Scottish Pro team thread

[123456789]

First topic message reminder :

There doesn't seem to be much going on but I thought it might be an idea to set up a thread devoted to transfers, coaching news and general new information to do with the Scottish pro clubs over the summer

[EST]

Finn Russell's kiwi team, Lincoln University, recently won whatever division they were playing in over there. In the write up Russell gets rave reviews and was MOM, and has been supposedly great form for the past few weeks.  His team included Robbie Fruean and Jordan Taufua - so some promising signs.  Infact, the league give out MVP ratings for each game, Russell is second over all. 

I'm not sure of what standard of league this is, i'm supposing its the level below the ITM?  Either way, i'm looking forward to him getting some more game time for Glasgow next season.

[RDW]

You got a link to the write up?

[funnyExiledScot]

Lucky Russell is being stationed at the Scottish club with two international fly halves (Weir and Jackson) and pretty decent cover in Peter Horne (and Stuart Hogg).

If they are fit he'll get very little exposure at Glasgow. Edinburgh of course don't have a single decent fly half, with Piers Francis and Harry Leonard the two best options at the club.

Again, we're sending players in completely the wrong direction. If Russell is vaguely useful he'd have the starting slot at Edinburgh nailed down before Christmas, rather than hoping for a bench slot at Glasgow!

[EST]

Here it is RDW:  http://www.crfu.co.nz/main/index.cfm/1,649,4653,0,html/Game-Day-Week-11

I agree fEs, although I would imagine he might see some game time depending on how Horne and Weir's injury develop.  Personally I think Jackson should make his way east along the M8.

[funnyExiledScot]

I suppose the flip side to my argument is that at Glasgow he'll get quick ball and have an attacking platform to work off, rather than the ponderous guff served up by the Edinburgh forwards last season.

For what it's worth I agree that shifting Jackson sideways makes good sense. With Laidlaw kicking from 9 and Edinburgh needing an attacking 10 to make best use of Scott, Visser and Tonks (don't mention Jack Cuthbert), Jackson would fit the bill nicely, allowing Weir to become established at Glasgow, with Horne, Russell and potentially Stuart Hogg backing him up.

But common sense doesn't come into this these days. We used to show good sense. When Edinburgh had Murray and Hines at lock, it was agreed to move Kellock to Glasgow. I really don't see why we can't use the same good sense these days.

[EST]

I think it would be the best option for all parties, with only two pro teams we have to make best use of the resources available - and with Jackson at Edinburgh we could put out purely Scottish, competitive midfields at both clubs.  Sadly, as you say, I can't see it happening.  Que an over the hill English 10 being brought in at Edinburgh and Russell getting no meaningful game time.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

If Pete Horne has done his anterior cruciate ligament and Dunky Weir is recovering from a serious leg break AND Jacko has a bad arm injury there is no way on earth he- Jacko - or Finn Russell are going to the MFLs !

[EST]

Is Weir back in time for the start of the season? Jackson is staying with the squad in SA, so that indicates that his injury isn't as bad as either Horne or Wilson's.  We have Scott Wight as well so if Jackson did go, that would leave: Wight, Russell and Hogg able to play 10 with Weir an unknown in terms of his return date - I would be happy to go with that into the new season.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Pretty sure that Weir isn't going to be available for the start of the season. The injury list mounts (Gillies, the Coo, DTHvdM, Meatball, Wilson, MacArthur, Hornee furraaa lineeee) but it looks like Cus is back in training

[Majestic83]

Finlay Gillies is back in training and should be fit for possibly the pre season games. Wasn't supposed to start get back on his feet and run until 6 weeks after his op but was running after 2.
He has been dominating a few of us with hill sprints work the past couple weeks and looks in pretty good condition for having had a major op on his neck.

[JayMaster3000]

With Hearts going into administration what impact will/could this have for Edinburgh? 

My understanding is that Murryfield and Hearts home ground is incredibly close, could this be a option for Edinburgh's new ground?

Just curious.

[CraigS1874]

Tynecastles pitch is far to small for rugby and football! Fantastic stadium but hearts will continue to play there fir the next few seasons. The SRU are also not in the position to pay unnecessary rent.


