, Richie Gray, John Barclay, Jonnie Beattie, Ross Rennie and Dave Denton all gave hope that although we might be lacking in the backs we would be providing some very rare Scottish Beef for the Lions Pack. That belief didn’t really change when Gray, Brown, Beattie and Grant all had storming 6N and apart from Gray have all been performing well for Club and Country.

In the backs things looked rosy too. Hogg came out of nowhere last season and this season has been a potent attacking weapon for Glasgow and Scotland. In addition Maitland our next kilted Kiwi playing superbly for Scotland and Glasgow, his father will be very proud.

So it came to today, Lions selection. I had a hope, (at least a fool’s hope), that on merit we would have parity in terms of representation with Ireland, a country who really failed to impress in the 6N to such an extent that Kidney was shown the door. I personally would have been delighted if we had provided 6 guys my 6 : Beattie, Brown, Gray, Maitland, Hogg and Scott.

These 6 guys have all done more than enough for club and country to warrant selection for this tour but for reasons best known to Gatland, 3 of them have been overlooked. As for Gatland’s comment with regards to Hogg and the possibility of playing him at 10, I have never heard so much pish in my entire life. He is a full back and at a push a winger or an outside centre….

The guys unlucky to miss out :

Brown….. Poor old Kelly. Where do I even start? I’ll start by saying had Kelly Brown toured an no other Scott been picked, I would have been happier. Or had Brown been left out for Robshaw or Wood, I would have been desperately gutted but have fully understood. To be left out for a kid who has played a handful of games for a Pro12 side who have routinely been pumped this season was and is an absolute tragedy. Lydiate has done nothing this season to warrant inclusion above Brown, Robshaw or Wood. This is a titanic sized miscarriage of justice.

Beattie, is an easier omission to bear. Lets face facts Faleteu is the guy in possession of the test jersey for the no. 8 slot. However Heaslip had a terrible 6N and apparently scoring a brace of tries against Biaritz is enough to get picked for the Lions these days. Beattie has played consistently well for Montpellier and had an excellent 6N. I have no Idea why Heaslip has been selected, clearly his reputation preceeded him.

Ryan Grant can also be pretty miffed! The Toulon bench warmer of Gethin Jenkins gets to go whilst Grant doesn’t? Let’s just recap what happened a couple of weeks ago when Adam Jones came to Scotstoun… He had a really tough time from Grant who put in a tireless shift and scored a brace of tries and has been left out….

Finally the longest shot, Matt Scott. The 12 jersey wasn’t exactly exploding with Talent, and as a result his stock had risen. I can accept him being left behind.

Onto non Scottish related players…. Heartly in there instead of Best and Matt Stevens even being anywhere near the squad is an absolute joke.

RANT OVER!!!!!

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

RDW, my day has pretty much been spoiled by Scottish posters if truth be known. All I've heard is Scottish posters rubbishing welsh players. Go back over the myriad of posts and you'll see it everywhere.

When your day has been spoilt by people on a forum you must realise that you need to get off the computer, surely the purpose of a forum is to express your opinion about certain events, the Scotland team has been under-represented. Lydiate, who has barely played international rugby this season and has played a few dead rubbers for a sub-standard team, over Kelly Brown who was essential to Saracens and led his team to their best Six Nations finish for a number of years, Ryan Grant, who was a stand out player for Scotland this season and has been essential to his club team, behind Jenkins who's spent a year in the south of France sleeping in and eating out by the looks of things.

Sam Warburton as captain is a travesty, he isn't the best openside flanker in Wales, he didn't captain his side because it was affecting his form. On the other hand there's inspirational figures in the squad like O'Connell and O'Driscoll who've been overlooked. This is starting to look to me like a Welsh tour with a few add ons.

I'm not disputing that Wales should have the largest representation for the last two years you've had the best team in Europe but are fifteen of the top thirty-seven players in the home nations Welsh? I don't think so. I still want the Lions to do very well and I wish Warren Woodward and his squad the best and I hope you have a nicer day tomorrow.

Risca Rev wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

I think, to be fair Welsh and Scottish fans are both guilty of "putting the boot in". I think Scottish fans are guilty of talking their players up against Welsh ones more than others, when maybe they should be looking elsewhere. I can understand the Brown over Lydiate talk, but not ones like Grant over Jenkins, when I'd say Grant should be getting compared with Vunipola. We also get Laidlaw over Phillips, when it should maybe be over Murray and a few others.

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

No one is claiming Grant vs Jenkins. Its Grant vs Stevens/Vunipola. Neither is anyone saying Laidlaw over Phillips, its laidlaw over Murray. You seem to have seen one scot vs welsh comparison in Brown vs Lydiate and just automatically assumed that all the others are also at the expense of a welsh player, which is completely untrue in those cases.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I just want to get this off my chest now, if I do it now it means that come June I can back the Lions to the hilt as I always do.

It’s been nearly 20 years since we had more than a token 5 Lions Tourists. In fact the last time us Scots made up more than 20% of the touring party was coincidently the last time we won the series…. Just Sayin’

Last year plenty of Scots had been left behind, and rightly so in my opinion. We were pretty mince.

