Mercedes to be investigated

Yet another storm is set to rage after Red Bull and Ferrari are complaing that Mecedes did a test on 2014 tyres with a 2013 car, instead of a 2011 car as did Ferrari after the Bahrain race.

1000 miles tested to see if the new tyres are safe, but some are saying that they are the tyres to be used in Canada, not sure if this is true, but Mercedes could be in for a nasty penalty or fine or disqualification from future races.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22676348

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22672228

Interesting thread here, lots of different thoughts, but no facts have come from Pirelli yet. I'm hoping that they are the ones who didn't or had to inform the FIA about the testing and not Mercedes, or they could be in for a whole heap of trouble.

I hope they get a decent punishment. Cheats.

It does not matter if Mercedes new other teams where also doing it or not, they still used a 2013 car which is against the rules. They have not been competitive on a Sunday so clearly have just tried it on here. I think they should have the Monaco points wiped and also disqualify them from this years CCS. I'm fed up of teams trying to ignore the rules.

If they cheated then yes, a proper punishment should go down, if it was Mercedes that had to inform the other teams of their testing or that they got an unfair advantage from the data from the testing.

Certain facts have not come to light yet.

Did Pirelli approach other teams with views to test the same tyres, we dont know yet.

Did the FIA really give Mercedes permission to test the tyres with a 2013 car ?

Are the tyres relevant to this season or next, stories going round that they were 2014 tyres or that they were going to be used in Canada, so no real info as of yet.

Even if they were going to be used in Canada, did the team get any statistical info from the testing or not, when Ferrari did their testing, they supposedly didnt get any feedback from the results. This should be true for Mercedes, as the testing was there to see if the degradation was safe enough to use on a car that was the worst at looking after the tyres, which makes sense to me.

For Mercedes to be punished for cheating, it will have to be proved that they benefited from the testing in a positive way and broke the rules regarding the use of a current car.

It does not matter who was driving the cars, but for Pirelli to test the tyres for safety, again, the car's current drivers would produce the best results for safety reasons.

As I see it, they either get a hefty fine or disqualification, or nothing as they will be deemed to have done everything by the book if the FIA did give them permission. Its Pirelli who may need to be punished, but how do you do that when they look to be closing their contract at the end of the 2014 season.

This is my take on it:-

It can be presumed that no other teams were offered the chance to test (as per rules) but cannot see how Mercedes can be blamed for that. Surely, Pirelli and the FIA should be more culpable as it concerns them as they make the rules.

However, I can easily see the FIA trying to distance themselves from any blame and dishing out penalties such as disqualifying both Mercedes cars from the Monaco Grand Prix and offering the rest of the F1 teams a similar chance of 1000km of testing tyres with this year's car.

I answered this on the other thread CC, but I agree, RB and Ferrari are splitting hairs and seem to be foaming at the mouth for no reason.

Pirelli have said it used 30 different setups to test a range of tyres and as far as I can see, Mercedes din't get any stats from the testing. they also say that they approached all the teams last year to see who wanted to be part of this testing and only got a few replies, so really, teams like Red Bull have only got themselves to blame and not go running to the FIA to cry out about not being asked.

Saying it was all done in secret is also fantastical, just how do you have a "secret" test in Madrid, when teams are starting to pack up, F1 enthusiasts and technical staff all over the place and 2 F1 cars being put through their paces right under their noses ?

Looks like heads buried in sand to me.

JubbaIsle wrote:

For Mercedes to be punished for cheating, it will have to be proved that they benefited from the testing in a positive way and broke the rules regarding the use of a current car.

That's not how it works, that's like saying if they did not do a good job while testing then they will get let off.. 3 hours testing over other teams is a benefit regardless of if they made any ground or not.

They have had a 3 hour test with their current car, which is a blatant advantage over the other teams. that is putting aside the fact that even such permitted tests should be done with a 2 year old car, and other teams should also be given the chance, neither happened.

For me it sounds like they asked he FIA and then did not bother confirming so they could get an edge over other teams and then blame the FIA or Pirelli for not letting the other teams know they could do it. Judging by the FIAs reaction there was no confirmation and the other teams were thus not told.

