Will the four Welsh regions be as poor next season ?

Well, what do we all think, surely the four regions cannot be as bad next season as they were this season, can they ? But, there are some serious departures on the horizon, North, Lydiate, Jamie Roberts so what can we expect, another limp season in Europe ? No teams qualifying for the play-offs ? It all seems very depressing and the regions really do need to step up or they will cease to exist, who wants to watch a side devoid of it's best players and loosing all the time. All our best players will be in England or France within the next couple of years unless the regions can do anything, so what do we have in store ? I foresee another baron season for the regions and anything other than at least getting out of their respective groups in the HC and reaching the play-offs in the Rabo will be seen as another failure, god it depresses me, please can somebody shine a ray of light for me, a glimmer of hope, and try to convince me otherwise.

Sigh . You after Andy Bowel's job at the Fail, Lord D?

Stone Motif wrote:Sigh . You after Andy Bowel's job at the Fail, Lord D?

No, I just cannot for the life of me see any light at the end of the tunnel, I can see the Dragons being even worst next season and probably end up bottom, unless they get a coach who is not afraid to give players a kick up the arris, the Blues probably have the worst coach of the lot and nothing ever seems to be his fault, the Scarets are losing players hand over fist and the Ospreys do not look as though they are going to be improving their squad for next year. Unless, Stone, you can tell me anything different and lift my spirits on the whole regional debacle.

personally i'm optimistic for the 4 regions next season dowlais.

Think the Scarlets if we sign an 8 & winger should reach the play offs again next season & be more competitive in Heiniken Cup. Think the Dragons could possibly be the Dark Horses next season and surprise us all. The Blues if they recruit a centre & replace Paterson should improve on this seasons showing. PT was got the wealth to bring in two quality signings. Finally think the Osprey have a good chance in the rabo and Europe, with Eli Walker & Hanno Dirksen back from injury.

It's hard to judge how the regions will do in Heiniken Cup until you see what groups they have been drawn in. But I wouldn't be surprised if one region qualifies from their group.

I knew it would be a difficult season for the Welsh teams. They're losing so many players it leaves a big hole to fill in each team.

You also have the prospect of other teams improving. Glasgow improved this season as well as Ulster. Next season I suspect Edinburgh, Munster, Treviso and maybe Connacht will be stronger. Even Zebre might win a game or two.

On the plus side I'd say the Blues should also improve their position. Scarlets probably overachieved in making the playoffs and Ospreys are always going to be there or thereabouts.

I think the regions will have a good year next season to be honest.

red_stag wrote:I think the regions will have a good year next season to be honest.

Where do you see the improvements coming from ? I'm sorry, but unless the regions have some hidden gems that none of us know about, like Cory Allen at the Blues, then I cannot see where they will improve, the regions do not have the cash to make team changing signings, just space fillers that are NWQ, and this does not fill me with optimism.

What depresses me is this logic that as most Welsh rugby fans only follow the international game, and as Welsh players are good enough to win the 6N, it must be possible for the same players to win the HC in order to be a success. No. Wales would by no means be good enough to win a Heineken Cup, and that's with the best players in the principality, players who are also effectively denied to their regions due to the demands of a competitor organisation.

This conundrum* needs to be addressed by all concerned.

* How can Wales produce two 6N wins, but the Regions have regressed in the HC.

But as many teams have found out, you need to up it a few notches in the HC. Talent will get you so far, but calmness under pressure is what Gatland has brought to Wales.

If the Regions can tap into the mentality that the national team have then you might see some improvement.

Perhaps it is a conspiracy as Gatland admitted that 'Regional failure gives Welsh Lions an advantage'

Hound of Harrow wrote:This conundrum* needs to be addressed by all concerned.

* How can Wales produce two 6N wins, but the Regions have regressed in the HC.

But as many teams have found out, you need to up it a few notches in the HC. Talent will get you so far, but calmness under pressure is what Gatland has brought to Wales.

If the Regions can tap into the mentality that the national team have then you might see some improvement.

I think simply that we have 1 top squad full of players in Wales, I.e. team Wales. Unfortunately, the players below that are not so good. Therefore, the Welsh team players are diluted in their 4 separate regions by being surrounded by below par players. I think to challenge in the HC you need near a full squad of international-quality players. Toulon have it. Leinster have/had it. Munster in their pomp too. Clermont now. Leicester and Wasps in the past. Toulouse obviously at their best. You can't win a HC, or get far, with only maybe 8 max international class players. Or in the case of the Dragons 2.