And at edinburgh I would take anyone of your top 4 10s that is how bad Francis is

[RDW]

The whole swapping players between Edinburgh and Glasgow question entirely depends on what the SRU sees the club teams to be - are they their own entities or are they purely there to develop Scotland players?

If the SRU want Glagow to push on and be successful there's no way that Jackson should go across - you need 2 'International class' stand offs at any club that wants to be successful. They will still get plenty of gametime and the competition will push them on to keep improving.

If however the clubs are there just to develop players then yes Jackson could go to Edinburgh - but at the expense of Glasgow as they may have to rely on less experienced stand offs.

[RDW]

Interview with Dodson in the Scotsman this morning - answers a lot of questions on his view of the future of Scottish rugby:

THE SRU will not battle the English and French clubs to keep both Edinburgh and Glasgow in the Heineken Cup, but they will insist that if one drops out there is no financial penalty for Scottish rugby.

Speaking before leaving South Africa, where he was accompanying the Scotland squad on tour, to return for the union’s annual general meeting, SRU chief executive Mark Dodson insisted that he does not see any swift settlement to the ongoing row between the European unions and club representatives on a new way forward for the Heineken Cup.
The English clubs, under the Premier Rugby Ltd umbrella organisation, have threatened a breakaway from the competition when the current agreement ends next summer, and have signed a new broadcast deal for their European games with BT Vision. The European Rugby Cup (ERC) body, made up of representatives of the home unions, France and Italy, insist that that contract is worthless and they all remain tied to Sky TV, but are hugely concerned at the impasse.
At the heart of the dispute is a belief by English and French clubs that they deserve a greater share of the financial pot and that Scotland, Ireland, Italy and Wales should not have guaranteed places in the competition.
There has been much talk of making the Celtic nations qualify through the RaboDirect PRO12, with the top six or eight automatically going into a slimmed-down 20-team tournament, and the rest dropping into the second-tier Amlin Challenge Cup. Dodson insisted that he was confident, despite Edinburgh finishing this season in tenth spot, that both Scottish teams would qualify automatically. If they did not, he said he would have no problem with the side that did not dropping into the Challenge Cup, but only if there was no change to the £5m that the SRU received annually from ERC for competing.
“The PRL’s position is that they are going to ‘gift’ us and ‘gift’ Wales one team place with one to qualify, but it is not theirs to gift.
“If that happened, actually, it does not sound like a disaster, but it depends how it is firmed up. If they want to go for a competitive sporting format change they have to give us something back for that. In many ways I am not frightened of the ability to qualify. We shouldn’t be. If we have two decent teams then we should always have the ability to qualify.
“But we are going to fight tooth and nail to keep two in. We have a variety of scenarios being pushed towards us and I want to choose the best scenario. The best scenario in my opinion is one in and one [to qualify] plus the same money. If I have to do that I will talk to the board and see what I can do.
“But why should we fight for two and a half million pounds we have already got? It is just wrong and unfair. Why should six English and six French clubs qualify by right, and yet they want to make it seven or eight. Why should that be the case?
“It is not their competition. The accord [agreement] is there, first and foremost, to promote European club rugby and underpin international rugby in the northern hemisphere. It [the PRL proposal] does neither of those things.”
The argument from the English clubs is that their top 12 clubs are all better than half of the RaboDirect Pro12 sides and so they deserve to have more teams qualifying.
The fact that Scottish teams have qualified for the quarter-finals just twice in 18 years – Edinburgh reached the last eight in 2003-4 and the semi-finals last year – has not strengthened the SRU cause, but the debate will rage late into this year and Dodson is determined not to accept any compromise that leaves the SRU out of pocket.
He will report to the AGM at Murrayfield on Saturday that the union has made a modest profit this year – over £1 million, but slightly down on last year, as he invests more in the professional teams but continues to lower the debt pile which currently sits around £12m.
He is facing pressure at pro and Test level to improve the quality of players coming through the system and increase the number of opportunities for young players stuck in the bottleneck of a game in Scotland that has just two professional squads.
The current South Africa tour has handed nine uncapped players Test chances, and most have proven themselves worthy, but in a two-team environment many would have struggled for chances to prove themselves as top pros and are here because Scotland are seriously depleted by injuries and Lions call-ups.
There is a clear need for a third professional side, but Dodson dismissed that as an impossible dream, even with the European revenues remaining at the same level, and does not see a third pro team returning until Glasgow and Edinburgh are attracting crowds of more than 10,000, and so giving them a chance of covering costs.
“We will not make a third team in Scotland until we have made the other two cash positive,” he said. “The cost of running a pro team is enormous, so we would go from a small surplus to an increased loss. And there is no appetite for anyone to take a third team on. We know that from the people who have talked to us since I took the job. They are not serious about taking on a third team in a professional environment, being prepared to lose a significant amount of money year after year after year.
“So, we are where we are. There is a structural issue in Scottish rugby in the sense that we don’t get enough players into the hopper and we don’t make the most of the talent that we’ve got, so what we have to do is make the very best of our academy structure so we don’t lose any talented players.
“We are going to announce changes to the academy structure in late summer that should start to rectify some of these issues, but these are structural issues that have been in Scottish rugby for 20 or 30 years, and they are not going to be rectified in 12 months. What we have to do is first get the finances sorted out, second pare down our debt and thirdly start making our two pro teams as healthy as we can.
“Of course, we would like to look at a third professional team somewhere down the line and if the finances allowed us to do that then we would.”
For many the introduction of professionalism and money has been the root of all evil in rugby, but there is no escaping that it now holds the key to Scotland’s ongoing struggle to survive in the professional world

