Australia vs British and Irish Lions - 22nd June : TEST 1 BUILDUP

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, it's only a week to go before the first Lions test for 4 years.

Gatland has a host of injuries and a game against the Brumbies to manoeuvre while deciding the 23 players who will take to the pitch next Saturday.

Christian Wade and Brad Barritt have both been called up to cover for injury concerns over Jamie Roberts, Manu Tuilagi, Tommy Bowe and George North

My team for Saturday

1. Maku Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Tom Croft
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. George North (Simon Zebo)
12. Jonathan Davies
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Richard Hibbard
17. Alex Corbisiero
18. Dan Cole
19. Richie Gray
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell
23. Manu Tuilagi/Stuart Hogg

Thoughts?

by andy powells minder Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:17 am

We need to do a Rene Ranger to him early on, see if he's fully recovered. You can be sure the Ozzies would be thinking the same if the boot was on the other foot

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:58 am

Lots of pressure on Douglas, LLF and Mowen to deliver. The advantage that Deans has is that all of these guys are in great form for their franchises. In LLF, they have the highest percentage Aussie goalkicker in the S15 so we'd better not think we can just give penalties away.

I would be so much more happy with Tips or Croft included in our team. I don't think that I've ever seen a loose forward with better footspeed than Michael Hooper. One of the few quicker than Croft, be in no doubt.

by OzT Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:26 am

Yip at last I am getting excited about the 1st test. Nothing constructive or technical to add, just I think it'll be a good game, and I think the Wallabies will win it. Haven't seen the Lions squad, but I think that's as good a Wallabies squad as can be at the mo.

There, nailed my colours to the mast Smile

by RubyGuby Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:07 pm

Spoke to Gats last night and he was a bit pixxed off - Here it is for Sat.

1. Corbisiero
2. Hibbard
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Tom Croft
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. George North
12. Jonathan Davies
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Youngs
17. V'polo
18. Dan Cole
19. Richie Gray
20. Jamie Heaslip
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell:thumbsup:
23. Manu Tuilagi

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:36 pm

Good man Rubs, almost had it picked on the other thread.

2 english, 3 irish and the tolken scotsman on the bench. That should keep people happy.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:46 pm

If there are ten Welsh in the starting line-up, would that be a Lions record for Wales?

I know England had eleven starters in 1993, and there was probably more single-team domination in the very early years, before all the unions had signed up to the idea.

In the modern era, though, ten Welsh sounds more than even the dominant teams of the seventies managed.

by GunsGerms Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:50 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:If there are ten Welsh in the starting line-up, would that be a Lions record for Wales?

I know England had eleven starters in 1993, and there was probably more single-team domination in the very early years, before all the unions had signed up to the idea.

In the modern era, though, ten Welsh sounds more than even the dominant teams of the seventies managed.

I would be very surprised if there was 10 Welsh in the starting line up.
Could be up to 8 though.

1. Vunap
2. Youngs
3. Jones
4. POC
5. AWJ/Gray
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip
9. Philips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Davies
13. BOD
14. Zebo
15 1/2p

by fa0019 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:52 pm

If they do play 10 welshmen in the starting lineup... the lions will lose 3 zip. I can't see more than 7 max, anything more and its Gatland playing to his comfort zone.

by glamorganalun Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:55 pm

Garland must want to keep his Wales job Shame Bowe is out he has a good understanding with Sexton and BOD

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:57 pm

Which are the 3 people think won't make it?

Faletau, Hibbard and Cuthbert are the only question marks for me. If Croft gets the nod at 6 then it makes sense to pick Faletau over Heaslip.

The team makes sense to me, although I think Sean O'Brien is unlucky if he misses out

by fa0019 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:06 pm

AW Jones and Davies had one good game. The rest of the time they've been average/poor.

Davies though is in by default, i.e. Roberts and Tuilagi are both unfit so that is an explainable choice.

AW Jones just doesn't do it for me.... very poor in 09, poor up till last Saturday, everyone always talks him up but come the big time he's always quiet... Gray on the other hand has performed throughout the whole series. I think he will have his hands full with Douglas.

Hibbard... Steve Thompson mark -1. A little less physical, an even worse thrower of the ball (difficult to at first imagine).

