Liverpool Thread: Road to thinking we might get top 4, only to feel stupid at the end of the season

by **Crimey** Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:52 am

First topic message reminder :

Transfer ins:
Kolo Toure (free transfer from Manchester City)

Transfers out:
Danny Wilson (free to Hearts)
Jamie Carragher (free to Sky)
Peter Gulacsi (free to Salzburg)

by Fernando Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:12 pm

Coutinho off injured looks Shoulder Aspas on.

by Guest Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:21 pm

by Guest Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:17 pm

Great game, much improved on what we've seen this season. It really was the jonjo shelvey show, incredible mixed game for him. Great determination & character shown by the lad. Liverpool faded badly second half, looked tired and losing Coutinho and Sturridge not being fully fit was evident. Wisdom looks awful to me, soon as Johnson is back the better. Swansea need to find a way of getting Michu & Bony working together, at the moment it looks awful. Tough season ahead for the Swans with Europe included.

Good game and Liverpool still top.

by Kay Fabe Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:22 pm

At 2-1 you felt Liverpool would kick themselves if they didn't win this match but by the end it was a good point, teams that are hoping to achieve this season will need to get points at places like that, don't think Swansea will drop much at home, good side but its a good point from the Reds

by **Crimey** Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:45 pm

Will be happier in the long run having picked up a fairly good point away from home, but was still slightly disappointed with the performance.

Felt there is a pattern emerging at Liverpool of being too content with one goal leads, whether it be 1-0 or 2-1, the team just seems to sit back and happily soak up pressure without really making an effort to push on and put the game out of sight, eventually resorting to long balls up to Sturridge who can do very little with them. Now over the first three games this didn't come back to bite the side despite a last minute penalty in the first game and Manchester United and Aston Villa really pushing. Felt this time it did, while Swansea ended the half well felt Liverpool had the quality and pace to put the game away had they attacked Swansea, instead sat too deep, invited pressure and didn't have the luck to get us through the 45 minutes. Even at 2-2 I was disappointed that Liverpool didn't play more positively and allowed Swansea to push hard for an equaliser. Very disappointed with the changes made by Rodgers as well, Aspas for Coutinho was an injury enforced one and was fair enough. The Toure for Wisdom one was very odd, Swansea were doing basically no attacking down the left and Toure isn't a right back anyway, maybe he wants him back to full fitness, but the same could be said of Kelly a more natural right back who I felt should have been brought on if he wanted to take Wisdom off. Then Moses being taken off for Sterling disappointed me as well, perhaps I'm being too gung-ho but I thought Moses, while fading, was a player who could change the game with his pace and power, while Lucas and Henderson were both on a booking and could have been taken off in favour of going for more pace in attack, at least then it would have been easier to attack on the break.

S Mignolet: 7

Really growing on me as a keeper, a really solid performance today showing a lot more confidence to come out and punch balls. Nearly had one bad error, when saving a shot, forcing Skrtel into a last-ditch tackle, thought it was a save that needed to be made.

A Wisdom: 6

Shaky, wasn't really put under a lot of pressure throughout the game but didn't seem comfortable with or without the ball. Not a right back for me, tucks in far too narrowly leaving a lot of space on the wing and doesn't offer anywhere near enough on the flanks. Missing Johnson, Kelly or even Flanagan better as full backs.

M Skrtel: 7

I thought with Sakho being so erratic and being so out of favour Skrtel put in another really good performance at centre back. One fantastic last ditch effort and always calm and collected at the back. Also think he's good at distributing it as well, something that couldn't have been said 2 years ago.

M Sakho: 5

Not a debut to remember at all, won't look too much into it for the long-term but he looked very nervous. I think there was at least three times he dived into tackles, didn't get the ball and gave away chances. Too often he'd hold onto the ball too long and get put under pressure, out of position a lot. Perhaps was trying too hard, needs to keep it more simple in the future.

J Enrique: 6

A lot of good runs and good play without it really being used to great effect, works better with Coutinho in front of him allowing him the wing to himself, Moses doesn't give him that freedom to attack.

Lucas: 6

Decent game from Lucas, felt that he could have done more in the middle of the park where a few times players had a long time on the ball, strolling towards the goal. Think Lucas while on a booking is like having half of him on the pitch because he can't get stuck in.

