Lions Backrow Dilema. Its Tipuric or Croft for me...!

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:49 pm

Today I thought Heaslip and Warburton earned two spots in the backrow, who will make the third.

For me we need a player who can do half what Croft does well in the open play, back support, lineout, and half what Lydiate does well in the tight with tackling and aggressive ball winning work around rucks expoliting the aussie attack and defence around the breakdown.

That man for me would be Warburton.

With Tipuric at openside we have a fetcher support player and in Warburton and Heaslip we have everything else we need in defence, attack and ball winning.

Great game in some aspects for Crofty, Warburton and Heaslip today...!

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:51 pm

I do tend to agree

I think Croft will start the first test, with Tips or SOB on the bench

If the breakdown going against the Lions, I think Warburton and Tipuric will start test 2

We need a bit more presence at the breakdown - it's a real pity we don't have a fit and on form Gethin Jenkins to play

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 12:53 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Today I thought Heaslip and Warburton earned two spots in the backrow, who will make the third.

For me we need a player who can do half what Croft does well in the open play, back support, lineout, and half what Lydiate does well in the tight with tackling and aggressive ball winning work around rucks expoliting the aussie attack and defence around the breakdown.

That man for me would be Warburton.

With Tipuric at openside we have a fetcher support player and in Warburton and Heaslip we have everything else we need in defence, attack and ball winning.

Great game in some aspects for Crofty, Warburton and Heaslip today...!

I ask again Maes, are you forgetting someone here? Someone who actually plays 6?

EDIT: Just saw your answer on the match thread. Fair enough, but I think SOB fits the bill entirely for what you are looking for.

by Steffan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:07 pm

Tipuric has to start. He has to be in the test XV. There is no other way

by Duty281 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:10 pm

Croft at 6
Tipuric at 7
Heaslip at 8

No other way surely. Let BOD or O'Connell be captain.

by Metal Tiger Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:11 pm

IMO Croft will start the 1st test in the 6 shirt, with Tipuric & Heaslip at 7 and 8 respectively.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:17 pm

Lets see you guys not just post who you want but why...!

This needs opinion and discussion not just a vote on who thinks who.

Every single backrow forward has merits for their inclusion. THey are all very different styled players.

It is a measure of balance of abilities that will compliment each other that will make things work well in the tests.

by Duty281 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:19 pm

Croft - Good at the lineout, great pace, superb strength, a try-scoring threat, and experienced.

Tipuric - A better version of Sam Warburton, and he's in better form.

Heaslip - Played well on this tour so far and deserves a starting place, though it is very tight between him and Faletau.

by Breadvan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:20 pm

Warbs will start, he's the skipper, end of. A dilemma for the coaches alright...

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:Croft - Good at the lineout, great pace, superb strength, a try-scoring threat, and experienced.

Tipuric - A better version of Sam Warburton, and he's in better form.

Heaslip - Played well on this tour so far and deserves a starting place, though it is very tight between him and Faletau.

EDIT: The comment about Tipuric is strange too, it is as if you assume Tipuric and Warburton are similar players with similar strengths. They are both a very different style of player. One of more offensive, the other defensive.

by gleesonisgod Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:21 pm

I thought Croft's huge advantage was his skill at the lineout? Didn't really show it today. Again he didn't do much at the breakdown proved that he is just a luxury player. I'd rather have Lydiate tbh.

Warburton again wasn't up to too much. He was good mind you but not in the form that Tipuric has atm.

Still 6.SOB 7.Tipuric 8.Heaslip for me. Probably going to be Croft, Warbs, Heaslip.

I would have liked if they had tried SOB at 8 at some stage.

by Duty281 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:21 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Croft - Good at the lineout, great pace, superb strength, a try-scoring threat, and experienced.

Tipuric - A better version of Sam Warburton, and he's in better form.

Heaslip - Played well on this tour so far and deserves a starting place, though it is very tight between him and Faletau.

Or power, whichever word you prefer.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:24 pm

Well apart from the fact strength and power are two different things, Croft is really not a player I would associate with either at blindside. The likes of Ferris, Kaino, Alberts and Higginbotham are guys I would see as big powerful units at 6.

by lostinwales Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:29 pm

Well if you want more presence at the breakdown you could always start with Cole instead of Jones - just saying like..

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 1:36 pm

Croft / Tips / Heaslip is lightweight to say the least

Rucks/Mauls will be consistently lost with that backrow, and lets not kid ourselves the game will be win or lost in those key areas

Warburton will start and he did enough in the two games against the only quality sides we have played most deffo the only option at 7

by Meflanker Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:31 pm

Croft was competing at a lot of rucks today, slowing down ball, rucking out and being a general nuisance in the tight as well as stealing a lineout.
However sometimes it seems that people see the one run he did out wide (in which he burned the Tah's backline to score) and presume that was all he did in the whole game.

by kingjohn7 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:50 pm

Id like to see 6.Lydiate, 7.Tipuric, 8.SOB given a go in the next match. I really think they could do well together.

by fa0019 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:52 pm

Warburton will play. We saw that today.