The next year though the first glimpses of what might have been began to emerge, Kelly Brown, Richie Gray, John Barclay, Jonnie Beattie, Ross Rennie and Dave Denton all gave hope that although we might be lacking in the backs we would be providing some very rare Scottish Beef for the Lions Pack. That belief didn’t really change when Gray, Brown, Beattie and Grant all had storming 6N and apart from Gray have all been performing well for Club and Country.

In the backs things looked rosy too. Hogg came out of nowhere last season and this season has been a potent attacking weapon for Glasgow and Scotland. In addition Maitland our next kilted Kiwi playing superbly for Scotland and Glasgow, his father will be very proud.

So it came to today, Lions selection. I had a hope, (at least a fool’s hope), that on merit we would have parity in terms of representation with Ireland, a country who really failed to impress in the 6N to such an extent that Kidney was shown the door. I personally would have been delighted if we had provided 6 guys my 6 : Beattie, Brown, Gray, Maitland, Hogg and Scott.

These 6 guys have all done more than enough for club and country to warrant selection for this tour but for reasons best known to Gatland, 3 of them have been overlooked. As for Gatland’s comment with regards to Hogg and the possibility of playing him at 10, I have never heard so much pish in my entire life. He is a full back and at a push a winger or an outside centre….

The guys unlucky to miss out :

Brown….. Poor old Kelly. Where do I even start? I’ll start by saying had Kelly Brown toured an no other Scott been picked, I would have been happier. Or had Brown been left out for Robshaw or Wood, I would have been desperately gutted but have fully understood. To be left out for a kid who has played a handful of games for a Pro12 side who have routinely been pumped this season was and is an absolute tragedy. Lydiate has done nothing this season to warrant inclusion above Brown, Robshaw or Wood. This is a titanic sized miscarriage of justice.

Beattie, is an easier omission to bear. Lets face facts Faleteu is the guy in possession of the test jersey for the no. 8 slot. However Heaslip had a terrible 6N and apparently scoring a brace of tries against Biaritz is enough to get picked for the Lions these days. Beattie has played consistently well for Montpellier and had an excellent 6N. I have no Idea why Heaslip has been selected, clearly his reputation preceeded him.

Ryan Grant can also be pretty miffed! The Toulon bench warmer of Gethin Jenkins gets to go whilst Grant doesn’t? Let’s just recap what happened a couple of weeks ago when Adam Jones came to Scotstoun… He had a really tough time from Grant who put in a tireless shift and scored a brace of tries and has been left out….

Finally the longest shot, Matt Scott. The 12 jersey wasn’t exactly exploding with Talent, and as a result his stock had risen. I can accept him being left behind.

Onto non Scottish related players…. Heartly in there instead of Best and Matt Stevens even being anywhere near the squad is an absolute joke.

RANT OVER!!!!!

Dont know what your grizzling about we only got one selected.

I feel for you Scottish boys, but hopefully you can take solace in that your players that are there could be the stars of the series! and some more might come up for replacements. Brown is unlucky but is in the most competitive area-backrow, but maybe he can come and do a R Jones 2005. I think Laidlaw should defo be going, esp as we only have 2 flyhalves. As should Grant for the reasons you have outlined.

munkian wrote:Glasgow have also benefited from some very astute over seas signings mind, and Embra are still a bit gash.

You have more Lions this tour than last, its an improvement, man up

Yet the majority of their team are home grown, and many of their form players, who are form players in the rabo are the scottish guys.

This is exactly the kind of stuff im talking about. if we talk up our own players theres always some sort of dismissal from the rest of the home nations.

Risca Rev wrote:

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

I don't think anyone of sound mind thought there would be anything like those numbers touring. I think most would have thought Brown and Laidlaw would tour, plus Gray and Hogg with chances for Beattie, Scott, Visser and Maitland depending on injuries and preferences on the coaches part. I think most would accept Euan Murray had no chance with his limited availability and Ross Ford has just not played well enough for a year or two Owens and Best should have gone ahead of Hartley and Youngs imo. Ross Rennie got injured at the wrong time or could have gone too but the back row has proven seriously competitive. I don't think anyone else could have been considered and not everyone worth considering from any nation will go. I think we are a little underrepresented at three.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

I think, to be fair Welsh and Scottish fans are both guilty of "putting the boot in". I think Scottish fans are guilty of talking their players up against Welsh ones more than others, when maybe they should be looking elsewhere. I can understand the Brown over Lydiate talk, but not ones like Grant over Jenkins, when I'd say Grant should be getting compared with Vunipola. We also get Laidlaw over Phillips, when it should maybe be over Murray and a few others.

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

No one is claiming Grant vs Jenkins. Its Grant vs Stevens/Vunipola. Neither is anyone saying Laidlaw over Phillips, its laidlaw over Murray. You seem to have seen one scot vs welsh comparison in Brown vs Lydiate and just automatically assumed that all the others are also at the expense of a welsh player, which is completely untrue in those cases.

The post above yours debates that Grant should be in over Jenkins, who the poster is also implying is fat!

I'm mentioning Laidlaw, as Laidlaw was be spoken off over Phillips pre Six Nations and during it.

