Australia vs British and Irish Lions - 22nd June : TEST 1 BUILDUP

by wales606 Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, it's only a week to go before the first Lions test for 4 years.

Gatland has a host of injuries and a game against the Brumbies to manoeuvre while deciding the 23 players who will take to the pitch next Saturday.

Christian Wade and Brad Barritt have both been called up to cover for injury concerns over Jamie Roberts, Manu Tuilagi, Tommy Bowe and George North

My team for Saturday

1. Maku Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Tom Croft
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. George North (Simon Zebo)
12. Jonathan Davies
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Richard Hibbard
17. Alex Corbisiero
18. Dan Cole
19. Richie Gray
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell
23. Manu Tuilagi/Stuart Hogg

Thoughts?

by flyhalffactory Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:33 pm

nathan wrote:All this rubbish spouted off about croft, he seemed to cope well in 2009 against a far more physical boks team.

Makes you laugh, but I guess meas can't talk about Farrell at the minute as he's not in the starting 15....

its not about a siege mentality mate

Its not about Croft doing something FOUR YEARS AGO........ its all about does he bring a balance to the backrow with Heaslip and Warburton on tow. My view is with a lightweight 8 (in all due respect to Heaslip who is a great 8), and Warbs who likes his fellow 6 to nail the tackle so he can gain the turnover, we need a traditional tackling blindside. Croft is a superbly consistent player who is honest in his play but to we need a destructive organised defensive game, and that's just not him.

by Cadair Idris Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:41 pm

Re North's injury. I certainly hope he is fit and ready, but it must be said that Gatland and Howley have some form in naming a player who is being rushed back from injury (presumably in the hope that he will be fit in a few days' time rather than more cynical reasons) only for the player to fail a fitness test just before the game. I recall this happening with Warburton vs Scotland in the 2012 6 Nations - replaced just before the game by Shingler, and think it has happened on other occasions with Wales in the last couple of years. I hope I'm wrong but it would not surprise me if North fails a late fitness test with Maitland replacing him and Zebo or Hogg taking the bench spot.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:08 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
nathan wrote:All this rubbish spouted off about croft, he seemed to cope well in 2009 against a far more physical boks team.

Makes you laugh, but I guess meas can't talk about Farrell at the minute as he's not in the starting 15....

its not about a siege mentality mate

Its not about Croft doing something FOUR YEARS AGO........ its all about does he bring a balance to the backrow with Heaslip and Warburton on tow. My view is with a lightweight 8 (in all due respect to Heaslip who is a great 8), and Warbs who likes his fellow 6 to nail the tackle so he can gain the turnover, we need a traditional tackling blindside. Croft is a superbly consistent player who is honest in his play but to we need a destructive organised defensive game, and that's just not him.

If they are looking to play that sort of defensive pattern, or indeed a defensive gameplan, then as I said on another thread Croft is a luxury they cannot afford.

His selection indicates they are looking to other areas to play the game, and everyone to defend. I fully expect we will see Tom Youngs making a lot of tackles, and BOD will top the turnovers secured count.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:14 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

nathan wrote:All this rubbish spouted off about croft, he seemed to cope well in 2009 against a far more physical boks team.

Makes you laugh, but I guess meas can't talk about Farrell at the minute as he's not in the starting 15....

its not about a siege mentality mate

Its not about Croft doing something FOUR YEARS AGO........ its all about does he bring a balance to the backrow with Heaslip and Warburton on tow. My view is with a lightweight 8 (in all due respect to Heaslip who is a great 8), and Warbs who likes his fellow 6 to nail the tackle so he can gain the turnover, we need a traditional tackling blindside. Croft is a superbly consistent player who is honest in his play but to we need a destructive organised defensive game, and that's just not him.

If they are looking to play that sort of defensive pattern, or indeed a defensive gameplan, then as I said on another thread Croft is a luxury they cannot afford.

His selection indicates they are looking to other areas to play the game, and everyone to defend. I fully expect we will see Tom Youngs making a lot of tackles, and BOD will top the turnovers secured count.

We surely need BOD to take on the mantle of destructive runner and creator of opportunities not worrying that the opposing 8 and 6 are not going to be stopped before the 10 has too much to space to start looking for the gaps

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:18 pm

FHF,

Indeed we do, but at the same time if the ball is there to be won, should any player be running away from it?

