Match Thread: Tigers vs Quins

[nathan]

First topic message reminder :

Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigers!!

Looking out of the window the weather is pretty dire, very windy and wet! lol

[nathan]

Lovely try by croft, showed some serious pace.

[thebluesmancometh]

Dan Cole getting yet another tuning. Overrated or what

Dragonbreath giving the welsh a bad name yet again.......

Now why does that criticism have anything to do with him being Welsh???

Cole has started this second half excellently, but the reason he struggles in the scrum is Youngs size, watch how he gets turned in everytime, if Leicester had a decent hooker who could scrummage Cole would more than hold his own!

Give it a rest blue, you know exactly why judging by his other comments around the forums...

I'm not interested what he's said before, or where he's from, he's wrong about Cole who is playing awesome, but struggling in the scrum.

If he's wrong attack hi9m being wrong, don't attack his possible nation!!

You wouldn'nt agree with me calling you an arrogant Englishman for disagreeing with him would you?!

Your a million miles off, I always listen to peoples opinion. There certainly entitled to one, it's the tone of how it was said.

So you read his tone and attacked my nation? Thanks for that!

Tom Croft WOW!!!

I was about to mention how good Croft, Cole and Parling had started the second half, now he'll get all the plaudits for the try and not his hard work in the tight!!

[nathan]

28 - 9 to tigers, still not writing off quins yet.

[Breadvan]

Outrageous score from croft...

[nathan]

Dan Cole getting yet another tuning. Overrated or what

Dragonbreath giving the welsh a bad name yet again.......

Now why does that criticism have anything to do with him being Welsh???

Cole has started this second half excellently, but the reason he struggles in the scrum is Youngs size, watch how he gets turned in everytime, if Leicester had a decent hooker who could scrummage Cole would more than hold his own!

Give it a rest blue, you know exactly why judging by his other comments around the forums...

I'm not interested what he's said before, or where he's from, he's wrong about Cole who is playing awesome, but struggling in the scrum.

If he's wrong attack hi9m being wrong, don't attack his possible nation!!

You wouldn'nt agree with me calling you an arrogant Englishman for disagreeing with him would you?!

Your a million miles off, I always listen to peoples opinion. There certainly entitled to one, it's the tone of how it was said.

So you read his tone and attacked my nation? Thanks for that!

Tom Croft WOW!!!

I was about to mention how good Croft, Cole and Parling had started the second half, now he'll get all the plaudits for the try and not his hard work in the tight!!

What ever blue, we'll agree to disagree.

[thebluesmancometh]

Dan Cole getting yet another tuning. Overrated or what

Dragonbreath giving the welsh a bad name yet again.......

Now why does that criticism have anything to do with him being Welsh???

Cole has started this second half excellently, but the reason he struggles in the scrum is Youngs size, watch how he gets turned in everytime, if Leicester had a decent hooker who could scrummage Cole would more than hold his own!

Give it a rest blue, you know exactly why judging by his other comments around the forums...

I'm not interested what he's said before, or where he's from, he's wrong about Cole who is playing awesome, but struggling in the scrum.

If he's wrong attack hi9m being wrong, don't attack his possible nation!!

You wouldn'nt agree with me calling you an arrogant Englishman for disagreeing with him would you?!

Your a million miles off, I always listen to peoples opinion. There certainly entitled to one, it's the tone of how it was said.

So you read his tone and attacked my nation? Thanks for that!

Tom Croft WOW!!!

I was about to mention how good Croft, Cole and Parling had started the second half, now he'll get all the plaudits for the try and not his hard work in the tight!!

What ever blue, we'll agree to disagree.

You don't like Croft?

[nathan]

Dan Cole getting yet another tuning. Overrated or what

Dragonbreath giving the welsh a bad name yet again.......

Now why does that criticism have anything to do with him being Welsh???

Cole has started this second half excellently, but the reason he struggles in the scrum is Youngs size, watch how he gets turned in everytime, if Leicester had a decent hooker who could scrummage Cole would more than hold his own!

Give it a rest blue, you know exactly why judging by his other comments around the forums...

I'm not interested what he's said before, or where he's from, he's wrong about Cole who is playing awesome, but struggling in the scrum.

If he's wrong attack hi9m being wrong, don't attack his possible nation!!

