Federer v Nadal - XXX

First topic message reminder :

At this juncture in their careers, with injuries, other players rising and Djokovic's ascent to world No 1, one must surely treasure the renewal of this most prolific rivalry of Men's Tennis in "big matches." We don't know how many or even if, there will be another one. Regardless of the head to head, who's won what, at which time, during this rivalry, one has a sense of great anticipation when these two juggernauts meet.

With a great deal on the line, moving into next week's French Open, there is much to "prove" for both players. This will be a battle both of them wish dearly to win.

Nadal going for his 7th Rome title, 24th TMS title, 41st clay court title and 56th career title.

Federer hoping to lift his first Rome title, 22nd TMS title, 77th career title.

Nadal leads the head to head 19 - 10 matches, but holds a 12 - 2 edge in their clay court rivalry, plus a commanding 8 - 2 edge in the Major finals. Some would say it's a foregone conclusion that Nadal will take this meeting but if there was a time for Federer to "pounce," surely this is one of the opportune times to do so. The two tend to bring out the best in each other, and one just hopes that they can both play superlative tennis for the duration of the match. It's 7 years since their epic 5 set, 5 hour and 5 minute final in Rome, where Federer held match points, only for Nadal to edge the match in a final tiebreak.

Am really looking forward to it, regardless of what it might or might not, portend for Roland Garros.

2013 ATP Masters Series Hard QF Nadal 6-4, 6-2 19 Nadal's 1st HC tournament in a year! Went on to win the title!
Indian Wells
2012 ATP Masters Series Hard SF Federer 6-3, 6-4 10 1st outdoor hardcourt win since Miami 2005 for Federer
Indian Wells
2012 Australian Open Hard S Nadal 6-7, 6-2, 7-6, 6-4 18 N's 8th win from 10 meetings in Major tournaments
Melbourne
2011 Tennis Masters Cup Hard RR Federer 6-3, 6-0 9
London
2011 Roland Garros Clay F Nadal 7-5, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1 17 Win's 5th match, and 4th final v Federer at French Open; ties Borg at 6 titles
France
2011 ATP Masters Series Clay S Nadal 5-7, 6-1, 6-3 16 1st time winner of 1st set hasn't won match!
Madrid
2011 ATP Masters Series Hard S Nadal 6-3, 6-2 15
Miami
2010 Tennis Masters Cup Hard F Federer 6-3, 3-6, 6-2 8
London
2010 ATP Masters Series Clay F Nadal 6-4, 7-6 (5) 14 1st Man to win 3 straight TMS titles, and all 3 on clay for the season
Madrid
2009 ATP Masters Series Clay F Federer 6-4, 6-4, 7
Madrid
2009 Australian Open Hard F Nadal 7-5, 3-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-2 13 N saved 13 of 18 bp's; N played 5 set SF, day after F played 3 set SF!!
Melbourne
2008 Wimbledon Grass F Nadal 6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 9-7 12 N had MP's in 4S TB
Great Britain
2008 Roland Garros Clay F Nadal 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 11 Utter destruction!! Worst professional loss for Federer EVER!
France
2008 ATP Masters Series Clay F Nadal 7-5, 6-7, 6-3 10 F led 5-1 1st set, 5-2 2nd set
Hamburg
2008 ATP Masters Series Clay F Nadal 7-5, 7-5 9 F led 4-0 1st set, led 2nd set
Monte Carlo
2007 Tennis Masters Cup Hard S Federer 6-4, 6-1 6
China
2007 Wimbledon Grass F Federer 7-6(7), 4-6, 7-6(3), 2-6, 6-2 5 N had 4 breakpoints in 1st 2 service games 5th set, didn't break…could have won 6-2 !
Great Britain
2007 Roland Garos Clay F Nadal 6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4 8
France
2007 ATP Masters Series Clay F Federer 2-6, 6-2, 6-0 4 Ended N's 81 CC match streak. 1st CC final N has lost.
Hamburg
2007 ATP Masters Series Clay F Nadal 6-4, 6-4 7
Monte Carlo
2006 Tennis Masters Cup Hard S Federer 6-4, 7-5 3
China
2006 Wimbledon Grass F Federer 6-0, 7-6(5), 6-7(2), 6-3 2
Great Britain
2006 Roland Garos Clay F Nadal 1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6(4) 6
France
2006 ATP Masters Series Clay F Nadal 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5) 5 F had match points !
Rome
2006 ATP Masters Series Clay F Nadal 6-2, 6-7(2), 6-3, 7-6(5) 4
Monte Carlo
2006 Dubai Hard F Nadal 2-6, 6-4, 6-4 3
U.A.E.
2005 Roland Garos Clay S Nadal 6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3 2
France
2005 ATP Masters Series Hard F Federer 2-6, 6-7(4), 7-6(5), 6-3, 6-1 1 N had match point !
Miami
2004 ATP Masters Series Hard R32 Nadal 6-3, 6-3 1
Miami

