Lions v Reds...

by thebluesmancometh Wed 05 Jun 2013, 2:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

So who will play?

Jenkins
Youngs
Stevens
Parling
???
???
Warburton
???
Youngs
???
???
???
???
???
Kearney

If Gats is to be beleived these players HAVE to start, so who would you play and why?

by Artful_Dodger Thu 06 Jun 2013, 11:51 am

maestegmafia wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Kearney is supposedly going to be available next week. I don't like the look of this team particularly the front row which looks there for the taking at scrum time. None of Jenkins, Youngs or Stevens are big scrummagers.

Hadn't thought of that, but now you mention it...

If Stevens isn't a scrummager, what does he do...?

Good question, best ask Gatland and Rowntree because I sure as hell don't know. In the HC this season he was a penalty machine come scrum time particular in Saracens vs Toulon game.

by GunsGerms Thu 06 Jun 2013, 11:52 am

I certainly will give him a chance as he should be. Hopefully by the time the tests come round he will have shown he can step up to Lions test level.

I think he looked a little overwhlemed v the BaBas. He certainly has talent though.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 11:52 am

So in the centre we get to see what JD2 looks liks at IC and Manu reverts to OC. I assume that for the next match we will see Roberts paired with BOD.

Not sure what it all means though.

by The Saint Thu 06 Jun 2013, 11:55 am

I believe that in Gatlands eyes it is Roberts and BOD who will be the test midfield. Now he's seeing who he can put on the bench out of Davies and Tuilagi.
Front 5 for the tests will likely be Vunipola, Hibbard, Jones, Gray, POC - agreed?

by funnyExiledScot Thu 06 Jun 2013, 11:58 am

To be fair to Gatland it looks like he's making a genuine attempt to give everyone a shot at a test place, and I applaud this selection. It keeps everyone motivated.

The comment about Hogg "not being ready for Lions rugby" based on one pretty decent performance against the Baa Baas in Hong Kong I strongly disagree with. It was one game, and he showed up well in attack with very little counter-attacking ball to work with. The only mistake I can recall is his first touch, when he got smashed by Lualua. Sure, he dropped a couple of 50/50s when tearing into the line, but I see more of a positive there, he was running great lines. If he was poor, then Owen Farrell and Rory Best should go home now.

There's only been two games, and one was an exhibition match against the Baa Baas. Let's not be writing anyone off just yet. To my mind this selection suggests that Gatland certainly isn't.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So in the centre we get to see what JD2 looks liks at IC and Manu reverts to OC. I assume that for the next match we will see Roberts paired with BOD.

Not sure what it all means though.

I am with you on this Tiger. I assume that means Sexton-Roberts-BOD will be seen on Wednesday but does that rule them out of playing the Tahs on Saturday which is what I am assuming is the dress rehearsal of sorts. I assume Gatland would like two thirds of his test team to have a run through together as a unit.

I also am really disappointed that we didn't get to see the Welsh backrow broken up a bit, I hope we don't end up with Croft, SOB, Heaslip again on Wednesday. SOB, Tipuric/Warbs, Heaslip could be a good shout for then.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:02 pm

The Saint wrote:I believe that in Gatlands eyes it is Roberts and BOD who will be the test midfield. Now he's seeing who he can put on the bench out of Davies and Tuilagi.
Front 5 for the tests will likely be Vunipola, Hibbard, Jones, Gray, POC - agreed?

I'm pretty sure there's still a few games and some time before the 1st Test. Of your front five, I certainly don't think Gray and POC are by any means guaranteed to start, and we haven't even seen Jenkins play yet, so I've no idea how you've concluded that Vunipola is a likely Test starter. To me he looks a more likely impact sub, but let's just wait and see how the tour unfolds. You can't call the Test XV whilst there are players on tour who haven't even started a match!

People are getting a bit silly calling the Test XV already - it's game 2 for heavens' sake!!

by The Saint Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:03 pm

Well said Fes.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:03 pm

The Saint wrote:I believe that in Gatlands eyes it is Roberts and BOD who will be the test midfield. Now he's seeing who he can put on the bench out of Davies and Tuilagi.
Front 5 for the tests will likely be Vunipola, Hibbard, Jones, Gray, POC - agreed?