S Gerrard: 6

A lot of good ideas, decent execution, but in the end came too nothing. Some nice set piece delivery, one fantastic first-time through ball to Sturridge but still think Gerrard isn't as good as last season, needs to grow into the season.

J Henderson: 6

Slowly becoming one of my favourite players, he's the new Dirk Kuyt in my opinion, but today wasn't a great day. Never really looked threatening as he worked from a wider position, didn't have much luck, especially with Wisdom behind him offering not a lot of help going forward.

Coutinho: 5

Disappointing from Coutinho, really hasn't looked as exciting as at the tail-end of the last season, hope the hype hasn't gone to his head. Said it before that he doesn't work best in the number 10 role as he doesn't have the space he needs, better drifting in. Still has a lot of connection with Sturridge though which is great to see.

V Moses: 7

Really impressed with Moses, especially in the first half, like how direct he is, strong, powerful, pacey he looked like something Liverpool needed in midfield, very well taken goal on his debut, faded in the second half, likely due to a lack of first team football, but very promising.

D Sturridge: 7

Another well taken goal and link up play, one poor piece of selfishness where he could have pulled it back or held the ball up or won the corner instead of blasting it at goal from an improbable angle shows that the main vice of his game hasn't gone and perhaps more confidence is leading to worse selfishness.

Subs:

I Aspas: 3

Anonymous, brought on for the injured Coutinho, a great chance to show what he can do. Apparently the answer is nothing. Don't want to write him off, but he reminds me more of Borini every time he plays. Needs a goal I fear to boost his confidence and we might see better things. Today he was awful.

K Toure: 6

Okay short appearance, shouldn't have to play at right back, looked fit and healthy which is the main thing.

R Sterling: 5

Not Sterling's fault, weird that he was brought in even when Liverpool started to sit back more and defend, didn't get a chance to stretch his legs and perhaps needs to have a starting appearance to get himself up to scratch. Hard to make an impact from the off with 15 minutes to go.

by Guest Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:58 pm

Didn't watch it but from what I've read Shelvey had an eventful game to say the least.

Out of interest Crimey how would you grade Jonjo. An impossible task I'd imagine!

by **Crimey** Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:05 pm

I think the easiest way would be 5 his actual football. 9 for his attitude though.

He did score and get an assist, but was at fault for both Liverpool goals, so I don't think you can really give him a higher rating than 5. However his attitude was fantastic, didn't shy away even after the second mistake, still kept getting on the ball, doing the right things and eventually it paid off. Experiences like those can make or break a player, good to see Shelvey not broken by it.

by Guest Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:10 pm

Yeah I've always felt that he's got a fantastic attitude.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:31 am

Nice to see the wheels come of the Liverpool hype-train a little last night.

Think the thread title will still be a sensible prophecy come May, unless the absence of Euro distractions really assists.

by **Kenny** Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:41 am

I don't think any real Liverpool fan is getting carried away with the start to the season , we are just enjoying it .

I would of taken a draw lastnight seeing as we haven't won there in the league before

by TopHat24/7 Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:51 am

Well you've got a lot more to enjoy than us United fans so fair play to you!!

by TheCultOfPersonality Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:53 am

I thought Wisdom had a shocker last night, made a few bad tackles and also did not look comfortable on the ball. I think Toure should start at RB for now until Glen returns.

Hmm Aspas is really struggling so far. I thought it was the wrong the decision to bring him on, we needed someone like Alberto to fill the void of Coutinho as he's more comfortable on the ball.

At least Suarez has only one more game to wait!

by **Crimey** Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:18 am

Kelly is fit though, start Kelly at right back, he should be the second choice right back rather than shunting Toure out there who very rarely plays there and for me will stunt our attack, I don't want Wisdom starting there any more though, he's not good enough as a right back, if he plays it has to be at centre back.

Hopefully when Suarez and Johnson come back our first choice can be:

Mignolet

Johnson
Sakho/Skrtel
Agger
Enrique

Lucas
Gerrard

Henderson
Suarez
Coutinho

Sturridge

Then we can have players like Alberto, Sterling, Moses, Aspas to choose from to impact the game from the bench.

by Guest Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:22 am

Think we dodged a bullet last night. Horrible cliche but a real game of two halves for us. Was glad that we got a second but dreadfully disappointed that we sat back and decided to defend a one goal lead for 45 minutes. It was always going to end badly with that attitude but could have been worse.