People calling for even less overseas players, and giving youth a chance instead (more than they already get, which is a lot), must be happy for the regions being where they are and performing as they do because they certainly won't get better by playing more kids from the local village.

So I think it's difficult for the regions to tap into the mentality of the Wales team as there are only a few players from the Wales team in each region (ok more at the ospreys, and they're probably the strongest in Europe which makes sense). The rest are not of HC business end standard.

Here's a left field thought: we all talk about Welsh players not performing at regional level, only performing for wales, and wanting to move abroad, but perhaps there's a slight feeling of disappointment when the players return to their regions. These grand slam winning players return to sides where they are surrounded by kids and cheap imports, when perhaps they feel they should be in teams with stars. No wonder they want to leave to join star studded teams. For me, the best way to get players to stay is to give them decent players to play with at club level. I'm all for blooding youngsters, but when you're a decent international constantly babysitting the next generation, where you're the senior pro at 25, then maybe a chance to rub shoulders with players as good (if not better) than you might be very appealing.

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:I think the regions will have a good year next season to be honest.

Where do you see the improvements coming from ? I'm sorry, but unless the regions have some hidden gems that none of us know about, like Cory Allen at the Blues, then I cannot see where they will improve, the regions do not have the cash to make team changing signings, just space fillers that are NWQ, and this does not fill me with optimism.

I can see Scarlets and Ospreys doing well next year on a European front.

For Scarlets they are building nicely. They have actually quite impressed me at times this season. They won big over Leinster, they travelled to Munster (first win in 15 meetings), crushed Tigers in the LV and had an especially good run in the playoffs when push came to shove. Aside from two poor runs of form (Dec-Jan and the month of May) they have actually done quite well. John Barclay will be a very good signing for them and Easterby plans to add another 2-3 players to the ranks.

Ospreys have blown hot and cold but have the core of an excellent committed side. They need to think about how they want to play I feel. They have a really cracking pack (Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Ryan Jones etc) and Dan Biggar is like a Welsh Ronan O'Gara. Maybe thats an insult in some circles but I think he can really be the key to a good European campaign. Win the battle up front, force the penalties kick the goals and let what are probably some less impressive backs do the business when they are on the front foot. As a Munster fan I've seen how successful such a game plan can be.

The regions have two obstacles IMO. The first is the seeding system which pairs them with an English team, a French team and what will in all likelihood be an Irish team.

The second is a lack of belief. Their players are as good enough. In fact this thread is testament to the lack of belief their fans have.

Cardiff and Dragons will find it tough but I think Dragons have actually recruited really well. Even the Blues have done OK though Roberts is a big hole to fill.

I dont see the cause for pessimism at all.

Will Roberts be that big a blow for the blues? He hardly ever plays for them

Golden wrote:Will Roberts be that big a blow for the blues? He hardly ever plays for them

On a European stage he will be a loss though Jenkins and Rees will be two experienced heads up front.

Blues and Ospreys should be better next season.

Scarlets need to sign a creative centre, they desperately miss Regan King. They have no playmaker in their midfield and the absence of Priestland has underscored that. They definitely need a ball carrying 8 and another centre. Williams and Davies isn't a balanced combination.

Easterby has done a great job toughening up the Scarlets pack only to see a lack of invention and accuracy behind the scrum leaving a talented back three to wither on the vine. King has not been replaced and thats half their problems in the backline right there. But I definitely think Scarlets and Ospreys can be playoff contenders.

Griff, so do you think it is lack of depth below international level?

Personally, I wouldn't say so. Wales have more strength in depth in a number of positions than for a long time.

A problem is losing quality players to other European teams isn't going to improve things next season imo. Unless quality replacements can step up through the Academies, or are brought in who are capable of performing (and winning) in the HC.

I said on another thread that the WRU salary cap is an issue. It is now holding back the Regions.

Notch wrote:Scarlets need to sign a creative centre, they desperately miss Regan King. They have no playmaker in their midfield and the absence of Priestland has underscored that. They definitely need a ball carrying 8 and another centre. Williams and Davies isn't a balanced combination.

Easterby has done a great job toughening up the Scarlets pack only to see a lack of invention and accuracy behind the scrum leaving a talented back three to wither on the vine. King has not been replaced and thats half their problems in the backline right there. But I definitely think Scarlets and Ospreys can be playoff contenders.