People seem to be mentioning Jenkins a bit on here. Jenkins is going to be on the bench I reckon anyway, so probably wouldn't play more than 30. He has a good enough engine for that and a blowout v the BaaBaas and I think he will be firing for the tour.

If you're wondering why
All the love that you long for eludes you
And people are rude and cruel to you
I'll tell you why
I'll tell you why
I'll tell you why
I'll tell you why

You just haven't earned it yet, baby
You just haven't earned it, son
You just haven't earned it yet, baby
You must suffer and cry for a longer time
You just haven't earned it yet, baby
And I'm telling you now ...

Griff wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

I think, to be fair Welsh and Scottish fans are both guilty of "putting the boot in". I think Scottish fans are guilty of talking their players up against Welsh ones more than others, when maybe they should be looking elsewhere. I can understand the Brown over Lydiate talk, but not ones like Grant over Jenkins, when I'd say Grant should be getting compared with Vunipola. We also get Laidlaw over Phillips, when it should maybe be over Murray and a few others.

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

No one is claiming Grant vs Jenkins. Its Grant vs Stevens/Vunipola. Neither is anyone saying Laidlaw over Phillips, its laidlaw over Murray. You seem to have seen one scot vs welsh comparison in Brown vs Lydiate and just automatically assumed that all the others are also at the expense of a welsh player, which is completely untrue in those cases.

The post above yours debates that Grant should be in over Jenkins, who the poster is also implying is fat!

Not necessarily fat just quite unfit, which comes from being behind another British player at his club, who strangely didn't make the cut.

Griff wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

I think, to be fair Welsh and Scottish fans are both guilty of "putting the boot in". I think Scottish fans are guilty of talking their players up against Welsh ones more than others, when maybe they should be looking elsewhere. I can understand the Brown over Lydiate talk, but not ones like Grant over Jenkins, when I'd say Grant should be getting compared with Vunipola. We also get Laidlaw over Phillips, when it should maybe be over Murray and a few others.

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

No one is claiming Grant vs Jenkins. Its Grant vs Stevens/Vunipola. Neither is anyone saying Laidlaw over Phillips, its laidlaw over Murray. You seem to have seen one scot vs welsh comparison in Brown vs Lydiate and just automatically assumed that all the others are also at the expense of a welsh player, which is completely untrue in those cases.

The post above yours debates that Grant should be in over Jenkins, who the poster is also implying is fat!

Posted while I was typing out my post, other than that, the vast majority is vs Stevens/vunipola

Risca Rev wrote:I'm mentioning Laidlaw, as Laidlaw was be spoken off over Phillips pre Six Nations and during it.

There was a bit of talk, but I think most of us accepted fairly quickly into the start of the tournament that phillips would inevitibly tour, while Murray was less certain, and therefore Laidlaw couldve gone instead of him. Since then, 99% of us have generally said Phillips, youngs and Laidlaw.

munkian wrote:Glasgow have also benefited from some very astute over seas signings mind, and Embra are still a bit gash.

You have more Lions this tour than last, its an improvement, man up

What, two to three, Munk?!?! 50% increase, I suppose!

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

RDW, my day has pretty much been spoiled by Scottish posters if truth be known. All I've heard is Scottish posters rubbishing welsh players. Go back over the myriad of posts and you'll see it everywhere.

When your day has been spoilt by people on a forum you must realise that you need to get off the computer, surely the purpose of a forum is to express your opinion about certain events, the Scotland team has been under-represented. Lydiate, who has barely played international rugby this season and has played a few dead rubbers for a sub-standard team, over Kelly Brown who was essential to Saracens and led his team to their best Six Nations finish for a number of years, Ryan Grant, who was a stand out player for Scotland this season and has been essential to his club team, behind Jenkins who's spent a year in the south of France sleeping in and eating out by the looks of things.

Sam Warburton as captain is a travesty, he isn't the best openside flanker in Wales, he didn't captain his side because it was affecting his form. On the other hand there's inspirational figures in the squad like O'Connell and O'Driscoll who've been overlooked. This is starting to look to me like a Welsh tour with a few add ons.

I'm not disputing that Wales should have the largest representation for the last two years you've had the best team in Europe but are fifteen of the top thirty-seven players in the home nations Welsh? I don't think so. I still want the Lions to do very well and I wish Warren Woodward and his squad the best and I hope you have a nicer day tomorrow.

Numbers, you could also say, if you wanted to be pedantic, that Brown didn't come out looking too hot in his last appearance, just a couple of days before the squad announcement and a pretty high profile game. A real chance to shine but was pretty anonymous against Toulon. He also had a chance to shine against Wales (for which the main Lions selector is the head coach) at home in the 6N but was again came out second best leading his side to a loss there. He wasn't very good in the home loss to Tonga either. My point being that you can point to the bad things Brown has done as well as the good points.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I just want to get this off my chest now, if I do it now it means that come June I can back the Lions to the hilt as I always do.

It’s been nearly 20 years since we had more than a token 5 Lions Tourists. In fact the last time us Scots made up more than 20% of the touring party was coincidently the last time we won the series…. Just Sayin’

Last year plenty of Scots had been left behind, and rightly so in my opinion. We were pretty mince.