Croft is also so important.

In the end the lineout is just that much more secure with croft. If we can dominate lineout then we go a long way to winning the series. Croft is miles ahead of everyone else in that department.

He's as tall as jones and O'Connell but just over 100kg and only requires one lifter. It means it gives us disguise in attack and speed in trying to pickpocket AUS ball.

What a weapon to have out wide too and with AUS very strong in the backs who will make line breaks we need people who can chase them down.

Lydiate, not full guns blazing so for me at 6 it's croft or o'brien.

If we play tipuric and warburton you lose that lineout.

I think it will be croft warburton Heaslip and o'brien as benching cover and I think it should be too.

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:54 pm

8 - Heaslip (Faletau)
7 - Warburton (Tipuric)
6 - SOB (Croft/Lydiate) thumbsup

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:14 pm

I find it difficult to understand when posters state that Lydiate is not playing well when both matches has seen him been top of the stats in what a blindside flanker primarily has to do..... and not just top of the stats (tackling and support play) but a country mile ahead.

I would suggest and hope that we have

8. Heaslip - Toby is too passive as a tackler
7. Warbs - Played really well against the two best teams that have been against us
6. Lydiate - Balances the other two, great understanding with Warburton, and the "chopper" Lydiate then "turnover" Warburton in my mind is the best combo in the NH

However I can see Mr G selecting Croft at blindside and Toby at 8

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:19 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:I find it difficult to understand when posters state that Lydiate is not playing well when both matches has seen him been top of the stats in what a blindside flanker primarily has to do..... and not just top of the stats (tackling and support play) but a country mile ahead.

I would suggest and hope that we have

8. Heaslip - Toby is too passive as a tackler
7. Warbs - Played really well against the two best teams that have been against us
6. Lydiate - Balances the other two, great understanding with Warburton, and the "chopper" Lydiate then "turnover" Warburton in my mind is the best combo in the NH

However I can see Mr G selecting Croft at blindside and Toby at 8

Not just stats back up his candidacy. He has an immense presence closing the door on something the Waratah's exploited today until he came on.

With Croft in midfield and heasilp in the route 1 channel there was no one to help Warburton defend the rucks bar front five forwards.

Croft is too much of a glory player. There for the tries, the odd tackle or penalty win. But not enough of the graft work.

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:22 pm

O'Brien has been the form player of the tour for me, he is simply awesome. How the hell people aren't picking him is beyond me. He's the first guy I would pick.

I'd go with Heaslip at 8 because he plays well off O'Brien, so then it's a straight shoot out between Tipuric or Warburton.

If I went for form I'd go for Tipuric, but maybe Warburton to start with Tipuric to come on in the last 25 minutes? Headscratch

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:23 pm

Croft. Lydiate and SOB are all worthy of the 6 jersey on equal merit IMO. It just comes down to how Gatland wants to play it

by winchester Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:23 pm

Heaslip was poor today. He cost a try by failing to control from the base of the scrum and was relatively inconsipcuos as a carrier.

Gatland has created a dilemma for himself by making Waburton captain when the backrow was so heavily contested and wide open. Now everytime Warburton plays he is under additional scrutiny and if things dont go so well in the first Test then this will become a major talking point. Its already an unwelcome distraction which could have been avoided.

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:26 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Croft. Lydiate and SOB are all worthy of the 6 jersey on equal merit IMO. It just comes down to how Gatland wants to play it

100% agree

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:27 pm

winchester wrote:Heaslip was poor today. He cost a try by failing to control from the base of the scrum and was relatively inconsipcuos as a carrier.

Gatland has created a dilemma for himself by making Waburton captain when the backrow was so heavily contested and wide open. Now everytime Warburton plays he is under additional scrutiny and if things dont go so well in the first Test then this will become a major talking point. Its already an unwelcome distraction which could have been avoided.

How?

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:31 pm

The unwelcome distraction is there because so called fans are happy to eulogise about a 6 hiding on the wing and a prop running in trys through paper defences as opposed to supporting their captain who continues to consistently do the hard graft. thumbsup

by Cyril Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:41 pm

Lions spirit is at an all-time low on this forum.

It just seems to be posters insulting or criticising players from other nations for point-scoring purposes.

Oh dear.

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:52 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Lions spirit is at an all-time low on this forum.

It just seems to be posters insulting or criticising players from other nations for point-scoring purposes.

Oh dear.

Well said Cyril - time to get behind our Captain and his team

by Cyril Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:53 pm

Agreed, Ruby. You should get behind everybody not just pick and choose your favourites and have a go at players from other nations.

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:56 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Agreed, Ruby. You should get behind everybody not just pick and choose your favourites and have a go at players from other nations.