Notch they have Gareth Owen (he replaced Scott Williams against your beloved Ulster) who is very much in the mould of Gavin Henson. Adam Warren looks good as well. As I have recently stated, Williams and Davies will always start on reputation and not form. Shame. I do believe that Scarlets have a very good squad and Easterby hasn't got the best out of the players yet.

Hound of Harrow wrote:This conundrum* needs to be addressed by all concerned.

* How can Wales produce two 6N wins, but the Regions have regressed in the HC.

But as many teams have found out, you need to up it a few notches in the HC. Talent will get you so far, but calmness under pressure is what Gatland has brought to Wales.

If the Regions can tap into the mentality that the national team have then you might see some improvement.

There is no conundrum about it. It's just harder to win Heineken Cup matches than it is to win 6N matches, which is all Wales have ever managed since the advent of Gatlandball.

It's nothing to do with mentality though, it's a combination of numerous things...

Having a solid playing squad to work with (and not releasing your best players year after year)

Having a coach with any nous, and the conviction to impliment his gameplan.

And not having the governin g body focus all it's energy and effort on a team above yours, essentially leaving yours to rot!

Welsh clubs and regions have failed, both on and off the pitch. We were promised euro success and sustained success within 10 years, we were promised double figure attendances in their thousands week in week out, we were promised the best players, from Wales playing in Wales, and we were promised a heritage and history the regions would be proud of...

We were lied to

LordDowlais wrote:I foresee another baron season for the regions

I blame Friday knight matches.

With the recent official announcement of Jamie Robinson's retirement, it reminded me of a time when Cardiff Blues had strength in depth which is clearly not the case today. One example is at centre;

2008/2009 - Jamie Roberts, Tom Shanklin, Jamie Robinson, Gareth Thomas
2013/2014 - Hewitt, Evans, ?, ?

That being said, I do however predict a slight improvement of sorts on the field next season, but we still won't be "a joy to watch" as Brian Moore put it during that memorable thrashing of Gloucester.

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's nothing to do with mentality though, it's a combination of numerous things...

Having a solid playing squad to work with (and not releasing your best players year after year)

Having a coach with any nous, and the conviction to impliment his gameplan.

And not having the governin g body focus all it's energy and effort on a team above yours, essentially leaving yours to rot!

Welsh clubs and regions have failed, both on and off the pitch. We were promised euro success and sustained success within 10 years, we were promised double figure attendances in their thousands week in week out, we were promised the best players, from Wales playing in Wales, and we were promised a heritage and history the regions would be proud of...

We were lied to

Do you have a link to this promise of European success?

I think you are being irrational again. Why can't you look for solution rather than try to exemplify failure.


The reason regional rugby is finding it tough to compete is the difference in financing and the make up of the squads.

If welsh rugby public can barely afford to watch four regions then what better alternative do we have.



I agree that the WRU have given the regions what looks like a long rope to hang themselves with, maybe it's not a bad idea.

I have to say I think this notion that the regions are over priced is genuinely bullspit!

For Dragons v Munster I had pals (grown men) who bough tickets at Rodney Parade for £7.

Ospreys have a buy one get one free scheme. Blues and Scarlets are very cheap too.

Most expensive tickets cost £25 and they are the very highest price it seems. Most tickets are half that cost.

People have funny notions when you suggest that as they start adding in the cost of loads of burgers and pints which doesn't need to be the case. Wrong priorities.

Valid points Red Stag, but the attendances argument has little to do with the competitiveness of the regions. An extra 1000 turning up isn't going to alter the funding gap significantly.

Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

red_stag wrote:Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

And this is why I am so pessimistic, there are "no single valid reasons" why any of our regions performances are so poor, yet, here we are. Heres a question to the supporters on here who think I am talking out of my arris when I go on about NWQ players and under achieving performances, why do you think your region has not achieved anything this season ?

red_stag wrote:Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

Who were your pack? Which NIQ players were in the side? Who was in your coaching team? That's before we start talking about the difference between Euro rugby in 06 and 2013 and the deficiencies of the WRU...really not comparing like for like.

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

And this is why I am so pessimistic, there are "no single valid reasons" why any of our regions performances are so poor, yet, here we are. Heres a question to the supporters on here who think I am talking out of my arris when I go on about NWQ players and under achieving performances, why do you think your region has not achieved anything this season ?