The next year though the first glimpses of what might have been began to emerge, Kelly Brown, Richie Gray, John Barclay, Jonnie Beattie, Ross Rennie and Dave Denton all gave hope that although we might be lacking in the backs we would be providing some very rare Scottish Beef for the Lions Pack. That belief didn’t really change when Gray, Brown, Beattie and Grant all had storming 6N and apart from Gray have all been performing well for Club and Country.

In the backs things looked rosy too. Hogg came out of nowhere last season and this season has been a potent attacking weapon for Glasgow and Scotland. In addition Maitland our next kilted Kiwi playing superbly for Scotland and Glasgow, his father will be very proud.

So it came to today, Lions selection. I had a hope, (at least a fool’s hope), that on merit we would have parity in terms of representation with Ireland, a country who really failed to impress in the 6N to such an extent that Kidney was shown the door. I personally would have been delighted if we had provided 6 guys my 6 : Beattie, Brown, Gray, Maitland, Hogg and Scott.

These 6 guys have all done more than enough for club and country to warrant selection for this tour but for reasons best known to Gatland, 3 of them have been overlooked. As for Gatland’s comment with regards to Hogg and the possibility of playing him at 10, I have never heard so much pish in my entire life. He is a full back and at a push a winger or an outside centre….

The guys unlucky to miss out :

Brown….. Poor old Kelly. Where do I even start? I’ll start by saying had Kelly Brown toured an no other Scott been picked, I would have been happier. Or had Brown been left out for Robshaw or Wood, I would have been desperately gutted but have fully understood. To be left out for a kid who has played a handful of games for a Pro12 side who have routinely been pumped this season was and is an absolute tragedy. Lydiate has done nothing this season to warrant inclusion above Brown, Robshaw or Wood. This is a titanic sized miscarriage of justice.

Beattie, is an easier omission to bear. Lets face facts Faleteu is the guy in possession of the test jersey for the no. 8 slot. However Heaslip had a terrible 6N and apparently scoring a brace of tries against Biaritz is enough to get picked for the Lions these days. Beattie has played consistently well for Montpellier and had an excellent 6N. I have no Idea why Heaslip has been selected, clearly his reputation preceeded him.

Ryan Grant can also be pretty miffed! The Toulon bench warmer of Gethin Jenkins gets to go whilst Grant doesn’t? Let’s just recap what happened a couple of weeks ago when Adam Jones came to Scotstoun… He had a really tough time from Grant who put in a tireless shift and scored a brace of tries and has been left out….

Finally the longest shot, Matt Scott. The 12 jersey wasn’t exactly exploding with Talent, and as a result his stock had risen. I can accept him being left behind.

Onto non Scottish related players…. Heartly in there instead of Best and Matt Stevens even being anywhere near the squad is an absolute joke.

RANT OVER!!!!!

Dont know what your grizzling about we only got one selected.

Depends if you (want to) count Hartley or not, laurie?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

munkian wrote:Glasgow have also benefited from some very astute over seas signings mind, and Embra are still a bit gash.

You have more Lions this tour than last, its an improvement, man up

What, two to three, Munk?!?! 50% increase, I suppose!

Exactly, slowly slowly catchy monkey

You'll have your best players fit for your Summer games

Anyway I think it's time we accepted that there's nothing we can do about it and look forward to Kelly Brown holding the six nations trophy aloft at the millenium stadium on the 15th March 2014, after a last minute Laidlaw conversion of a Ryan Grant try.

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

I think, to be fair Welsh and Scottish fans are both guilty of "putting the boot in". I think Scottish fans are guilty of talking their players up against Welsh ones more than others, when maybe they should be looking elsewhere. I can understand the Brown over Lydiate talk, but not ones like Grant over Jenkins, when I'd say Grant should be getting compared with Vunipola. We also get Laidlaw over Phillips, when it should maybe be over Murray and a few others.

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

No one is claiming Grant vs Jenkins. Its Grant vs Stevens/Vunipola. Neither is anyone saying Laidlaw over Phillips, its laidlaw over Murray. You seem to have seen one scot vs welsh comparison in Brown vs Lydiate and just automatically assumed that all the others are also at the expense of a welsh player, which is completely untrue in those cases.

The post above yours debates that Grant should be in over Jenkins, who the poster is also implying is fat!

Not necessarily fat just quite unfit, which comes from being behind another British player at his club, who strangely didn't make the cut.

But fit enough to play very well at international level I the 6N last month! It can't be both. You can't switch fitness on and off like a tap. The boy is fit. He's always had a paunch mind, even at his fittest.

And regarding Sheridan, he's not available due to Toulon being in the HC still. Jenkins though has been granted release as he's leaving the club.

Griff wrote:

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

RDW, my day has pretty much been spoiled by Scottish posters if truth be known. All I've heard is Scottish posters rubbishing welsh players. Go back over the myriad of posts and you'll see it everywhere.

When your day has been spoilt by people on a forum you must realise that you need to get off the computer, surely the purpose of a forum is to express your opinion about certain events, the Scotland team has been under-represented. Lydiate, who has barely played international rugby this season and has played a few dead rubbers for a sub-standard team, over Kelly Brown who was essential to Saracens and led his team to their best Six Nations finish for a number of years, Ryan Grant, who was a stand out player for Scotland this season and has been essential to his club team, behind Jenkins who's spent a year in the south of France sleeping in and eating out by the looks of things.

