Lions V NSW Waratahs

by hugehandoff Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously a very important game in the overall context of the tour. Gats should use it primarily as a tough run out for his test team 1 week before the test series begins. But will he still want to give some players a chance to put up their hands? Are there certain positions still up for grabs and if so will he try and use this game as a winner takes all shoot out. It is not ideal to still be asking players to play the Brumbies game and then appear in the 1st test, although not impossible.

For me it should be:

Adam Jones - nailed on
Hibbard - almost nailed on
Grant - experiment
POC - nailed on
AWJ - trial V Parling
Lydiate - needs to prove himself
Faletau - needs to prove himself
Warbs - needs to prove himself
Phillips - nailed on
Sexton - nailed on
North - nailed on
Roberts - nailed on
BOD - nailed on
Maitland - experiment
1/2P - nailed on

Bench:
Cole.....purely for some hard match practice as I see Jones as nailed on
T.Youngs....could challenge for a starting spot if he excels as a replacement - worth a look
Vuni.......originally viewed as an impact sub so interesting to see how he goes compared to the highly rated (by the Scots) Grant who is deserving of a start
Parling.....worth another look to see if he is worth a starting or bench spot
Croft....another who deserves a run out to see if he is worth a bench spot
Heaslip....given an opportunity could take the starters spot
Youngs....assuming he will be the test sub so let him see what impact he can make
Farrell....ditto as for Youngs

Is a 6/2 bench split a bit risky?

Who would you like to see run out on Sat and do you just want the test side to play or do you still see this as a chance to experiment and give players a fair crack?

Update with actual team.
Lions team: Leigh Halfpenny; Sean Maitland, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Simon Zebo; Jonathan Sexton, Mike Phillips; Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O'Connell , Tom Croft, Sam Warburton (capt), Jamie Heaslip
Replacements: Richard Hibbard, Alex Corbisiero, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Dan Lydiate, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Rob Kearney

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

Well done JD2! But no one even attempted a tackle to be fair.

17-45 before conversion.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

Try Davies

Man of the match performance by JD2

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

Well deserved by JD2

It's a lot easier than the ones he has created too!

by t1000advancedprototype Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

Poor games from Davies.

Get Henson on tour!

by **LondonTiger** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

Are we down to 14, as all subs had been used?

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:14 pm

Awh J-Ro...hope he's not got a serious injury there. Fingers Crossed

17-47 at 72:50.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:14 pm

I think Roberts is out of the first test by the look of it

by t1000advancedprototype Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:14 pm

Roberts doesn't look good. Damn.

He should have been subbed. What a time to get injured.

by **George Carlin** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:14 pm

wales606 wrote:Corbs gives away a penalty in the scrum - thats a black mark

Totally - we all know that a mistake means you cannot possibly feature in the test side.

Edit: Amazing stroll in try for JD2.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:15 pm

George Carlin wrote:
wales606 wrote:Corbs gives away a penalty in the scrum - thats a black mark
Totally - we all know that a mistake means you cannot possibly feature in the test side.

Edit: Amazing stroll in try for JD2.

Did I say that?

Calm down man

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:16 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
wales606 wrote:I really think BOD could have to settle for a bench play after today

I guess we will see how much Gatland has already made his mind up

Hardly. Roberts been rather quiet and ineffective in attack, Davies excellent in attack but caught out too often in defence. BOD will be in there, no doubt about it.

WHAT!!!! For goodness sake

That would have been Farrell's reaction as well. He came up in a blitz a few times, creating gaps and exposing people outside him- even the Sky commentators pointed it out. If you watched the first half it was clearly obvious. So his performance has been very good, but far from perfect. Davies/BOD looks likes a good combo.

Sorry mate not going to argue this but he has been classic text book defence and attack. Yes he has come out a few times fast but twice its been beneficial - he has had interception pass, and has made a thumping tackle. Its all a bit transparent from you BOD is a great player but you are seeing things that are not there

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:16 pm

I can't see J-Ro playing next week. Big bummmer for him. Hopefully he'll be grand for the second or third though.

by **George Carlin** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:17 pm

wales606 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
wales606 wrote:Corbs gives away a penalty in the scrum - thats a black mark
Totally - we all know that a mistake means you cannot possibly feature in the test side.