You wouldn'nt agree with me calling you an arrogant Englishman for disagreeing with him would you?!

Your a million miles off, I always listen to peoples opinion. There certainly entitled to one, it's the tone of how it was said.

So you read his tone and attacked my nation? Thanks for that!

Tom Croft WOW!!!

I was about to mention how good Croft, Cole and Parling had started the second half, now he'll get all the plaudits for the try and not his hard work in the tight!!

What ever blue, we'll agree to disagree.

You don't like Croft?

You know exactly what I was replying to, give it a rest...

[nathan]

Lovely try, glad tait got one.

[nathan]

Mom for tait for me.

[thebluesmancometh]

Tait deserves that, MOTM for me!

[nathan]

Argh, not a fan of us subbing everyone.

[thebluesmancometh]

Mom for tait for me.

I must be wrong then

[nathan]

Mom for tait for me.

I must be wrong then

Lol, you must be!

[thebluesmancometh]

What did you think of the Youngs?

[nathan]

What did you think of the Youngs?

Which one?

[thebluesmancometh]

both!

[nathan]

Thought t. Youngs did well in the loose, not his best day in the tight. B.youngs was ok first half but thought played excellently second half. Overall I thought he outplayed care.

You?

[dragonbreath]

Dan Cole getting yet another tuning. Overrated or what

Dragonbreath giving the welsh a bad name yet again.......

and Tigers fan giving the English a bad name. This is not the first time Cole has been given an outing this year get over it

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Superb from Leicester in the second half - congrats Thought Quins were going well in the first half, but that score from Goneva just before half-time seemed to turn the tide

[thebluesmancometh]

Thought t. Youngs did well in the loose, not his best day in the tight. B.youngs was ok first half but thought played excellently second half. Overall I thought he outplayed care.

Then we disagree, I think Care totally outclassed Ben first half, his distribution was dire, Flood took it from his shoulder to his shoe laces. Better second half with a better platform, but he offered very little all round game, his kicking stopped, he was no threat around the fringes he just hit the 10 and pod.

Tom really struggled in the tight first half, lthough can't fault his effort and workrate, it's just that he was totally ineffective, when the second half broke up I thought he'd come into the game more, but he vanished!!

Very dissapointed in both, and Tom terrifies me that he might be near a test team in the summer!!

Was very impressed with Cole, when he gets Hibbard inside him with Jenkins or Healy the other side we are going to see the very best of him, he might well start in the tests and it'll be hard to argue against it.

Croft was immense, excluding the try he worked really hard in the tight, and didn't drift too wide too often, very good support play and I look forward to him playing with guys like SOB and Tipuric.

Geoff Parling WOW! If there was any doubt of his lions spot after today it is totally nullified. He was very good first half and in the 2nd was only beaten to MOTM by Tait, by a hair!!!!

Dissapointed in Manu too, not many chances, and the chances he did get just highlighted his lack of pace. Did well for the try, but I think Gatland will use him as much more of a Roberts type, and I think if he gets a chance at 12 with Sexton and BOD/Davies either side we might see fireworks!!

Also todays kicking performance is why Flood was never considered to travel!!!

[Biltong]

Dan Cole getting yet another tuning. Overrated or what

Dragonbreath giving the welsh a bad name yet again.......

and Tigers fan giving the English a bad name. This is not the first time Cole has been given an outing this year get over it

Quit the personal stuff guys.

[The Saint]

I've been watching the Sevens via the red button, but it seems Tigers got a convincing 33-16 victory? Or maybe not so convincing?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

The former

[The Saint]

Thanks. Good news considering the team contains 6 Lions.

[nathan]

Thanks. Good news considering the team contains 6 Lions.

First half was close with perhaps quins edging it but second half it was all tigers other than the last 10

[formerly known as Sam]

I think the two key moments in the game both came in the first half. The Croft try saver was immense and lifted Tigers. The Goneva try knocked Quins confidence and then in the second half it was all Tigers.

Does Lancaster wish to rethink the none selection of Tait and Allen? I would say yes, especially if he's selecting, done nothing all season Foden.

On Cole I thought he was excellent around the park (another backrower in effect) and solid but unspectacular at the scrum. There was never any pressure on his side but neither did he put Marler away.