JubbaIsle wrote: Mercedes din't get any stats from the testing.

So you don't think having your driver drive their car testing different tires for three hours leads to an advantage? Are you a Hamilton fan by any chance? lol

And its not just RB and Ferrari kicking up a stink it is the FIA who clearly feel that the tests were not given the OK by them, or why would they be putting forward an investigation?

The rules state that all teams get the same amount of testing time, and that any extra tests are done by all teams and using a 2 year old car. Pirelli are in fault for not making sure all teams had this chance, Mercedes broke the rules by using the same car... both broke the rules by not confirming with the FIA that the tests were being put into motion.

You've not got your facts right tunes, they were all asked last year according to Pirelli.

Mercedes asked the FIA for permission to do the testing. They granted it.

There were 30 different tests using different tyres with different setups only known to Pirelli.

The only caveat is that they used a current car, but we have to wait and see just how Pirelli organised the testing and to what extent the testing "may" have given Mercedes an advantage, but cheating is a strong word to use.

I can't see how Mercedes would have got any info from the tyres if they didnt know what was being used, the tyre pressures or the latent heat given off when driving them.

The whole point of the testing was to ensure the safety of the tyres for future use and if only a few teams came back with a request to join the testing then you can't blame Pirelli for using a car that degraded the tyres the most and had one of the worst de-laminations on any of the team cars this year.

I take it you're not a Hamilton or Mercedes fan LOL!

Well, Paul Hembery, when questioned about it, didn't believe Mercedes had done anything wrong.

Assuming Pirelli borrowed one of Mercedes' cars and used their own test driver, the team would not have gained any useful data that would give them an advantage.

Hamilton and Rosberg drove at the test apparently and Mercedes changed a lot of things over the week on their suspension according to people walking up and down the pitlane so would suggest they found something useful

Lets be fair here, teams do a great deal of tweaking to cars for each circuit they drive on, different setups and tyre pressures depending on road surface, heat etc, its something thats done between practice and qualifying.

Certain settings can be changed by the driver during the race.

With a car that is having the most trouble keeping tyres to last 70 laps would prob need the biggest margin of tweaks in comparison.

This is going to get very messy in my opinion. If they decide this needs to go futher then it will have to go to an International Tribune which can take a couple of months. That will produce a huge cloud of doubt and complete uncertainty within F1 and make the Championship just farsical, while pending the results.

Sorry but people should remember a few things here.

Did the FIA know of the tests and permit them?

Yes.

Is it Mercedes fault if Pirelli (conducting the tests) ask nobody else or no other team takes up the offer of tests?

No.

The real culprits of this mess are Pirelli and the FIA. After all it they are the rule-makers here and they are charged with policing the sport. It is them and them alone who really should be under the spotlight. I have said it once and I will say it again - Bernie Ecclestone is incompetent and not up to running the sport responsibly.

And Red Bull should stop trying to put Mercedes' reputation on the line by jumping the gun and spouting "cheating" in not so many words.

As for Bernie E, he's too rich and dislocated from the sport to understand how F1 works any more, he's good at making money, but to what ends will he go to pursue that ideal ?

He should retire to being just the sponsorship dealing promoter and leave the running of the sport to someone who understands F1 and appreciates the dangers and pitfalls too.

JubbaIsle wrote:You've not got your facts right tunes, they were all asked last year according to Pirelli.

Mercedes asked the FIA for permission to do the testing. They granted it.

False, Many teams have claimed they were not asked. Why would they not do a 3 day in season test if they were offered? does not really make sense.

And the FIA did not give them permission which is why they have started an investigation.

There were 30 different tests using different tyres with different setups only known to Pirelli.

Yet both Hamilton and Rosberg were driving this years car for those tests.

I can't see how Mercedes would have got any info from the tyres if they didn't know what was being used, the tyre pressures or the latent heat given off when driving them.

You think Mercedes would have provided this years car and both there drivers for three days if they were not getting anything out of it?... that's a pretty naïve take on it IMO.

The whole point of the testing was to ensure the safety of the tyres for future use and if only a few teams came back with a request to join the testing then you can't blame Pirelli for using a car that degraded the tyres the most and had one of the worst de-laminations on any of the team cars this year.