Let's hope it's not the last career meeting for these two giants of the modern game, but that it IS one of their most hard fought and suspenseful matches, and enjoy the "moment...." All too soon, this rivalry will end, as it must, but hopefully not tomorrow!

I didnt get to see the match yesterday but i have to say I find it mind boggling at this stage in their careers that Federer has not figured out a Plan B for playing Nadal. It is like he has no game plan whatsoever, it is so surprising for a player of Federer's incredible talent.

It is like he panics every time he goes out on court against him. Surely Annocone as his coach must also see some areas to attack or at least try something different. Why does Federer not try to strike the backhand side of Nadal earlier in the rally, he is bound to get short balls to attack. I am not saying on clay he will beat nadal but it seems even on hard courts Nadal has Federer's number a lot of the time.

I just find it amazing that after all these matches between the two that Federer has not developed a plan B. There is no doubting its a bad match up of styles but given his talent and all round game, surely Federer must have more to offer. Very strange indeed, it just seems to be so easy for nadal to beat him

CommonSense wrote:

break_in_the_fifth wrote:

CommonSense wrote:

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Though I don't think anyone expected Fed to win I think most expected him to put up some kind of resistance and take at least a set if not making one or both of them very competitive. Match up issue or none, he's a much better player than, as some have mentioned, someone like Ferrer. Perhaps Fed doesn't see the difference between losing in a close match or losing like he did and doesn't care anymore. Maybe he knows something we don't. Up til now he was the greatest for me and seeing as I don't use statistics to make the final decision, this consistent loss of form when needed the most is really starting to affect his standing in my eyes.

Sorry, could I say that you're a bit unfair in criticizing the best (and aging) player in tennis history for the way he wants to play his matches. He didn't hoard the best tennis records thus far for no reasons. I guess we have to take the sweet with the sour at the same time being a sports fan. It is our own responsibility to stand up and deal with the losses of our chosen player. How can we realistically expect Roger NOT to lose form going on 32? He's just as human as you or I. The good thing is you always have the freedom to chose another player to replace Roger in your eyes.

Well I was thinking of starting a thread comparing him to Sampras... I'm not on about overall form, of course that has declined. I'm just on about how he shows up to his matches with his biggest rival e.g. FO 2011 final was extremely sour but Fed's effort and performance was commendable. Can't he put just half of that mental effort in against Rafa in big matches? Like I said though I'm in no position to criticise which I wasn't and maybe he knows something that we don't.

Break--I encourage you to please do the FED-SAM comparison thread. I think you'll renew your admiration for how much greater Roger is when you line up and evaluate their respective records side by side. Interestingly, Sampras was the first one to render the GOAT status to Fed when the Swiss won FO.

I also agree with you that it's very disappointing and frustrating to see that Fed didn't bother to make the match just a little more competitive. Like I questioned in my first post above, how could he possibly have played worse than in IW vs Nadal recently when he had a real bad problem? I'd like to think that the one with the most experience winning slams must have something up his sleeves.