[thebluesmancometh]

Thanks. Good news considering the team contains 6 Lions.

First half was close with perhaps quins edging it but second half it was all tigers other than the last 10

Thanks to some very impressive lions performances

[thebluesmancometh]

I think the two key moments in the game both came in the first half. The Croft try saver was immense and lifted Tigers. The Goneva try knocked Quins confidence and then in the second half it was all Tigers.

Does Lancaster wish to rethink the none selection of Tait and Allen? I would say yes, especially if he's selecting, done nothing all season Foden.

On Cole I thought he was excellent around the park (another backrower in effect) and solid but unspectacular at the scrum. There was never any pressure on his side but neither did he put Marler away.

You try putting Marler away with Youngs inside you!!! I really hope Cole gets the shot at scrummaging with Hibbard in the summer, Cole is a strong scrummaging prop who's struggling with a shorter guy inside him. Youngs is offering little in support in the scrum, he missed 2 lineouts today too, and didn't do much in the loose, or anything effective in the tight.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

[formerly known as Sam]

There was a barnstorming run in either half by Tom Youngs, I thought he did an excellent job at the breakdown, made his tackles, made ground ball in hand and was a real thorn in the side of Quins. The lineout wasn't great but it was a windy day and I think Quins made a couple of errors there as well. He's short and only 16 stone so he's not likely to be an animal at the scrum but none of our other hookers have shown much at scrum time.

Marler is just a good loosehead (when the ref insists the TH binds properly).

[thebluesmancometh]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

I didn't realise he was on the park in the second half until he went off to a standing ovvation

First half his effort and workrate couldn't be faulted, but he was very ineffective, he has been very good this season, but for me he's a Mike Brown, Allen, and Nick Ester type, he'll be a very good club player all season, he'll do a great job for Leicester but he isn't international standard, and if he is anywhere near a test shirt I'll be watching through my fingers!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

I didn't realise he was on the park in the second half until he went off to a standing ovvation

First half his effort and workrate couldn't be faulted, but he was very ineffective, he has been very good this season, but for me he's a Mike Brown, Allen, and Nick Ester type, he'll be a very good club player all season, he'll do a great job for Leicester but he isn't international standard, and if he is anywhere near a test shirt I'll be watching through my fingers!

At least you're not Rory Best - he'll be chewing his fingers off!

[thebluesmancometh]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

I didn't realise he was on the park in the second half until he went off to a standing ovvation

First half his effort and workrate couldn't be faulted, but he was very ineffective, he has been very good this season, but for me he's a Mike Brown, Allen, and Nick Ester type, he'll be a very good club player all season, he'll do a great job for Leicester but he isn't international standard, and if he is anywhere near a test shirt I'll be watching through my fingers!

At least you're not Rory Best - he'll be chewing his fingers off!

Aye, he was very good yesterday. His lineout and breakdown work superb!

[nathan]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

to be fair, tigers didn't have much ball in the first half.

[mbernz]

Youngs with Cole in the front row was something I queried (and was told wasn't an issue) before the AIs as an area opposing teams could possibly target.

I don't think Youngs is a poor scrumager, but when paired with a player who is 6in taller than him, that height differential forms a lesser link that might be exploitable. Pairing him with shorter props to make a lower front row across the board by comparison could actually be a scrummaging tool, as the French side of a few years back proved. The problem being for England that Cole is an earlier name of the teamsheet and that the backups Wilson & Thomas are both only an inch shorter.

That all being said, not many sides have exploited this possible weakness thus far, so maybe it's not a huge issue, though it may be holding back the props from more destructive offensive scrummaging.

[nathan]

Then we disagree, I think Care totally outclassed Ben first half, his distribution was dire, Flood took it from his shoulder to his shoe laces. Better second half with a better platform, but he offered very little all round game, his kicking stopped, he was no threat around the fringes he just hit the 10 and pod.

May not of been his best game but i disagree he offered very little all game, he got the ball away quickly most of the time - although as you say sometimes it was at floods feet/head. i no way agree that Care totally outclassed him, thought Care was a little like a headless chicken at times, hence why he was subbed early - need to take into consideration the yellow card which started the Quins downfall.

Tom really struggled in the tight first half, lthough can't fault his effort and workrate, it's just that he was totally ineffective, when the second half broke up I thought he'd come into the game more, but he vanished!!