[RDW]

http://m.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/edinburgh-head-coach-has-to-rebuild-from-bottom-up-1-2969932

EDINBURGH WERE OFFERED SEAN MAITLAND BUT TURNED HIM DOWN 'BECAUSE THEY HAD ENOUGH WINGERS'!!!!!!!!

Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

Rage!

What useless idiot made that decision??!!

[Majestic83]

Turning down Maitland just sums up Edinburgh at the moment!!!

[George Carlin]

I'm laughing so hard I think I peed a little.

"Sean Maitland? Don't need the feller. We've got Sep Visser and Lee Jones."

[RDW]

Thanks for the understanding guys!

[Manky-Flanker]

, nothing else to say!

[EWT Spoons]

Being very generous here, but when Maitland was signed up by the SRU, Lee Jones had just been capped and was part of the side that got us to the HC semi.  Along with that, Brown was looking decent and Farndale was/still is coming through and I think Fyfe was still thought of as a winger, and  we obviously had Visser as well.  I guess the thinking probably was that if Jones continued to progress then he could make that wing his own, with Visser on the other side and with Brown, Farndale, Fyfe etc as potential cover.  So if we only get one marquee signing over and above the wage budget would it make sense for it to be another winger?

Clearly in hindsight the answer should have been YES!! Given the nightmare Lee Jones has had, but I can almost understand the decision not to given the other areas of weakness in the side.
 
But saying all that I’ve had a reasonable morning so far, so maybe I’m just looking at this through “it’s not Monday anymore” glasses.

[RDW]

I think you are being incredibly generous there! Let’s not forget that the Maitland signing came about when the season was well under way.  We had already discovered that Lee Jones was in horrific form and Farndale was out injured for a year.  That left us with Visser and a load of young pups.  In fact I’d go as far to say that winger was one of our positions definitely needing strengthened last season!
 
Combine that with the fact that Glasgow had in their back 3; Lamont, Lamont, DTH, Seymour, Hogg, Murchie, Paris I think it’s fair to say Glasgow most definitely didn’t need another back 3 player!
 

I wanna find out who made that decision and take a dump on their doorstep.

[EWT Spoons]

Fair.  I was just trying to justify the decision not to sign him, more to myself than anything else.

There might have still been some hope that Jones would get over his nightmare start to the season and when Farndale came back etc..

Failing that we had our eye on some other player we wanted over and above our wage budget and in the end it didn't happen.

Or I guess the most likely scenario - the person who made the decision is an idiot.