And btw, I don't think LF was joking about Fed tanking if you consider that in the relevant context of the FO seeding.

I don't consider records as that important though. Once they've got to around 10 slams, they're all the same to me. The number they win more or less than this amount, to me, is circumstancial. The rest I just judge on what I see which is why I don't rate Nadal much and regarded Fed the way I did. I didn't think it was possible that continuing to play could harm his legacy in any way but things like this when comparing with the last great player don't look good. While Sampras was physically able, he never let something like this happen on a consistent basis to any player. I understand this was on clay and Sampras wouldn't have faired better but this match was kind of more the last straw for me. If there was a credible reason for every loss to Nadal then I wouldn't mind the H2H being 30-0 but as we've both acknowledged, he put in good performances earlier in the week only for it to all disappear. Can either of us say we're surprised though.

As for LF, well the whole seeding thing was a bit of a joke anyway and I don't think anyone cares. It's just an ego thing who gets seeded where or not being seeded in the top 4. It really isn't the end of the world for anyone to lose one round earlier.

HM Murdoch wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:I agree with H-N re: Fed's back. I think he started wearing that 'undershirt' at the AO this year, but it might have been before then. It's clearly an on-going problem that's giving him trouble.

Is the undershirt not simply because he's hit an age where people start wearing vests?

It's one of the milestones of ageing.

I suspect that back home he also has an old pair of jeans for wearing "round the house" and a bit of wood in his shed that is especially for stirring paint.

Jeans with an elasticated waistband?

slashermcguirk wrote:I didnt get to see the match yesterday but i have to say I find it mind boggling at this stage in their careers that Federer has not figured out a Plan B for playing Nadal. It is like he has no game plan whatsoever, it is so surprising for a player of Federer's incredible talent.

It is like he panics every time he goes out on court against him. Surely Annocone as his coach must also see some areas to attack or at least try something different. Why does Federer not try to strike the backhand side of Nadal earlier in the rally, he is bound to get short balls to attack. I am not saying on clay he will beat nadal but it seems even on hard courts Nadal has Federer's number a lot of the time.

I just find it amazing that after all these matches between the two that Federer has not developed a plan B. There is no doubting its a bad match up of styles but given his talent and all round game, surely Federer must have more to offer. Very strange indeed, it just seems to be so easy for nadal to beat him

On hard courts the H2H is 6-6, so Fed has Nadal's number an equal number of times, despite the bad match up. Rafa has won most of the 5-setters, but I put that down to being physically able to last the course more than Fed.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:I agree with H-N re: Fed's back. I think he started wearing that 'undershirt' at the AO this year, but it might have been before then. It's clearly an on-going problem that's giving him trouble.

Is the undershirt not simply because he's hit an age where people start wearing vests?

It's one of the milestones of ageing.

I suspect that back home he also has an old pair of jeans for wearing "round the house" and a bit of wood in his shed that is especially for stirring paint.

Jeans with an elasticated waistband?

More than likely. Old but not yet old enough to be considered 'retro'.

Although, having seen some of Eurovision at the weekend, I'm not sure that elasticated waistbands have fallen from fashion yet in much of Europe.

Right, that's ageism and xenophobia covered. For my next trick... casual racism!

I'll lead you off there HM- white men cant dance

kingraf wrote:I'll lead you off there HM- white men cant dance

Fred Astaire? Rudolph Nureyev? Me?
(well, 2 out of 3...)

kingraf wrote:I'll lead you off there HM- white men cant dance

Indeed. Although I think they may have the edge at Morris dancing.

And long may they keep it!!

kingraf wrote:And long may they keep it!!

Don't be jealous.

We all know that natural rhythm is no substitute for sticks and handkerchiefs....!

I believe the line is "white men can't jump."
I got bare swag.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CS you can say what you want about any tennis player (except libel), and about other poster's arguments, but not about other posters themselves.