Very dissapointed in both, and Tom terrifies me that he might be near a test team in the summer!!

again, i don't agree he was "totally ineffective". i'm not seeing this "he really struggled in the first half", there were a few scrum penalties that went against the tigers - but they were due to Johnston scrummaging illegally. Tigers didn't have much ball in the first half so you don't really expect much carrying. he did actually vanish after 19 minutes in the second half, he was subbed.

Was very impressed with Cole, when he gets Hibbard inside him with Jenkins or Healy the other side we are going to see the very best of him, he might well start in the tests and it'll be hard to argue against it.

Croft was immense, excluding the try he worked really hard in the tight, and didn't drift too wide too often, very good support play and I look forward to him playing with guys like SOB and Tipuric.

Croft has always done alot of unseen work, today was certainly one of his better days.

Geoff Parling WOW! If there was any doubt of his lions spot after today it is totally nullified. He was very good first half and in the 2nd was only beaten to MOTM by Tait, by a hair!!!!

Again a very hard grafting performance, nothing flashy - just the basics done very well.

Dissapointed in Manu too, not many chances, and the chances he did get just highlighted his lack of pace. Did well for the try, but I think Gatland will use him as much more of a Roberts type, and I think if he gets a chance at 12 with Sexton and BOD/Davies either side we might see fireworks!!

He set up two tries, he was well marked. I'd like to see him run onto balls from a little deeper. When he gets going he's hard to stop. His lack of pace? did you not see his try against france?

Also todays kicking performance is why Flood was never considered to travel!!!

certainly not the best of days with Flood, also missing a few kicks. Think it's good he's getting a rest over the summer.

all in all i think you have some valid points, but i think you're being way too harsh using words such as totally ineffective and very disappointed, they were in a team that just beat the current champions by a good margin - they're the sorts of words you attach to a losing team.

oh and sorry for the long post!!

[thebluesmancometh]

Cares game is headless chicken, forwards constantly coming onto the ball and moving the point of attack with quins though. I agree I wouldn't want that headless chicken style for the lions, but on todays performances I just thought Care was the better player, outclassed might have been a bit harsh.

I can't change my mind on Youngs, his size is killing Cole in the scrum, his lineout is constantly poor despite throwing to one of the best lineout jumpers in europe, and his carrying game goes missing in big club games let alone on the int stage, he may get there, but right now he isn't international class.

Croft does have a tendancy to drift in the wider chanells and wait around while the pack can get into an arm wrestle, I prefer my 6's involved in the tight more, but today I can't fault his performance it was near perfect!

Parling I think your bang on about, he does nothing complex just executes his orders to a T!!!

He did set up the try well, but the quins wingers are very poor defenders IMHO, and he just doesn't have that searing pace to his game, he will be a weapon in Aus and I like how he's come along (last summer in SA he was immense) but I think he'll be used as a tighter option ala Roberts.

It is odd to use such strong language to a winning team, but it highlights how poor I think Youngs was today, all in all most of the lions showed justification in selection, except Tom Youngs who continues to scare the bejeesus out of me!

[thebluesmancometh]

Also I hasten to say this but I really hope Youngs doesn't turn out to be Mears esque in what he offers the lions.

[maverickmak]

One thing I can say in Tuilagi's favour, is that if it is't going his way in attack, he still puts in a flanker-sized shift in defence. His work at ruck time and in defence is underrated by many who don't watch him every week. He probably over does it, but it is useful if he is being marked out of the game. It also means he can drift of the defences radar until he pops up later on with a telling break.

[thebluesmancometh]

One thing I can say in Tuilagi's favour, is that if it is't going his way in attack, he still puts in a flanker-sized shift in defence. His work at ruck time and in defence is underrated by many who don't watch him every week. He probably over does it, but it is useful if he is being marked out of the game. It also means he can drift of the defences radar until he pops up later on with a telling break.

Ye I have noticed in recent times when he finds himself not involved he'll happily get stuck in elsewhere

[markb]

Well done Tigers, I had you down for the win before the game, but for most of the first half I though Quins looked like they would win, convincing in the end though.

Also, that's a far better rugby kit, it no longer looks like a Chewits wrapper!