Someone has to get in a draw the line at the criticism of our Captain Cyril - In all honesty I'm fed up with it while they eulogise about cameo performances. The Tests are not the place for the cameo boys and I'm sure you agree with that - Cometh the hour we will need the hard men to stand up

by Cyril Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:59 pm

Ruby, I guess some are also sick with the constant criticism of Farrell (who has been fine) and Croft (who some people really don't watch properly).

Which prop were you have a dig at? Vunipola, I guess.

You need to sort out how you do those quotes too.

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

C'mon Cyril gte that Lions spirit back - we have some tough calls to make - that's life - Last night we had posters saying 1/2 p isn't an attacking threat thumbsup

by winchester Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

Selection is obviously going to be a hot topic on Lions tour. Just because people have different opinions on who should be selected or who is in/out of form or performed well/poorly in a match does not mean they are not behind the Lions or are being selfish to their own nation.

by JmD Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:20 pm

O'Brien doesn't play for one match and suddenly everyone forgets how dominant he has been. He is the best option for 6, he offers everything that Croft offers in loose play minus a tiny bit of speed, and also brings more power to the tackle area.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:20 pm

Please ignore the troll guys... Lets keep the thread on backrow rugby...! He has been reported and will likely serve another ban.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:23 pm

JmD wrote:O'Brien doesn't play for one match and suddenly everyone forgets how dominant he has been. He is the best option for 6, he offers everything that Croft offers in loose play minus a tiny bit of speed, and also brings more power to the tackle area.

I think as said above everyone has a good case for test spot, I wouldn't discount SOB, I would though see him as the most qualified bench backrower as he has the most experience in all positions rather than just one or two.

That said I do not think he is the best in any one position and therefor I would look at other options.

Also I am more persuaded by the way the Lions are being forced to play due to the diversity in styles in the backrowers on tour. That maybe it should be looked at as which three players compliment each other best whilst carrying out the rolls needed.

by Cyril Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:25 pm

RubyGuby wrote:C'mon Cyril gte that Lions spirit back - we have some tough calls to make - that's life - Last night we had posters saying 1/2 p isn't an attacking threat

Agreed. Of course HP is an attacking threat. He just hasn't always shown it in the current gameplan. Played well today.

by RubyGuby Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:26 pm

That's more like it - Nice one Cyril Ale

by markb Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:28 pm

SOB, Tipuric & Heaslip would be my backrow, but I can't see Gatland not starting Warburton. I also think Gatland will go with Croft for what he adds at the lineout (which has probably been the least smoothest aspect of our play across the warm up games), one of the first things on Gatland's checklist and a core of his gameplan is dominance at the set piece.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:31 pm

I certainly don't think Heaslip has nailed on the test jersey after today, out of the 3 starting I would say Croft nailed his place the most, well that and we know Warburton will start but done enough today to warrant it.

For me it would be Croft Faletau Warburton

by offload Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:53 pm

If you think that there are better open sides than Warburton on tour and better blind sides than him, well that's perfectly reasonable. I may think that way too.

However, If you think that Sam Warburton won't wear the 7 shirt next Saturday and captain the side......well, you are away with the pixies !

Injury aside - it is a certainty.

I happen to think he'll start Croft and Faletau to complete the backrow.

by Exiledinborders Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:56 pm

Croft - Warburton or Tipuric - Faletau

Other than offering more at line-out and more try scoring potential than the other options one of Croft's advantages is that he will still be strong after 80 minutes.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:01 pm

Exiled,

Even as a huge Lydiate fan I agree with you on most things but one area where Dan wouldn't let you down is on the fitness front he is a machine and would more than be going strong after 80 minutes.

by Metal Tiger Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:Croft - Good at the lineout, great pace, superb strength, a try-scoring threat, and experienced.

Tipuric - A better version of Sam Warburton, and he's in better form.

Heaslip - Played well on this tour so far and deserves a starting place, though it is very tight between him and Faletau.

+1

Only thing I would really add is that Heaslips ball control at the breakdown/set piece is far better than Faletau... despite the obvious scrum cockup today.

by Artful_Dodger Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:01 pm

Personally, I think O'Brien has been the form back row of the tour so far.

by HammerofThunor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:03 pm

It's amazing how may posters' form back row players are from their team. Funny coincidence that.

Except the Scottish.

by Artful_Dodger Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:21 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:It's amazing how may posters' form back row players are from their team. Funny coincidence that.

Except the Scottish.

Bit like the way you are arguing for England players to be selected in nearly every post.

by HammerofThunor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:27 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:It's amazing how may posters' form back row players are from their team. Funny coincidence that.

Except the Scottish.

Bit like the way you are arguing for England players to be selected in nearly every post.

Any examples?

by flyhalffactory Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:45 pm

I am getting a bad feeling about the back-row selection after reading the calls for so many mobile attack minded combos............. the Aussie pack will be licking their lips

Scrum/Rucks/Mauls/Set-Piece are going to be the key areas

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