Lions v Barbarians (Official Match Thread)

[mrzimmerman]

First topic message reminder :

The team has been named. What do you think? Predictions for the match?

British & Irish Lions:
S Hogg (Scotland); A Cuthbert (Wales), J Davies (Wales), J Roberts (Wales), S Maitland (Scotland); O Farrell (England), M Phillips (Wales); M Vunipola (England), R Hibbard (Wales), A Jones (Wales), R Gray (Scotland), P O’Connell (Ireland, capt), D Lydiate (Wales), J Tipuric (Wales), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: T Youngs (England), C Healy (Ireland), M Stevens (England), A W Jones (Wales), J Heaslip (Ireland), C Murray (Ireland), J Sexton (Ireland), G North (Wales).


Barbarians:
15 Jared Payne, 14 Joe Rokocoko, 13 Elliot Daly, 12 Casey Laulala, 11 Taku Ngwenya, 10 Nick Evans, 9 Dimitri Yachvili, 8 Sergio Parisse,
7 Sam Jones, 6 Samu Manoa, 5 Dean Mumm, 4 Marco Wentzel, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Schalk Brits, 1 Paul James.

Replacements: 16 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17 Duncan Jones, 18 Jim Hamilton, 19 Imanol Harinordoquy, 20 Andrea Lo Cicero, 21 Kahn Fotuali'i, 22 James Hook, 23 Mike Tindall.

[wanderingdragon]

Those people who are still wondering why Lydiate is with the Lions should watch this. For those of you from east of the Severn Bridge this is what 'turning up in a Grand Slam game' looks like!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hD6cbaRANE

There is a reason he was named player of the 6N tournament in 2012!

[Scrumdown]

Those people who are still wondering why Lydiate is with the Lions should watch this. For those of you from east of the Severn Bridge this is what 'turning up in a Grand Slam game' looks like!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hD6cbaRANE

There is a reason he was named player of the 6N tournament in 2012!

A proven test match animal and Gatland knows it.

[flyhalffactory]

I would pick him every time, he is the best 6 in the NH in my mind. But you really shoot yourself in the foot when you bang on with your one-liners on the welsh players test records

Take out the 6Ns and you have Dans proven record in "test matches"

won v Argentina Millennium Stadium 21 Nov 2009
won v Argentina Millennium Stadium 20 Aug 2011
won v Samoa Hamilton 18 Sep 2011
won v Ireland Wellington 8 Oct 2011
draw v Fiji Millennium Stadium 19 Nov 2010
lost v Australia Millennium Stadium 28 Nov 2009
lost v Australia Millennium Stadium 6 Nov 2010
lost v New Zealand Millennium Stadium 27 Nov 2010
lost v Barbarians Millennium Stadium 4 Jun 2011
lost v South Africa Wellington 11 Sep 2011
lost v France Auckland 15 Oct 2011
lost v Australia Auckland 21 Oct 2011
lost v Australia Millennium Stadium 3 Dec 2011
lost v Australia Brisbane 9 Jun 2012
lost v Australia Melbourne 16 Jun 2012
lost v Australia Sydney 23 Jun 2012

Winner = 4 out of 16 matches or 25%
Loser = 11 out of 16 matches or 69%

Dan has only been a victor against the Pumas twice at home, Samoa, and Ireland at the WC. More importantly he has proven 100% record against Australia that's seven straight defeats. Is this what you mean by a "proven" test player?

These are the home nations test results
lost v England Millennium Stadium 4 Feb 2011 Details
won v Scotland Murrayfield 12 Feb 2011 Details
won v Italy Rome 26 Feb 2011 Details
won v Ireland Millennium Stadium 12 Mar 2011 Details
lost v France Stade de France 19 Mar 2011 Details
lost v England Twickenham 6 Aug 2011 Details
won v England Millennium Stadium 13 Aug 2011 Details
won v Scotland Millennium Stadium 12 Feb 2012 Details
won v England Twickenham 25 Feb 2012 Details
won v Italy Millennium Stadium 10 Mar 2012 Details
won v France Millennium Stadium 17 Mar 2012 Details

[maestegmafia]

I would pick him every time, he is the best 6 in the NH in my mind. But you really shoot yourself in the foot when you bang on with your one-liners on the welsh players test records

Take out the 6Ns and you have Dans proven record in "test matches"

won v Argentina Millennium Stadium 21 Nov 2009
won v Argentina Millennium Stadium 20 Aug 2011
won v Samoa Hamilton 18 Sep 2011
won v Ireland Wellington 8 Oct 2011
draw v Fiji Millennium Stadium 19 Nov 2010
lost v Australia Millennium Stadium 28 Nov 2009
lost v Australia Millennium Stadium 6 Nov 2010
lost v New Zealand Millennium Stadium 27 Nov 2010
lost v Barbarians Millennium Stadium 4 Jun 2011
lost v South Africa Wellington 11 Sep 2011
lost v France Auckland 15 Oct 2011
lost v Australia Auckland 21 Oct 2011
lost v Australia Millennium Stadium 3 Dec 2011
lost v Australia Brisbane 9 Jun 2012
lost v Australia Melbourne 16 Jun 2012
lost v Australia Sydney 23 Jun 2012

Winner = 4 out of 16 matches or 25%
Loser = 11 out of 16 matches or 69%

Dan has only been a victor against the Pumas twice at home, Samoa, and Ireland at the WC. More importantly he has proven 100% record against Australia that's seven straight defeats. Is this what you mean by a "proven" test player?