Edit: Amazing stroll in try for JD2.

Did I say that?

Calm down man

'Course not W606 - I'm just applying the same rules as those used for other players today.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:18 pm

Hibbard overthrows - black mark

Think that gives Youngs the shirt for now

by Hood83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:18 pm

Skelton will be a helluva player if he gets his fitness fixed

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:18 pm

Cari wrote:I can't see J-Ro playing next week. Big bummmer for him. Hopefully he'll be grand for the second or third though.

Cari
i don't think he would make the starting line up. Davies and Bod are the best combo.

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:19 pm

wales606 wrote:Hibbard overthrows - black mark

Think that gives Youngs the shirt for now

And he hasn't cut his fringe............ deffo out of the test

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:19 pm

Thanks Farrell...!

How can anyone rate this kid he is blwdi awful...?

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:19 pm

Dont quite know what Farrell was doing there

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:19 pm

Was JD2 named MOTM then?

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:20 pm

Warburton go that turnover

by Breadvan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:20 pm

I really hope OF makes u choke on some humble pie....

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:20 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
wales606 wrote:I really think BOD could have to settle for a bench play after today

I guess we will see how much Gatland has already made his mind up

Hardly. Roberts been rather quiet and ineffective in attack, Davies excellent in attack but caught out too often in defence. BOD will be in there, no doubt about it.

WHAT!!!! For goodness sake

That would have been Farrell's reaction as well. He came up in a blitz a few times, creating gaps and exposing people outside him- even the Sky commentators pointed it out. If you watched the first half it was clearly obvious. So his performance has been very good, but far from perfect. Davies/BOD looks likes a good combo.

Sorry mate not going to argue this but he has been classic text book defence and attack. Yes he has come out a few times fast but twice its been beneficial - he has had interception pass, and has made a thumping tackle. Its all a bit transparent from you BOD is a great player but you are seeing things that are not there

Listen, even Sky pointed it out at half time. Davies came out on occasion too fast. You have to pick when and where to come out from the line, and on three of four occasions Davies chose wrong. He exposed the back three on those occasions. In fairness in the second half he has done it less, probably after Farrell tore strips off a few players at half time. Indeed, I would expect that he won't make those mistakes in the next match now it has been clearly pointed out to him. What on earth is unreasonable with pointing out that while he has had a very good match, he has not been the absolutely amazing performance made out by the cyclops brigade. He surely has to start the first Test alongside who has been outstanding in each match he has played. I fail to see the unreasonableness in that statement.

by Seagultaf Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:20 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Cari wrote:I can't see J-Ro playing next week. Big bummmer for him. Hopefully he'll be grand for the second or third though.

Cari
i don't think he would make the starting line up. Davies and Bod are the best combo.

Roberts and Davies for me BOD good against poor opposition by way past his best now Tuilagi bench if fit.

by Hood83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:21 pm

B Youngs dithering more than Phillips FFS.

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:22 pm

Alywynjo you blydi legend!

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:22 pm

FT 17-47

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:23 pm

Neither Hibbard or Best really want to be in the squad for the first test at this rate. If Best plays well on Tuesday he might be able to sneak onto the bench. Youngs must be nailed on for the test spot now.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:23 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Cari wrote:I can't see J-Ro playing next week. Big bummmer for him. Hopefully he'll be grand for the second or third though.

Cari
i don't think he would make the starting line up. Davies and Bod are the best combo.

Roberts and Davies for me BOD good against poor opposition by way past his best now Tuilagi bench if fit.

mate,

i'd go with Davies and bod with Tuilagi or Roberts bench as an impact sub. We can carry a centre if we have Hogg in bench covering back three and ten.

by Breadvan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:23 pm

Nicknames Cari..... warning

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:24 pm

AWJ, T.Youngs, Warburton and JD2 have all just made the starting XV for me

by SecretFly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:25 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Cari wrote:I can't see J-Ro playing next week. Big bummmer for him. Hopefully he'll be grand for the second or third though.

Cari
i don't think he would make the starting line up. Davies and Bod are the best combo.