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

Blues, I have to disagree with your appraisal of Youngs' carrying ability. When he came on against france in 6n he made a huge impact with his carrying (1 big game). Against the Ospreys he made a great break and his carrying again was outstanding (2 big game) and then today he made another break and just puts in hits consistently (3 big game), oh and dare I forget his performance v NZ.

Your qualms about his set piece are very understandable but his work around the park is what stands him out from all other British and Irish hookers IMO.

[Hound of Harrow]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

I didn't realise he was on the park in the second half until he went off to a standing ovvation

First half his effort and workrate couldn't be faulted, but he was very ineffective, he has been very good this season, but for me he's a Mike Brown, Allen, and Nick Ester type, he'll be a very good club player all season, he'll do a great job for Leicester but he isn't international standard, and if he is anywhere near a test shirt I'll be watching through my fingers!

At least you're not Rory Best - he'll be chewing his fingers off!

He might as well, given his throwing in at the lineout during the 6N.

[nathan]

Cares game is headless chicken, forwards constantly coming onto the ball and moving the point of attack with quins though. I agree I wouldn't want that headless chicken style for the lions, but on todays performances I just thought Care was the better player, outclassed might have been a bit harsh.

I can't change my mind on Youngs, his size is killing Cole in the scrum, his lineout is constantly poor despite throwing to one of the best lineout jumpers in europe, and his carrying game goes missing in big club games let alone on the int stage, he may get there, but right now he isn't international class.

Croft does have a tendancy to drift in the wider chanells and wait around while the pack can get into an arm wrestle, I prefer my 6's involved in the tight more, but today I can't fault his performance it was near perfect!

Parling I think your bang on about, he does nothing complex just executes his orders to a T!!!

He did set up the try well, but the quins wingers are very poor defenders IMHO, and he just doesn't have that searing pace to his game, he will be a weapon in Aus and I like how he's come along (last summer in SA he was immense) but I think he'll be used as a tighter option ala Roberts.

It is odd to use such strong language to a winning team, but it highlights how poor I think Youngs was today, all in all most of the lions showed justification in selection, except Tom Youngs who continues to scare the bejeesus out of me!

How is it killing Cole? he rarely struggles in the scrum whilst playing alongside T. Youngs, todays problems were on Munipola's side (which lets not forget isn't our first choice). Constantly poor thowing? yeah he has the odd brain fart but i wouldn't say he's consistently poor. He's shown his carrying ability in many games including against Toulon (as well as the other ones mentioned above). I just don't get the fear you have, he's a hooker playing for England, he's won player of the season, he's been selected to tour with the lions. You telling me all those people involved in those decisions are massively wrong?

By no means is he the finished article, but he has the makings of being a damn good player and no wear near as poor as your making out.

[thebluesmancometh]

Blues, I have to disagree with your appraisal of Youngs' carrying ability. When he came on against france in 6n he made a huge impact with his carrying (1 big game). Against the Ospreys he made a great break and his carrying again was outstanding (2 big game) and then today he made another break and just puts in hits consistently (3 big game), oh and dare I forget his performance v NZ.

Your qualms about his set piece are very understandable but his work around the park is what stands him out from all other British and Irish hookers IMO.

Well his workrate is never in question, neither is his mobility, but 3 linebreaks in 3 games (over the course of a season, and in which 2 club teams were destroyed and the int team were the worst Ive ever seen them) isn't that impressive. Infact for every linebreak you mention he probably lost posession through lineouts plenty more in each game, today he misthrew 3 (one rescued by Parling) he missed a few V France, a few more V Italy and a few more V Wales. So for me 1 linebreak v 3 lineout losses is a no brainer.

Not to mention the Leicester scrum got a tonking today, V the Ospreys, V France, V Waels, and V Italy at times, Cole is a good scrummager, but he contributes to the downfall of the set peice (bread and butter for every pack)

His tackling is constant your right, but it is ineffective at times, as is his work in the tight and breakdown ability.