Also I think we are worrying far too much about what Australia might do and how we negate them. We have a team that is full of strengths as well, so let them worry about us.

by GunsGerms Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:FHF,

Indeed we do, but at the same time if the ball is there to be won, should any player be running away from it?

Also I think we are worrying far too much about what Australia might do and how we negate them. We have a team that is full of strengths as well, so let them worry about us.

100%

by flyhalffactory Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:44 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:FHF,

Indeed we do, but at the same time if the ball is there to be won, should any player be running away from it?

Also I think we are worrying far too much about what Australia might do and how we negate them. We have a team that is full of strengths as well, so let them worry about us.

100%

Of course not and if any player did that they should be on the next plane home. But lets not romanticise the forthcoming game, it may not be an open running game in the sunshine.

Firstly the weather forecast is rain, hence the running game will be negated, secondly in a deeper more moist playing surface it will be a dogfight at the breakdown, our engine room at the scrum, and our back three will have to man up at the rucks and mauls. Lets be honest if its grey skies and moist conditions then we need to play to our strengths and that includes horses for courses.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:04 pm

I just think that the Aussies will be attacking a little further out from the set-piece/breakdown, so Coaches want pace to counter that.

As always there are decisions we may disagree with, and I concur that Lydiate seems an odd choice for the bench - but predictable though. Everything the management has said and done seemed to indicate this, hence why I had Lydiate effectively on my bench on the prediction thread.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:41 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I just think that the Aussies will be attacking a little further out from the set-piece/breakdown, so Coaches want pace to counter that.

As always there are decisions we may disagree with, and I concur that Lydiate seems an odd choice for the bench - but predictable though. Everything the management has said and done seemed to indicate this, hence why I had Lydiate effectively on my bench on the prediction thread.

Although apparently Australia don't do much of their attacking outside of "back row range"

by dragonbreath Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:28 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Croft has been getting plaudits in media (surely not) for his workrate at the breakdown as well as his more 'noticable' work out wide.

Still, I guess that must be the 'English' media spinning, eh?

Really hope Croft is in at 6. Most seem to think he will be.

And there you have it. Your wish is granted. If you say something often enough. Lets hope his lovely swerve and hand off come in handy eh. All the best to Warbs, his rep may never recover having to do the work of 3 at the breakdown and being obliterated in the process.

by Cyril Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:32 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Croft has been getting plaudits in the ENGLISH media (surely not) for his workrate at the breakdown as well as his more 'noticable' work out wide.

Still, I guess that must be the 'English' media spinning, eh?

Really hope Croft is in at 6. Most seem to think he will be.

And there you have it. Your wish is granted

Yeah, sorry. It appears successful coaches agree with me and not you. I can only apologise on our behalf.

Lighten up! Smile

by dragonbreath Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:44 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Croft has been getting plaudits in the ENGLISH media (surely not) for his workrate at the breakdown as well as his more 'noticable' work out wide.

Still, I guess that must be the 'English' media spinning, eh?

Really hope Croft is in at 6. Most seem to think he will be.

And there you have it. Your wish is granted

Yeah, sorry. It appears successful coaches agree with me and not you. I can only apologise on our behalf.

Lighten up!

Lets hope you don't have to apologise eh

by maestegmafia Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:15 am

FROM FOX SPORTS Australia

Has British and Irish Lions coach Warren Gatland just made the same selection mistake that cost the Wallabies so dearly at Rugby World Cup 2011, by not picking a back-up openside flanker in his Test squad to play Australia on Saturday night?

Two years ago Wallabies coach Robbie Deans gambled on getting through the entire World Cup with only one specialist No. 7 but his planning came unstuck when David Pocock was injured and No. 8 Ben McCalman was forced to pinch-hit as an opensider against Ireland.

Australia's loss that day, with Ireland flanker Sean O'Brien ruling the breakdown, meant the Wallabies squandered their favoured draw and instead of avoiding the All Blacks until the final, lost to them in a semi-final.

Deans learned the lesson and has since made it a priority to play a specialist openside flanker on his bench, with Liam Gill filling that role on Saturday night as back-up to Michael Hooper.

Significantly, the eight Tests Gill has played have all been in tandem with Hooper so there is a very real possibility of Australia closing out the Test with two jackals on the field - both faster to the ball than the Lions' solitary No 7, captain Sam Warburton.