These are the home nations test results
lost v England Millennium Stadium 4 Feb 2011 Details
won v Scotland Murrayfield 12 Feb 2011 Details
won v Italy Rome 26 Feb 2011 Details
won v Ireland Millennium Stadium 12 Mar 2011 Details
lost v France Stade de France 19 Mar 2011 Details
lost v England Twickenham 6 Aug 2011 Details
won v England Millennium Stadium 13 Aug 2011 Details
won v Scotland Millennium Stadium 12 Feb 2012 Details
won v England Twickenham 25 Feb 2012 Details
won v Italy Millennium Stadium 10 Mar 2012 Details
won v France Millennium Stadium 17 Mar 2012 Details

They are not Dan Lydiates results, they are the welsh Squads results.

I see your point FHF, though I think Lydiate is being singled out by some fans here, as Warburton is on other threads. Why worry about Lydiate and not Richie Gray?

Why be concerned about Warburtons injury not Sean O'Brien? When the real issue is actually going to be how the Halfbacks play.

I hope Mike Phollips continues where he left off for Wales, won of his best games in years, and I hope Farrell plays as he did vs The All Blacks one of the only decent games he has played.

[flyhalffactory]

Maesteg

These are not all the Welsh results against SH opposition these are just the games Lydiate has played in. I wouldn't be shocked if we looked at the Welsh results against SH opposition it would paint an even darker picture.

I am replying to scrumdowns one liner.......... "He is a proven test player", the usual guff to justify any Welsh selection. Of course he is a proven test player he proven he has lost (meaning he has been a contributor) nearly 70% of welsh games against SH opposition since he debuted, and lost all seven games against the Lions test opponents.

I am not worried about Lydiate as I think he is the bees knees and I have said well before Gartlands' Lions selection that he should go.

The fact is that if a poster wants to wack in a silly comment with no basis or fact then he should be prepared to be challenged, its posters like him who are tarring the good posters like yourself to the same brush.

[maestegmafia]

Maesteg

These are not all the Welsh results against SH opposition these are just the games Lydiate has played in. I wouldn't be shocked if we looked at the Welsh results against SH opposition it would paint an even darker picture.

I am replying to scrumdowns one liner.......... "He is a proven test player", the usual guff to justify any Welsh selection. Of course he is a proven test player he proven he has lost (meaning he has been a contributor) nearly 70% of welsh games against SH opposition since he debuted, and lost all seven games against the Lions test opponents.

I am not worried about Lydiate as I think he is the bees knees and I have said well before Gartlands' Lions selection that he should go.

The fact is that if a poster wants to wack in a silly comment with no basis or fact then he should be prepared to be challenged, its posters like him who are tarring the good posters like yourself to the same brush.

I agree with you mate...! Apologies if my turn of phrase sounded niggly it wasn't intentional or challenging...!

Lydiate is certainly not the reason for a few narrow losses. To be fair Wales are on the ascendency over the last two decades and this is easily forgotten.

It is only of the last few years that the general concencus inside and outside of Wales is that we should beat teams ranked second in the IRB rankings home and away.

If you look at welsh result vs teams like Australia, NZ and SA we have improved dramatically in the last ten years. All for the good work of the game in Wales developing players and the coaching they receive.

Using recent narrow loses to Australia as a stick to beat the welsh lions with is absolutely pathetic, if it wasn't for these players we wouldn't be in the current position where we are expected to win against them.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

very few people in rugby come back full guns blazing after a long stint out. I'm hopeful but not expecting him to play a major part in the tour... he may be ready to perform in club games, I doubt he will be ready for tests.

Like Tom Croft or Paul O'Connell...?

You obviously haven't watched much welsh rugby have you. Lydiate is in great form.

Dan Lydiate played fewer games all of which were meaningless

Why should that count against him? He only played a handful of games for the Dragons before getting injured, so it's hardly his fault that the Dragons were gash in his absence and had nothing but 'meaningless' games to play at the end of the season.

[jimmyinthewell68]

poor Dan i hope he doesn't read these threads . its always going to be the case we all want our fellow kinsman to take the test shirts but i got a feeling it be taken out of Dans hands with tips playing outstanding openside tomorrow that warburton moved to blindside being the captain for the first test .