Cuthbert.... Ioane will tear him to pieces. I'd rather take a streetsmart Zebo and even Maitland is preferred.

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:18 pm

I'm not in total disagreement but for me AWJ has outperformed Gray over the course of this tour so is a fair shout.

None of the Hookers have stood out but it makes sense to start with Hibbard as Youngs brings more dynamism off the bench. Hibbard is the better scrummager which is obviously were the Lions are targetting. Best just hasn't performed well enough and was up against anyways...

Cuthbert has performed better than Maitland. Zebo probably would be a fair shout but a gamble as he has only recently joined the squad and hasn't put in 80 min yet.

Davies is the only real option at 12 and in fairness his last performances was the best of any centre so far on tour.

by munkian Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:33 pm

JD2 hasn't had a bad game so far... and surely Gatland should play the best inform yet balanced squad regardless of nationality ?

by fa0019 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:34 pm

munkian... I don't think there is anyone else regardless.

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:50 pm

It's tough. I think that Gray has actually performed better in aggregate (i.e. over the course of all the matches that he's played in) than AWJ but there's no denying that the Welshman has had the best single game and most complete performance over any lock that is currently touring. I think that Gray could be a devastating substitute if brought on with 25-30 to go, so I would start with AWJ/POC.

With the centres, I think that the real issue is whether you chance a half fit Tualagi over a fully fit and in-form JDII. I'm not sure that I would chance Tualagi unless I thought he can convince the management that he's at least 90% fit. Davies is a young man and a much less fashionable choice than Tualagi (a very important thing on these boards, it seems) but he has almost 40 caps for Wales and I think is ready to step up to a starting berth. He's also 16 stone plus so I'm not worried that he's lacking 'impact'. Centres should be link players and he's certainly that.

I'm not going to get into the Cuthbert debate because I'm bored to death with the cliches thrown around about wingers. One thing is for sure - I would not pick Simon Zebo with his 6 caps and 2 tries when I could choose Cuthbert who has three times as many caps and five times as many tries. Cuthbert has disappointed me given what we know he is capable of but in the absence of a watertight case for Maitland (and the MaitHaters have made themselves extremely vocal on these boards) I would plump for Cuthbert given his familiarity with the rest of the back three.

It's the backs on the bench that I find really hard. Once you've added Youngs and Farrell, then I'm struggling. Tualagi may provide more of an impact, but Hogg and 36 are more versatile and could cover more positions if we get an injury to a wing or full back.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:54 pm

If it's Cuthbert, he has to give Ioane a torrid time physically, I suspect he's come back from injury a week too early but has given himself the all-clear because he wants to play the Lions so desperately. If this is the case, he will miss tackles if you batter him

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:58 pm

The bottom line is the backline more or less picks itself given the injuries and the fact that a few people haven't really thrown their hands up.

The pack is a bit more debateable with a few 50/50 calls there but in this instance Gatland is going to stick to proven units.

The non welsh guys would have known they needed to really produce something special to force their way in and in fairness there probably hasn't been enough standout performances, bar in the backrow maybe, to give Gats too many headaches...

by wales606 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:37 pm

I feel sorry for Ken Owens for getting injured

At the moment, I would have him in the top 2 hookers on tour, and probably would be my bench option to replace Youngs in the second half.

If Best gets near the test teams we are in trouble

Hibbard has yet to really produce regional form on the international scene and hasn't had the best Lions tours (it is tough for hookers getting used to playing with new locks and calls)

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:21 pm

Irish Radio are saying this is what's coming up:

1: Vunipola
2: Youngs
3: Jones
4: AW Jones
5: O'Connell
6: Croft
7: Warburton
8: Heaslip
9: Phillips
10: Sexton
11: North
12: Davies
13: O'Driscoll
14: Cuthbert
15: Halfpenny

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:26 pm

Pretty much as expected. Not sure Mako and Youngs will enjoy Alexander and Moore much, hopefully Jones can help them out a bit. It does mean that our replacement front rows should have a big advantage against the Aussie ones in the scrum

by fa0019 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:28 pm

Who has texted their mum to say they're in the team??? Sexton perhaps?

by wales606 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:30 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Irish Radio are saying this is what's coming up:

1: Vunipola
2: Youngs
3: Jones
4: AW Jones
5: O'Connell
6: Croft
7: Warburton
8: Heaslip
9: Phillips
10: Sexton
11: North
12: Davies
13: O'Driscoll
14: Cuthbert
15: Halfpenny

Pretty much as expected

by fa0019 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:40 pm

Amazing to think that without injury to other hookers, Tom Youngs is the first choice hooker for the Lions and 2 years ago was playing 2nd division rugby in Nottingham (I think) as a recent convert to the position.

