Should team coaches be kept away from match officials? Do they influence opinion during the game?

Richard Cockerill has been accused of “intimidating” match officials by Saints assistant coach Dorian West. Leicester lost Toby Flood, concussed following a late Courtney Lawes tackle.

Cockerill countered Northampton’s accusations following his reaction to the Flood incident.

“They were calling for a spinal board because our player has been hit late. I was saying to the fourth official ’surely we need to go to the TMO (television match official)’. I said the same to (referees’ chief) Ed Morrison,” Cockerill claimed.

“We used the TMO the whole season. It has been called foul play, we get a penalty so it is clearly foul play, it is late and you have broken an international fly-half who is very important to our game.

“For me, that is the sanction of a yellow card and potentially more. A guy has had to leave the field because of that incident.

“So it is okay to hit players late and it is okay to leave the field concussed is it? I am protecting my players.

“I am allowed to talk to the officials. When a player of ours is potentially seriously injured I will talk to whoever I want.

“How Northampton decide to behave is up to them. I didn’t ask anybody to hit anybody late. I didn’t ask anybody to swear at anybody, did I?

“Before they make any comments about me, maybe they want to look at themselves because my players weren’t accusing the referee of anything or hitting people late.”

He spoke to the 4th official I don't see how that intimidated an official, especially since the 4th official is clearly shouting at him to sod off back to the stands. Wayne Barnes was probably unaware of Cockers protestations being on the other side of the pitch.

But he wasn't just speaking to him was he. Cockerill ran down from his seat and was shouting and swearing at the 4th official. The 4th official asks him to go and sit back down, which he does...for all of less than 30 seconds when he's back shouting at the 4th official. At this point Ed Morrison has to escort him back to his seat.

No one has a problem with Cockerill being concerned for his players but it was the way he went about it that is unacceptable. Lawes' his was not late, he had already committed to the tackle before Flood had released the ball. Are players not allowed to tackle the opposition just incase they may pass the ball before contact is made?

Cockerill will get hauled before the beak, and as he is on a suspended sentence will be banned.

Saints coaches could also be seen talking to the 4th official.

Personally I have no problem with coaches bein g granted that latitude, especially as someone has to inform him of replacements. Should a coach overstep the line, then that shoudl be addressed as it will with Cockers.

That's an unfounded assumption, unless you've managed to lip read there is no proof Cockers has used offensive language to a match official. He may have shouted as he protested his point which I wish he wouldn't do but I figure Cockers will stop being passionate about the game only when he dies.

I'd say given by the reaction of the 4th official he wasn't in the least bit intimidated and I doubt that was Cockers intention. Cockers and guile never went hand in hand when he was a player and don't now he's a head coach. Just look back at his previous interviews, they are all frank, honest and passionate. He tells it how he sees it.

I don't think he intimidated the 4th official, so no harm done, but he is turning into the Harry Redknapp of rugby - he's a whinger, and an expert at diverting attention away from himself and onto other factors, normally injuries and ref decisions. He also talks negatively about other players and coaches far too much.

I really can't stand him, I think he lacks class. But I can't see he's done anything wrong particularly.

Hood83 wrote:I really can't stand him, I think he lacks class.

He was a Hooker, no?

Hood,

he also talks positively a hell of alot about other players and coaches which people seem to either forget or ignore.

He also talks negatively about other players and coaches far too much.

Hood. Find a criticism in the last 12 months he's levelled at another coach or player that wasn't linked to a comment made about him or an act of foul play.

After the Saints game he said " The scored a good try, even with a winger down, so credit to Saints - they played really well, they took us to the line".

He was actually very complimentary right up to the point the ESPN presenter told him what West had said at half time. Being called a bully and an embarrassment by the opposing coach will upset most DORs wouldn't it.

Plus...the opposing coach might then rightly be accused of the same shortcomings Cockerill is being accused of.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

He also talks negatively about other players and coaches far too much.

Hood. Find a criticism in the last 12 months he's levelled at another coach or player that wasn't linked to a comment made about him or an act of foul play.

After the Saints game he said " The scored a good try, even with a winger down, so credit to Saints - they played really well, they took us to the line".

He was actually very complimentary right up to the point the ESPN presenter told him what West had said at half time. Being called a bully and an embarrassment by the opposing coach will upset most DORs wouldn't it.

So is the problem that they media try to sensationalise the game...?