[GunsGerms]

poor Dan i hope he doesn't read these threads . its always going to be the case we all want our fellow kinsman to take the test shirts but i got a feeling it be taken out of Dans hands with tips playing outstanding openside tomorrow that warburton moved to blindside being the captain for the first test .

Id say Warburton will be 7 with O'Brien more likely at 6 or possibly Lydiate. More balance that way than playing two 7s. Like you say though Im biased toward Irish players.

[red_stag]

Those people who are still wondering why Lydiate is with the Lions should watch this. For those of you from east of the Severn Bridge this is what 'turning up in a Grand Slam game' looks like!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hD6cbaRANE

There is a reason he was named player of the 6N tournament in 2012!

As in the system for judging player of tournament is ridiculously flawed and he now joins Andrea Masi who won it under same system in 2011.

[GunsGerms]

I do rate Wales and the Weslh players very highly but I hope that the test sides are not like this Lions v BaBas side with the vast majority Welsh as it will feel less of a Lions side to me and slightly harder to get behind them. I know that probably sounds a little anti-Wales but its not meant to be.

[munkian]

It doesn't sound anti-Wales, it sounds anti Lions.

Its never about equal represenation of the 4 Nations, once they wear a Lions shirt they are a Lion, doesn't matter what country they play for. People seem to forget that more and more, especially on here.

I think I'm going to leave these boards for the next month or so, the xenophobic finger pointing will just wind me up and make me angry.

I'm watching the game tomorrow with an English man, and Irish girl and couple of Americans. We'll alll be Lions fans though

[red_stag]

poor Dan i hope he doesn't read these threads . its always going to be the case we all want our fellow kinsman to take the test shirts but i got a feeling it be taken out of Dans hands with tips playing outstanding openside tomorrow that warburton moved to blindside being the captain for the first test .

Id say Warburton will be 7 with O'Brien more likely at 6 or possibly Lydiate. More balance that way than playing two 7s. Like you say though Im biased toward Irish players.

I expect either Jamie Heaslip or Tom Croft to make the starting team in order to give them a real lineout option at the tail. To me Sean O'Brien is the ideal bench man. Covers all positions and will bring on an explosive ball carrying ability.

I don't rate Lydiate much as an all rounder but he is a superb tackler and reminds me a bit of Joe Worsley in his style of play. I don't feel he deserves to be on tour ahead of many other backrows but now that he is here he stands as much a chance of anyone as starting. I think we're either looking at:

06 Lydiate
07 Warburton
08 Heaslip

or else what some else suggested moving Warburton:

06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

with Sean O'Brien covering on the bench. Equally I think Croft, Warburton, Falatau is a well balanced unit but will Warburton play as well alongside Croft? I suppose thats what the warm up games are for.

As much as you'd hate to think Gatland has his test team picked you'd have to imagine he has given it some thought.

Realistically he has 4 games to make up his mind.

- Barbarians
- Western Force
- Queensland Reds
- NSW/QLD Combined Counties

The Waratahs game is 7 days before the first test and the Brumbies game is just 4 days before it. Realistically he needs to have decided by the Tahs game.

Given that one of the games is against the Barbarians and he isn't playing with a full deck he has really three matches to check out different combos.

[maestegmafia]

I do rate Wales and the Weslh players very highly but I hope that the test sides are not like this Lions v BaBas side with the vast majority Welsh as it will feel less of a Lions side to me and slightly harder to get behind them. I know that probably sounds a little anti-Wales but its not meant to be.

In the 90s when the sides were predominantly English we all got behind them, why could you not do so now that Wales are the dominant side in the Home Nations?

[Guest]

Guns, I'm pretty sure it's just due to availability that this team is so Welsh biased. I'm expecting it to be more even as we get through the warm up games and into the tests. Although saying that, I want them to pick the team based on the best players who put their hands up over the next few weeks. If the welsh players are all gash then I'm more than happy for them to not feature; but if they play better then their rivals then I want them selected, although that will cause huge hissy fits on here (luckily real life is nothing like these ridiculous boards).

[red_stag]

Guns - I find that really weird. Its not like the Lions are ever made up predominantly of Irish players.

[maestegmafia]

poor Dan i hope he doesn't read these threads . its always going to be the case we all want our fellow kinsman to take the test shirts but i got a feeling it be taken out of Dans hands with tips playing outstanding openside tomorrow that warburton moved to blindside being the captain for the first test .

Id say Warburton will be 7 with O'Brien more likely at 6 or possibly Lydiate. More balance that way than playing two 7s. Like you say though Im biased toward Irish players.

I expect either Jamie Heaslip or Tom Croft to make the starting team in order to give them a real lineout option at the tail. To me Sean O'Brien is the ideal bench man. Covers all positions and will bring on an explosive ball carrying ability.