Gatland had the option of naming O'Brien or Justin Tipuric, the man of the match for Wales in the Six Nations decider against England, as a back-up No. 7 but opted for Welshman Dan Lydiate - a specialist blindside flanker - as his only backrow reserve.

Neither Tipuric nor O'Brien enhanced his chances in the loss to the Brumbies - reserve halfback Ben Youngs being the only player from that calamity to make it into the Lions' Test 23 - but both had impressed in their earlier tour appearances.

Lydiate is an exceptional tackler and a handy lineout jumper but if the Wallabies' speed over the ground begins to translate into control of the breakdown he is not the man to rectify the problem.

More likely England blindside flanker Tom Croft would be swung into the ball-scavenging role if Warburton was injured. But while he has the pace to match the Australians, he has virtually no experience at No 7.

It is in their bench selections that the opposing philosophies of the two New Zealanders coaching these sides become most evident. Where Deans has opted for mobility in every instance save for reserve tighthead Sekope Kepu, Gatland has favoured power.

Having Dan Cole, Richard Hibbard and Mako Vunipola to inject into the front-row contest means the Lions will have a powered-up scrum for the full 80 minutes.

Clearly where the Wallabies hope to run the Lions off their feet as the match wears on, the tourists have ambitions of grinding them down, reaping rewards through a dominant set piece.

Gatland conceded Vunipola was unlucky to miss out to England's Alex Corbisiero at loosehead but the Pontypool-raised Tongan's scrummaging technique came in for criticism from Bob Dwyer last week and the Lions coach clearly is concerned the Wallabies and referee Chris Pollard might have targeted him.

"I have no doubt that Robbie Deans has looked at Mako in terms of technique at scrum time," said Gatland, who is concerned rain on the night could make the set piece battle even more critical.

"Technically Alex is probably a little bit sounder and I think the referee and at scrum time, we think we have potentially a little bit of an edge."

Gatland discounted the suggestion that the loss of heavyweight three-quarters Jamie Roberts, Tommy Bowe and Manu Tuilagi had robbed the Lions of their physicality out wide.

Certainly there is nothing small about 105kg centre Jonathan Davies while Gatland admitted he was salivating at the thought of watching 110kg winger George North go head-to-head with 98kg Israel Folau.

"That's almost worth the fare on its own," he said.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/warren-gatland-may-live-to-regret-not-picking-a-back-up-no7-on-his-lions-bench-wayne-smith-writes/story-fn5k35fo-1226667320388#ixzz2WqPX9Io1

by Cyril Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:16 am

dragonbreath wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Croft has been getting plaudits in the ENGLISH media (surely not) for his workrate at the breakdown as well as his more 'noticable' work out wide.

Still, I guess that must be the 'English' media spinning, eh?

Really hope Croft is in at 6. Most seem to think he will be.

And there you have it. Your wish is granted

Yeah, sorry. It appears successful coaches agree with me and not you. I can only apologise on our behalf.

Lighten up!

Lets hope you don't have to apologise eh

I'll let Gats do it if necessary. Don't worry yourself son.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:17 am

My thought on the test team :

Maitland is lucky, AWJ and Geoff Parling are lucky and so is Cuthbert.

AWJ seems to have taken Gray's test short with one good performance whilst Gray played against the Brumbies with a hooker who's lineout accuracy was so bad that he probably couldn't hit water if fell out of a boat. Gray not in the 23 is a bit of a shocker.

Maitland shoudn't be there either. Zebo has looked a lot better and Sadly Hogg was shafted by Gatland and put into a position he wasn't familiar with instead of getting the chance to assert himself at 11, 14 or 15.

Cuthbert ^ see above Zebo and Hogg looked better.

Vinapola is also really unlucky too, for me he has been the best player on tour.

My biggest concern is it is still so bish bash bosh. Gatland has learned nothing from his encounters with Australia in the past.

I hope the Lions win but my guess is Australia by 7. We can win the series but it'll start with Victory in the 2nd test when Gatland realises that we'll need more than 16st wingers to win these games..

by daiglass63 Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:31 am

Rugger,

You obviously know very little about the game do you?

by RubyGuby Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:36 am

daiglass63 wrote:Rugger,

You obviously know very little about the game do you?

Stands back and awaits the Fury

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:53 am

RubyGuby wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:Rugger,

You obviously know very little about the game do you?

Stands back and awaits the Fury

Who me?