Roberts and Davies for me BOD good against poor opposition by way past his best now Tuilagi bench if fit.

What's the line? You can only play what's in front of you. Let's leave test ability for the tests.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:26 pm

Who was announced MOM...?

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:27 pm

Breadvan wrote:Nicknames Cari.....

Shurrup Vanny! Wink

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:27 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
wales606 wrote:I really think BOD could have to settle for a bench play after today

I guess we will see how much Gatland has already made his mind up

Hardly. Roberts been rather quiet and ineffective in attack, Davies excellent in attack but caught out too often in defence. BOD will be in there, no doubt about it.

WHAT!!!! For goodness sake

That would have been Farrell's reaction as well. He came up in a blitz a few times, creating gaps and exposing people outside him- even the Sky commentators pointed it out. If you watched the first half it was clearly obvious. So his performance has been very good, but far from perfect. Davies/BOD looks likes a good combo.

Sorry mate not going to argue this but he has been classic text book defence and attack. Yes he has come out a few times fast but twice its been beneficial - he has had interception pass, and has made a thumping tackle. Its all a bit transparent from you BOD is a great player but you are seeing things that are not there

Listen, even Sky pointed it out at half time. Davies came out on occasion too fast. You have to pick when and where to come out from the line, and on three of four occasions Davies chose wrong. He exposed the back three on those occasions. In fairness in the second half he has done it less, probably after Farrell tore strips off a few players at half time. Indeed, I would expect that he won't make those mistakes in the next match now it has been clearly pointed out to him. What on earth is unreasonable with pointing out that while he has had a very good match, he has not been the absolutely amazing performance made out by the cyclops brigade. He surely has to start the first Test alongside who has been outstanding in each match he has played. I fail to see the unreasonableness in that statement.

I hope you taped mate............ watch it again I fast forwarded through the first 30 mins, he did come out fast but twice it was beneficial and made the opponents think about playing flat and attempting the miss-pass, very clever by Foxy and nothing like you are suggesting . You are clutching at straws

by **George Carlin** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:28 pm

Only saw the second half - scrum seemed a bit skittish - moving around quite a lot although I never saw us lose one. They keep banging on about our line out on Sky. Was it really that bad?

Very good moments from AWJ, Davies and some barnstorming carries from Heaslip.

Barnes on Sky does my head in. Players he likes never play poorly or are quiet - they suddenly become a "secret weapon". He always seem to express amazement that good Aussie players play well. Mitchell has scored 30 tries for the Wallabies - perhaps not a gigantic leap to assume his play today was not a strange purple patch.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:28 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Ha ha ha ha...!

Trev

On one side he has been superb the other he does bugger all as a forward.

Great pace but doesn't do enough in the forwards.

Plus points for him tonight are definitely winning a penalty at a ruck and scoring a try. Bad points is that we need another man at the breakdown and croft is out wide too often.

We need a happy medium between croft and Lydiate at blindside and the answer is Warburton to be honest. With Tipuric at openside.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Croft proves his unique talent

Forgetting someone, Maes? I think Sean O'Brien is a much better option for a happy medium.

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:28 pm

I think the Tahs captain has a bigger chin than J-Ro...

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:32 pm

AWJ needed a big match today to get a place in the side in front of Gray. I'm not always the biggest fan but he was superb. He and POC were outstanding.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:33 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Cari wrote:Wow! Look at those tackle stats...POC and Bread of Seven top tacklers today.

Croft at blindside didn't even get into that tackle stats POC and Warbs 11 each, Croft less than 7......... Blindside has to be top of the tackle stats IMHO

As a former openside I would have been disappointed in my performance if I did not have the most tackles.

There is a reason Richie McCaw is known in NZ as "Captain Tackles". It is a bit old fashioned to assume a 6 makes all the tackles, it actually rarely works out that way in most games.

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:35 pm

Agree there mate

I thought POC was again superb and AWJ what a great character just gets on, does his job and lets his play to the talking and now has the jersey to lose........ brilliant

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:39 pm

I don't understand how sky thought Warbs played so well?