I don't rate Lydiate much as an all rounder but he is a superb tackler and reminds me a bit of Joe Worsley in his style of play. I don't feel he deserves to be on tour ahead of many other backrows but now that he is here he stands as much a chance of anyone as starting. I think we're either looking at:

06 Lydiate
07 Warburton
08 Heaslip

or else what some else suggested moving Warburton:

06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

with Sean O'Brien covering on the bench. Equally I think Croft, Warburton, Falatau is a well balanced unit but will Warburton play as well alongside Croft? I suppose thats what the warm up games are for.

As much as you'd hate to think Gatland has his test team picked you'd have to imagine he has given it some thought.

Realistically he has 4 games to make up his mind.

- Barbarians
- Western Force
- Queensland Reds
- NSW/QLD Combined Counties

The Waratahs game is 7 days before the first test and the Brumbies game is just 4 days before it. Realistically he needs to have decided by the Tahs game.

Given that one of the games is against the Barbarians and he isn't playing with a full deck he has really three matches to check out different combos.

SOB is an outstanding option for the test side though he is more of an injury worry than Warburton, he's been out for nearly four weeks.

Croft is a great line out option and a fantastically fast attacking player, a real try scorer in the Colin Charvis mould. But his last international match he went missing big time. He has a lot to prove to make the test team on more than reputation. He definitely has the ability.

Blindside is likely the most competitive position in the squad.

[GunsGerms]

It doesn't sound anti-Wales, it sounds anti Lions.

Its never about equal represenation of the 4 Nations, once they wear a Lions shirt they are a Lion, doesn't matter what country they play for. People seem to forget that more and more, especially on here.

I think I'm going to leave these boards for the next month or so, the xenophobic finger pointing will just wind me up and make me angry.

I'm watching the game tomorrow with an English man, and Irish girl and couple of Americans. We'll alll be Lions fans though

Dont be silly you will find it hard to find a less anti lions person than me. Absolutly love the Lions, almost as much as Ireland. If you are suggesting that I am xenaphobic then you are probably better off not commenting on a forum like this as you appear a little over sensitive perhaps if you throw out words like this willy nilly.

The Lions is about having a mix of players for all Lions nations. Gatland when he took over the Wales job selected an almost exclusively Ospreys team and won the six nations. It wouldnt be a shock if he picked all Welsh guys for obvious reasons. It would make it less interesting for me though.

[GunsGerms]

I do rate Wales and the Weslh players very highly but I hope that the test sides are not like this Lions v BaBas side with the vast majority Welsh as it will feel less of a Lions side to me and slightly harder to get behind them. I know that probably sounds a little anti-Wales but its not meant to be.

In the 90s when the sides were predominantly English we all got behind them, why could you not do so now that Wales are the dominant side in the Home Nations?

I will of course get behind them no matter what. If the best players are all Welsh at time of selecting so be it. The point Im making is its much more interesting when there is a mix in my opinion.

[red_stag]

Without a doubt Maestegmafia,

Even from guys not on tour. Ryan Jones and Kelly Brown are as good as any #6 in Britain or Ireland. Peter O'Mahony was touted by many as a dark horse. Tom Wood stood a chance of touring.

The battle between O'Brien v Croft v Lydiate will be very interesting especially as there is still the option of Tipuric forcing Warburton across to the #6 shirt.

To be honest I'm not that fussed on who I see in the backrow. There are oodles of units. I have to say I think the Lydiate, Warburton, Falatau axis is not the most effective but if its selected I wont mind that much.

I think that the front row battle has been thrown wide open with Hartleys dismissal plus Gethin Jenkins injury.

I envisioned a situation where they would want to keep national units together in the front row and could have really seen Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones starting the games being replaced by Vunipola, Hartley and Stevens. However I think things have shifted here and we're likely to see some more vareity.

[GunsGerms]

Guns - I find that really weird. Its not like the Lions are ever made up predominantly of Irish players.

Not sure you understood the point I was making. I prefer a mix rather than one nation dominating the side. Not sure what that has to do with predominantly Irish Lions sides.

[red_stag]

Guns - I find that really weird. Its not like the Lions are ever made up predominantly of Irish players.

Not sure you understood the point I was making. I prefer a mix rather than one nation dominating the side. Not sure what that has to do with predominantly Irish Lions sides.

I see your reply now. Makes sense

[Guest]

Each to their own Guns. I don't remember having any problem getting behind the '97 or '01 Lions when there were only 2 or 3 Welsh in the team. It didn't make it slightly harder to get behind (for me). We all want and like different things I guess. C'est la vie!

[jimmyinthewell68]

an Irish man , Welsh man , English man and Scotsman walks into to a bar to watch a rugby match . come on u LIONS

[GunsGerms]

Each to their own Guns. I don't remember having any problem getting behind the '97 or '01 Lions when there were only 2 or 3 Welsh in the team. It didn't make it slightly harder to get behind (for me). We all want and like different things I guess. C'est la vie!