I take it you're not a Hamilton or Mercedes fan LOL!

I take it you are! lol ... if it was so innocent then other teams and the FIA would not be so annoyed.

1/ Pirelli have stated they asked all teams in 2012, I can only take their word for it.

2/ If Pirelli were going to test the safety and delamination effects on current cars, using current drivers in those cars has to be the only way to test them properly.

3/ I haven't said they got nothing out of it, I'm sure Ferarri got something out of their tests after Bahrain, but data wise, nothing useful without carnal knowledge of what tests or tyres were involved.

4/ Tunes....please tell me what point there would have been using a 2011 car with 2011 test drivers if they had to try and find a way to limit the delamination effects of their current tyres, in readiness for next year or later in the season?
Mercedes had the worst usage percentage of all teams, Hamilton prob the worst, are you telling me that they went to the FIA to have a coffee morning and slyly try to shoe horn in a request to drive a current car with current drivers, change the subject and disappear off into the sunset hoping the FIA would forget about the whole thing ?

Surely not....that would be naive, Mercedes sought permission after a request from Pirelli to use a 2013 setup, knowing it was in breach of certain rules, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered. The FIA said yes you can, had already told Pirreli it was OK, but under certain caveats....all teams had to be asked and informed. They were waiting for Pirelli to come back with any news on the subject. That is nothing to do with Mercedes, absolutely no responsibility to go around telling everyone what has happened, or find who had been asked, Pirelli and the FIA have that job, quite simple really.

Too many peeps on the BBC website forming accusations based on opinions, Mercedes were approached, they accepted, asked the Authorities, they said yes, all legal, did test, went home. Ferrari did the same, didnt ask FIA, legal anyway, did test, went home. In both cases testing teams didnt have to tell other teams that they were testing, spot the difference ? Mercedes needed permission because the test was outside the rules, but inside Pirelli's contract to test in season, inside Pirelli's contract to use different setups as they see fit for use in season, inside Pirelli's contract to contact all teams in a request for testing...its Pirelli all they way through this debacle. The FIA gave permission knowing it was in breach of their own rules, so to be fair, told Pirelli that all teams had to be asked. Again Pirelli.

Mercedes were just tools in this whole process, no pun intended.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sorry but people should remember a few things here.

Did the FIA know of the tests and permit them?

Yes.

Is it Mercedes fault if Pirelli (conducting the tests) ask nobody else or no other team takes up the offer of tests?

No.

The real culprits of this mess are Pirelli and the FIA. After all it they are the rule-makers here and they are charged with policing the sport. It is them and them alone who really should be under the spotlight. I have said it once and I will say it again - Bernie Ecclestone is incompetent and not up to running the sport responsibly.

In fairness, Bernie Ecclestone is extremely competent at what he's paid to do...make F1 the global sport it is, schmoozing with investors, sports ministers and the like to keep the money rolling in (though I don't like the way he holds circuits to ransom, threatening to drop them for whatever reason).

The problems start when he gets delusions of grandeur and starts trying to interfere with the technical and rule-making side of things.


@JubbaIsle: sounds like a pretty fair and open policy was followed for the tyre testing. Hope your interpretation is correct and that this just turns out to be a storm in a teacup.

Just read the following article on the BBC:

"Mercedes tyre test not a secret", say Pirelli

Pirelli insist the test, after the Spanish Grand Prix on 12 May, was "blind" to Mercedes, in that the team were not informed any of the tyre specifications Pirelli wanted to run. While some of the testing was on an issue with the 2013 tyres, Pirelli say the majority of time was spent on developing specifications for 2014.

Red Bull and Ferrari accused Mercedes of breaking article 22.4 of the sporting regulations, which forbids in-season testing other than for a single three-day young driver test or for very limited straight-line aerodynamic tests.

Pirelli say they are allowed to ask teams to do up to 1,000km of testing, which was as much as Mercedes did over three days at the Circuit de Catalunya.

"We are developing a tyre in the 2014 F1 championship," added Hembrey of the test.

"We used tyres [during the test] that were not being used in the 2013 championship - our focus was for 2014.

