Lions V NSW Waratahs

by hugehandoff Tue 11 Jun 2013, 3:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously a very important game in the overall context of the tour. Gats should use it primarily as a tough run out for his test team 1 week before the test series begins. But will he still want to give some players a chance to put up their hands? Are there certain positions still up for grabs and if so will he try and use this game as a winner takes all shoot out. It is not ideal to still be asking players to play the Brumbies game and then appear in the 1st test, although not impossible.

For me it should be:

Adam Jones - nailed on
Hibbard - almost nailed on
Grant - experiment
POC - nailed on
AWJ - trial V Parling
Lydiate - needs to prove himself
Faletau - needs to prove himself
Warbs - needs to prove himself
Phillips - nailed on
Sexton - nailed on
North - nailed on
Roberts - nailed on
BOD - nailed on
Maitland - experiment
1/2P - nailed on

Bench:
Cole.....purely for some hard match practice as I see Jones as nailed on
T.Youngs....could challenge for a starting spot if he excels as a replacement - worth a look
Vuni.......originally viewed as an impact sub so interesting to see how he goes compared to the highly rated (by the Scots) Grant who is deserving of a start
Parling.....worth another look to see if he is worth a starting or bench spot
Croft....another who deserves a run out to see if he is worth a bench spot
Heaslip....given an opportunity could take the starters spot
Youngs....assuming he will be the test sub so let him see what impact he can make
Farrell....ditto as for Youngs

Is a 6/2 bench split a bit risky?

Who would you like to see run out on Sat and do you just want the test side to play or do you still see this as a chance to experiment and give players a fair crack?

Update with actual team.
Lions team: Leigh Halfpenny; Sean Maitland, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Simon Zebo; Jonathan Sexton, Mike Phillips; Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O'Connell , Tom Croft, Sam Warburton (capt), Jamie Heaslip
Replacements: Richard Hibbard, Alex Corbisiero, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Dan Lydiate, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Rob Kearney

by SecretFly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:49 pm

But it matters when people start nitpicking who did most of them and the charts come out. If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter (and I tend to agree as it's an overall team performance that wins games not 'reaching your markers' bullshyte).

But.......the charts will be out in force next week and will be liberally quoted from.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:50 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
wales606 wrote:I really think BOD could have to settle for a bench play after today

I guess we will see how much Gatland has already made his mind up

Hardly. Roberts been rather quiet and ineffective in attack, Davies excellent in attack but caught out too often in defence. BOD will be in there, no doubt about it.

WHAT!!!! For goodness sake

That would have been Farrell's reaction as well. He came up in a blitz a few times, creating gaps and exposing people outside him- even the Sky commentators pointed it out. If you watched the first half it was clearly obvious. So his performance has been very good, but far from perfect. Davies/BOD looks likes a good combo.

Sorry mate not going to argue this but he has been classic text book defence and attack. Yes he has come out a few times fast but twice its been beneficial - he has had interception pass, and has made a thumping tackle. Its all a bit transparent from you BOD is a great player but you are seeing things that are not there

Listen, even Sky pointed it out at half time. Davies came out on occasion too fast. You have to pick when and where to come out from the line, and on three of four occasions Davies chose wrong. He exposed the back three on those occasions. In fairness in the second half he has done it less, probably after Farrell tore strips off a few players at half time. Indeed, I would expect that he won't make those mistakes in the next match now it has been clearly pointed out to him. What on earth is unreasonable with pointing out that while he has had a very good match, he has not been the absolutely amazing performance made out by the cyclops brigade. He surely has to start the first Test alongside who has been outstanding in each match he has played. I fail to see the unreasonableness in that statement.

I hope you taped mate............ watch it again I fast forwarded through the first 30 mins, he did come out fast but twice it was beneficial and made the opponents think about playing flat and attempting the miss-pass, very clever by Foxy and nothing like you are suggesting . You are clutching at straws

So Sky pointed it out. I have pointed it out to you. Will Greenwood asked Davies himself about it and even he said mistakes had been made and the defence weren't completely on the same page. Yeah I must have imagined it. Good man yourself thumbsup

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:52 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Ha ha ha ha...!

Trev

On one side he has been superb the other he does bugger all as a forward.