Daiglass, can I suggest you debate the comments not the poster, borderline personal attacks will only get you in trouble

by captain carrantuohil Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:59 am

I don't think that Gray has been at his best for much of the past 18 months or so and while he's not let anyone down, I still don't believe that he has used those immense physical gifts of his to maximum advantage in recent games with Scotland or, up to now, with the Lions.

A couple of years ago, he looked something else, a player to build a pack around. He's generally been alright since, but he hasn't looked like the potentially all-time great lock that he did earlier. On form, it could be argued that he was a little lucky to get the nod for this trip ahead of Ryan or Launchbury. In Australia, there's little doubt that the two starters have earned their place by right. Parling benefited from the general uptick in performance from the replacements last Tuesday, but he has also been at least as conspicuous as Gray in matches beforehand. A narrow call, I agree, but hardly what I would describe as a "shocker".

I wonder how much the entire Scottish front 5 were penalised before the tour for their failure to turn up at all at Twickenham this year? They improved greatly afterwards, but I have a feeling that it may have cost a couple of them dearly. Gray probably lost his "certain Lions starter" status in that game and while he hasn't been helped by playing his club rugby with a bad side, he is capable of much better than we've seen recently from him. By contrast, it might be fair to say that someone like Parling is maximising every ounce of his ability. Gray has far more of that than most locks, but something is preventing him from deploying it all just now.

by flyhalffactory Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:10 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My thought on the test team :

My biggest concern is it is still so bish bash bosh. Gatland has learned nothing from his encounters with Australia in the past.

I hope the Lions win but my guess is Australia by 7. We can win the series but it'll start with Victory in the 2nd test when Gatland realises that we'll need more than 16st wingers to win these games..

Agree with you mate.

This has all the shades of a Welsh strategy, I haven't a lot of confidence in Mr G when it comes to playing against SH teams particularly OZ. He has been forced to select the best option at 12 (and probably the best tour player so far) and I am convinced if Roberts had been fit (and Manu) then Davies would have been sitting in his blazer watching from the stands.
FB
Hogg - Gatland has all but destroyed this youngsters confidence, coming into the tour off a very good season as FB, he has ended up representing the Lions as a 10 with a brand new and dysfunctional team around him contributing to our first loss of the tour. Was considered to be the utility back coverage and now not even in the test 23, somehow I could see this coming.

WINGS
Maitland - I was hoping the he would aspire to all the potential we all said he would....... but saddens me to say he has been disappointing.
Cuthbert - A try machine you can't doubt that and gives 100% however he had a dire defensive tour and in my mind Zebo did enough to start

HALFBACKS
Youngs - Had a mare but then again they all did, but Murray hasn't been that impressive so 50/50 call

THE ENGINE ROOM
Corbisiero - I believe Gatland has got it right here, its going to wet and slippery and Corbs is the better scrummager than Vunipola, and probably better in the lineout broken play. Close call though.
Hibbard - IMHO has been very poor and doesn't deserve a test 23 slot, his technique is getting worse, and I fear he will be popping up under pressure in the scrum. I can feel penalties coming against us in the last 20 mins.
Gray - AWJ pulled a massive performance out of the bag and all due respects he narrowly deserved the test jersey, but Gray did enough to get in the 23 amazingly poor call.

THE BACKROW
Croft - great going (wing) forward player, fantastic if its going to be a sunny day with quick accelerators like Hogg Maitland and Zebo, unfortunately its not going to be either. Its going to be wet and we will have Juggernauts like North and Cuthbert on the flanks. More importantly he will be the second passive player/tackler (Heaslip is not a bad boy 8 in all respect), at the most he should have been warming the bench and brought on when players tire and play is broken up.
Lydiate - The bench is the wrong call, he is not an impact player and this smacks of Gatland being too conservative and using him to close down the game after 60 mins. Its going to be wet and windy we needed a tackling machine to strangle the life out of the Ozzie 6, 8, and 9 channels, Croft cant do that Lydiate can.
Warburton - I really feel for this guy, under pressure as the captain is hard enough, but now will go into the match knowing that he will be doing the majority of the big tackles and the broken play stoppages

I am not even going to start on the bench coverage Lydiate is a specialist 6, if Warbs gets injured then we have no cover for 8 (or 7 really). Totally nuts... is SOB injured?