I've told you, the regions are 'poor' relative to the hardest competition in world rugby. You are basing this comparison on the spurious logic that because Wales won a 6N they are world beaters. The single valid reason you want is they are not supported by their union to succeed, unlike their counterparts abroad.

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

And this is why I am so pessimistic, there are "no single valid reasons" why any of our regions performances are so poor, yet, here we are. Heres a question to the supporters on here who think I am talking out of my arris when I go on about NWQ players and under achieving performances, why do you think your region has not achieved anything this season ?

To be fair though at the time of the HEC pool rounds the Ospreys were missing three Tighthead props, two hookers, two locks and two or three wingers, also missing Beck our creative inside centre for a few games.

We do have the tools to be competitive, but an injury list like that would cripple most decent teams that cost under 15m a year to run.

Despite that we still smashed Toulouse 17-6 at the Liberty.

Dragons have signed an Argentinian tighthead, so theoretically that means he should be better than what is available to them at the moment, a promising South African lock, and Talei for the back row. So they should really improve in the pack, although another decent loosehead signing would be ideal IMO (A.N.Other, Parry, Chapero, Muller, Coombs, Talei, Cudd, Faletau looks a pretty decent pack). Also behind the scrum they have signed Richie Rees, who will offer a wise head, when Jon Evans' youthful fire is a bit risky, and also they have Burton who can offer a steadying boot for close games. With the pack and the backs looking a bit more experienced for the coming season, I can't see why the Dragons can not be targeting the third region spot, and also lookign to escape their group in the Amlin (if they get a decent draw).

Blues have brought in Matthew Rees and Gethin Jenkins who should really help sure up their creaking scrum, and have some talented youngsters in the backs who will be looking to push for team wales places in the coming season. Also there is talk of an artificial turf being installed for the start of the season, which would give a far better pitch for the likes of Halfpenny, Robinson, Owen, and Allen (if he gets selected) to utilise their speed and footwork, possibly giving them the opertunity to pick up bp wins in the dire weather, as opposed to having to just deal with the bog they have now.

Scarlets are looking at bringing in a number eight and a few wings. Giving our improvement in the pack this season, and the fact that the likes of Samson Lee and Rhodri Jones are still young (and improving), I would like to think that if we can get a battering ram of an eight (or even a specialis who knows the position well) then we should be able to grind out the hard games with the pack.

Ospreys, IMO they need to sign some wingers, as they really struggled when DIrkson and Walker were gone. But injury permitting there is no reason they will not be play-off contenders.


Add to these that it is a Lions year, and there are not too many regional lions left, we should get an upper hand on the provinces at the start of the season too.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

And this is why I am so pessimistic, there are "no single valid reasons" why any of our regions performances are so poor, yet, here we are. Heres a question to the supporters on here who think I am talking out of my arris when I go on about NWQ players and under achieving performances, why do you think your region has not achieved anything this season ?

I've told you, the regions are 'poor' relative to the hardest competition in world rugby. You are basing this comparison on the spurious logic that because Wales won a 6N they are world beaters. The single valid reason you want is they are not supported by their union to succeed, unlike their counterparts abroad.

Stone, I have not mentioned Wales, not once, for my thinking I think it is more to do with the coaching at the regions, and the lack of good scouting when it comes to signing NWQ players, you have mentioned on other posts before that you want your region to be able to grow as a business, and that you wish the WRU would kewep their noses out of the regional business, now you are saying they should be supporting the regions more. Anyway, I do not want to get into another Wee weeing match with you over this, I will however take any ray of hope you can give me to why you think the regions will improve next season.

I think I can understand the Welsh pessamissim,

Take Scarlets the top region we'll say,
they are losing
Matthew Rees
Owen Williams
George North
Tavis Knoyle

bringing in
John Barclay
Steven Shingler

and I'm sure that they will bring in others, but for me in the last few years, Scarlets have the problem of losing players they don't want to lose, and having to find replacements or hope young players step up. its worked ok for them so far, but a squad that is changing each team, by so much is hard to build in that team spirit and ethos.
The others have had the same issue.

Ok its not all doom and gloom, Scarlets will hopefully find the experience in the play off, and confidence of being a top 4 team, will boost them next year. They may even have a better squad next year. ospreys were rebiulding (like Munster) and I expect they will be better for it next year. Blues look to be recuiting and will be better next year.