I have never seen coache run down to the touch line from the stands in any other leagues in the world. Is it the media that push for them to do so in England?

Shaun Edwards has done. Not to shout at the officials. To shout at his players

HammerofThunor wrote:Shaun Edwards has done. Not to shout at the officials. To shout at his players

That's rather different isn't it. Has nothing to Di with this thread and also interesting that you choose to use a welsh coach as an example.


This thread is regarding coaches interfering with officials.

Connor O'Shea was been known to run down and berate officials. His demeanor is more reserved than Cockers who is an all or nothing sort of chap though when Connor lets loose he really doesn't hold back. You see French officials jump off the beach appealing for decisions as well.

There seems to be a culture of very 'visible' coaches/Directors of rugby in AP?

Am I right or wrong there? I know Pro12 coaches are well known too but the tendancy for them is to keep up in their stands with their computer print outs, little emotion shown during games and mostly leaving it to the players to remonstrate with officials if anything is seen to go wrong.

Directors of Rugby in England seem to be personalities as much as coaches. They're a big part of the flavour of the whole show it seems.

Or maybe I'm just seeing that from the outside looking in and reading it all wrong.

I think it is fine when a coach talks to a match official, however I believe the only access should be as a group session, Coach plus captain of both teams in the same meeting.

I don't like the idea that a coach can walk into a change room of one team whilst the other is not present.

I think you can most likely get more influence when a coach walks into a change room where he is meeting one team only.

Fly, Gareth Jenkins and Nigel Davies used to prowl the touchline and be somewhat animated towards players and officials (our players for messing up or refs for bad calls), so not sure it is a Jeff only issue.

Yeah, Scarlet...I was just thinking in general terms. I know Davis was always visible up and down the greyhound track

I think talking to the oficials should be allowed. The Leinster coaches raised the alarm re bloodgate as it was unfolding insisting on a doctor evaluation on Tom Williams or something like that but they were ignored at the time by the officials. What if Leinster had lost?

Talking to the officials is fine in my books, but shouting and gesturing is again getting into the realms of respect=lack of. Cockerill is steadily making a reputation for himself as a bit of a media buffoon as he keeps coming up with excuses and whinging on top of other things.

I don't think coaches should be banned from talking to the officials, but there is a line between asking for clarification and trying to change the calls made.

For me Cockers has crossed the line here and as its not his first time, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little ban for him.

yappysnap wrote:Talking to the officials is fine in my books, but shouting and gesturing is again getting into the realms of respect=lack of. Cockerill is steadily making a reputation for himself as a bit of a media buffoon as he keeps coming up with excuses and whinging on top of other things.

I do think some people only like to listen to his moaning, they don't seem to comment when he's praising other teams/coaches which he does a lot.

Maes, glad to see your keeping up your anti-english posts still, you get a A+ for being consistent.

From this mornings Telegraph.

On Saturday, the first, portentous, incident was the haranguing of assistant referee Greg Garner by a Leicester water carrier.

The club should be held to account for his behaviour. There followed a sustained berating of the fourth official by coach Richard Cockerill over a late hit by Courtney Lawes. This occurred before the whole West Stand and incited crowd comment and provoked a response from Saints’ assistant coach, Dorian West.

Since he received a four-week ban in 2009, there have been regular incidents and while Tigers fans defend Cockerill, the rest of the game is angry that it appears he is allowed to do this, and that it works.

If coaches were confined as they are in internationals this would not happen. Indeed, had the Rugby Football Union done something more than send Cockerill and Conor O’Shea of Harlequins a letter for ill-judged comments at the beginning of the season, this might not have happened. If Cockerill escapes without a ban, there will be justifiable uproar.

maestegmafia wrote:From this mornings Telegraph.

On Saturday, the first, portentous, incident was the haranguing of assistant referee Greg Garner by a Leicester water carrier.

The club should be held to account for his behaviour. There followed a sustained berating of the fourth official by coach Richard Cockerill over a late hit by Courtney Lawes. This occurred before the whole West Stand and incited crowd comment and provoked a response from Saints’ assistant coach, Dorian West.

Since he received a four-week ban in 2009, there have been regular incidents and while Tigers fans defend Cockerill, the rest of the game is angry that it appears he is allowed to do this, and that it works.

If coaches were confined as they are in internationals this would not happen. Indeed, had the Rugby Football Union done something more than send Cockerill and Conor O’Shea of Harlequins a letter for ill-judged comments at the beginning of the season, this might not have happened. If Cockerill escapes without a ban, there will be justifiable uproar.