Great pace but doesn't do enough in the forwards.

Plus points for him tonight are definitely winning a penalty at a ruck and scoring a try. Bad points is that we need another man at the breakdown and croft is out wide too often.

We need a happy medium between croft and Lydiate at blindside and the answer is Warburton to be honest. With Tipuric at openside.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Croft proves his unique talent

Forgetting someone, Maes? I think Sean O'Brien is a much better option for a happy medium.

Hi Rory
No i think SOB is our Bench and impact man, he is superb and will be a huge impact player for us.

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:01 pm

Sure the game could be over by the time SOB makes his "impact" off the bench. You need the best players on from the first minute.

by captain carrantuohil Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:18 pm

The only circumstance in which I could have imagined Warburton not starting would have been an outright and disastrous loss of form. It's too much of a gift to the opposition to admit to such a doubt over the nominated Tour skipper.

As it is, I think Warbs was better than solid today. Perhaps not quite at 2011-12 form just yet, but playing himself in nicely. More to come, I expect, and there is no question that he will be the man in the 7 jersey next Saturday.

The rest of the back row remains the biggest conundrum and it seems to me that balance is crucial. I would start with either Heaslip and O'Brien OR Croft and Faletau, but not a combination of these. Tipuric really doesn't deserve to be consigned to the bench, but that's where he will likely be on Saturday. He must be a part of the 23.

Elsewhere, I feel that AWJ nailed down the lock berth alongside POC. Tough on Parling and Gray, both of whom have been very good on tour, but one of them will miss out from the match day squad altogether (probably Parling). Nice to have such depth there. Today's starting front row, barring a miracle, will also start in 7 days, I imagine.

In the backs, so much depends on injuries. With Manu and the good doctor injury doubts, it must be Davies and BOD in midfield. Phillips starts, with Youngs on the bench, Sexton is a given and Halfpenny is indispensable. Leaves us with the wings and again, injuries are the thing. Will we have North? Bowe is out for sure, and I would undoubtedly go with Zebo on one wing now. If North is fit, fine; if not, it's a really difficult call for the other slot. The one weakness that needs to be addressed in this squad is defensive alignment and decision-making. The other available wings all have their problems in that department, so it's a tough call. For me, Cuthbert's proven finishing ability would give him the nod over Maitland if North doesn't make it.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:21 pm

LeinsterFan4life

I dont disagree with your statement and that is the reason for going for Tips and Warbs to start. they are the best two, with Heaslip at 8 we will have a devastating backrow.

SOB is a fine player, but he will be best as an impact player, I don't see him as a match winner.

Plus his ability to cover all positions on the backrow means he is a perfect super sub.

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:24 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Cari wrote:Wow! Look at those tackle stats...POC and Bread of Seven top tacklers today.

Croft at blindside didn't even get into that tackle stats POC and Warbs 11 each, Croft less than 7......... Blindside has to be top of the tackle stats IMHO

As a former openside I would have been disappointed in my performance if I did not have the most tackles.

There is a reason Richie McCaw is known in NZ as "Captain Tackles". It is a bit old fashioned to assume a 6 makes all the tackles, it actually rarely works out that way in most games.

The very nature of the modern game make the blindside role more dependant on tackling than ever. If you have a mobile 8 and a mobile 7 then you have to have a defensive 6.

Do you know how McCaw plays off Carter and the classic blindside play, if you look at the NZ play of five years ago McCaw used to spoil at the breakdown tackling sometimes 3-4 times in 60 seconds, he was not a attack minded openside.

I don't agree with any of this at all to be honest. You assume every team picks a mobile 7/8 and "chopper" at 6. It entirely depends on the team and what works best for them. There are different flankers and 8s with different strengths for their team. A 6 does not always have to make the most tackles, his role may be different in whatever side he plays and that is okay if it works. Croft for example plays very well for the Tigers, his tackling isn't an issue. He performs well in the backrow/pack/15 he is selected in.

Nowadays for the All Blacks, Kieran Read would lead the tackle count in the back row often. Despite playing at 8. It really does not have to be the 6, it is outdated to assume such a thing as it rarely actually happens nowadays. A quick look at the stats (yes they are not always accurate, but for a quick number you can get an idea) shows this.