"We had contacted a number of teams and Mercedes offered their availability. We determined the test. This was a blind test for Mercedes - they had no idea what was being tested."

He added that Pirelli had been working on a way to prevent this year's tyres from delaminating - when a tyre fails as a result of a puncture - so spectacularly, as some have done this year.

"We have been working on a delamination issue for the 2013 tyres - which has seen a small number of incidents," he said.

A new specification of this year's tyres will be given to every team for the next F1 race in Canada, to be run during the first two practice sessions, to ensure every team is happy that the nature of the revised tyre is consistent with what they have used so far during 2013.

Should all teams agree to use the new specification, it would be introduced for the British Grand Prix.

Which sounds fine and above board...until you read this:

A statement released by the FIA at Monaco said the governing body "may bring the matter before the International Tribunal".


It added that under the terms of its contract with the tyre manufacturer it had allowed Pirelli to carry out some tyre development testing with a team, using a current car, "provided every team is offered the opportunity to do so".

It adds: "Following this communication, the FIA received no further information about a possible test from Pirelli or from Mercedes-AMG. Furthermore, the FIA received no confirmation that all teams had been given an opportunity to take part in this test."

The International Tribunal, effectively for these purposes the FIA's court, can impose any number of penalties, ranging from exclusion from the world championship to a fine.

If the agreement on testing is written into the contract, I'm not sure why Pirelli also need to notify the FIA.

If all they've done is fail to formally notify the FIA of something they were legally allowed to do, I don't see there being any major penalities imposed on anyone...a few token wrist slaps at most.

Seems to me that Merc tested at Pirellis request - a legal request for tyre development - and that was it. Pirelli were the intended beneficiaries and so anything an assisting team gets out of it is a bonus (which is probably nothing much but in the spirit of fairness the reason why all teams needed to be offered the same request). So unless something else comes out of the woodwork Merc have got nothing to worry about IMO. If anyone is in the dock it's Pirelli because they simply haven't co-ordinated the whole thing properly with the other teams - as per their contract.

Its that 3rd paragraph which could potentially put Mercedes in the dock, but its nip and tuck whether they infringed any procedures and as for a penalty, what can the FIA do apart form change the parameters.

"It adds: "Following this communication, the FIA received no further information about a possible test from Pirelli or from Mercedes-AMG."

It's interesting that the 'media day' testers Ferrari and the illegal parts and over budget cheats fizzy drinks company are moaning here.

Comical actually

I really do not see how Mercedes can be punished here. They were invited to test by Pirelli who assured them it had been ratified with the FIA (which it had as 'that letter' proves). The question marks have to be over Pirelli for not offering ALL teams the chance to test AND the FIA for not being involved in this completely and sending out a Memo to all teams about the opportunity to test. Heck it is solely up to them to properly govern the sport.

Yep, a simple email, teams would have responded, everyone would have known, multiple tests, even happier Pirelli, better tyres for next year or later in season, safer driving, better competition.

Just where Mercedes figure in all this, is, as you say CC, not in their yard but firmly in the hands of the FIA. Pirelli are culpable to a degree, but why the FIA stood back and waited for events to unfold is beyond me when they were in possession of pertinent information in regard to an agreed test beyond their own rules, that would effect all teams in competition, for good or bad.

Ferrari seem to have put their hand in the dog's mouth they fed and assumed it wouldn't to bite.....ouch!

JubbaIsle wrote:Its that 3rd paragraph which could potentially put Mercedes in the dock, but its nip and tuck whether they infringed any procedures and as for a penalty, what can the FIA do apart form change the parameters.

"It adds: "Following this communication, the FIA received no further information about a possible test from Pirelli or from Mercedes-AMG."

This is where the problem lies for the pair of them, If they only approached the FIA about it but never said they were going to do it their both in trouble.

The 2nd paragraph is also a problem, Saying that a test was possible if carried out by Pirelli as opposed to Mercedes yet apparently Hamilton/Rosberg drove the car instead of Pirelli's Alguersuari ( I miss that guy he was harshly treated) Being a 2013 car just makes it look worse then it is.

I would usually blame the FIA but it's really not their fault this time if they only got approached about it and nothing more.