I hope I am wrong but I fear this has all the hallmarks of a 2010-2012 Welsh strategy (against Oz)and you know what those results have been

Really hope I am incorrect

by flyhalffactory Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:12 pm

daiglass63 wrote:Rugger,

You obviously know very little about the game do you?

Give us your pearls of wisdom then laddy

Don't just knock on the door and run away giggling

by daiglass63 Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:17 pm

Apologies for the comment re Rugger.

Should have pointed out that the reason there are so few Scottish players on tour is that they are just not as good as the players selected. We Welsh have experienced the same thing in the past, thinking that our players were the amongst the best in the NH. Only to be proved wrong.

Nothing wrong with supporting you countries players but in a the future you will come to realise that they just aren't good enough at the moment.

Lions to win by 12 by the way.

Come on the LIONS.

by flyhalffactory Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:20 pm

daiglass63 wrote:Apologies for the comment re Rugger.

Should have pointed out that the reason there are so few Scottish players on tour is that they are just not as good as the players selected. We Welsh have experienced the same thing in the past, thinking that our players were the amongst the best in the NH. Only to be proved wrong.

Nothing wrong with supporting you countries players but in a the future you will come to realise that they just aren't good enough at the moment.

Lions to win by 12 by the way.

Come on the LIONS.

Where have you seen on this post that anybody has said there is not enough Scottish players on tour......... personal attack removed

This is nothing about supporting preferred players its about selecting the right players for the next match

by daiglass63 Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:25 pm

Now who's resorting to insults.

Really sad.

by maestegmafia Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:31 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My thought on the test team :

My biggest concern is it is still so bish bash bosh. Gatland has learned nothing from his encounters with Australia in the past.

I hope the Lions win but my guess is Australia by 7. We can win the series but it'll start with Victory in the 2nd test when Gatland realises that we'll need more than 16st wingers to win these games..

Agree with you mate.

This has all the shades of a Welsh strategy, I haven't a lot of confidence in Mr G when it comes to playing against SH teams particularly OZ. He has been forced to select the best option at 12 (and probably the best tour player so far) and I am convinced if Roberts had been fit (and Manu) then Davies would have been sitting in his blazer watching from the stands.
FB
Hogg - Gatland has all but destroyed this youngsters confidence, coming into the tour off a very good season as FB, he has ended up representing the Lions as a 10 with a brand new and dysfunctional team around him contributing to our first loss of the tour. Was considered to be the utility back coverage and now not even in the test 23, somehow I could see this coming.

WINGS
Maitland - I was hoping the he would aspire to all the potential we all said he would....... but saddens me to say he has been disappointing.
Cuthbert - A try machine you can't doubt that and gives 100% however he had a dire defensive tour and in my mind Zebo did enough to start

HALFBACKS
Youngs - Had a mare but then again they all did, but Murray hasn't been that impressive so 50/50 call

THE ENGINE ROOM
Corbisiero - I believe Gatland has got it right here, its going to wet and slippery and Corbs is the better scrummager than Vunipola, and probably better in the lineout broken play. Close call though.
Hibbard - IMHO has been very poor and doesn't deserve a test 23 slot, his technique is getting worse, and I fear he will be popping up under pressure in the scrum. I can feel penalties coming against us in the last 20 mins.
Gray - AWJ pulled a massive performance out of the bag and all due respects he narrowly deserved the test jersey, but Gray did enough to get in the 23 amazingly poor call.

THE BACKROW
Croft - great going (wing) forward player, fantastic if its going to be a sunny day with quick accelerators like Hogg Maitland and Zebo, unfortunately its not going to be either. Its going to be wet and we will have Juggernauts like North and Cuthbert on the flanks. More importantly he will be the second passive player/tackler (Heaslip is not a bad boy 8 in all respect), at the most he should have been warming the bench and brought on when players tire and play is broken up.
Lydiate - The bench is the wrong call, he is not an impact player and this smacks of Gatland being too conservative and using him to close down the game after 60 mins. Its going to be wet and windy we needed a tackling machine to strangle the life out of the Ozzie 6, 8, and 9 channels, Croft cant do that Lydiate can.
Warburton - I really feel for this guy, under pressure as the captain is hard enough, but now will go into the match knowing that he will be doing the majority of the big tackles and the broken play stoppages

I am not even going to start on the bench coverage Lydiate is a specialist 6, if Warbs gets injured then we have no cover for 8 (or 7 really). Totally nuts... is SOB injured?