Julius, I have answered to your request at 10:43. Just curious, any further comments re my view in that reply? If not, I'm forced to conclude that I've been unfairly treated. Of course I'd respect the house rule IF it were equally applied to all posters. But this is not the case with me. A certain poster has been allowed to insult me blatantly by calling me a "wum" and basically telling me to get lost while I'm told not to say anything "about other posters themselves."

LuvSports! wrote:I believe the line is "white men can't jump."
I got bare swag.

You're up with the kids, aren't you?

CommonSense wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CS you can say what you want about any tennis player (except libel), and about other poster's arguments, but not about other posters themselves.

Julius, I have answered to your request at 10:43. Just curious, any further comments re my view in that reply? If not, I'm forced to conclude that I've been unfairly treated. Of course I'd respect the house rule IF it were equally applied to all posters. But this is not the case with me. A certain poster has been allowed to insult me blatantly by calling me a "wum" and basically telling me to get lost while I'm told not to say anything "about other posters themselves."

TBH, I thought you were wumming a bit, but not enough to do anything about it, or when you got called on it.
Maybe you really do think Fed tanked the match and that Rafa washes his hands during a match, but let's face it, there's no real evidence of either.
You can report any post to Mods/Admins and you can report any Mod i.e. me, to the Admins, if you're not happy.

JuliusHMarx wrote:TBH, I thought you were wumming a bit, but not enough to do anything about it, or when you got called on it.
Maybe you really do think Fed tanked the match and that Rafa washes his hands during a match, but let's face it, there's no real evidence of either.
You can report any post to Mods/Admins and you can report any Mod i.e. me, to the Admins, if you're not happy.

Personally, JHM, I don't know how you can allow such heinous insults as "you are wumming".

And when Haddie used the "wink" smiley... well, I was shocked and appalled at the level of vile abuse.

I fully intend to write a stiff letter* to the editor of the Radio Times.

Down with that sort of thing.

*I'll write it on cardboard.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CommonSense wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CS you can say what you want about any tennis player (except libel), and about other poster's arguments, but not about other posters themselves.

Julius, I have answered to your request at 10:43. Just curious, any further comments re my view in that reply? If not, I'm forced to conclude that I've been unfairly treated. Of course I'd respect the house rule IF it were equally applied to all posters. But this is not the case with me. A certain poster has been allowed to insult me blatantly by calling me a "wum" and basically telling me to get lost while I'm told not to say anything "about other posters themselves."

TBH, I thought you were wumming a bit, but not enough to do anything about it, or when you got called on it.
Maybe you really do think Fed tanked the match and that Rafa washes his hands during a match, but let's face it, there's no real evidence of either.

1) Not maybe. I do honestly believe Fed
tanked the match, although I could be totally wrong. Yes, Fed’s always had back
problem. But with any injury there’s a huge difference bet when the ailment is
under control and when it is out of control. We all saw that it was out of
control in his last encounter with nadal, yet he played better then than
yesterday when it was under control. Just my speculation.


2) Yes, there’s evidence. Nadal asked
for water to wash his hand at 30:30 in the middle of a game in Miami 2012,
Nadal vs Nishikori. I saw it with my own eyes along with thousands of fans who
attended this Miami match. If I’m not mistaken, I remember you joking about “pulling a
Nishikori” afterwards. It happened in exactly the way it’s described by one
poster who witnessed it too, here:


http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-418882.html

Ah, I thought you meant with soap and water, not a quick rinse. I don't remember that one, or a Nishikori-related gag, but at my age I don't remember what I had for breakfast.

Not surprising really that Lord Federer lost to the spanish moonballer in yesterday's Rome Final. To have a chance of beating the spanish moonballer, the guy playing against him has to be able to hit the ball consistently hard and flat past/through him. And from those players currently playing on the men's tour only 3 guys look to have the game/ability to do this. One is Novak Djokovic, the second is Andy Murray and the third is the spanish moonballer's biggest nightmare and nemesis - Lukas Rosol. Another guy capable of hitting through the spanish moonballer's defences is Robin Soderling but he isn't playing any tennis at the moment.