Sam Warburton as captain is a travesty, he isn't the best openside flanker in Wales, he didn't captain his side because it was affecting his form. On the other hand there's inspirational figures in the squad like O'Connell and O'Driscoll who've been overlooked. This is starting to look to me like a Welsh tour with a few add ons.

I'm not disputing that Wales should have the largest representation for the last two years you've had the best team in Europe but are fifteen of the top thirty-seven players in the home nations Welsh? I don't think so. I still want the Lions to do very well and I wish Warren Woodward and his squad the best and I hope you have a nicer day tomorrow.

Numbers, you could also say, if you wanted to be pedantic, that Brown didn't come out looking too hot in his last appearance, just a couple of days before the squad announcement and a pretty high profile game. A real chance to shine but was pretty anonymous against Toulon. He also had a chance to shine against Wales (for which the main Lions selector is the head coach) at home in the 6N but was again came out second best leading his side to a loss there. He wasn't very good in the home loss to Tonga either. My point being that you can point to the bad things Brown has done as well as the good points.

Griff, furry muff, but remember that in all the games you have highlighted Brown was NOT playing in his preferred position of 6, but instead at openside - yet he still made those tackles in the 6Ns, and topped turnovers, etc.

Asbo,the ironic thing about Maitland and Hartley is that Hartley's from Rotorua and Maitlands from Tokoroa, they are about 50 kilometeres apart.

Must say though it took the Scots to turn Maitland into an International.

Griff wrote:

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

I think, to be fair Welsh and Scottish fans are both guilty of "putting the boot in". I think Scottish fans are guilty of talking their players up against Welsh ones more than others, when maybe they should be looking elsewhere. I can understand the Brown over Lydiate talk, but not ones like Grant over Jenkins, when I'd say Grant should be getting compared with Vunipola. We also get Laidlaw over Phillips, when it should maybe be over Murray and a few others.

Serious question now (though it probably won't sit too well), but do any Scots think you expected too much (even subconsciously)? There was talk of 11-13 Lions from Scotland a while back.

No one is claiming Grant vs Jenkins. Its Grant vs Stevens/Vunipola. Neither is anyone saying Laidlaw over Phillips, its laidlaw over Murray. You seem to have seen one scot vs welsh comparison in Brown vs Lydiate and just automatically assumed that all the others are also at the expense of a welsh player, which is completely untrue in those cases.

The post above yours debates that Grant should be in over Jenkins, who the poster is also implying is fat!

Not necessarily fat just quite unfit, which comes from being behind another British player at his club, who strangely didn't make the cut.

But fit enough to play very well at international level I the 6N last month! It can't be both. You can't switch fitness on and off like a tap. The boy is fit. He's always had a paunch mind, even at his fittest.

And regarding Sheridan, he's not available due to Toulon being in the HC still. Jenkins though has been granted release as he's leaving the club.

At the start of the six nations he was very unfit and it's likely to be the same now, are you feeling better now I wouldn't want to think we've ruined your day? Grant, Robshaw, Best and Ryan Jones' anger combined probably doesn't come close to how you're feeling

Who said I was angry? I woke up looking forward to Lions announcement day. Set my calendar for an 11am reminder. Tuned in to the BBC sport online live announcement. Set up 606v2 on the other page to see the live 'chat'.....

.....and then had to wade through the shoite.

So not angry, just disappointed. Disappointed that there's no congratulations to the players going, only criticism of a number of their inclusions. Disappointed at the lack of unified spirit. It's more divided than ever this year. Of course this is in part down to the selectors, but it is up to the fans to put that to one side. Very little of that on here today. Lots of 'I'll (begrudgingly) get behind the Lions, BUT...' before reeling off a long list of aledged and subjective transgressions. Disappointing.

Griff wrote:Who said I was angry? I woke up looking forward to Lions announcement day. Set my calendar for an 11am reminder. Tuned in to the BBC sport online live announcement. Set up 606v2 on the other page to see the live 'chat'.....

.....and then had to wade through the shoite.

So not angry, just disappointed. Disappointed that there's no congratulations to the players going, only criticism of a number of their inclusions. Disappointed at the lack of unified spirit. It's more divided than ever this year. Of course this is in part down to the selectors, but it is up to the fans to put that to one side. Very little of that on here today. Lots of 'I'll (begrudgingly) get behind the Lions, BUT...' before reeling off a long list of aledged and subjective transgressions. Disappointing.

Get off your high horse and put yourself in our shoes. If you could honestly say youd have a smile on your face and not feel down then ill eat my hat.

Really think you set your expectations too high then , if all people care about is how many of their national side are playing then they aren't Lions fans

Griff wrote:Who said I was angry? I woke up looking forward to Lions announcement day. Set my calendar for an 11am reminder. Tuned in to the BBC sport online live announcement. Set up 606v2 on the other page to see the live 'chat'.....

.....and then had to wade through the shoite.