Neither did I. Im not gonna suddenly not support the Lions because they are all Welsh. I think Gatland might select an all Wales team as he selected an all Ospreys team for Wales in the past as it worked well for him. Im not sure that it would be the best mix nor would it be as interesting for me.

We all have our favorite players from other countries as well as our own, I would just like to see them playing. My ideal team is a mix.

[Guest]

A mix is great Guns, totally agree there. But I want to win this so if the warmup games show the best players to be from one nation then get them in the first XV. F**k where they're from! A mix would be a nice coincidence for me, but nothing more, otherwise we start going down the dark road of quotas and equal opportunity....!

[GunsGerms]

A mix is great Guns, totally agree there. But I want to win this so if the warmup games show the best players to be from one nation then get them in the first XV. F**k where they're from! A mix would be a nice coincidence for me, but nothing more, otherwise we start going down the dark road of quotas and equal opportunity....!

Im definitely not talking about introducting quotas.


One thing that does annoy me is how coaches go on about combinations. For example for Ireland POC gets picked so DOC in the past had to be picked with him. You know what I mean? It would annoy me if Murray had to be picked because Sexton is starting or Faletau just because Warburton is at 7 etc. etc.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The first Lions tour I ever watched was the 1989 tour to Australia. To the best of my recollection, only five Welshmen featured in the Test series: Mike Hall (first Test, I think?), Dai Young, Robert Jones and Ieuan Evans. Did that bother me? Did it bullocks. I was rapt with the concept and I still am.

[GunsGerms]

The first Lions tour I ever watched was the 1989 tour to Australia. To the best of my recollection, only five Welshmen featured in the Test series: Mike Hall (first Test, I think?), Dai Young, Robert Jones and Ieuan Evans. Did that bother me? Did it bullocks. I was rapt with the concept and I still am.

Five is a lot, what are you on about? There are four countries and 15 spots.



Its not about me wanting more Irish guys because Im Irish its more to do with seeing a mix of my favorite players from all nations than 10 Welsh and a token few from other countries just because it works best that way for combinations and the perception is that it gives us a better chance of winning that way.

[maestegmafia]

I do rate Wales and the Weslh players very highly but I hope that the test sides are not like this Lions v BaBas side with the vast majority Welsh as it will feel less of a Lions side to me and slightly harder to get behind them. I know that probably sounds a little anti-Wales but its not meant to be.

In the 90s when the sides were predominantly English we all got behind them, why could you not do so now that Wales are the dominant side in the Home Nations?

I will of course get behind them no matter what. If the best players are all Welsh at time of selecting so be it. The point Im making is its much more interesting when there is a mix in my opinion.

I agree a good mix would be great. There are so many talented players available from all the countries and from the clippings I have read they are all enjoying the mix, the abundance of talent to train with.

I have seen quite a few tours in my life time, I have met a few players who have played tests for the lions, even got to go to SA in 2009 and meet the coaches and a few players. It is such a fantastic concept, unity, commeradery and when the best of the best get together they push each other to reach higher levels.it is a special experience.

There are always controversial selections, gambles and wildcard/bolters, but the tour is unique and rare.
We cherish it for being so.

[Submachine]

Without a doubt Maestegmafia,

Even from guys not on tour. Ryan Jones and Kelly Brown are as good as any #6 in Britain or Ireland. Peter O'Mahony was touted by many as a dark horse. Tom Wood stood a chance of touring.

The battle between O'Brien v Croft v Lydiate will be very interesting especially as there is still the option of Tipuric forcing Warburton across to the #6 shirt.

To be honest I'm not that fussed on who I see in the backrow. There are oodles of units. I have to say I think the Lydiate, Warburton, Falatau axis is not the most effective but if its selected I wont mind that much.

I think that the front row battle has been thrown wide open with Hartleys dismissal plus Gethin Jenkins injury.

I envisioned a situation where they would want to keep national units together in the front row and could have really seen Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones starting the games being replaced by Vunipola, Hartley and Stevens. However I think things have shifted here and we're likely to see some more vareity.

Of all the back rows selected, I wonder who would have been cut if Stephen Ferris had been available.

[maestegmafia]

Without a doubt Maestegmafia,

Even from guys not on tour. Ryan Jones and Kelly Brown are as good as any #6 in Britain or Ireland. Peter O'Mahony was touted by many as a dark horse. Tom Wood stood a chance of touring.

The battle between O'Brien v Croft v Lydiate will be very interesting especially as there is still the option of Tipuric forcing Warburton across to the #6 shirt.

To be honest I'm not that fussed on who I see in the backrow. There are oodles of units. I have to say I think the Lydiate, Warburton, Falatau axis is not the most effective but if its selected I wont mind that much.

I think that the front row battle has been thrown wide open with Hartleys dismissal plus Gethin Jenkins injury.