But its amazing what you can achieve when you are a Spanish Moonballer !!!

JuliusHMarx wrote:Ah, I thought you meant with soap and water, not a quick rinse. I don't remember that one, or a Nishikori-related gag, but at my age I don't remember what I had for breakfast.

Nah, you can't be THAT old.

Everyone forgets now and then. Just that we should not make our own forgetfulness (read: failures) others' problem. I hardly post here, but when I do I post seriously and would like to be taken as such. That's why I don't understand how I ended up being perceived as a wum.

Nishikori lost 6-4 6-4. So it hardly took away any "wining momentum".

Nadal is not perfect, but this is a storm in a tea cup. Why didnt he go wash his hands when he was 0*-5 against Gulbis? Why didnt he try something similar vs Soderling at RG'09? Like I said on a seperate threat, these guys lose a lot through out their careers (Nadal has lost 124 times) To take isolated incidents (and in this case a once-off) as evidence that these are bad people is a little unfair. You can do anything you want in the gap between points (time allowing), if Kei doesnt object (he didnt), and the umpire allows it (he did) then I fail to see how this is an issue.

kingraf wrote:Nishikori lost 6-4 6-4. So it hardly took away any "wining momentum".

Nadal is not perfect, but this is a storm in a tea cup. Why didnt he go wash his hands when he was 0*-5 against Gulbis? Why didnt he try something similar vs Soderling at RG'09? Like I said on a seperate threat, these guys lose a lot through out their careers (Nadal has lost 124 times) To take isolated incidents (and in this case a once-off) as evidence that these are bad people is a little unfair. You can do anything you want in the gap between points (time allowing), if Kei doesnt object (he didnt), and the umpire allows it (he did) then I fail to see how this is an issue.

Dont you just have to wonder sometimes king ?... are you having a pleasant Monday ?? I am coz Rafa won yesterday

Off/On Toppic: The most important thing of Sunday final, was that Djoker was not there

Back on topic: Is there anyone one else even mildly irritated with the line 'He just wasnt there today' when Fed loses? Especially since whenever he does win, 'Thats what Fed is capable of against Nadal'. Nearly half of Feds wins over Nadal have come at the YEC, when Nadal traditionally just wants to cross the whitewash. They still count (they have to, otherwise the rivalry is horribly one-sided)

Im not a Fed fan, but I do like watching him, its just that that particular excuse grates me. You dont go from not having dropped a set the entire tourney ti vanquished unless the guy opposite you is seriously good. Of course mental issues come to play, but if they didnt, it wouldnt be humans playing, just some random cyborgs.

I look forwad to seeing Fedal XXXI, hopefully in the next few months. Federer should have a better chance on the other surfaces, but I just think Best-of-Five, Nadal will eventually break his back (hand) as he has so much time to place the straws there

HN- I didnt enjoy my Monday actually. Was at the licensing department trying to explain the relative physical impossibilities of my two speeding fines.
1) That is not my car (I drive a Ford, car in question was a tacky Japanese make)
2) That is not me (I was halfway across the country covering a marathon on said date)
3) My car doesnt go that fast. (was clocked at 225kmh on a free way. And then 150 at mall... 100km away... 10 minutes later.

Yeah yeah!!!!

kingraf wrote:Back on topic: Is there anyone one else even mildly irritated with the line 'He just wasnt there today' when Fed loses? Especially since whenever he does win, 'Thats what Fed is capable of against Nadal'. Nearly half of Feds wins over Nadal have come at the YEC, when Nadal traditionally just wants to cross the whitewash. They still count (they have to, otherwise the rivalry is horribly one-sided)

Im not a Fed fan, but I do like watching him, its just that that particular excuse grates me. You dont go from not having dropped a set the entire tourney ti vanquished unless the guy opposite you is seriously good. Of course mental issues come to play, but if they didnt, it wouldnt be humans playing, just some random cyborgs.