So not angry, just disappointed. Disappointed that there's no congratulations to the players going, only criticism of a number of their inclusions. Disappointed at the lack of unified spirit. It's more divided than ever this year. Of course this is in part down to the selectors, but it is up to the fans to put that to one side. Very little of that on here today. Lots of 'I'll (begrudgingly) get behind the Lions, BUT...' before reeling off a long list of aledged and subjective transgressions. Disappointing.

Griff, I think that'll come with time, but you were never going to get 'unified spirit' on the day of selection to be realisitc

Griff wrote:Who said I was angry? I woke up looking forward to Lions announcement day. Set my calendar for an 11am reminder. Tuned in to the BBC sport online live announcement. Set up 606v2 on the other page to see the live 'chat'.....

.....and then had to wade through the shoite.

So not angry, just disappointed. Disappointed that there's no congratulations to the players going, only criticism of a number of their inclusions. Disappointed at the lack of unified spirit. It's more divided than ever this year. Of course this is in part down to the selectors, but it is up to the fans to put that to one side. Very little of that on here today. Lots of 'I'll (begrudgingly) get behind the Lions, BUT...' before reeling off a long list of aledged and subjective transgressions. Disappointing.

Well not all of us have two national tours to look forward too this summer

Then you should be slagging the SRFU then, not taking out on the selected players and their fans

This has nothing to do with the SRU Munkian. Had Robshaw or Wood been selected ahead of Brown i would be disappointed rather than peed off.

Well, you not having a tour isn't Gatland's fault.

Griff wrote:

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

RDW, my day has pretty much been spoiled by Scottish posters if truth be known. All I've heard is Scottish posters rubbishing welsh players. Go back over the myriad of posts and you'll see it everywhere.

When your day has been spoilt by people on a forum you must realise that you need to get off the computer, surely the purpose of a forum is to express your opinion about certain events, the Scotland team has been under-represented. Lydiate, who has barely played international rugby this season and has played a few dead rubbers for a sub-standard team, over Kelly Brown who was essential to Saracens and led his team to their best Six Nations finish for a number of years, Ryan Grant, who was a stand out player for Scotland this season and has been essential to his club team, behind Jenkins who's spent a year in the south of France sleeping in and eating out by the looks of things.

Sam Warburton as captain is a travesty, he isn't the best openside flanker in Wales, he didn't captain his side because it was affecting his form. On the other hand there's inspirational figures in the squad like O'Connell and O'Driscoll who've been overlooked. This is starting to look to me like a Welsh tour with a few add ons.

I'm not disputing that Wales should have the largest representation for the last two years you've had the best team in Europe but are fifteen of the top thirty-seven players in the home nations Welsh? I don't think so. I still want the Lions to do very well and I wish Warren Woodward and his squad the best and I hope you have a nicer day tomorrow.

Numbers, you could also say, if you wanted to be pedantic, that Brown didn't come out looking too hot in his last appearance, just a couple of days before the squad announcement and a pretty high profile game. A real chance to shine but was pretty anonymous against Toulon. He also had a chance to shine against Wales (for which the main Lions selector is the head coach) at home in the 6N but was again came out second best leading his side to a loss there. He wasn't very good in the home loss to Tonga either. My point being that you can point to the bad things Brown has done as well as the good points.

I am going to have to disagree. KB was for me the outstanding Saracens player v Toulon. Vunipola had his moments too, but KB was an absolute force in the Sarries pack. A pack that was let down by some atrocious backs who butchered three great chances.

That Brown is not travelling, largely because a player who has just come back from injury but is a Gatland favourite*, is a travesty.

* Gatlands words following the selection announcement were along the lines of 'The 6N was the benchmark' and 'We looked at players last weekend' - i.e. the Euro semis.

Where did Lydiate outscore Brown in all those games?

Answer, he couldn't because he didn't play in any of them. Gatland is a hypocrite imo, and this tour could be as bad as 2005.

I'm still behind the team though.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I'm mentioning Laidlaw, as Laidlaw was be spoken off over Phillips pre Six Nations and during it.

There was a bit of talk, but I think most of us accepted fairly quickly into the start of the tournament that phillips would inevitibly tour, while Murray was less certain, and therefore Laidlaw couldve gone instead of him. Since then, 99% of us have generally said Phillips, youngs and Laidlaw.

Fair enough. Hope you guys get some more call ups. Lot will change probably even before the tour. In some cases, it is better to join the party late. At least Scotland will be seriously strong for their tournament this summer.

123456789 wrote:Anyway I think it's time we accepted that there's nothing we can do about it and look forward to Kelly Brown holding the six nations trophy aloft at the millenium stadium on the 15th March 2014, after a last minute Laidlaw conversion of a Ryan Grant try.

That's the spirit :OK I look forward to being there for that, with my bro in law and mates fae Inverness.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Asbo,the ironic thing about Maitland and Hartley is that Hartley's from Rotorua and Maitlands from Tokoroa, they are about 50 kilometeres apart.

Must say though it took the Scots to turn Maitland into an International.

Laurie - I did laugh at the NZ Herald article which led with the headline that the Lions tour had more Kiwis (3 - Maitland, Hartley and also Vunipola was born in Wellington) than Scots this year.