Fernando the FIA stated this:- that under the terms of its contract with the tyre manufacturer it had allowed Pirelli to carry out some tyre development testing with a team, using a current car, "provided every team is offered the opportunity to do so".

It adds: "Following this communication, the FIA received no further information about a possible test from Pirelli or from Mercedes-AMG. Furthermore, the FIA received no confirmation that all teams had been given an opportunity to take part in this test."

Now if you are saying it is Mercedes job to run around offering all other teams the chance to test then that is daft. Pirelli AND the FIA are the culprits here. Pirelli as it was their wish for such tests so their duty to uphold all the rules not Mercedes who merely accepted the invitation. The FIA knew (before the test) of plans to test so common sense and proper governing of the sport should have seen them sending out a memo to ALL teams about the chance to test. Again that is not Mercedes job.

The only blame that could possibly be laid at Mercedes door is that they took Pirelli at their word that it was all above board. They should have double-checked with the incompetents at the FIA.

In short it just comes across as woeful miscommunication between Pirelli, the FIA and the competing teams.

It says they were approached by Pirelli about testing with an 2013 car on the condition that everyone has fair opportunity to do so.
They advised Mercedes/Pirelli that it would only be allowed if Pirelli ran the car as well

After this they never heard anything back about the test or that others had been approached about a test.


So if they give Pirelli/Mercedes their advice and then hear nothing back how is it their fault that?



"The FIA knew (before the test) of plans to test so common sense and proper governing of the sport should have seen them sending out a memo to ALL teams about the chance to test."

That's the issue though Craig they were approached about a test neither Pirelli or Mercedes said they were going forward with it. They would only send a memo out if they said they were 100% going to do it.


"Now if you are saying it is Mercedes job to run around offering all other teams the chance to test then that is daft. Pirelli AND the FIA are the culprits here. Pirelli as it was their wish for such tests so their duty to uphold all the rules not Mercedes"

This bit isn't Mercedes fault it's Pirelli's fault although Mercedes were pre warned about in season testing before the season began and you'd have thought they would of been sensible enough to check the FIA testing rules before they started the testing.

Yes and so is that not just woeful miscommunication? Firstly, because Pirelli (the whole driving force behind the tests) never bothered to contact the FIA and say the test was on. I would presume (going by what Mercedes officials were saying in Monaco) that Mercedes fully believed Pirelli who told them it was all above board - and why wouldn't they?

This will lead nowhere in terms of punishments, just warnings. Time to move on.

LOL, Pirelli still won't come out and say they asked all the teams about the new testing they had arranged. The FIA website gives a short statement, empty really, so we won't know anything until the hearing.

All I can see is flak and decoys, tracers and propaganda being chucked about like confetti. Its quite funny that a professional unit like the FIA can allow this rural panto to expand and inflate into a West End farce.

Breaking news......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22792536

I sense a heavy fine coming for Mercedes (but nothing else). Bernie needs his pocket money me thinks. I did say the FIA would find a scapegoat for their ineptitude.

The media will over hype the tribunal story but in reality a fine is all Mercedes are going to get.

Red bull and Vettel would love a penalty, esp at Monaco against Mercs. That would give Seb a wonderous lift in the points, yuk, he really is pathetic sometimes.

If Mercedes get a penalty, then Pirelli are gonna get lynched. And the FIA will have to smack their hands too.

If the tribunal should find against Mercedes then its been rigged. The whole case relies on the fact that Pirelli were supposed to ask all the teams if they would want to take part. Some have said they weren't.

Pirelli said they did last year, but thats a non-entry, they needed to do it again this year in regard to testing outside the rules.

The FIA, knowing that they had to break their own rules to allow current car testing, had more responsibility than to just sit back and wait for events to unfold. They should have told all teams they had been approached with a request to test in conflict with article 22.4 of the sporting regulations and had instructed Pirelli that to continue would have to ask all teams to take part.

It seems pretty clear that the FIA are trying to admit ignorance and Pirelli are saying that everything was done above board. Mercedes have been dragged into it for no other reason than not informing the FIA that they had accepted Pirelli's request to do the testing on the assumption that Pirelli had completed the FIA's conditional caveats.