Can't disagree with this thusfar, although I reckon Lock is more open. Of all the locks the only one who I have been disapointed with has been Evans, but even he did not play poorly by anyones standards, he has just been the weakest performer so far.

Certainly POC and Gray ran a superb lineout against the Baa Baas.

by The Saint Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:06 pm

Well in my mind it's Gray and POC, with Parling and AWJ fighting it out for the bench spot. Jenkins is a couple weeks behind but I'm sure he'll do very well as always, though I suspect he will be a bit rusty in this game.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:06 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
The Saint wrote:I believe that in Gatlands eyes it is Roberts and BOD who will be the test midfield. Now he's seeing who he can put on the bench out of Davies and Tuilagi.
Front 5 for the tests will likely be Vunipola, Hibbard, Jones, Gray, POC - agreed?

I'm pretty sure there's still a few games and some time before the 1st Test. Of your front five, I certainly don't think Gray and POC are by any means guaranteed to start, and we haven't even seen Jenkins play yet, so I've no idea how you've concluded that Vunipola is a likely Test starter. To me he looks a more likely impact sub, but let's just wait and see how the tour unfolds. You can't call the Test XV whilst there are players on tour who haven't even started a match!

People are getting a bit silly calling the Test XV already - it's game 2 for heavens' sake!!

+1

Completely agree however Gatland has less maneuvering space in terms of time to work out the Test team and then get them some time on the pitch together.

by Pat_Mustard Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:07 pm

I like this side. That centre pairing really excites me and I don't know why. 2 proven clinical finishers on the wing and they would probably be my test pick at this stage. Hope Warburton has a good game too and shows why he's captain.

P.S. people have been picking their Test XVs for years now!

by maestegmafia Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:08 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:I think the key to this game is basics, if we're talking the set peice keep things simple and effective, the half backs will thrive on simplicity alone, the centre pairing need to not try the high risk BOD type stuff, the back 3 need to be defenceively sound, the locks need to do their primary jobs and not focus on the galavanting runs, and most importantly the back row, keep solid defencively, aid the tight 5 in the narrow, and be competitive but not too agressive at the breakdown.

I think weak spots are the front row (no scrummaging ability individually and together ) not to mention the lack of grunt in the engine room, or size to help in the back row)

The lineout should be solid enough, if kept simple.

We have some decent breakdown operators in Warbs, Lydiate, Jenkins and Parling, but they need to be smart (Stevens don't try to compete mate, just stay out of the way)

our defencive system although should be getting stronger will be disjointed, so many new starters will struggle early on.

I think the key to this game is going to be player mindset, if they come out looking to impress individually, try to put their hands up for selection then we will be beat, but if we keep things simple, the units do their primary jobs and focus on the execution as opposed to creation we have enough to down this reds team.

Gethin Jenkins turned our highly rated second choice Tighthead inside out in the six nations. I wouldn't say Jenkins is a poor scrummager, he's just rated highly for everything else he does on top.

Very harsh to call him a poor scrummager.

Many also rate Stevens scrummaging and Youngs. Really not sure where you got your opinion from....?

by HammerofThunor Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:38 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:I think the key to this game is basics, if we're talking the set peice keep things simple and effective, the half backs will thrive on simplicity alone, the centre pairing need to not try the high risk BOD type stuff, the back 3 need to be defenceively sound, the locks need to do their primary jobs and not focus on the galavanting runs, and most importantly the back row, keep solid defencively, aid the tight 5 in the narrow, and be competitive but not too agressive at the breakdown.

I think weak spots are the front row (no scrummaging ability individually and together ) not to mention the lack of grunt in the engine room, or size to help in the back row)

The lineout should be solid enough, if kept simple.

We have some decent breakdown operators in Warbs, Lydiate, Jenkins and Parling, but they need to be smart (Stevens don't try to compete mate, just stay out of the way)

our defencive system although should be getting stronger will be disjointed, so many new starters will struggle early on.

I think the key to this game is going to be player mindset, if they come out looking to impress individually, try to put their hands up for selection then we will be beat, but if we keep things simple, the units do their primary jobs and focus on the execution as opposed to creation we have enough to down this reds team.