Also was reminded that Sean Maitland is Quade Cooper's cousin and the affectionate sledging between that pair has already started if you're on the Tweety. I am not. Frankie Boyle is right - modern equivalent of sitting on a park bench muttering to yourself.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Griff wrote:

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:How come it is generally the Welsh that feel the need to put the boot in with Scottish players? Haven't found many Irish or English posters who go out their way to rubbish any arguments against us feeling disappointed with our representation...

RDW, my day has pretty much been spoiled by Scottish posters if truth be known. All I've heard is Scottish posters rubbishing welsh players. Go back over the myriad of posts and you'll see it everywhere.

When your day has been spoilt by people on a forum you must realise that you need to get off the computer, surely the purpose of a forum is to express your opinion about certain events, the Scotland team has been under-represented. Lydiate, who has barely played international rugby this season and has played a few dead rubbers for a sub-standard team, over Kelly Brown who was essential to Saracens and led his team to their best Six Nations finish for a number of years, Ryan Grant, who was a stand out player for Scotland this season and has been essential to his club team, behind Jenkins who's spent a year in the south of France sleeping in and eating out by the looks of things.

Sam Warburton as captain is a travesty, he isn't the best openside flanker in Wales, he didn't captain his side because it was affecting his form. On the other hand there's inspirational figures in the squad like O'Connell and O'Driscoll who've been overlooked. This is starting to look to me like a Welsh tour with a few add ons.

I'm not disputing that Wales should have the largest representation for the last two years you've had the best team in Europe but are fifteen of the top thirty-seven players in the home nations Welsh? I don't think so. I still want the Lions to do very well and I wish Warren Woodward and his squad the best and I hope you have a nicer day tomorrow.

Numbers, you could also say, if you wanted to be pedantic, that Brown didn't come out looking too hot in his last appearance, just a couple of days before the squad announcement and a pretty high profile game. A real chance to shine but was pretty anonymous against Toulon. He also had a chance to shine against Wales (for which the main Lions selector is the head coach) at home in the 6N but was again came out second best leading his side to a loss there. He wasn't very good in the home loss to Tonga either. My point being that you can point to the bad things Brown has done as well as the good points.

I am going to have to disagree. KB was for me the outstanding Saracens player v Toulon. Vunipola had his moments too, but KB was an absolute force in the Sarries pack. A pack that was let down by some atrocious backs who butchered three great chances.

That Brown is not travelling, largely because a player who has just come back from injury but is a Gatland favourite*, is a travesty.

* Gatlands words following the selection announcement were along the lines of 'The 6N was the benchmark' and 'We looked at players last weekend' - i.e. the Euro semis.

Where did Lydiate outscore Brown in all those games?

Answer, he couldn't because he didn't play in any of them. Gatland is a hypocrite imo, and this tour could be as bad as 2005.

I'm still behind the team though.

Bang on the money, Hound

There were a number of head scratching moments for me when this squad was announced. And I have to be honest the choices of Vunipola and Stevens over the Scottish pair of Grant and Murray were 2 of them. Grant has been superb all season and is the only person I have seen give Adam Jones a hard time when Glasgow played Ospreys a few weeks ago.

I don't even know where to start with Matt Stevens.

My other call is Kelly Brown. I am a big Lydiate fan but he just has not done enough to be selected after 6 months out. However it is Croft's selection as well ahead of Brown that is strange for me. I would personally have gone for Brown and Ryan Jones as the 2 6's.

I think Scotland can feel a little hard done by. It is always going to be difficult though getting selected from a losing team but it should come down to individuals.

England seem to have benefitted from having a couple of Emglish selectors because I just can't see the justification for 5 English front rowers in a pack that struggled against Wales and Italy.

2 hookers and a second row (Parling) who calls the shots there, from a team with the worst lineout stats in the 6 nations.

123456789 wrote:

Griff wrote:Who said I was angry? I woke up looking forward to Lions announcement day. Set my calendar for an 11am reminder. Tuned in to the BBC sport online live announcement. Set up 606v2 on the other page to see the live 'chat'.....

.....and then had to wade through the shoite.

So not angry, just disappointed. Disappointed that there's no congratulations to the players going, only criticism of a number of their inclusions. Disappointed at the lack of unified spirit. It's more divided than ever this year. Of course this is in part down to the selectors, but it is up to the fans to put that to one side. Very little of that on here today. Lots of 'I'll (begrudgingly) get behind the Lions, BUT...' before reeling off a long list of aledged and subjective transgressions. Disappointing.

Well not all of us have two national tours to look forward too this summer

So you're not British now either? Selective 'Britishness' based on the number of scots in the team? You do have two national tours to look forward to - the Scottish tour and the British&Irish tour. Or are you not going to get behind the 3 Scottish players now, plus the others that will be called up? Will they be temporarily English for the summer so you don't have to get behind them??? Strange outlook.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I just want to get this off my chest now, if I do it now it means that come June I can back the Lions to the hilt as I always do.

It’s been nearly 20 years since we had more than a token 5 Lions Tourists. In fact the last time us Scots made up more than 20% of the touring party was coincidently the last time we won the series…. Just Sayin’

Last year plenty of Scots had been left behind, and rightly so in my opinion. We were pretty mince.