The smell of a rat is starting to assault my nostrils, it ain't going to go away is it ?

Too right Jubba.

The FIA are acting all innocent here and yet they are the governing body charged with policing the sport. They evidently knew of the plans to tyre test and at that point they should have been letting every team know of the test and inviting them to take part.

Curiously, I am wondering what would have happened if Red Bull and Ferrari had not lodged a protest? Would the FIA have hushed it up and swept it under the carpet? Remember the only reason this has become a story is not because the FIA pounced on rule infringements but because two rival teams protested.

Belgarion of Riva wrote:It's interesting that the 'media day' testers Ferrari and the illegal parts and over budget cheats fizzy drinks company are moaning here.

Comical actually

I think you will find all the teams are against it, as they should be, I don't buy Mercedes PR machine for a minute. They used this years car knowing full well that's against regulations.

I'm surprised at the blinkered views on here, When its quite clear they have done something they should not have. The bottom line is both drivers spent 3 days driving this seasons car using this seasons tires. All the fan boys can dress it up how ever they like but it wont change the fact they are in the wrong.

tunes666 - first up I am by no means a Mercedes fan just a poster highlighting the incompetence of the governing body of F1.

If you think it is Mercedes job to scurry around inviting all of the teams to tyre test then perhaps you think Mercedes should be governing the sport? Mercedes tested on the invitation by Pirelli who insisted it was all above board and with clearance of the FIA so why shouldn't Mercedes have taken them at their word? The FIA knew of the planned test and if they were so concerned they should have moved to both ask Pirelli if they have contacted all teams and as back up should have contacted the rest of the teams as well as I would expect of any governing body.

Tunes, you accuse people of being blinkered when you are the one with the largest blinkers on.

Without knowing the facts, you were already calling them cheats. If anyone is culpable here, it is Pirelli and the FIA and if any fines are handed out, I can see more lawsuits

The FIA were only approached about a test not told that it would happen and heard no more so if it happens behind their backs what are they suppose to do about it

They would only send it to other teams if Pirelli said they were going ahead with it.

It's Pirelli's fault for the communication issues and Mercedes for using their 2013 car.

They will get a fine and that's all

JubbaIsle wrote:Red bull and Vettel would love a penalty, esp at Monaco against Mercs. That would give Seb a wonderous lift in the points, yuk, he really is pathetic sometimes.

Reign your hate in boy, it would be exactly the same had it been Alonso etc finishing second, if they have gained an advantage from the test which i'm pretty sure they would have then there's every reason to believe it cost Vettel a fair chance at victory. I hope they don't change the result but no point having a pop at Vettel when it's nothing to do with him at all.

They can't change the Monaco result anyway lads so not sure why that's even being discussed

I thought they could still exclude cars from the finishing result..

no it's been officially upheld so there is nothing can be done to that although Mercedes can lose their points but no one else would get any extra

Fernando wrote:no it's been officially upheld so there is nothing can be done to that although Mercedes can lose their points but no one else would get any extra

Which would still smack hugely of scapegoat-ing...just because they need to be seen to be doing something (without investigating themselves, or upsetting their tyre supplier any further).

I would agree with Jubba, that the onus should be on Pirelli and the FIA to get their lines of communication sorted out, as well as ensuring their understanding/interpretations of the tyre testing agreement are the same (i.e. singing from the same hymn sheet).

Okay, you could be picky and say Mercedes should have checked with the FIA...but who's to say they wouldn't have got a vague, inconclusive asnwer and still ended up under investigation? The FIA haven't come out and stated exactly what the procedure should have been, so it seems to me like neither party was entirely clear about how this should have played out.

Belgarion of Riva wrote:Tunes, you accuse people of being blinkered when you are the one with the largest blinkers on.

Without knowing the facts, you were already calling them cheats. If anyone is culpable here, it is Pirelli and the FIA and if any fines are handed out, I can see more lawsuits

It is an attempt to twist rules... You are not permitted to test during the season with the current car. This is in the rules, why did Mercedes assume this no longer applied when Pirelli asked them to test? Why did Ferrari use their 2011 car and not this years car?