However they wil prob get tough H-cup draws again, it will depend on who they get and if they can make it out of the group, if they do they may be able to put together a run to the semifinal/Final (Edinburgh did, and Scarlets and Ospreys are much better than them).

It's a bit depressing for the leauge that the Welsh don't seam to support the regions or take is as seriously as the Irish, Also that Glasgow do not get more support and they are a top team.

I really hope that this summer the WRU and regions can get together and put together a play to keep them competative, because I think in the league we are seeing Glasgow and the Provinces getting stronger, and the regions have to improve at the same rate just to keep up.

Treviso, Edinburgh, Connacht are getting stronger as well, if the WRU and regions don't work it out soon it may become to late for them to climb back up?

Also does anyone think that maybe part of the Welsh apathy to the league, is because fans of Cardiff, Newport etc who were used to seeing their team always at the top or near the top, of the Welsh Prem, and used to success most years, find it hard to watch a region that doesn't have much chance of silverware and suffer some bad defeats. We keep hearing how Newport etc used to attract xxx number of fans, but how many did they attract when they were finishing near the bottom of the Welsh prem?
Personally I think that a region has to win the H-cup to get the Welsh publics attention

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:Stone,

I just find it surprising how defeatist everyone is.

Munster won a Heineken Cup with Ian Dowling, Trevor Halstead, John Kelly, Anthony Horgan and Shaun Payne as its backline in 2006.

Even with my Munster hat on me I can admit thats a shoddy backline.

Ospreys have a cracking side IMO tailor made for doing well in Europe. A pack of international class forwards and a very reliable #10 (best in Wales IMO). There is not a single valid reason that Ospreys should not be winning a minimum of 4 Heineken Cup games a year.

And this is why I am so pessimistic, there are "no single valid reasons" why any of our regions performances are so poor, yet, here we are. Heres a question to the supporters on here who think I am talking out of my arris when I go on about NWQ players and under achieving performances, why do you think your region has not achieved anything this season ?

I've told you, the regions are 'poor' relative to the hardest competition in world rugby. You are basing this comparison on the spurious logic that because Wales won a 6N they are world beaters. The single valid reason you want is they are not supported by their union to succeed, unlike their counterparts abroad.

Stone, I have not mentioned Wales, not once, for my thinking I think it is more to do with the coaching at the regions, and the lack of good scouting when it comes to signing NWQ players, you have mentioned on other posts before that you want your region to be able to grow as a business, and that you wish the WRU would kewep their noses out of the regional business, now you are saying they should be supporting the regions more. Anyway, I do not want to get into another Wee weeing match with you over this, I will however take any ray of hope you can give me to why you think the regions will improve next season.

Going back to your original post you list a number of regional woes, most if not all of which reflect the stifling effect the WRU have on them to some extent or other. You also claimed the regions have been poor, I am simply pointing out poor is a very relative term. You tell me, who are we comparing the regions to for them to be poor? As for the WRU, taking the shackles off the regions would be supporting them imo, and I've always said if they aren't prepared to do that then yes, they should stump up more money.

Poor in comparrison to other teams in our league. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have all got to the higher parts of the European competitions, and they are in the league final, Glasgow tooling our regions at home by fifty points, Treviso doing a number over the Scarlets the other week, need I go on ?

Kingshu wrote:
It's a bit depressing for the leauge that the Welsh don't seam to support the regions or take is as seriously as the Irish, Also that Glasgow do not get more support and they are a top team.

I really hope that this summer the WRU and regions can get together and put together a play to keep them competative, because I think in the league we are seeing Glasgow and the Provinces getting stronger, and the regions have to improve at the same rate just to keep up.

Treviso, Edinburgh, Connacht are getting stronger as well, if the WRU and regions don't work it out soon it may become to late for them to climb back up?