I envisioned a situation where they would want to keep national units together in the front row and could have really seen Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones starting the games being replaced by Vunipola, Hartley and Stevens. However I think things have shifted here and we're likely to see some more vareity.

Of all the back rows selected, I wonder who would have been cut if Stephen Ferris had been available.

Unfortunately for Ferris we will never know.

How is he progressing with his recovery ?

[jimmyinthewell68]

[quote="GunsGerms"]

The first Lions tour I ever watched was the 1989 tour to Australia. To the best of my recollection, only five Welshmen featured in the Test series: Mike Hall (first Test, I think?), Dai Young, Robert Jones and Ieuan Evans. Did that bother me? Did it bullocks. I was rapt with the concept and I still am.

Five is a lot, what are you on about? There are four countries and 15 spots.



think he means five Welsh out of the whole tour side

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The first Lions tour I ever watched was the 1989 tour to Australia. To the best of my recollection, only five Welshmen featured in the Test series: Mike Hall (first Test, I think?), Dai Young, Robert Jones and Ieuan Evans. Did that bother me? Did it bullocks. I was rapt with the concept and I still am.

Five is a lot, what are you on about? There are four countries and 15 spots.



Its not about me wanting more Irish guys because Im Irish its more to do with seeing a mix of my favorite players from all nations than 10 Welsh and a token few from other countries just because it works best that way for combinations and the perception is that it gives us a better chance of winning that way.

Sorry, I can't count: I should have said four - three for the second and third Tests. What I'm trying to say is that the Lions have never been about how many Welshmen made the Test side, just as I've never supported Wales based on how many Dragons players are involved (which is just as well!). I want to see us win and that means selecting the best players these islands have to offer.

[Submachine]

Without a doubt Maestegmafia,

Even from guys not on tour. Ryan Jones and Kelly Brown are as good as any #6 in Britain or Ireland. Peter O'Mahony was touted by many as a dark horse. Tom Wood stood a chance of touring.

The battle between O'Brien v Croft v Lydiate will be very interesting especially as there is still the option of Tipuric forcing Warburton across to the #6 shirt.

To be honest I'm not that fussed on who I see in the backrow. There are oodles of units. I have to say I think the Lydiate, Warburton, Falatau axis is not the most effective but if its selected I wont mind that much.

I think that the front row battle has been thrown wide open with Hartleys dismissal plus Gethin Jenkins injury.

I envisioned a situation where they would want to keep national units together in the front row and could have really seen Jenkins, Hibbard and Jones starting the games being replaced by Vunipola, Hartley and Stevens. However I think things have shifted here and we're likely to see some more vareity.

Of all the back rows selected, I wonder who would have been cut if Stephen Ferris had been available.

Unfortunately for Ferris we will never know.

How is he progressing with his recovery ?

Think I heard he has to have another op on the ankle and could be out for another six months.

[red_stag]

For this game it was only going to be mainly Welsh. The only two changes that could have been made were the inclusions of Matt Stevens and Conor Murray.

All other non Welsh players were unavailable.

[munkian]

It doesn't sound anti-Wales, it sounds anti Lions.

Its never about equal represenation of the 4 Nations, once they wear a Lions shirt they are a Lion, doesn't matter what country they play for. People seem to forget that more and more, especially on here.

I think I'm going to leave these boards for the next month or so, the xenophobic finger pointing will just wind me up and make me angry.

I'm watching the game tomorrow with an English man, and Irish girl and couple of Americans. We'll alll be Lions fans though

Dont be silly you will find it hard to find a less anti lions person than me. Absolutly love the Lions, almost as much as Ireland. If you are suggesting that I am xenaphobic then you are probably better off not commenting on a forum like this as you appear a little over sensitive perhaps if you throw out words like this willy nilly.

The Lions is about having a mix of players for all Lions nations. Gatland when he took over the Wales job selected an almost exclusively Ospreys team and won the six nations. It wouldnt be a shock if he picked all Welsh guys for obvious reasons. It would make it less interesting for me though.

Over sensitive ? Not me dude, just getting a little sick of many posters who take any oppotunity to poke holes in the Lions squad to try and get 'one up' for their county.

You weren't included in that by the way, I just went off into a rant

[flyhalffactory]

Maesteg

These are not all the Welsh results against SH opposition these are just the games Lydiate has played in. I wouldn't be shocked if we looked at the Welsh results against SH opposition it would paint an even darker picture.

I am replying to scrumdowns one liner.......... "He is a proven test player", the usual guff to justify any Welsh selection. Of course he is a proven test player he proven he has lost (meaning he has been a contributor) nearly 70% of welsh games against SH opposition since he debuted, and lost all seven games against the Lions test opponents.

I am not worried about Lydiate as I think he is the bees knees and I have said well before Gartlands' Lions selection that he should go.

The fact is that if a poster wants to wack in a silly comment with no basis or fact then he should be prepared to be challenged, its posters like him who are tarring the good posters like yourself to the same brush.