Rory
Lets concentrate on the job at hand............. based on the assumption that quite a few guys on here want a Warbs 6 Tips 7 combo which in my mind is revealing an out of position player and a player whose strengths are on his mobile play in the loose. To me that's an immediate imbalance, when you add a mobile and not particularly aggressive 8 in Heaslip or a passive tackler and ball carrier in Faletau to the fold then in my mind its a recipe for disaster.

8. Heaslip
7. Tips
6. Warbs

to me is not the way to go into the 1st test.

Play today is either left-right or open-blind, if we play a mobile 7 and 8 then we have to have someone who will follow up the play and ensure the opposition is stopped. If we play Tips at 7 then we have not an 8 on tour that is big and aggressive enough to warrant a mobile attack minded 6.

Can you see you not see Australia strangling us in the rucks/mauls and that's where the game will be won next week.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:28 pm

maestegmafia wrote:LeinsterFan4life

I dont disagree with your statement and that is the reason for going for Tips and Warbs to start. they are the best two, with Heaslip at 8 we will have a devastating backrow.

SOB is a fine player, but he will be best as an impact player, I don't see him as a match winner.

Plus his ability to cover all positions on the backrow means he is a perfect super sub.

To be honest he has surprised me this Lions tour and proved to be exactly that. His handling skills in particular (along with his carrying and support play) has been immense. Very influential in many of the tries.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:31 pm

Fly - I have never believed Warburton is known for his open play in the loose. He mostly plays a very defensive orientated game. Very high tackle count, a lot of slowing down ball and forcing turnovers. Some big carries too. In fact I thought he and Tipuric alongside Faletau (another "mobile" 8) looked outstanding. If Richard Hill can move from 7 to 6 and form one of the best back row combinations in the world, why can't Warburton?

If they strangle us at the rucks and mauls, I would look to the tight 5 first before the back row.

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:31 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:LeinsterFan4life

I dont disagree with your statement and that is the reason for going for Tips and Warbs to start. they are the best two, with Heaslip at 8 we will have a devastating backrow.

SOB is a fine player, but he will be best as an impact player, I don't see him as a match winner.

Plus his ability to cover all positions on the backrow means he is a perfect super sub.

To be honest he has surprised me this Lions tour and proved to be exactly that. His handling skills in particular (along with his carrying and support play) has been immense. Very influential in many of the tries.

Agree with you Rory
He most certainly is a match winner

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:49 pm

Looking at this game, I get the feeling the starting Test back row will be Croft, Warburton, and Heaslip. Seems well balanced to me.
But, as we have all observed, there are a number of good solid match winning back row combinations in the team. I am more concerned about other positions than the back row. Specifically second row, wing and the centres.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:52 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Looking at this game, I get the feeling the starting Test back row will be Croft, Warburton, and Heaslip. Seems well balanced to me.
But, as we have all observed, there are a number of good solid match winning back row combinations in the team. I am more concerned about other positions than the back row. Specifically second row, wing and the centres.

Whats your concern Doc? Looks like we have some pretty awesome players there as well...!

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:56 pm

I haven't been really worried about the rugby, all week I have been thinking about Michelle Jenneke because she's from NSW.

Really guys check her video out:
http://vimeo.com/45784191

I love 2:53 when she breaks out in that beautiful smile when she realises she's won the race.

Anyway no relevance to rugby but it is relevant to NSW! thumbsup

by glamorganalun Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:56 pm

The breakdown was not great today, hardly saw Heaslip today until 70mins and Croft wants to play left wing but did take the try well but you could argue he should have passed. I thought that pack was a run out for next week, now I am not sure the defence near the breakdown should be better.

Maitland, he should be nowhere near the test team but Zebo did very well in the first half and could find himself on the bench but he should have scored the try. If North is not fit I can see 1/2Penny on the wing and Hogg at FB.

Good game today, the front 5 look good, the line out was safe with front ball but why no long balls, is Youngs throwing iffy?

JD2 had hell of a game as did POC, AWJ, 1/2Penny and Sexton was solid.

Roberts will be fit for next week, he often goes off as if he has be shot and he is back the following week.