I hope I am wrong but I fear this has all the hallmarks of a 2010-2012 Welsh strategy (against Oz)and you know what those results have been

Really hope I am incorrect

Some very valid points and I dont doubt everyone has similar fears. Though with all explanations read it could easily be said that there is a flip side to the coin.

Particularly when talking about the bench strategy. The team looks to me like we are going out to punish their scrum, contain their backrow and look to close the game out with the subs bench.

As I said earlier, or somewhere else, Ben Youngs is a very skillfull technician a great game manager. If we can take a lead then he is a good man to keep the Bazzers contained. Parling and Lydiate too, both good line out players, both strong tacklers.

If we can break in to a lead, them out bench could add serious percetage rugby potential where we can let sexton and Youngs play the percentage game well enough to close the game out.

by Geordie Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:44 pm

Wow just seen Will Genia benches...170kg thats impressive for a 5'8 13st scrummie....

by maestegmafia Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Wow just seen Will Genia benches...170kg thats impressive for a 5'8 13st scrummie....

Don't worry mate, George North benches two JCBs held together by steel girders and does over fifty reps a minute.

by flyhalffactory Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:47 pm

daiglass63 wrote:Now who's resorting to insults.

Really sad.

Apologies I'll take that back, but yet again a decent thread is undone by a post that is inflammatory and insinuates something that is not in the thread. Just so damn annoying

by flyhalffactory Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow just seen Will Genia benches...170kg thats impressive for a 5'8 13st scrummie....

Geordie mate, are you out there?

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:13 pm

The Lions have always known Genia is the principal threat in this Aussie side, and a true world class player (and not in the Welsh sense of the phase Wink

)

I hope and expect that the Lions will have a plan for dealing with him and keeping him quiet. His game management is very good, but it's his line breaks that worry me the most. If a free kick is award against the Lions, or he has quick ruck ball, Phillips (or if Phillips is otherwise occupied on the floor, someone like Tom Youngs), needs to keep an eagle eye.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:34 pm

daiglass63 wrote:Rugger,

You obviously know very little about the game do you?

Love it, 16 posts and I'm getting comments like this.

I have justified my comments in my post, unlike Ruby suggests I won't be unleashing any fury. My opinion differs from yours daiglass but that doesn't mean I know little about the game of rugby.

I feel that Gatland has made errors from the start of the tour.

My comments I feel are valid, since you are new here I suggest you try to counter my comments with arguments of your own instead of coming out with comments like the one I quoted above.

by lostinwales Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:34 pm

Interesting discussion on Lydiate on Demented mole. Points out that although he is an exceptional tackler - that really is pretty much all he does. yes its a crucial role, not least in the set up and tactics that Wales uses - but he does hardly anything else. Stats for line outs shows he takes on average one ball every other game.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:38 pm

I think SOB would have been better bench cover. At a push he can cover the whole backrow. Lydiate is exclusively a 6.

I know I'm not the only one who thinks Maitland is a weird call.

by BlueNote Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:40 pm

FHF, you make some fair points, but it lost a bit of credibility for me when you said Hibbard shouldn't be in the 23. There is no way on earth Rory Best could be considered for the 23 after Tuesday; when Hibbard came on things improved massively. I say that as a fan of RB, he just has massive problems at the moment.

As for Gray, I would have been perfectly happy to see him in, but I don't think you can say AWJ or Parling doesn't deserve to be there. Parling has made a real impact each time he's come on, and AWJ was outstanding last weekend. It is one area where we have some real depth.

I would have Hogg on the bench, myself.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:41 pm

The key thing about Lydiate though is his tackling style. He leads the defensive rush and tackles low and hard, so what the stats won't tell you is that his tackles, more often than others, lead to turnovers, or at the very least slow ball for the opposition, and their players need to get back behind the advantage line to secure the ball.

So yes, the stats don't have him down as a great ball carrier, line-out operator or distributor, but what he does do (i.e. tackle ferociously) he does to an exception standard, which allows others in the back row to shine by turning over ball.

Nevertheless, I think his function in the context of this fixture and the opposition can be legitimately questioned. Australia don't have big ball carriers and they don't tend to run predictable phases at the opposition defence, so I fear his big strength may be slightly negated here (in a way that it wouldn't be against say South Africa). I think SOB must have been very close to selection here, but Gatland clearly knows what he's looking for.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:42 pm

I wouldn't say AWJ doesn't deserve to be there. He was fanastic on Saturday, but Gray has performed really well all tour, even in the disaster on Tuesday he played pretty well.