Gethin Jenkins turned our highly rated second choice Tighthead inside out in the six nations. I wouldn't say Jenkins is a poor scrummager, he's just rated highly for everything else he does on top.

Very harsh to call him a poor scrummager.

Many also rate Stevens scrummaging and Youngs. Really not sure where you got your opinion from....?

No he didn't. The penalties were on the English loosehead side. I don't even remember Cole being penalised at all. I have tried to blank most of that game from my memory though so might be mistaken. But Jenkins isn't that bad (certainly better than sometimes made out). But Stevens is Poopie always has been (at scrummaging). No idea about Youngs. Some think his size is a problem but difficult to tell because Tigers have very scrummaging props and locks.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:15 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:I think the key to this game is basics, if we're talking the set peice keep things simple and effective, the half backs will thrive on simplicity alone, the centre pairing need to not try the high risk BOD type stuff, the back 3 need to be defenceively sound, the locks need to do their primary jobs and not focus on the galavanting runs, and most importantly the back row, keep solid defencively, aid the tight 5 in the narrow, and be competitive but not too agressive at the breakdown.

I think weak spots are the front row (no scrummaging ability individually and together ) not to mention the lack of grunt in the engine room, or size to help in the back row)

The lineout should be solid enough, if kept simple.

We have some decent breakdown operators in Warbs, Lydiate, Jenkins and Parling, but they need to be smart (Stevens don't try to compete mate, just stay out of the way)

our defencive system although should be getting stronger will be disjointed, so many new starters will struggle early on.

I think the key to this game is going to be player mindset, if they come out looking to impress individually, try to put their hands up for selection then we will be beat, but if we keep things simple, the units do their primary jobs and focus on the execution as opposed to creation we have enough to down this reds team.

Gethin Jenkins turned our highly rated second choice Tighthead inside out in the six nations. I wouldn't say Jenkins is a poor scrummager, he's just rated highly for everything else he does on top.

Very harsh to call him a poor scrummager.

Many also rate Stevens scrummaging and Youngs. Really not sure where you got your opinion from....?

As stated above, most of that scrummaging domination was Jones on Marler and Vunipola and, and I know I am bringing back things of the past and will be accused of sour grapes, but the refereeing of those scrummages (by Walsh who gave the Lions exactly the same false advantages last Saturday despite James edging Jones , whom I do rate highly, to my eyes) was awful and every time the camera showed an angle of Jones he was binding on the Loosehead's elbow. Luckily that means we should be a\ble to get him to do the same trick in whichever test Walsh referees

by Guest Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:18 pm

None then CJ.

The Baabaa's game was his test.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:23 pm

Risca Rev wrote:None then CJ.

The Baabaa's game was his test.

Ah, shame. Who are the test refs?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:27 pm

Was anyone else seriously impressed with Parling when he came on on Saturday? I thought he had a great little cameo and if he can replicate that from the start then he has a good shot of the test 23.

by Guest Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:32 pm

The first Test in Brisbane on June 22 will be refereed by New Zealand’s Chris Pollock, with South Africa’s Craig Joubert and France’s Romain Poite taking charge of the second and third Tests respectively.

Former Saracens fly-half Glen Jackson will referee the games against the Western Force on June 5, and Melbourne Rebels on June 25. Jaco Peyper of South Africa and Jérôme Garcès of France will also feature in the middle during the tour.

by Guest Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:34 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Was anyone else seriously impressed with Parling when he came on on Saturday? I thought he had a great little cameo and if he can replicate that from the start then he has a good shot of the test 23.

Yes he did very well. Hard to say if he shone when the Force fell apart or not. Hopefully he has a good game from the off on Sat, as I would have him on the Test bench based on the two games.

by The Saint Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:36 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Was anyone else seriously impressed with Parling when he came on on Saturday? I thought he had a great little cameo and if he can replicate that from the start then he has a good shot of the test 23.

Yep, but he hasn't had enough game time yet. It will be him and AWJ fighting for the bench spot behind Gray and O'Connell I reckon.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:37 pm

Risca Rev wrote:The first Test in Brisbane on June 22 will be refereed by New Zealand’s Chris Pollock, with South Africa’s Craig Joubert and France’s Romain Poite taking charge of the second and third Tests respectively.