It is unfair to comment on the subs when they are brought on as a mass as the flow of the game often goes to pot.

Can't wait for the test, Tuesday's game will determine who is not playing next week.

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:58 pm

I think that the back row looks strong whoever gets picked, there seems to be no weak link. Faletau or Heaslip at 8? Makes no difference. Same at 6 and 7.
The main problem remains at 10 if Sexton gets injured. Farrell showed why when he came on today. Aimless kicks, woeful passing and (unusually for him) not great tackling. Lets hope Hogg is on the bench for the test (or even 36).

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:02 pm

One thing that confuses me, why is it that whenever anyone suggests Hogg (or Kearney) playing with Halfpenny, its always with Leigh on the wing. Surely it should be Hogg on the wing (faster, more elusive runner) with Halfpenny at fullback (better under the high ball, better last ditch tackles and clearing kicks).

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:03 pm

Yes, yes but what about Michelle Jenneke? heart

by Guest Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:06 pm

Aelandor wrote:One thing that confuses me, why is it that whenever anyone suggests Hogg (or Kearney) playing with Halfpenny, its always with Leigh on the wing. Surely it should be Hogg on the wing (faster, more elusive runner) with Halfpenny at fullback (better under the high ball, better last ditch tackles and clearing kicks).

This is true. People would highlight Hogg's lines as the main reason, but Halfpenny has proven today he is more than comfortable picking lines.

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:06 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Looking at this game, I get the feeling the starting Test back row will be Croft, Warburton, and Heaslip. Seems well balanced to me.
But, as we have all observed, there are a number of good solid match winning back row combinations in the team. I am more concerned about other positions than the back row. Specifically second row, wing and the centres.

Whats your concern Doc? Looks like we have some pretty awesome players there as well...!

For the centres who is Inside? I don't like playing people out of position. If Roberts is hurt, and it looked like a hamstring, Twelvetrees is the only regular Inside Centre. Farrell plays a lot there too. But Farrell should be on the bench backing up Sexton. Does that mean Twelvetrees gets drafted in? Or do we play someone out of position?

On the wing, I am not sure who is injured and who not. North, if healthy, is an easy selection. No one else is knocking down the doors, are they? I suppose I like the idea of a North-Zebo combo. For the record, I prefer Halfpenny at fullback, not taking the other wing spot.

Second row is a bit of an conundrum. I have a feeling O'Connell will start. To me that's a mistake. He played well today but is now not very mobile. Still strong as an ox and smart. But if he gets run at, which I would do, he will be gassed by halftime, if not injured again. I like AWJ. But not the biggest Parling fan, who I think is the best lineout lock.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:13 pm

Jonathan Davies plays 12 for the Scarlets most of the time

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:18 pm

Jonathan Daives plays plenty of Twelve, really don't think there is much of an issue with him and BOD on the field, I can only see the positives. Twelvetrees is a good player but he hasn't played any serious international rugby since england vs Ireland, where he was bizarrely subbed by England and not used again. Shame for all of us as I am sure he would have made the squad if he had of had more opportunity at international level.

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:22 pm

wales606 wrote:Jonathan Davies plays 12 for the Scarlets most of the time

I thought Scott Williams was the regular Inside Centre for Scarlets.

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:27 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
wales606 wrote:Jonathan Davies plays 12 for the Scarlets most of the time
I thought Scott Williams was the regular Inside Centre for Scarlets.

He is, Scott Williams plays 12, JD2 plays 13!

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:30 pm

Where is Scott Williams?

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:31 pm

Shifty wrote:Yes, yes but what about Michelle Jenneke?

I cant thank you enough for that post

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:32 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Shifty wrote:Yes, yes but what about Michelle Jenneke?

I cant thank you enough for that post

Your welcome, I think were the only 2 heterosexual men on the forum! Hug

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:33 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Shifty wrote:Yes, yes but what about Michelle Jenneke?

I cant thank you enough for that post

But that was last year's love interest.
Now that she is a year older, she is too old for me...............

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:33 pm

Shifty wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
wales606 wrote:Jonathan Davies plays 12 for the Scarlets most of the time
I thought Scott Williams was the regular Inside Centre for Scarlets.