[RDW]

And the signing of Nikki Walker and Jack feckin Cuthbert shows that someone now thinks that we do need to strengthen our wings!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[funnyExiledScot]

Whoever made that decision should be put in the stocks! It shows a complete and utter lack of rugby knowledge and is one of the worst rugby judgement calls I can remember.

I want to know who made that decision. I want to know whether they are still involved with Edinburgh or the SRU. I pray that it was Michael Bradley, but the more I hear, the more I'm convinced he had little to do with signing players. He was just a bad coach.

We sign Cuthbert and Walker in the same calendar year as we decide we don't need Sean Maitland. That decision is so bad I can only assume that the person involved is trying to sabotage Edinburgh.

[Manky-Flanker]

And the signing of Nikki Walker and Jack feckin Cuthbert shows that someone now thinks that we do need to strengthen our wings!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to put a 'g' or two in your Ahhhhhhhhhhhh's. Without those g's it sounds more like you're reclining in an exclusive gentleman's club sampling the bouquet of your Don Perignon.

[funnyExiledScot]

Isn't that what everyone's doing right now in Edinburgh?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Isn't that what everyone's doing right now in Edinburgh?

FES,

that's just the from hampers on match day old boy!:

[jimbopip]

Maitland? No thanks. Piers Feckin Francis? Yes please and we'll charge people £25  to sit in a mausoleum. Dearie me.
 What is wrong with the MFL? Well, Swinson vs Saffers and Gilchrist vs Samoa: contrast and compare as they say.

[George Carlin]

Not sure where to post this but our U20s beat the USA 39-3, with FES's Favourite Foetus scoring two tries and notching 22 of the points. That secures 9th place and means that we qualify for the JWC 2014 automatically.

That's not too bad at all for these lads. No shame in getting battered by an enormous Argentina pack (44-13). Just being edged out 26-21 against Wales who are ranked 3rd in the world, then beating Samoa (a stone per man heavier than us) 36-33. The only reason that we didn't get to the 5th to 8th placed playoff was because France got a bonus point against the Springboks in their game (South Africa won 26-19).

I'm actually pretty pleased with that. Compare it to our full national team ranking.

[RDW]

They need to beat Samoa in the 9th - 10th playoff.

It is a good effort but the same as previous years, and when you see Wales getting to the final (against England) you've got to wonder what they do so differently.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

They need to beat Samoa in the 9th - 10th playoff.

It is a good effort but the same as previous years, and when you see Wales getting to the final (against England) you've got to wonder what they do so differently.

At least this year, the U20s only lost out on qualifying for 5th-th places playoff on points difference, RDW - definitely an improvement and best effort to date

[RDW]

Fair enough, but this is still one of the best under 20s team we have had for a few years now and yet we didn’t manage to improve on our standard 9-12th place playoff slot.
 

And seriously how can Wales get to a final when they are a country similar in makeup to ours? Is it literally just because they have more people playing rugby than we do? How do they address the physical mis-match at that age?

[funnyExiledScot]

Good effort from the kids.

GC - I presume, despite Scott's very strong performance against South Africa on Saturday, that you still want him dropped next season for Bennett?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Fair enough, but this is still one of the best under 20s team we have had for a few years now and yet we didn’t manage to improve on our standard 9-12th place playoff slot.
 

And seriously how can Wales get to a final when they are a country similar in makeup to ours? Is it literally just because they have more people playing rugby than we do? How do they address the physical mis-match at that age?

Much better youth rugby set-up - but we're getting there, slowly.

[George Carlin]

Good effort from the kids.

GC - I presume, despite Scott's very strong performance against South Africa on Saturday, that you still want him dropped next season for Bennett?

Glad you asked. No, I want Bennett to play 8 more seasons of Rabo rugby first. You can't be too hasty with these call ups. A wise man in cream chinos waiting for a tram told me that once.

[funnyExiledScot]

8 more seasons?? When did he play his first??

I've actually transitioned into full safari suit attire now (think Octopussy). It's been above 10 degrees in Edinburgh for a whole week.....and I shall never use public transport....never!