Also does anyone think that maybe part of the Welsh apathy to the league, is because fans of Cardiff, Newport etc who were used to seeing their team always at the top or near the top, of the Welsh Prem, and used to success most years, find it hard to watch a region that doesn't have much chance of silverware and suffer some bad defeats. We keep hearing how Newport etc used to attract xxx number of fans, but how many did they attract when they were finishing near the bottom of the Welsh prem?
Personally I think that a region has to win the H-cup to get the Welsh publics attention

Completely side-stepping the fact that the average casual rugby fan in Wales cares not a jot for rugby most of the year, and only really gets interested if there is a day on the lash on the cards, preferably involving getting one over on the English. The Rabo will never offer this ergo will never have mass appeal. The regional attendances have grown this season even with the relative plight of the regions so I'm not sure where you're getting off with the high-falutin' comments on support levels during the hard times. Relative to population size we do very well, as if attendances have any real bearing on competitiveness, which they don't. The thing you don't seem to grasp is that fixtures against Irish or Scottish teams will never fire the imagination of the Welsh public, and for info even in the height of Tony Brown's spending on Newport they didn't actually win much, and took worse beatings in Europe than the Dragons have ever had, so that's that little argument put to bed too.

LordDowlais wrote:Poor in comparrison to other teams in our league. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have all got to the higher parts of the European competitions, and they are in the league final, Glasgow tooling our regions at home by fifty points, Treviso doing a number over the Scarlets the other week, need I go on ?

Well yes actually, because I'm still struggling to get to grips with what you are bemoaning here. You want the regions to be better than Euro-level teams with a supportive union and loads more cash, is that it? If that's all your beef is then the regions had a decent season in the Rabo all things considered keeping up as well as they did...

Stone - attendances do have a hefty impact on things.

1) Simple financial costs -: If an average ticket price is say £15 (there are cheaper and dearer tickets granted), then an additional 1,000 fans through the turnstyles would be an additional £15k a match which works out as around an additonal £240k a year. Now if the Scarlets had pulled in those extra 1,000 fans then we would not have needed to sell North.

2) The more people you get into the Stadium, the more likely there is going to be a noisy atmosphere, which is rather useful for swaying the referee when it comes to fifty-fifty calls at the ruck or for forward passes etc. Sometimes that would equate to gaining a win, where an emptier, quieter stadium would have see a losing bp instead.

3) The more people that attend games the more the region can market their shirts etc, as there will be more of the 'sheep' out there who want to seem like part of the scene that will be willing to spend money to fit in. A good example is the number of Ospreys shirts that were flogged when they had their galacticos team. I know a few people who have Ospreys shirts, that honestly still think that Phillips plays for them. But it is money in the coffers.


That said, attendances are not the be all and end all of rugby, and teams can be successful without huge fan bases.

Stone,

If you dont like the Munster comparison (just 1 NIQ player in 2006 btw) then what about Edinburgh last year.

Even when the Welsh teams do well people dont rally behind them I find.

Ospreys have been Celtic League champions twice in the last 3 years. Cardiff Blues have been in Heineken Cup Semi Finals. So have the Scarlets. Ospreys have beaten Australia. Cardiff have won the Amlin Cup final.

That period from 2007-2009 was actually a great period for Welsh regional rugby and nobody gave to figs about them or recognised their achievements.

2007 - Scarlets make HEC Semi Finals winning 6/6 when the pool featured Toulouse, London Irish and Ulster. All Welsh final in the Rabo with Ospreys beating Cardiff Blues. Ospreys make the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2008 - Two Welsh teams make the Quarter Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the final of the Rabo. Ospreys win the Anglo Welsh cup.

2009 - Two Welsh teams make the Quater Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the Semi Finals of Heineken Cup (lose on penalties). Cardiff win the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2010 - Ospreys make quarter finals of Heineken. 1 point defeat in south of France. Cardiff Blues win the Amlin Cup. Ospreys win the Rabo league.

How much support did the Welsh regions get during those 4 years?

red_stag wrote:Stone,

If you dont like the Munster comparison (just 1 NIQ player in 2006 btw) then what about Edinburgh last year.

Even when the Welsh teams do well people dont rally behind them I find.

Ospreys have been Celtic League champions twice in the last 3 years. Cardiff Blues have been in Heineken Cup Semi Finals. So have the Scarlets. Ospreys have beaten Australia. Cardiff have won the Amlin Cup final.

That period from 2007-2009 was actually a great period for Welsh regional rugby and nobody gave to figs about them or recognised their achievements.

2007 - Scarlets make HEC Semi Finals winning 6/6 when the pool featured Toulouse, London Irish and Ulster. All Welsh final in the Rabo with Ospreys beating Cardiff Blues. Ospreys make the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2008 - Two Welsh teams make the Quarter Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the final of the Rabo. Ospreys win the Anglo Welsh cup.