Didn't listen to post match interviews but can't think Rodgers will be happy with a point. I'm sure he'll praise the players' grit but behind closed doors I think a few rollockings need to be delivered.

Wisdom looks a bit of a liability at the minute and he's going to come acropper against the better teams, Aspas needs to toughen up a hell of a lot (physically and mentally) Sturridge needs to be a little (OK a LOT) less selfish.

I'm hoping that Suarez has a genuine desire to play for the team when he returns because it's games like last night's where a little bit of magic from him can be the real difference maker.

Still, top of the league with S'ton at home up next.

by **Crimey** Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:47 am

Coutinho out until late October.

Not too bad then, especially with Suarez coming back after the Southampton game.

by **Kenny** Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:07 am

I'm expecting different tactics and formation versus Southampton now Coutinho is out .

Think we may play two holding midfielders to try and combat how Lambert drops off and to the wings , So Allen may get a look in .

What do you think ? Will we stick to the 4 , 3 , 3 or go more defensive and play on the counter attack ?

by Guest Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:14 am

Kenny wrote:I'm expecting different tactics and formation versus Southampton now Coutinho is out .

Think we may play two holding midfielders to try and combat how Lambert drops off and to the wings , So Allen may get a look in .

What do you think ? Will we stick to the 4 , 3 , 3 or go more defensive and play on the counter attack ?

Sadly I think we'll be more defensive minded without Coutinho's creativity and lack of real scoring threat outside of Sturridge.

by **Kenny** Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:22 am

What about a line up of

4 , 2 , 3 , 1 with

Lucas and Allen as the 2

Moses Gerrard and Henderson as the 3 with Sturridge up front ?

that would allow both Gerrard and Henderson to go forward more while still having the back up of two holding midfielders for this game . Of course it will change again after saturday when Suarez is available

by Guest Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:49 am

Still not convinced with Allen and certainly not as a defensive midfielder. Doesn't seem willing or able to tackle and with Lucas appearing to fall back into the bad habit of giving away stupid free kicks in dangerous areas, I'd rather have Gerrard and Lucas and limit the number of chances we give the opposition to score.

Got to hope Sturridge gets his act together and links up with the likes of Moses a little better instead of doing it all himself.

by **Crimey** Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:35 am

I'd have thought either Aspas or possibly Sterling will replace Coutinho, not quite like for like, but would make the most sense.

Hoping for:

Mignolet

Kelly
Sakho/Skrtel
Agger
Enrique

Gerrard
Lucas

Sterling
Henderson
Moses

Sturridge

It will be a little less fluid than with Henderson and Coutinho on the flanks, but has more pace and penetration than usual.

by Guest Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:53 am

Hoping to see Wisdom given a bit of a rest as I don't think he's been quite up to the task of late (and that's being generous). One has to wonder how badly both Kelly and Flanagan have faded for Andre to be given the nod above those two

by **Crimey** Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:37 pm

I think they're very cautious about Kelly considering the severity of the injury that put him out, still think it's better to get him playing football now, even if you're going to take him off after 50-60 minutes.

Flanagan also had a very serious injury, I feel for him as I was really impressed when he played having been thrown in at the deep end, think he definitely deserves to be ahead of Wisdom and Toure for the right back position. There's also McLaughlin who was in Rodger's first pre-season tour, looked really good and then has been forgotten about. Wisdom is not a right back at all, Kelly for me looks much more comfortable there and offers a much greater attacking threat as well.

Wish Wisdom had been able to go on loan, think if they realised how small Toure's injury was he would have gone. Small chance of him going out on loan to a Championship club I suppose.

by **Kenny** Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:57 am

Leicester and Blackpool both want Wisdom on loan from what i have heard

by **Crimey** Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:00 pm

I think he should go, it'd be good for him to start some games at centre back, get some form going because I think the longer he sticks around at Liverpool playing at right back the more the fans will get on his back and he'll struggle to recover.

by **Kenny** Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:05 pm

Yes i agree hopefully one of them can get a loan sorted , you can almost see the confidence draining out of him after every heavy touch

by Guest Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:28 pm

Kenny wrote:Yes i agree hopefully one of them can get a loan sorted , you can almost see the confidence draining out of him after every heavy touch