The next year though the first glimpses of what might have been began to emerge, Kelly Brown, Richie Gray, John Barclay, Jonnie Beattie, Ross Rennie and Dave Denton all gave hope that although we might be lacking in the backs we would be providing some very rare Scottish Beef for the Lions Pack. That belief didn’t really change when Gray, Brown, Beattie and Grant all had storming 6N and apart from Gray have all been performing well for Club and Country.

In the backs things looked rosy too. Hogg came out of nowhere last season and this season has been a potent attacking weapon for Glasgow and Scotland. In addition Maitland our next kilted Kiwi playing superbly for Scotland and Glasgow, his father will be very proud.

So it came to today, Lions selection. I had a hope, (at least a fool’s hope), that on merit we would have parity in terms of representation with Ireland, a country who really failed to impress in the 6N to such an extent that Kidney was shown the door. I personally would have been delighted if we had provided 6 guys my 6 : Beattie, Brown, Gray, Maitland, Hogg and Scott.

These 6 guys have all done more than enough for club and country to warrant selection for this tour but for reasons best known to Gatland, 3 of them have been overlooked. As for Gatland’s comment with regards to Hogg and the possibility of playing him at 10, I have never heard so much pish in my entire life. He is a full back and at a push a winger or an outside centre….

The guys unlucky to miss out :

Brown….. Poor old Kelly. Where do I even start? I’ll start by saying had Kelly Brown toured an no other Scott been picked, I would have been happier. Or had Brown been left out for Robshaw or Wood, I would have been desperately gutted but have fully understood. To be left out for a kid who has played a handful of games for a Pro12 side who have routinely been pumped this season was and is an absolute tragedy. Lydiate has done nothing this season to warrant inclusion above Brown, Robshaw or Wood. This is a titanic sized miscarriage of justice.

Beattie, is an easier omission to bear. Lets face facts Faleteu is the guy in possession of the test jersey for the no. 8 slot. However Heaslip had a terrible 6N and apparently scoring a brace of tries against Biaritz is enough to get picked for the Lions these days. Beattie has played consistently well for Montpellier and had an excellent 6N. I have no Idea why Heaslip has been selected, clearly his reputation preceeded him.

Ryan Grant can also be pretty miffed! The Toulon bench warmer of Gethin Jenkins gets to go whilst Grant doesn’t? Let’s just recap what happened a couple of weeks ago when Adam Jones came to Scotstoun… He had a really tough time from Grant who put in a tireless shift and scored a brace of tries and has been left out….

Finally the longest shot, Matt Scott. The 12 jersey wasn’t exactly exploding with Talent, and as a result his stock had risen. I can accept him being left behind.

Onto non Scottish related players…. Heartly in there instead of Best and Matt Stevens even being anywhere near the squad is an absolute joke.

RANT OVER!!!!!

Dont know what your grizzling about we only got one selected.

There I was reading some of the worst crap I've ever had the misfortune to waste some of my life on (and trust me, there has been some truly awful stuff since Wales won the 6N) when this little beauty popped up. Bravo Auckland!!!

I personally hope this tour comes round and bites Gatland right on the erse cheek. Not for the lack of Scots, but for the sheer lack of common sense selections and going back on his words of 'picking on form' etc.

Feeling better today Griff? There there.

Tell me, has a Scottish coach ever coached the Lions?

Yup

Geech

You never heard of Sir Ian McGeechan and Jim Telfer Biltong??

When was that?

I do hope you're on the wind up Biltong....as a passionate SA supporter you know fine well what he is best known for in 1997!

The thing I dont get is why (apparently) did Andy Irvine not do more shouting for the Scottish Players? Does he have too much integrity and felt it would be an abuse of his power?

This is why I say the Lions Coach should be unaffiliated with a home nation. Someone like Jake White or Nick Mallet should have been given the job!

Haha, no mate, I actually have a thought process going here.

How many Scots were there in his squad?

5 in 1997

2 when he was in charge in 2009 but went up to 4 (we were crap in 2009 though!)

Biltong

Sir Ian McGeechan means the about the same to Scottish rugby as Dannie Craven does to South African rugby, hes their legend.

George Carlin wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Asbo,the ironic thing about Maitland and Hartley is that Hartley's from Rotorua and Maitlands from Tokoroa, they are about 50 kilometeres apart.

Must say though it took the Scots to turn Maitland into an International.

Laurie - I did laugh at the NZ Herald article which led with the headline that the Lions tour had more Kiwis (3 - Maitland, Hartley and also Vunipola was born in Wellington) than Scots this year.

Also was reminded that Sean Maitland is Quade Cooper's cousin and the affectionate sledging between that pair has already started if you're on the Tweety. I am not. Frankie Boyle is right - modern equivalent of sitting on a park bench muttering to yourself.

I've seen this stat doing the rounds:

Lions by place of Birth:
England 10
Wales 9
Ireland 8
New Zealand 3
South Africa 2
Scotland 2
Tonga 1
Samoa 1
Israel 1

(and myself, Glas & Thomond were guilty of some muttering banter on the Tweety thing this morning . Yesterday was the first time I've logged on to it in weeks)

Israel?

Who's that.

I am very unhappy about Gatland discriminating against SA, only 2 for us, what gives?

I know what you mean, but I dont think Dingo will be as discrimanatory against Kiwis as Gatland.