I agree with you mate...! Apologies if my turn of phrase sounded niggly it wasn't intentional or challenging...!

Lydiate is certainly not the reason for a few narrow losses. To be fair Wales are on the ascendency over the last two decades and this is easily forgotten.

It is only of the last few years that the general concencus inside and outside of Wales is that we should beat teams ranked second in the IRB rankings home and away.

If you look at welsh result vs teams like Australia, NZ and SA we have improved dramatically in the last ten years. All for the good work of the game in Wales developing players and the coaching they receive.

Using recent narrow loses to Australia as a stick to beat the welsh lions with is absolutely pathetic, if it wasn't for these players we wouldn't be in the current position where we are expected to win against them.

Maesteg buddy, I certainly didn't think you were niggly or contentious, its always a good read when I chat to you.

The point is some teams in sport are built on history and make up to win their home based games and yet cannae be competitive on a European or World stage.

Take Football as an example and two teams Manchester United and Notts Forest....... during Alex Fergusons 26 year tenure Man Utd have won 32 home based trophies (13 of them the Premiership) yet they have been victorious with the European Cup (Champions League) only on 2 occasions, conversely Notts Forest won only 1 First Division (1978) in 1978-1981 were nowhere close to being the best in England yet won 2 European Cups in 79 and 80. So Man Utd consistently "Best of British" but "so close yet so far" in Europe, whilst Notts Forest not even close to being "British Best" but were classed "Europes Elite"...... it was plainly obviously Forest had the type of management/players to perform better on the European stage, and Utd have the type of mental makeup to win in Britain. Crux of the matter just because a team is best at beating close neighbours doesn't necessary make them the best options to play other teams

I see Wales akin to Man Utd: a squad that since the last Lions tour have won over 70% of games against 6Ns teams in Feb/Mar in each of the last 4 years yet in the same time period have lost over 70% of games in Jun/Jul and Oct/Nov against SH teams. This tour is as much about mind-set and it is about form and ability.

In fact I might be wrong but I have done the maths and they are the worst of the 4 nations against SH team over the last 4 years.

However good the welsh players have been in the 6Ns over the last four years (and we know they collectively have been awesome), I believe Gatland has missed a trick in not selecting key players with experience of grinding out victories against SH teams.

I don't want to labour the point but last year apart from Lydiate I do believe that was the strongest, fittest and best prepared Welsh squad ever, pitched against what has been described as one of the poorest Australian squads ever........... so the narrow losses really don't come into it. They (Wales) were expected to win, the Welsh management and players stated they expected to win and yet they didn't.

So some posters who bang on about Wales and "test victories" as a criteria for Lions selection should realise what they are saying.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

poor Dan i hope he doesn't read these threads . its always going to be the case we all want our fellow kinsman to take the test shirts but i got a feeling it be taken out of Dans hands with tips playing outstanding openside tomorrow that warburton moved to blindside being the captain for the first test .

Id say Warburton will be 7 with O'Brien more likely at 6 or possibly Lydiate. More balance that way than playing two 7s. Like you say though Im biased toward Irish players.

I expect either Jamie Heaslip or Tom Croft to make the starting team in order to give them a real lineout option at the tail. To me Sean O'Brien is the ideal bench man. Covers all positions and will bring on an explosive ball carrying ability.

I don't rate Lydiate much as an all rounder but he is a superb tackler and reminds me a bit of Joe Worsley in his style of play. I don't feel he deserves to be on tour ahead of many other backrows but now that he is here he stands as much a chance of anyone as starting. I think we're either looking at:

06 Lydiate
07 Warburton
08 Heaslip

or else what some else suggested moving Warburton:

06 Warburton
07 Tipuric
08 Heaslip

with Sean O'Brien covering on the bench. Equally I think Croft, Warburton, Falatau is a well balanced unit but will Warburton play as well alongside Croft? I suppose thats what the warm up games are for.

As much as you'd hate to think Gatland has his test team picked you'd have to imagine he has given it some thought.

Realistically he has 4 games to make up his mind.

- Barbarians
- Western Force
- Queensland Reds
- NSW/QLD Combined Counties

The Waratahs game is 7 days before the first test and the Brumbies game is just 4 days before it. Realistically he needs to have decided by the Tahs game.

Given that one of the games is against the Barbarians and he isn't playing with a full deck he has really three matches to check out different combos.

I think people really have ignored this part of backrow play. Really important IMO. Croft and Heaslip are the only very good backrow lineout men on tour.
Also agree that SOB is the supersub option.

[Biltong]

The same happens every lions tour. welsh, Scots and Irish players are talked down by the English fans who know little if anything about rugby outside of the England team, or maybe their club if they have one.

After a few games of supporting the Lions, players of all the home nations they suddenly see how incredibly talented many of the Irish, Scots and Welsh players are.