Not to mention the crowd. The tightness of our defence has been instrumental in our good start to the season and, whilst I'm sure he's a smashing lad, I do see Wisdom as a weak link in the chain. If Rodgers is to persist with him he needs more help

by **Kenny** Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:14 am

Today's Squad

Mignolet, Toure, Skrtel, Agger, Sakho, Gerrard, Lucas, Henderson, Aspas, Moses, Sturridge. Subs: Brad Jones, Jose Enrique, Alberto, Sterling, Ibe, Kelly, Wisdom.

so all the back four centrehalves really , and the bench doesn't look very strong

by Champagne_Socialist Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:53 am

liverpool lost

by **Crimey** Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Inconsistency strikes again.

Didn't watch the game but not a fan that Rodgers started four centre backs as the defence, and don't think Aspas' form warranted a start.

by Guest Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:41 pm

I was saying the same thing earlier Crimey. Strange selection indeed.

Same old, same old regarding the result. We move on.

by **Crimey** Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:42 pm

He's also continuing the odd decision of playing somebody he previously looked ready to dispose in Skrtel.

by **Kenny** Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:47 pm

next league game now becomes important to see how we bounce back , will also be interesting to see how strong a team we put out v Utd in the Carling Cup

by Guest Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:49 pm

Hopefully we go all out to win that cup tie Kenny and I can't see why not.

by **Kenny** Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:03 pm

FreekShow wrote:Hopefully we go all out to win that cup tie Kenny and I can't see why not.

I agree , i think we should play our strongest side Suarez i would think will play not sure if Moses is allowed ? pick Kelly and Enrique and fullbacks no more 4 cb's and go for the win

by LivinginItaly Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:45 am

So what do you make of our season so far?

Some people, especially in the media, are already talking about a top four finish this season. Personally I think it is too early to be thinking about that. What I am looking for this season is an improvement on last season. So far I would say we have made some improvement, although how much is difficult to say at this point of the season. One thing is for sure I think everybody connected with the club would have taken 13 points from the first 6 games.

What are you expectations given our pretty good start to the season?

by Guest Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:01 am

Pror to the Southampton shocker I'd have said it was an improvement but that game highlighted the major flaws in the team and some of the things fans have been complaining about for a few years now.

The level of complacency when up against supposed "lesser" teams always seems to have us squandering leads or losing goals in the dying minutes. There seemed to be a lack of creativity in midfield but even without the likes of Suarez and Coutinho, no-one seemed willing to step up to the plate and try to make something happen.

Don't get me wrong, on the whole, I'm pleased with the start that's being made and whilst it's the same stuff trotted out every season, I'd still like to see us get the results against the "big four" clubs whilst killing off the "smaller" teams much sooner and perhaps with less panic setting in with ten minutes to go.

Even though we were leading yesterday and didn't really look like losing or even conceding a second, there was still a part of me that wondered if we were going to throw it all away at the death. I'd love those niggling doubts to dispel and for the opposition to feel that they're going to struggle to get goals at ANY stage.

We also need the likes of Alberto and Aspas to make their presence felt as I fear that if we lose a couple of influential players, at this moment in time, they aren't quite good enough to bridge the gap.

However, all in all, I'm please and whilst the loss at S'ton was bad, everyone else has had shock losses too. We still have enough (on paper) winnable games coming up to still be in touching distance of top four at Xmas and, if we can invest in January, there's every possibility that we may finally get something out of the season.

Top four is vital to keep Suarez as losing him could result in the Club taking several steps backwards. I'm glad he seems to be unholding his end of the deal though and really playing for the team as much as himself.

by **Kenny** Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:41 am

I have been impressed with some of the things we have done but also disappointed with others .

We still lack depth but saying that i do think the signings have improved the squad just not enough imo .

I will be more then happy to be in the top 4 - 6 come January transfer window , hopefully not 15 or more points off the top spot . As i do think we will bring in a couple of creative players then .

by nasisillmatic Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:00 pm

I can't really complain with the start we've had. We haven't played that well but have still won games which is a good sign.