He was solid thats about it.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:40 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Agree there mate

I thought POC was again superb and AWJ what a great character just gets on, does his job and lets his play to the talking and now has the jersey to lose........ brilliant

FHF I think you are right there. Great performance, huge depth Parling is a great lineout player, Gray awesome too. Evans had a good game Tuesday but needs a massive one on Tuesday...

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:42 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Cari wrote:Wow! Look at those tackle stats...POC and Bread of Seven top tacklers today.

Croft at blindside didn't even get into that tackle stats POC and Warbs 11 each, Croft less than 7......... Blindside has to be top of the tackle stats IMHO

As a former openside I would have been disappointed in my performance if I did not have the most tackles.

There is a reason Richie McCaw is known in NZ as "Captain Tackles". It is a bit old fashioned to assume a 6 makes all the tackles, it actually rarely works out that way in most games.

The very nature of the modern game make the blindside role more dependant on tackling than ever. If you have a mobile 8 and a mobile 7 then you have to have a defensive 6.

Do you know how McCaw plays off Carter and the classic blindside play, if you look at the NZ play of five years ago McCaw used to spoil at the breakdown tackling sometimes 3-4 times in 60 seconds, he was not an attack minded openside he was a spoiler and frustrates the opoosition .

by lostinwales Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm

Doesnt matter who makes the tackles - just that they are made

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't understand how sky thought Warbs played so well?

He was solid thats about it.

I thought he was a massive part of the game. Tackles and turnovers were superb, great vision in support, power with the ball in hand.

He lead from the front. WE are very lucky to have so many good players. I thought Heaslip was immense today as well. Warbs and Heaslip are show ins, its just whether we go for Tips, Lydiate, or SOB to go with them.

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:46 pm

lostinwales wrote:Doesnt matter who makes the tackles - just that they are made

well done!! Shocked

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:48 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Cari wrote:Wow! Look at those tackle stats...POC and Bread of Seven top tacklers today.

Croft at blindside didn't even get into that tackle stats POC and Warbs 11 each, Croft less than 7......... Blindside has to be top of the tackle stats IMHO

As a former openside I would have been disappointed in my performance if I did not have the most tackles.

There is a reason Richie McCaw is known in NZ as "Captain Tackles". It is a bit old fashioned to assume a 6 makes all the tackles, it actually rarely works out that way in most games.

The very nature of the modern game make the blindside role more dependant on tackling than ever. If you have a mobile 8 and a mobile 7 then you have to have a defensive 6.

Do you know how McCaw plays off Carter and the classic blindside play, if you look at the NZ play of five years ago McCaw used to spoil at the breakdown tackling sometimes 3-4 times in 60 seconds, he was not a attack minded openside.

I don't agree with any of this at all to be honest. You assume every team picks a mobile 7/8 and "chopper" at 6. It entirely depends on the team and what works best for them. There are different flankers and 8s with different strengths for their team. A 6 does not always have to make the most tackles, his role may be different in whatever side he plays and that is okay if it works. Croft for example plays very well for the Tigers, his tackling isn't an issue. He performs well in the backrow/pack/15 he is selected in.

Nowadays for the All Blacks, Kieran Read would lead the tackle count in the back row often. Despite playing at 8. It really does not have to be the 6, it is outdated to assume such a thing as it rarely actually happens nowadays. A quick look at the stats (yes they are not always accurate, but for a quick number you can get an idea) shows this.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:48 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't understand how sky thought Warbs played so well?

He was solid thats about it.

He worked hard, made alot of tackles but the backrow combo did not do that well at the breakdown. Croft was excellent in the loose, carried very well. Warburton will not oust Tipuric. Do you want a ball carrier like SOB or Croft in there, or someone competing alongside Tipuric at the breakdown? Also, who will start at 8. A good case can be made for both. Lydiate is the only player I don't think it really in contention, but Tuesday might change that.

The work for Halfpenny's try between Sexton, Roberts and Davies was superb.

Maitland surely played himself out of the side, Cutherb's poor defence last weekend is a major black mark against him. Can Zebo make the Test side? Could Halfpenny be moved to the wing to bring Kearney in who looked sharp of the bench?

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:49 pm

lostinwales wrote:Doesnt matter who makes the tackles - just that they are made

Pretty much. It is strange to assume "oh the 6 should have made all those tackles".

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