Maes do you actually spend your days hunting around for articles to paint anyone english in a bad light? Looking at your posting history would lead anyone to think this.....

Regarding the article, the following quote is cowpat. I've watched the game and i also know exactly what went on. "sustained berating" is not something Cockerill was doing, trust me, that was borderline calm for cockerill.

The only bits of that article I would dispute are; the berating part, Cockers was incensed but in no means was the debate one sided and Cockers kept a distance and clearly didn't use foul or abusive language (otherwise we'd have heard about it via a ban by now). The other aspect I'd question is the repeated incidence bit. Since the unsavoury Dragons incident for which Cockers was censured and issued a public apology there has only been one claim of direct abuse aimed at a member of the refs association which turned out to be an unfounded allegation by the Telegraph following an RFU investigation.

He was given a warning following his complaints over the lack of consistentcy in referees but seeing as most fans say the same thing I don't really see the problem there.

nathan wrote:Maes, glad to see your keeping up your anti-english posts still, you get a A+ for being consistent.

nathan wrote:Maes do you actually spend your days hunting around for articles to paint anyone english in a bad light? Looking at your posting history would lead anyone to think this.....

Can you quit your vile insinuations and just discuss rugby....?

My posting history shows i discuss all matters in rugby. This is a topic that i think should be of massive interest to any fan no matter what the Nationality.

I can't see any reason why I should be subjected to your pathetic and moronic abuse.

Move on, I don't want to see you post anything of the sort again.

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:Maes, glad to see your keeping up your anti-english posts still, you get a A+ for being consistent.

nathan wrote:Maes do you actually spend your days hunting around for articles to paint anyone english in a bad light? Looking at your posting history would lead anyone to think this.....

Can you quit your vile insinuations and just discuss rugby....?

My posting history shows i discuss all matters in rugby. This is a topic that i think should be of massive interest to any fan no matter what the Nationality.

I can't see any reason why I should be subjected to your pathetic and moronic abuse.

Move on, I don't want to see you post anything of the sort again.

then it's time to open both eyes...

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:Maes, glad to see your keeping up your anti-english posts still, you get a A+ for being consistent.

nathan wrote:Maes do you actually spend your days hunting around for articles to paint anyone english in a bad light? Looking at your posting history would lead anyone to think this.....

Can you quit your vile insinuations and just discuss rugby....?

My posting history shows i discuss all matters in rugby. This is a topic that i think should be of massive interest to any fan no matter what the Nationality.

I can't see any reason why I should be subjected to your pathetic and moronic abuse.

Move on, I don't want to see you post anything of the sort again.

then it's time to open both eyes...

Look Nathan, it's not his fault that the only articles that paint English rugby in a positive light are ridiculously biased and not worth posting (or reading). In the same way all articles that show a negative side to Welsh rugby are ridiculously baised, and again, not worth posting.

Wow...!

You guys are absolutely pathetic.

Yes we probably are.

There is now a stereotype of you and your posts that pertain to english rugby. You may deem it to be unfair, but time and again when talking purely about english rugby and players you only write negative stuff. I have yet to see any article by you showing English rugby in a positive light. Sure there must be one, but not seen it.


This then means that people will assume the worst if you write a "neutral" piece. Unfair, but that is how life works.

Now the prime example of how you tend to post came after Leicester lost to Toulon. Every other neutral spoke about how close Leicester had pusghed them, how well Tait had played, how dominant the Tigers scrum was and how well Croft had done until he left injured.

Your only comment was stating that Croft, Tuilagi and Ben youngs had just played their way off the Lions tour. You could have been positive - instead you chose to be extremely negative and antagonistic.

Yes we are pathetic at times. We are not the only ones though.

What I think is pathetic is that you can't discuss a rugby matter and you see it as an affront to Wnglish rugby when it's not.

This thread is about what coaches may or may not be doing to influence games and it is an important part of the professional club game.

Because the incident happens in a tigers match in the English premiership you guys use the fact I have posted it to derail a debate about something very relevant, to a personal opinion about me which is irrelevant to the debate.

Why don't you lay off your pathetic accusations and look at the subject matter.

Richard Cockerill faces starting the season with a touchline ban after the Rugby Football Union charged him with using bad language towards the fourth official during Leicester's Premiership final victory over Northampton at Twickenham last month.