Either AWJ or Gray to start would be acceptable, both would have made more of an impact from the bench than Parling. The 3 locks all seem to have the same strengths. Even Evans on the bench IMO would have been a better call than Parling.

by Geordie Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:53 pm

Yes im here Yahoo

by glamorganalun Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:03 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My thought on the test team :

My biggest concern is it is still so bish bash bosh. Gatland has learned nothing from his encounters with Australia in the past.

I hope the Lions win but my guess is Australia by 7. We can win the series but it'll start with Victory in the 2nd test when Gatland realises that we'll need more than 16st wingers to win these games..

Agree with you mate.

This has all the shades of a Welsh strategy, I haven't a lot of confidence in Mr G when it comes to playing against SH teams particularly OZ. He has been forced to select the best option at 12 (and probably the best tour player so far) and I am convinced if Roberts had been fit (and Manu) then Davies would have been sitting in his blazer watching from the stands.
FB
Hogg - Gatland has all but destroyed this youngsters confidence, coming into the tour off a very good season as FB, he has ended up representing the Lions as a 10 with a brand new and dysfunctional team around him contributing to our first loss of the tour. Was considered to be the utility back coverage and now not even in the test 23, somehow I could see this coming.

WINGS
Maitland - I was hoping the he would aspire to all the potential we all said he would....... but saddens me to say he has been disappointing.
Cuthbert - A try machine you can't doubt that and gives 100% however he had a dire defensive tour and in my mind Zebo did enough to start

HALFBACKS
Youngs - Had a mare but then again they all did, but Murray hasn't been that impressive so 50/50 call

THE ENGINE ROOM
Corbisiero - I believe Gatland has got it right here, its going to wet and slippery and Corbs is the better scrummager than Vunipola, and probably better in the lineout broken play. Close call though.
Hibbard - IMHO has been very poor and doesn't deserve a test 23 slot, his technique is getting worse, and I fear he will be popping up under pressure in the scrum. I can feel penalties coming against us in the last 20 mins.
Gray - AWJ pulled a massive performance out of the bag and all due respects he narrowly deserved the test jersey, but Gray did enough to get in the 23 amazingly poor call.

THE BACKROW
Croft - great going (wing) forward player, fantastic if its going to be a sunny day with quick accelerators like Hogg Maitland and Zebo, unfortunately its not going to be either. Its going to be wet and we will have Juggernauts like North and Cuthbert on the flanks. More importantly he will be the second passive player/tackler (Heaslip is not a bad boy 8 in all respect), at the most he should have been warming the bench and brought on when players tire and play is broken up.
Lydiate - The bench is the wrong call, he is not an impact player and this smacks of Gatland being too conservative and using him to close down the game after 60 mins. Its going to be wet and windy we needed a tackling machine to strangle the life out of the Ozzie 6, 8, and 9 channels, Croft cant do that Lydiate can.
Warburton - I really feel for this guy, under pressure as the captain is hard enough, but now will go into the match knowing that he will be doing the majority of the big tackles and the broken play stoppages

I am not even going to start on the bench coverage Lydiate is a specialist 6, if Warbs gets injured then we have no cover for 8 (or 7 really). Totally nuts... is SOB injured?

I hope I am wrong but I fear this has all the hallmarks of a 2010-2012 Welsh strategy (against Oz)and you know what those results have been

Really hope I am incorrect
Fly
Agree with points, you understand the way Gatland has treated wales players like Peel R Jones Delve and Hook in fact Gatland has done Hogg the same way as Hook

Good analysis

by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:26 pm

I really do think a lot of posters on here underestimate Tom Croft. His performances on this tour haven't lacked physicality in the slightest, and he finished the season in fantastic form and has carried that into this tour. I certainly don't think Warburton will be stuck "doing the majority of the big tackles".

by JmD Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:43 pm

AWJ deserves his spot quite simply because he has been a stand out performer. His ball carrying and lineout work have both been outstanding. Parling is there because every time he has come off the bench he has made an impact. He single handedly bossed the lineout when he came on against the Brumbies. For all of Gray's height and athleticism, he only seemed to wake up for the last 5-10 minutes of the match when he stole 2 opposition lineouts. Him and Evans will have taken some of the blame for the setpiece fiasco, if memory serves Best made 3 bad throws but the rest of the time our jumpers were just losing one on ones in the air, which isn't good enough.

by daiglass63 Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:52 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I really do think a lot of posters on here underestimate Tom Croft. His performances on this tour haven't lacked physicality in the slightest, and he finished the season in fantastic form and has carried that into this tour. I certainly don't think Warburton will be stuck "doing the majority of the big tackles".