For a month at least, before they forget and continue on how great JW is...!


Best to just ignore them

Unfortuantely that goes both ways Maes, there is biased and anti English posts as often as there are anti Welsh, Irish or Scottish on here.

[SecretFly]

Doesn't sport do that?
Isn't this a sport (mostly) forum site?
Don't the rugby guys talk more than anyone else on this site!!!?

Anti this'n'that is considered healthy rivalry in sport. Let none of us take it too seriously.

Or better still, let's take it all very seriously and enjoy the sporting sparks of wisdom and bluster.

[Biltong]

Doesn't sport do that?
Isn't this a sport (mostly) forum site?
Don't the rugby guys talk more than anyone else on this site!!!?

Anti this'n'that is considered healthy rivalry in sport. Let none of us take it too seriously.

Or better still, let's take it all very seriously and enjoy the sporting sparks of wisdom and bluster.

Unfortunately some do take it too seriously, but rivalry in sport is one thing, breaking down other teams is another.

[SecretFly]

How do you break down other teams with typed words on a digital page with no coaches or players listening...and most fans not listening either actually?

'Too serious' is too serious. We over-think the idea that our opinions matter and that disparaging words about our special players might somehow become viral and impact on their careers and reputations.

Chattering is what it is here - mostly bunk fluffed up with smart ass lines or a few stats here and there. Heated arguments are just what the doctor ordered IF we enjoyed them rather than pretending we don't.

So when someone attacks BOD, or Heaslip, or Sexton, (as they undoubtedly will in the next few weeks or month!! ), I'll be in for the kiill with my anger, annoyance and sense of hurt. And I'll enjoy every moment of it

[GunsGerms]

Over sensitive ? Not me dude, just getting a little sick of many posters who take any oppotunity to poke holes in the Lions squad to try and get 'one up' for their county.

You weren't included in that by the way, I just went off into a rant

Ok

[BlueNote]

I think it's better if there is a good mix from the 4 nations in the test team, that is what the Lions tradition if about. I'd be (surprised and) disappointed if the Test team has 10 Wales players in it, partly because it wouldn't then genuinely be the 15 best (or so) players from the 4 nations, but using some players to supplement the Welsh team. That kind of thing has happened on some of the tours I've seen - at least twice with England, although the first time, it was inevitable, because England were so far ahead of the rest of us.

With the back row, it's really a question of getting the right balance, they are all terrific players. I'd love to see Tipuric/Heaslip/Croft, but that's probably lacking a bit of grunt.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

A pretty damn good team can be made without any welsh players just to support the theory that this is a match selected with many Irish and English players left out due to their club commitments last week

Healy-youngs-cole
Poc-Gray
Croft-heaslip-sob
Youngs-sexton
Manu-bod
Maitland-Hogg-Bowe

Vuinipola-best-stevens-parling-?-Murray-Farrell-kearney

[Notch]

This is almost the least Welsh side he could have named given his policy of not starting anyone who was involved in a Domestic final.

If Murray was in for Phillips he would have named a non-Welsh player in every position he had an alternative in from the squad of 23 he had before the Leinster, Leicester and Ulster guys joined.

[fa0019]

Did some people actually watch the 01 tour????

Colin Charvis was just to blame.... if not more than JW was in 01. The only difference is that other than his intercept try he had a very good series... Charvis was dire all tour, made accusations to the media and then stuffed up when it mattered most.

[GunsGerms]

This is almost the least Welsh side he could have named given his policy of not starting anyone who was involved in a Domestic final.

If Murray was in for Phillips he would have named a non-Welsh player in every position he had an alternative in from the squad of 23 he had before the Leinster, Leicester and Ulster guys joined.

Thats only because it would be ridiculous to name 15 Welsh players. 9 is obviously still a lot so clearly he had to mix it up a bit or he would have been slated by the press.

[king_carlos]

This side was always going to contain a lot of Welsh guys given Gatland's policy of not starting guys who played last weekend. Just the same way that the first game in Oz will contain very few Welsh players because they played this weekend.

As said before I actually quite like the balance of the side he's picked given those restrictions. I can't wait to see Gray and O'Connell together as a second row, I'm also really looking forward to seeing Tipuric start and seeing how Lydiate is doing (I haven't seen much of him since he returned). Whilst we all, Gatland included, will have ideas about the test team already we can almost guarantee those views will change with injuries and how players perform over the coming weeks.

It's one of the great things about a Lions tour that once you're in the squad it can only take two big performances in the warm ups to get you a test place.

1. A big performance in one of the first few games when everyone's being given a start and lots of different partnerships are being tested. This will get you a place in the weekend side leading up to the test week.

2. A big performance in the game the weekend before the test which can see you hold onto that shirt for the first test.

That to me is what makes the Lions exciting - it's unpredictable. I just really hope the gameplan employed uses the players to the best of their ability and allows guys to show their full skill set.

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