My main concern is the middle of the pitch. Gerrard/Lucas partnership doesn't work for me. We need a proper holding midfielder as Lucas just isn't good enough.

by Guest Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:56 am

[quote="nasisillmatic"]I can't really complain with the start we've had. We haven't played that well but have still won games which is a good sign.

My main concern is the middle of the pitch. Gerrard/Lucas partnership doesn't work for me. We need a proper holding midfielder as Lucas just isn't good enough.[/quote]
He was prior to his injury, he just doesn't appeared to have regained that form just yet. He allowed Gerrard the time and space to get further forward but Stevie is having to play a more defensive role A/ To cover Lucas and B/ because he's lacking a bit of pace these days.

Still, when you can hit a pass like he did for Sturridge on Sunday...who needs to be lightning fast eh?

by nasisillmatic Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:58 am

While yes Lucas showed some good form before his injury, I've always been convinced that it was always just a purple pacth for him and he wouldn't be able to maintain it. We cannot keep playing him because he was decent 2 years ago.

The partnership just doesn't work for me. Gerrard isn't going to be dropped, so we need someone else in place of Lucas.

by **Kenny** Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:52 am

Who do we think comes in for the suspended Lucas against Palace on saturday ?

Don't think Allen is fit ?

by **Kenny** Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:46 pm

Well i never saw playing Sterling as right wing back coming Shocked

, but he didn't play badly .

We really need to kill games off and play for 90 minutes , i know it's early in the season but given how even things look then goal difference could end up deciding league places

by Hulking_up Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:49 pm

If the Arsenal game ends in a draw (4 mins left) then it would be a good weekend for us.

by **Kenny** Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:53 pm

Yes good weekend for us

by **Kenny** Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:14 pm

Aspas out for up to 6 weeks after picking up injury in training

by Guest Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:19 pm

That's good news.

Fully expect you to bang at least 3 past us tomorrow. Attack our full backs, keep Remy quiet (if he's recovered from his car crash) & you've almost certainly won.

by **Kenny** Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:56 am

John wrote:That's good news.

Fully expect you to bang at least 3 past us tomorrow. Attack our full backs, keep Remy quiet (if he's recovered from his car crash) & you've almost certainly won.

Pardew bigging up revenge for last seasons game in the papers . Don't think it will be that big a scoreline today though .

I hope we don't change the side to much given we have 4 players back from injury and suspension , i would just bring Johnson and Lucas back in for Sakho and Sterling .

so a side of

Mignolet
Johnson Toure Skrtel Enrique
Henderson Lucas Gerrard Moses
Suarez Sturridge

but not necessarily playing 4 4 2 probably Moses just behind front two

by lfc91 Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:44 am

Been saying all season that Rodgers needs sacked and today has just further proved that. Never has a plan B when plan A isnt working, manages a draw against a 10 man newcastle who were out playing us up until they lost a man! The wheels will come of shortly and we will fall away to 7th/8th place come may. Why wait until then to sack him, sooner the better in my view.

by **hampo17** Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:50 am

Jesus Christ...sack Rodgers? What for exactly? We sit top of the league, could very well of won that game had we scored one of the guilt edged chances we missed, Sturridge missed two chances which he really should have scored at 2-2. What happened to getting behind the manager?

If this was Kenny people would be backing him and saying he'll either turn it round or keep it going, try getting behind the manager instead of looking for reasons to sack him. Well worth remembering that we are not a team in the Champions League, and if we did get rid of Rodgers we would not be able to attract a top European manager and would probably replace him with somebody like Paul Ince.

by lfc91 Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:01 am

Could have, should have etc etc, quite frankly sick off hearing that to be honest! Was the same with KK we should have won when we lost etc, and now rodgers follows the same suit in post match interviews. Yes were top which is fantastic but we have been very VERY lucky thus far and that luck wont continue. Villa match, stoke match are 2 off the top of my head where we were lucky to escape with the points, beaten easily at home to southampton and now this poor performance against 10 men?

I fully understand that people think you have to be able to win when your playing bad which we have at times this season but as i say that luck wont continue. Couple that with are apparent inability to play for a full 90 minutes does not bode well.

And where to begin with his transfers?! Think allen sums it up perfectly, not only did his major buy flop, but BR shows a complete refusal to accept his mistake in sgning him and keeps playing him! Was actually happy to see him sidelined for a while such were his performances! Like i said the wheels are set to come off soon and ab

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