Quite agree.

I have no worries about Croft, the guy adds another dimension to the back row. I have watched him closely in the games he has played and he certainly puts a shift in.

I'm really excited to see how the back row performs tomorrow.

by MarcusHalberstram Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:21 pm

There seem to be some weird rumours flying around about the weather that must have come from nothing more than Chinese whispers. Everyone's banging on about it being wet and rainy - clearly you haven't actually looked at the forecast - not a cloud predicted in the sky for the next week! And the temp is much the same as it is here in the UK - around 18-20C. Should be perfect conditions!

by jelly Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:45 pm

I think that stems from Gatland saying in his press conference that part of the reason for selecting Corbisiero was due to likely showers. I don't think anybody has bothered to check, assuming that the Lions' management would have done their homework, ignoring the fact that nobody in this country seems to be able to predict what the weather will do more than about 2 hours ahead, let alone 2 days.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:46 pm

jelly wrote:I think that stems from Gatland saying in his press conference that part of the reason for selecting Corbisiero was due to likely showers. I don't think anybody has bothered to check, assuming that the Lions' management would have done their homework, ignoring the fact that nobody in this country seems to be able to predict what the weather will do more than about 2 hours ahead, let alone 2 days.

North Aus is a bit more predictable than the South or the UK though, right?

by ChequeredJersey Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:48 pm

The weather websites I can find all say, and 1 quote, 0% chance of rain...

by ChequeredJersey Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:11 pm

A scary reminder of how a young, talented player with INT experience but only recently moved to Flyhalf facing the Lions can play out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQSc1sp4dE

Let's not take O'Connor lightly

by Cadair Idris Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:17 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:The key thing about Lydiate though is his tackling style. He leads the defensive rush and tackles low and hard, so what the stats won't tell you is that his tackles, more often than others, lead to turnovers, or at the very least slow ball for the opposition, and their players need to get back behind the advantage line to secure the ball.

So yes, the stats don't have him down as a great ball carrier, line-out operator or distributor, but what he does do (i.e. tackle ferociously) he does to an exception standard, which allows others in the back row to shine by turning over ball.

Nevertheless, I think his function in the context of this fixture and the opposition can be legitimately questioned. Australia don't have big ball carriers and they don't tend to run predictable phases at the opposition defence, so I fear his big strength may be slightly negated here (in a way that it wouldn't be against say South Africa). I think SOB must have been very close to selection here, but Gatland clearly knows what he's looking for.

Spot on description of what Lydiate offers, and why simple tackle count stats (good though his always are) and frankly rather limited skillset don't give the full picture. If he had played more in recent months Gatland would have been sorely tempted to pick him for exactly the reasons FES says. As it is I just don't think he's had enough game time to start such an important match and I agree with others that he's an odd selection on the bench ahead of SOB. The 6 spot is the hardest decision of all in this team. If it all clicks and we're on the front foot our back row could run riot but I am concerned that we will suffer at the breakdown and that the Warburton, Heaslip and Croft combination might not work(great qualities though they all have). Hopefully those fears will prove unfounded and they'll all get their hands dirty.

by lostinwales Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:20 pm

On the demented mole site someone had referred to Lydiate being the anti-Croft.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:21 pm

People forget they have Berrick Barnes at 15 and Chrisian Lealiifano at 12.

AUS are fielding 2 flyhalves and one genuine second five-eigth. O'Connor won't have any problems.

The Lions are fielding Jonny Sexton only. Halfpenny has a decent boot but doesn't get involved as much.

I would say their is more pressure on Sexton then O'Connor.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:26 pm

Lydiate at his best would have pushed for a starting place against AUS and probably would be 1st choice vs. a tougher outfit like NZ or SA.... but its a big call to put him in on the bench over O'Brien.

If we lose Warburton we're in trouble.

To be honest given his surprise inclusion Gatland wouldn't have picked him bar to play in the tests. There was no point in taking him to play in the dirt- tracker matches.

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