And why were both Hamilton and Rosberg used for three days to test tires for Pirelli during mid season?

no blinkers here.

tunes666 wrote:

Belgarion of Riva wrote:Tunes, you accuse people of being blinkered when you are the one with the largest blinkers on.

Without knowing the facts, you were already calling them cheats. If anyone is culpable here, it is Pirelli and the FIA and if any fines are handed out, I can see more lawsuits

It is an attempt to twist rules... You are not permitted to test during the season with the current car. This is in the rules, why did Mercedes assume this no longer applied when Pirelli asked them to test? Why did Ferrari use their 2011 car and not this years car?

And why were both Hamilton and Rosberg used for three days to test tires for Pirelli during mid season?

no blinkers here.

Ill do this one

why did Mercedes assume this no longer applied when Pirelli asked them to test? Because they believed they had permission to do so from the FIA which has turned over they didn't they only approached FIA it.

Why did Ferrari use their 2011 car and not this years car? It's because Ferrari went by the rules that you can only use a 2011 at the moment.

why were both Hamilton and Rosberg used for three days to test tires for Pirelli during mid season? They shouldn't have been driving the Pirelli test driver should of been unless every team was there which they weren't as Lotus/Force India never got an invite and RB rejected it due to them knowing it's illegal.

Exactly, And if the FIA say they did not give them permission then Mercedes just assumed they were able to do it, and thought they would also go the whole hog and use this years car and and both their current drivers.

Ignorance is no defence.

I'm fed up of teams trying it on... and ignoring the rules to gain an advantage. It always leaves a sour taste on the season.

I really hope they get a punishment which damages their season... not that they had a great start anyway..

notice how Rosberg had to looked away when he answered the question "do you think you gained an advantage" .. all in the body lingo... they know they have done wrong.

I think they knew they had a bad start and was worth trying it on. If they got away with it they would have the advantage if they got caught well they were struggling still this year anyway and will still work towards next year..

One fact found out today is that there are no provisions under the rules to only allocate test drivers in any of the tests. Its only the car that comes under the jurisdiction of the rules. A team can use whatever driver they want for the tests.

Also, lets not forget, Pirelli have it in their contract to pursue tests to unsure the safety of those tyres. The ruling governing the use of a two year old car is that the car specs are so different than this years car, the teams that do do the testing would get no significant advantage over those not testing. The significance of having virtually no reply in last years communication from Pirelli to all teams to test this year, highlights just how much priority all teams put in getting anything out of testing.

The fact that Pirelli asked the FIA to bend the rules to afford a safety check on those tyres that were dangerous led to the FIA asking for parity in those tests by asking all teams to take part in a new kind of test.

Mercedes approached the FIA asking if such a test would be legal, they said yes if the caveats to Pirelli they asked for were put in place.

The FIA and Pirelli are the Contractors and Contracted, Mercedes are merely the tool to provide results for the test.
They were blind tests, no significant advantage would have been gained.

Quotes from Pirelli "It says that the Mercedes test was "90%" to do with 2014, with only the remainder devoted to running a development 2013 rear tyre" - "Pirelli says the test was "blind", that Mercedes did not know which tyres were being used at any time and that the team were not allowed to change the set-up of the car"

So we have to ask ourselves these questions......

Where are Mercedes guilty of any infringement ?
What are Pirelli guilty of ?
Where does the FIA become culpable of involvement ?

I presume that is why we are having this tribunal, to find out who, what, when and why.

monty junior wrote:

JubbaIsle wrote:Red bull and Vettel would love a penalty, esp at Monaco against Mercs. That would give Seb a wonderous lift in the points, yuk, he really is pathetic sometimes.

Reign your hate in boy, it would be exactly the same had it been Alonso etc finishing second, if they have gained an advantage from the test which i'm pretty sure they would have then there's every reason to believe it cost Vettel a fair chance at victory. I hope they don't change the result but no point having a pop at Vettel when it's nothing to do with him at all.

Only had a pop because he's waded in after Redbulls complaint asking for a penalty when he doesn't even know the full facts. Typical whinge as far as Im concerned, but hate ?....nah.....Im not that passionate.