I look forwad to seeing Fedal XXXI, hopefully in the next few months. Federer should have a better chance on the other surfaces, but I just think Best-of-Five, Nadal will eventually break his back (hand) as he has so much time to place the straws there

Yes I agree King especially when you see these sort of headlines

http://sport.uk.msn.com/tennis/federer-pays-tribute-to-nadal

The inference is that Rafa´s wins over Roger because Roger never played well when even the man himself knows that Rafa causes him more than a few problems .. in the main on clay.. but he admits openly that Rafa is the player he has to contend with.

Oh come on, like there's 2 kingraf's out there, with the same hairstyle and loud jacket

is anyone else curious about what players like Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Ferrer, Blake Youzhny and Robredo think when watching Federer vs Nadal? A guy who they struggled so much against and probably considered him untouchable, to then see him mauled like he is against Nadal or just seem a little frail.

Must leave them scratching their heads. Or maybe they think, I can't believe he was our generation and he is still fighting tooth and nail with these youngsters while we are on our last legs or already retired?

Fed probably didn't show up yesterday i.e. not at his best. But if he had been, he would probably have lost anyway, just held his serve a bit more.
Bottom line is Rafa's better on clay by some margin. Everyone knows it, even if they don't all say it.

CAS I cant help thinking that when Roger walked out on court yesterday he probably knew (having seen Rafa against Berdych) what he was going to get at the hands of the man that has no heart when he walks out on court. He must have felt like the gladiators did when they let the lions into the arena. Give him his due I bet after that first set he would have wished he could have walked off court and said Ok Rafa I give up. But he didn´t and I REALLY REALLY felt for him

Julian- I swear Im innocent!! I didnt even know that Chana makes Hatchbacks until I got the mail.


Obviously my car is great, but no matter how I tried I couldnt clock 100 kilos in 10 minutes!!!

Hate to say this, kingraf - but it's Julius, not Julian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groucho_Marx

100 KILOS equals roughly 15 and half STONE..

No wonder Have a pork pie !!!!

You're toast kingraf, warm buttery toast.
Maybe with some jam on there as well and a nice bit of fruit, a banana lets say. Reading a good book in the sun with an ice pop and some apple tango .

SOrry what were we talking about?

Julius- Im sorry mate, Im just mentally distraught. The fine Im facing is three months of my salary!

HN- Might as well, they dont serve those where Im going!!


LS- Mate, its tough right now. Luckily my workplace looks after its own and I have the best lawyers Trade Unions can buy. Im just upset that I cant buy a Mercedes A-Class this September

Try your hand at cycling!
Best thing to do, really is nothing like a good, long, hard cycle with teenage wasteland ringing in your ears.

You are alive. And you stand up and see the lights on the buildings and everything that makes you wonder. And you're listening to that song and that drive with the people you love most in this world. And in this moment I swear, we are infinite!

LS- Mate I wouldnt cycle on South African roads if you paid me a Kings Ransom. Thats a death sentence. In SA, road rules are more like Guidelines on What to do When Driving near Traffic Police Vehicles. The rest of time its one second away from a 24-car pile up

This article should be noted in view of the discussions that have taken place on this thread today.. warning however, all Fed fans should look away now.

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-05-19/12474.php

I'd be surprised if Rafa ends with a superior head to head over Novak, it was once 14-4! Now 19-15

Haddie-nuff wrote:This article should be noted in view of the discussions that have taken place on this thread today.. warning however, all Fed fans should look away now.

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2013-05-19/12474.php

Also from those stats - Novak has more wins over Rafa than Federer and Ferrer combined!

In fact, Novak is Rafa's most frequent opponent (34 matches) and the head to head is fairly even (19-15 to Rafa. Put another way, Rafa has won 56% of the matches, Novak 44%).

Federer v Nadal is now seemingly etched in stone as the great rivalry but I think Rafa v Novak is a much better rivalry. For a start, it's actually a rivalry, not a complete blow out!