Former Saracens fly-half Glen Jackson will referee the games against the Western Force on June 5, and Melbourne Rebels on June 25. Jaco Peyper of South Africa and Jérôme Garcès of France will also feature in the middle during the tour.

Little bit worried about Jouberts preference tendancies, he generally singles out a player he dislikes early and then just pings him at every chance (unless your a kiwi) and Poite is such a picky bugger come scrum time not only could I see us not getting the dominance we will be looking for but I could see Aus dominating our scrum through Poites interpretation alone.

by **RDW** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:43 pm

Joubert - one of the worst referees in human existence.

On the plus side if he thinks one team is superior in the scrum he will penalise the crap out of the other team all day, irrespective of what is actually happening!

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Joubert - one of the worst referees in human existence.

On the plus side if he thinks one team is superior in the scrum he will penalise the crap out of the other team all day, irrespective of what is actually happening!

Unless a lion says the wrong word, or he fancies a SH win

by GunsGerms Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:44 pm

Joubert also favours SH teams.

by **RDW** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:46 pm

How come there are no UK / Ireland refs this time in the warm up games? Did they not used to have a mix of host and UK / Ireland refs to ensure the Lions didn't get a raw deal every game?

by The Saint Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:48 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Joubert - one of the worst referees in human existence.

On the plus side if he thinks one team is superior in the scrum he will penalise the crap out of the other team all day, irrespective of what is actually happening!

Unless a lion says the wrong word, or he fancies a SH win

Glad I'm not the only one who has issue with Joubert's refereeing. If it's two teams from the same hemisphere then I don't tend to notice him as much as say, a game with one team from each hemisphere.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:51 pm

True, and Joubert has certainly sided heavily with Adam Jones at least once this year.......

With Joubert reffing the Lions will need to practice the hit at the scrum. Practice cheating, going early and fading on the hit. He's easily fooled, and loves to blow his whistle for free kicks, so Phillips needs to make sure he's got his eye on Genia, and doesn't afford him the opportunity of galloping away after a quick tap, and vice versa makes the most of any opportunities.

I'm actually quite pleased that Poite is in charge of the 3rd Test. If the Lions get the scrum right, he'll single handedly destroy Australia.

by **Biltong** Thu 06 Jun 2013, 1:52 pm

Yeah, Joubert is the antithesis of NH rugby. Whistle

by funnyExiledScot Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:00 pm

What's the example game of Joubert being favourable to SH sides?

My criticism stems from his reffing of the scrum in the 6 Nations.

by jimmyinthewell68 Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:07 pm

i wouldn't have mind Steve Walsh even tho hes Australian if we used the Welsh front row we would win all the scrum decisions Whistle

by RubyGuby Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:09 pm

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:i wouldn't have mind Steve Walsh even tho hes Australian if we used the Welsh front row we would win all the scrum decisions

Go Steve Welsh!

by GunsGerms Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:12 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:What's the example game of Joubert being favourable to SH sides?

My criticism stems from his reffing of the scrum in the 6 Nations.

The WC final for one.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:22 pm

Pat_Mustard wrote:I like this side. That centre pairing really excites me and I don't know why.

I do. It's because they're both cracking players who've never played together before. The potential is huge. Smile

by Pat_Mustard Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:30 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Pat_Mustard wrote:I like this side. That centre pairing really excites me and I don't know why.

I do. It's because they're both cracking players who've never played together before. The potential is huge.

That might have something to do with it! I haven't seen much of Davies at 12 before, hope he's as good as I think he might be! Also I like Tuilagi at 13 but I think he and Roberts are too similar and Davies/Tuilagi might complement each other more.

by Pat_Mustard Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:38 pm

Also we know how good the Roberts-O'Driscoll combination can be and I'm hopeful this one could be just as good. The centres are one of the toughest areas to call for the Tests IMO.

Also off-topic but it reminds me how much I'm looking forward to the Scott-Dunbar combination for Scotland on Saturday! Very Happy

by Bathman_in_London Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:40 pm

Now this should in many ways be the first real test of the tour, thats a pretty decent Queensland team. I actually think the Lions team looks a little weaker than it did against the Force, but I am looking forward to seeing that backrow have a go together, Warburton could do with a big game, we want him to be in the test team on merit.