[George Carlin]

FES From Del Monte - he say, "no, not for another season".

[funnyExiledScot]

Wise words!

[123456789]

I think it's about the fitness aspect of it, the English and Welsh u20s are at another level physically to our players. The way around it would be to bring in an academy system aged sixteen and focus on improving the players' diet and physical condition as well as the skills of players under pressure. Even at senior level physically the Welsh are better because they play at a higher level, under more pressure at a younger age. Scotland has a lot of talented players, probably a similar amount to England and Wales, but our players play at a level way inferior to them.
Scotland needs to split the country up into four regions and base an academy in each of them, and go looking for the best players in the area and then taking them into an academy where they work nearly full time on rugby in a competitive and elite environment. Theses regions could play each other and perhaps try to play Irish and Welsh provinces and regions in a youth league system bringing in competitive rugby from a very early age. Once we have developed enough good young players we can bring in more pro teams, the results will follow and so will the fans and therefore the money and the investors. This will help the national side in the long term much more than spending a similar amount of money on players around 24 years old and paying a fortune to keep them for three years and then play them for Scotland.
We need to focus more on developing coaches at all levels from the very lowest ages to the very highest and that means investing money at the lowest level, it's a simple plan if you invest money at the lowest level it will have a multiplier effect and pay dividends at international level.

[funnyExiledScot]

We could also make far better use of the pro sides in terms of bringing young players through, and giving them exposure to professional training sessions etc.

But I agree with your gist.

[EST]

We really are lightyears behind other unions in terms of integrating our under 20's setup with the pro teams.  The EDP is a good platform, but many of the guys in the program have all ready graduated from the U20 set up or come from club rugby.  When you look at the available U20 players only a relatively small group are affiliated to pro clubs (this year was a possible exception to the rule).  When we get players who have been integrated earlier than most: Adam Ashe, Jonny Gray, Adam Sinclair etc - then they generally perform well.  

We need to get the rest of these guys up to speed quicker, especially in the front row where we really struggle, how we go about doing this is very difficult with only two clubs.

[Imperialbigdave]

More focus needs to be put into getting our front rowers playing at a higher level, earlier. Its always been where we struggle at u20's level, while we are actually fairly competitive in most other positions.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think that's a good point. Our young front rowers just seem to be fat kids, whereas other nations seem to get their props and hookers into proper conditioning programes much earlier.

Still, looking forward to seeing how young Alex Allan develops at Edinburgh. Promising player.

[Manky-Flanker]

As an aside, does anybody have information on the recovery of Mike Cusack and Ross Rennie? Hope to see them fighting fit soon, as both made significant contributions to Glasgow and Edinburgh last season.

[RDW]

There's been absolutely nothing on Rennie, although I did see on Twitter that him and Nikki Walker were training on the Watt bike, suggesting he isn't completely crippled.

[funnyExiledScot]

Ross Rennie is fundamental to Edinburgh. Crucial in defence, but it's his offloading and passing game that gets us really stepping up a gear. Grant and Watson are no more than solid in comparison. They can do the defensive stuff ok (although neither have Rennie's ability to strip the ball in the tackle), but in attack Rennie is really top class.

Cusack equally important to Glasgow. Low and Welsh can cover, but Cusack is a real weapon in the scrum. The Cusack-MacArthur-Grant front row is really well balanced, with a combination of set piece power and workrate.

[cakeordeath]

It can't be long until Cusack qualifies for Scotland. Sadly I think it might be just after the 6 nations

[funnyExiledScot]

That's an encouraging thought. A Cusack-Ford-Grant front row would cause some problems, particularly with Big Jim and Richie Gray in the boiler room. Just the front 5 for a monsoon afternoon at Murrayfield.

[George Carlin]

Big Mike isn't SQ until June 2014 when I think he'll be 28. I think that means he's going to be a very useful option to have, but perhaps we'll continue to bring on our other front rows in the meanwhilst.

[funnyExiledScot]

Quite right - I particularly want to see Murray Low develop. His progress seems to have stalled lately, and I'm not sure this whole switch with Jon Welsh has helped either of them.

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