I think the best rivalry is Roger vs Novak, never certain who will win. Nadal is gonna beat Federer and Novak is gonna beat Nadal. Murray vs Nadal I think has potential in the coming years, where I think it will become very even.

The Murray vs Fed rivalry is strange, someone is always clearly better on the day, how Fed took it to 5 in Aus I will never know. Andy vs Novak is the least entertaining shot making wise as they both never really choose to be the aggressor, in the other match ups theres always the aggressor and the defender, when they play they both are quite passive with each other.

Yes, I like Roger v Novak too.

The match up doesn't stifle Roger in the same way as a match v Rafa does, so he can produce magic more often.

Likewise, I think playing an opponent who doesn't grind at the baseline brings the best out of Novak.

Novak and Nadal dont bring the best out in each other... they BOTH grind.
I hate their matches they are slug fests.


I think Rafa plays better tennis when he plays Roger .and Andy

Yes, Nadal doesn't like playing grinders such as Djokovic or Ferrer because the onus is on him being aggressive which he's not always in good mindset for doing. Make no mistake Djokovic's gameplan vs Nadal is to grind him down. Nadal sometimes becomes way TOO defensive against these types of players when he has to be aggressive against them. This is what gave him the 3-0 lead over Djokovic in 2012. The Saturday (Berdy) and Sunday (Fed) macthes show he's re-found his aggressive mojo as we head to RG, so I think he'll adopt a more aggressive mindset against the likes of Ferrer & Co in future. It just took him a couple of months to figure out his optimal attack balance. Djokovic will always be a challenge though, he has to stay aggressive and attack the FH.

Best combo: Fedal
Worst combo: Mukovic
Djokerer > Murderer

Why do people love watching Federer/Nadal? It's obvious and probably has very little to do with who wins or how unbalanced the H2H between them is.

1) They are the only players individually who are capable of filling a tennis court wherever they play. Including 1st round matches against the number 126 in the world... Getting both on the same court will always be special.

2) Both have styles that are individual, unique and beautiful. You can't watch something similar you have to watch the genuine thing. How good is it that their styles are opposite? That produces the most watchable matches (McEnroe/Borg, Evert/Navratalova)

3) They have produced magic before... they may do so again. Some of their matches have been one sided like Sundays. I can certainly remember a few WTF's. But to get such a one sided result against a quality opponent requires some exceptional play. Rafa in Rome and Roger in the WTF were just too good. Watching a player play "too good" can be wonderful as long as you don't get too upset with the result. Federer fans shouldn't get upset by Sunday I doubt Federer himself was.

4) The sportsmanship that both bring to the court. It will be their legacy.

There is no rivalry that comes close. Those that think there is are perhaps just hoping to push their favorite player onto the big stage.

Nadal is the antithesis of beautiful tennis. His game is designed to stop opponents from being able to play, with all risk being cut out of his game. Its hugely effective and a triumph for Uncle Toni but beautiful it definitely is not.

There have been many occasions when your posts leave me struggling to accept that you are a genuine tennis aficionado fan HE (as opposed to a blindly biased fan, often with a big axe to grind) but I can find very little to quibble with re the picture you paint here.

In all honesty I could never describe Rafa's style as "beautiful" - and I seriously doubt that many others would be inclined to do so either (highly effective... yes, undoubtedly .... but "beautiful" ??..... ) However, putting aside that one point, I certainly do agree with the overall sentiment of your analysis, not least with regard to the enduring appeal of these two icons of the sport.

It is worth pointing out that Murray is not really a problem player for Nadal, the head to head is 13-5 in Nadal's favour !! I think in slams it is something like 8-2 to Nadal (one of those murray wins was also a withdrawal from nadal through injury).

As murray has a similar type of game to novak, would expect him to do better against Rafa. Even on grass, I think rafa has beaten murray all three times they played at wimbledon, only dropping one set !