Like I said good club player, but isn't ready for int rugby yet, that said I wouldn't mind him being on the lions if the Hartley selection wasn't so risky. If Best and Hibbard were selected I'd say ye, why not, he's mobile and could do a job in the warm ups, and who knows he might surprise. Unfortunately now he's in a 2 dog fight for the test bench, and I don't think Hartley is top class but I'd prefer him to be that option, his lack of pure power can be made up for by his solid set peice, leadership, experience and hands.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Thought T Youngs was pretty good in the loose in the second half, blues, albeit he didn't show much in the first at all (turnover aside that led to the Goneva try)

I didn't realise he was on the park in the second half until he went off to a standing ovvation

First half his effort and workrate couldn't be faulted, but he was very ineffective, he has been very good this season, but for me he's a Mike Brown, Allen, and Nick Ester type, he'll be a very good club player all season, he'll do a great job for Leicester but he isn't international standard, and if he is anywhere near a test shirt I'll be watching through my fingers!

At least you're not Rory Best - he'll be chewing his fingers off!

He might as well, given his throwing in at the lineout during the 6N.

Cannae be easy with big Jim Hamilton flapping at you and putting you off n'all When're you arriving in Dublin next weekend?

[thebluesmancometh]

nathan

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the guy, what he's done is impressive, and he is a good player. He is a work in progress and he may well become a very good int player, but for me he is a real weakness for England currently.

From what I see of Cole he is a very strong scrummager getting targetted on his inside shoulder and constantly being turned in too easily, he's getting a bad rep and I remember the guys at both the rugby club and Scrum V talking about Coles inability to scrummage before the Wales game, I personally think they were all wrong and it's just a lack of support, grunt and nous from the hooker.

I really want to see Cole play with Hibbard inside him for the lions, it'll really highlight Coles abilities.

[nathan]

nathan

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the guy, what he's done is impressive, and he is a good player. He is a work in progress and he may well become a very good int player, but for me he is a real weakness for England currently.

From what I see of Cole he is a very strong scrummager getting targetted on his inside shoulder and constantly being turned in too easily, he's getting a bad rep and I remember the guys at both the rugby club and Scrum V talking about Coles inability to scrummage before the Wales game, I personally think they were all wrong and it's just a lack of support, grunt and nous from the hooker.

I really want to see Cole play with Hibbard inside him for the lions, it'll really highlight Coles abilities.

I know you're not slating him and it's your opinion but i (or a hell of alot of others players/fans/coaches) just don't see what your saying. I can understand the criticism of his throwing as it's sometimes dodgy.

[formerly known as Sam]

Not to mention the Leicester scrum got a tonking today, V the Osprey

One penalty conceded each, at no scrum was either Crane or Youngs under pressure. How is that a tonking? Vs the Ospreys the Ospreys lost their loosehead due to regular scrum infringement how's that being dominated?

The only game Cole has struggled up front this season was vs France where Domingo was awesome. Against Wales it was Jones doing the damage by binding on the arm and driving across the loosehead.

[thebluesmancometh]

nathan

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the guy, what he's done is impressive, and he is a good player. He is a work in progress and he may well become a very good int player, but for me he is a real weakness for England currently.

From what I see of Cole he is a very strong scrummager getting targetted on his inside shoulder and constantly being turned in too easily, he's getting a bad rep and I remember the guys at both the rugby club and Scrum V talking about Coles inability to scrummage before the Wales game, I personally think they were all wrong and it's just a lack of support, grunt and nous from the hooker.

I really want to see Cole play with Hibbard inside him for the lions, it'll really highlight Coles abilities.

I know you're not slating him and it's your opinion but i (or a hell of alot of others players/fans/coaches) just don't see what your saying. I can understand the criticism of his throwing as it's sometimes dodgy.

Sometimes? Go and find a game where he hasn't misthrown at least 3 balls, or where a scrum he has been involved in hasn't given away more penalties than it's won!

I can see why people like him, he is a good ball player, and is an excellent Leicester player, similarly to Ashton and Brown they both play extremely well in the AP, and europe, but the attribute that stands them out at club level isn't enough to carry them beyond their weaknesses on the international stage.

England had the worst lineout in the 6N, and one of the worst scrum records, does that sound like a good England team to you? England are renowned for doing the basics right, their set peice is brutal and they are very powerfull, players like Parling, Croft are very good lineout operators, Cole, Robshaw, Wood, Morgan provide the grunt and power, and I think someone like Lindsay will fit in nicely (in a season or 2) and Hartley is a nasty little **** (good if he's on your side) but Youngs just doesn't offer anything

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