He is, Scott Williams plays 12, JD2 plays 13!

This year it has been, but last year and the year before JD2 was almost always names at 12

The two swap around anyway so Davies has had plenty of time playing in the 12 channel at second reciever

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:35 pm

Doesn't seem the Lions management has even considered him Inside, though. At least from what I have seen.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:36 pm

JD2 mixes it up at inside and outside with both Jamie Roberts and Scott Williams.

Scott, Jon D and Adam warren at Scarlets all started their careers, playing all their youth rugby at inside centre and have played plenty their since.

Roberts was a fullback moved to centre by Gatland in NZ in 08. Roberts has also played plenty at thirteen, mainly for Wales.

BOD and D'Arcy always mix up twelve and thirteen for Ireland and Leinster too so this really is not an issue at all.

The only time that it is an issue is if you have an out and out flyer centre, like Jerry Guscott, they have to play outside, and footballing inside centres, like Henson, need to be played at inside centre as a sort of second 5/8ths type 12.

Hope that explains it all for you.

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:37 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Shifty wrote:Yes, yes but what about Michelle Jenneke?

I cant thank you enough for that post
But that was last year's love interest.
Now that she is a year older, she is too old for me...............

Even at 19 there isn't a fitter lady anywhere in the world.

http://vimeo.com/45784191
Look at 2:53 again! Lions V NSW Waratahs - Page 11 3933776953

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:39 pm

Maesteg stop going off topic, were talking about Michelle Jenneke! Hug

by glamorganalun Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:43 pm

Aelandor wrote:One thing that confuses me, why is it that whenever anyone suggests Hogg (or Kearney) playing with Halfpenny, its always with Leigh on the wing. Surely it should be Hogg on the wing (faster, more elusive runner) with Halfpenny at fullback (better under the high ball, better last ditch tackles and clearing kicks).

The reason I suggested 1/2Penny for the wing is he started playing for Wales as a very good wing as L Bryne was FB at the time. 1/2Penny only played FB due to Bryne's loss of form and J Hook being an OK FB as a sub. If 1/2 Penny was on the wing instead of Zebo he would have scored.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:43 pm

Doc JD2 played inside centre for half the game with bod on tuesday and Started at inside centre against the reds with Tuilagi outside.doctor_grey wrote:Doesn't seem the Lions management has even considered him Inside, though. At least from what I have seen.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:46 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
Aelandor wrote:One thing that confuses me, why is it that whenever anyone suggests Hogg (or Kearney) playing with Halfpenny, its always with Leigh on the wing. Surely it should be Hogg on the wing (faster, more elusive runner) with Halfpenny at fullback (better under the high ball, better last ditch tackles and clearing kicks).

The reason I suggested 1/2Penny for the wing is he started playing for Wales as a very good wing as L Bryne was FB at the time. 1/2Penny only played FB due to Bryne's loss of form and J Hook being an OK FB as a sub. If 1/2 Penny was on the wing instead of Zebo he would have scored.

Halfpenny was a fullback all through the age grades and has always said he wants to play fullback - he hasn't played on the wing since 2011

The only reason he didn't start his career at FB was because he had to compete against Ben Blair at the Blues

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:54 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Doc JD2 played inside centre for half the game with bod on tuesday and Started at inside centre against the reds with Tuilagi outside.doctor_grey wrote:Doesn't seem the Lions management has even considered him Inside, though. At least from what I have seen.

Really? Must have been the second half. I turned that match off at halftime because I thought the Combined Countries team was a bit of a joke.

by **rodders** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:14 pm

Best Lions performance of the tour.

Big games from O'Connell, Croft and Halfpenny but most of all AWJ and Davies who may well have nailed starting spots in the first test.

Zebo looked good too in his debut.

Maitland was disappointing again I thought....could Zebo pip him to a test place if North fails to recover?

by Cari Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:22 pm

rodders wrote:

Maitland was disappointing again I thought....could Zebo pip him to a test place if North fails to recover?

I think it'll be Cutherbert at 14 and Zebo at 11 assuming North doesn't recover. As soon as Tommy does though... Whistle

by **George Carlin** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:48 pm

I've heard you like a man with a plate in his hand, Cari.

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