Elsewhere that midfield looks exciting and if they combine well together there will be a really tough choice for the test spots. I hope Parling takes the chance too, he has looked good in his cameos so far.

All in all, pretty exciting!

by GunsGerms Thu 06 Jun 2013, 2:47 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:Now this should in many ways be the first real test of the tour, thats a pretty decent Queensland team. I actually think the Lions team looks a little weaker than it did against the Force,

Agree, looks like the weakest starting team so far IMO.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:04 pm

I really rate Geoff Parling. I'd love to see him force his way into the reckoning.

by hugehandoff Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:05 pm

Whilst this is an slightly underwhleming selection it does give everyone a start which is great and fair. It will be interesting to see how they fair. The test side must have a run out prior to the test series commencing and logically that should be against the Tahs so the selection for next Wed should be interesting.

As for this game if the boys hang in there then the bench could have a real impact and if in trouble expect to see some of them come on quite early!

LIONS BENCH: Hibbard Mako AJones POC Tipuric Murray Sexton North

There will be better scrummaging and go forward and potency at 10.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:06 pm

Pat_Mustard wrote:Also we know how good the Roberts-O'Driscoll combination can be and I'm hopeful this one could be just as good. The centres are one of the toughest areas to call for the Tests IMO.

Also off-topic but it reminds me how much I'm looking forward to the Scott-Dunbar combination for Scotland on Saturday!

Also totally off topic, but the idiots at BT have contrived to deprive me of Sky Sports this weekend, so I'm going to need to find a pub in Edinburgh showing both games! Disaster!

by Pat_Mustard Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:14 pm

You mean you'll have no choice but to be in the pub from 10:30 am! What an ordeal that will be!

by funnyExiledScot Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:18 pm

There's nothing quite like standing outside a pub waiting for it to open, and the smell of an empty pub on a Saturday morning after the Friday night before. Beats the smell of napalm in the morning......

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 06 Jun 2013, 3:28 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:There's nothing quite like standing outside a pub with the shakes waiting for it to open

Ah, memories...

by bedfordwelsh Thu 06 Jun 2013, 8:39 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:There's nothing quite like standing outside a pub with the shakes waiting for it to open

Ah, memories...

Secret knocks and masonic hand shakes to get into a pub before the rush in Cardiff on match days ' those were the days' as the song goes

by stevetynant Thu 06 Jun 2013, 10:14 pm

The advantage the lions have in every game as far as I am concerned is the bench is always loaded with impact players all over the park.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 07 Jun 2013, 9:52 am

Quade Cooper has been given the captaincy of Queensland.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cooper-lead-reds-last-wallabies-audition-051752877.html?.tsrc=yahoo

by sensisball Fri 07 Jun 2013, 10:11 am

Should be a much closer contest for the Lions. Unlikely to get scrum dominance with fatty Stevens starting. It will be interesting to see how Farrell copes with static scrum ball, will he lie flat or drop deep and look to kick for his wingers to chase? Hopefully the former, and i hope he has a good game. He certainly has a strong midfield pairing to help him out. Really curious to see how JD goes at 12. Could be the surprise package playing out of position.

by wales606 Fri 07 Jun 2013, 10:13 am

sensisball wrote:Should be a much closer contest for the Lions. Unlikely to get scrum dominance with fatty Stevens starting. It will be interesting to see how Farrell copes with static scrum ball, will he lie flat or drop deep and look to kick for his wingers to chase? Hopefully the former, and i hope he has a good game. He certainly has a strong midfield pairing to help him out. Really curious to see how JD goes at 12. Could be the surprise package playing out of position.

JD plays 12 for the Scarlets, or switches with Scott Williams if named at 13

by **Pal Joey** Fri 07 Jun 2013, 10:22 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Quade Cooper has been given the captaincy of Queensland.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cooper-lead-reds-last-wallabies-audition-051752877.html?.tsrc=yahoo

I wish him well. Hopefully no charge-down tries this weekend.

Good chat on last night's Rugby HQ with Horwill on for the full hour. Very candid discussions (just watching the replay now)

The photo of Sheehan getting bit by the Lion... Laugh

Healy bites Sheehan

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