2009 - Two Welsh teams make the Quater Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the Semi Finals of Heineken Cup (lose on penalties). Cardiff win the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2010 - Ospreys make quarter finals of Heineken. 1 point defeat in south of France. Cardiff Blues win the Amlin Cup. Ospreys win the Rabo league.

How much support did the Welsh regions get during those 4 years?

There were also a Amlin SF for the Dragons, and a Amlin QF for the Scarlets in there somewhere too ('07 Dragons?, '09 or '08 Scarlets)

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stone - attendances do have a hefty impact on things.

1) Simple financial costs -: If an average ticket price is say £15 (there are cheaper and dearer tickets granted), then an additional 1,000 fans through the turnstyles would be an additional £15k a match which works out as around an additonal £240k a year. Now if the Scarlets had pulled in those extra 1,000 fans then we would not have needed to sell North.

2) The more people you get into the Stadium, the more likely there is going to be a noisy atmosphere, which is rather useful for swaying the referee when it comes to fifty-fifty calls at the ruck or for forward passes etc. Sometimes that would equate to gaining a win, where an emptier, quieter stadium would have see a losing bp instead.

3) The more people that attend games the more the region can market their shirts etc, as there will be more of the 'sheep' out there who want to seem like part of the scene that will be willing to spend money to fit in. A good example is the number of Ospreys shirts that were flogged when they had their galacticos team. I know a few people who have Ospreys shirts, that honestly still think that Phillips plays for them. But it is money in the coffers.


That said, attendances are not the be all and end all of rugby, and teams can be successful without huge fan bases.

Don't agree sorry for one fact, there is hardly a pro sports team in the world that built success out of their support base.

Realistically speaking, it tends to work the other way around. The support is an outcome of things like private investment, sponsorships, tv deals etc. It is important to maintaining success but as much use as t1ts on a fish in terms of generating success in the first place.

red_stag wrote:Stone,

If you dont like the Munster comparison (just 1 NIQ player in 2006 btw) then what about Edinburgh last year.

Even when the Welsh teams do well people dont rally behind them I find.

Ospreys have been Celtic League champions twice in the last 3 years. Cardiff Blues have been in Heineken Cup Semi Finals. So have the Scarlets. Ospreys have beaten Australia. Cardiff have won the Amlin Cup final.

That period from 2007-2009 was actually a great period for Welsh regional rugby and nobody gave to figs about them or recognised their achievements.

2007 - Scarlets make HEC Semi Finals winning 6/6 when the pool featured Toulouse, London Irish and Ulster. All Welsh final in the Rabo with Ospreys beating Cardiff Blues. Ospreys make the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2008 - Two Welsh teams make the Quarter Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the final of the Rabo. Ospreys win the Anglo Welsh cup.

2009 - Two Welsh teams make the Quater Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the Semi Finals of Heineken Cup (lose on penalties). Cardiff win the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2010 - Ospreys make quarter finals of Heineken. 1 point defeat in south of France. Cardiff Blues win the Amlin Cup. Ospreys win the Rabo league.

How much support did the Welsh regions get during those 4 years?

You seem to be trying to create an argument out of my comments...I do agree with you in the main. My issue is with the statement there is not one single valid reason the regions can't be successful in Europe, which is absolutely barking.

The reason Welsh people don't get behind their teams is that hardly any of them have any real interest in rugby.

red_stag wrote:Stone,

If you dont like the Munster comparison (just 1 NIQ player in 2006 btw) then what about Edinburgh last year.

Even when the Welsh teams do well people dont rally behind them I find.

Ospreys have been Celtic League champions twice in the last 3 years. Cardiff Blues have been in Heineken Cup Semi Finals. So have the Scarlets. Ospreys have beaten Australia. Cardiff have won the Amlin Cup final.

That period from 2007-2009 was actually a great period for Welsh regional rugby and nobody gave to figs about them or recognised their achievements.

2007 - Scarlets make HEC Semi Finals winning 6/6 when the pool featured Toulouse, London Irish and Ulster. All Welsh final in the Rabo with Ospreys beating Cardiff Blues. Ospreys make the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2008 - Two Welsh teams make the Quarter Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the final of the Rabo. Ospreys win the Anglo Welsh cup.

2009 - Two Welsh teams make the Quater Finals of Heineken. Cardiff Blues make the Semi Finals of Heineken Cup (lose on penalties). Cardiff win the Anglo Welsh Cup Final.

2010 - Ospreys make quarter finals of Heineken. 1 point defeat in south of France. Cardiff Blues win the Amlin Cup. Ospreys win the Rabo league.

How much support did the Welsh regions get during those 4 years?

50,000+ went to the millstad to watch the blues/leicester game and most of them were the team wales crowd going because it was in the stadium and that it was a semi final. It still makes me shudder when i watch the tom james try and it shows a kid cheering in to the camera with a cardiff city shirt on. The probably is the regions have their fans and then there are the team wales fans who turn up when things are getting good. If the blues some how managed to get to the SF on the HEC next year, you would see them averaging about 9000 attendance at home then raking in 50000+ again because of the game.

Also, I am only comparing to this season as I think in my opinion that this has been the worst season for the regions since they were formed.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I am only comparing to this season as I think in my opinion that this has been the worst season for the regions since they were formed.

More like teams like Glasgow and Treviso are the best they have been since they were formed. The League is tougher than ever, largely because every other union but the Welsh understand the improtance of growing the game below international level.

French and English teams, get great support, but we can point that these teams have a lot of history, and th eregions only started in 2003, (even if Scarlets and Blues were clubs that stood alone).

Glasgow are another team I think should have bigger support being based in a big city, and being a very good team, however even Connacht currently attract larger crowds on average.

The question is why do teams in Wales and Scotland not pull in the supporter numbers we expect? (its not going to solve all the issues, but I'm sure the planning of the regions expected crowds to increase quicker than they have, leaving a bit of a hole in the accounts).

As Red Stag has shown that maybe we are wrong that success will bring in fans, as 07-10 was a very good period.

Edinburgh have gotten good support for big games, and I believe the regions do as well, its a matter of getting these fans to attend league games regularly. I believe that with the hype Sky will add to the big league games, that we will see these fans that attend the big games, to start attending more league games. Personally I believe the attendances of all the regions wil increase by a bigger % this year than they have in last few years, and I hope that they will start attracting the crowds that they planed.

Stone Motif wrote:Don't agree sorry for one fact, there is hardly a pro sports team in the world that built success out of their support base.

Realistically speaking, it tends to work the other way around. The support is an outcome of things like private investment, sponsorships, tv deals etc. It is important to maintaining success but as much use as t1ts on a fish in terms of generating success in the first place.

Ever heard of Exeter Chiefs?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Don't agree sorry for one fact, there is hardly a pro sports team in the world that built success out of their support base.

Realistically speaking, it tends to work the other way around. The support is an outcome of things like private investment, sponsorships, tv deals etc. It is important to maintaining success but as much use as t1ts on a fish in terms of generating success in the first place.

Ever heard of Exeter Chiefs?

Also i'm sure Rangers will walk Division 3, 2 and 1, as they have such a large supporter base over there leauge rivals for the next few years, you'r hardly suggesting that having such a large support isn't a big advantage over the other teams in thier division?

Poor metaphorically or financially?

Aren't those two issues the two big issues? And isn't it a little clear that solving one of those issues once and for all might allow the other to prosper.

Performances can begin to improve finances. Finances, wisely spent and managed, might improve performances. But one of them needs solving and a serious desire to solve them (not looking at you regional and WRU bosses )

Regarding player exodus I really don't think we have to worry to much. France is the big threat and if you compare the amount of players heading from S15 and the English Premiership to France, the couple we have lost is no big deal.

To be honest the big problem Welsh Regions have is they lack an identity on the pitch or clear game plan. If you could combine the Ospreys pack with the Scarlets attacking game you would have a good formula. The problem has been that apart from the Ospreys none of the other Regions are operating from a platform. You cant win anything without a good tight five. Scarlets experienced it against Ulster who basically obliterated them in that area.

The real issue is not to keep talent in Wales as much as it is about driving standards of performance on the pitch. Some of our facilities are the best in the world. We need to work on developing the attacking aspects of our game. Our pitches don't allow us to develop our style 60% of the season.

Some of the coaches just don't seem to have a clue and that's not helping.

For example, in the Rabbo Dragons have a clear advantage because we are affected less than anyone else with call ups. Edwards has even gone out and bought a raft of unkown foreigners. Problem is they lack quality in the tight 5 and it shows whenever they play anyone with a good set of forwards.
Not expecting them to improve much on this season if I'm honest. We lack a hard edge in our game.