Well done Tom. Well observed Meyer.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Jun 2013, 7:25 pm

My only tinker to that team would be Faletau at 8 as I think he would compliment Croft and Warburton better but thats a personal opinion.

by maestegmafia Wed 19 Jun 2013, 7:49 pm

fa0019 wrote:munkian... I don't think there is anyone else regardless.

You don't think Davies has playing well this tour?

What on earth have you not been watching?

by maestegmafia Wed 19 Jun 2013, 7:50 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:My only tinker to that team would be Faletau at 8 as I think he would compliment Croft and Warburton better but thats a personal opinion.

I worry having Croft in. He does so little work. I agree that they would need a lad like Faletau to graft if Croft is selected.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Jun 2013, 7:54 pm

Thats why I selected Faletau, I have said all along that Croft and Heaslip play it a bit looser so you have to counter attack that with Lydiate and Fatetau

by Manu's Boxing Coach Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:04 pm

maestegma wrote:
I worry having Croft in. He does so little work. I agree that they would need a lad like Faletau to graft if Croft is selected.

It seems just because Croft works in the wide areas as well all other parts of the field he is described as "lazy" and that he does so little work. This board does like to stick to their ill-informed initial perception of players. Croft does work at the breakdown and graft but some posters seem to ignore this and claim he doesnt just because he works in wider areas as well.

by Cyril Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:07 pm

Croft has been getting plaudits in the media for his workrate at the breakdown as well as his more 'noticable' work out wide.

Still, I guess that must be the 'English' media spinning, eh?

Really hope Croft is in at 6. Most seem to think he will be.

by maestegmafia Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:08 pm

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
maestegma wrote:
I worry having Croft in. He does so little work. I agree that they would need a lad like Faletau to graft if Croft is selected.

It seems just because Croft works in the wide areas as well all other parts of the field he is described as "lazy" and that he does so little work. This board does like to stick to their ill-informed initial perception of players. Croft does work at the breakdown and graft but some posters seem to ignore this and claim he doesnt just because he works in wider areas as well.

no the opinions are formed by people watching Croft play, he spends too long not doing the job of an blindside flanker. I do not think his input benefits the team enough for him to not be considered a luxury.

by Cyril Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:10 pm

Blimey, it's like Leicester, England and the Lions set-up have no idea about coaching.

Luckily posters on here can show them the way.

Send Croft home immediately.

[/sarcasm]

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:10 pm

He will be, he is great on the poach at the lineout too and together with POC (add in AWJ and Warbs and Heaslip on our own ball) he will neutralise the Aussies here. As territory is one area we should have an advantage with JOC at 10 vs Sexton, we should try and make the lineout count

by Manu's Boxing Coach Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:13 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
maestegma wrote:
I worry having Croft in. He does so little work. I agree that they would need a lad like Faletau to graft if Croft is selected.

It seems just because Croft works in the wide areas as well all other parts of the field he is described as "lazy" and that he does so little work. This board does like to stick to their ill-informed initial perception of players. Croft does work at the breakdown and graft but some posters seem to ignore this and claim he doesnt just because he works in wider areas as well.

no the opinions are formed by people watching Croft play, he spends too long not doing the job of an blindside flanker. I do not think his input benefits the team enough for him to not be considered a luxury.

I also dont understand how he is called a "luxury" as though he is a nice player to have but a bit decadent. Since when did being able to be excellent at the lineout, in support play, making cover tackles, hitting rucks and also having the try scoring potential like no other back rower be not enough input?

by maestegmafia Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:46 pm

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
maestegma wrote:
I worry having Croft in. He does so little work. I agree that they would need a lad like Faletau to graft if Croft is selected.

It seems just because Croft works in the wide areas as well all other parts of the field he is described as "lazy" and that he does so little work. This board does like to stick to their ill-informed initial perception of players. Croft does work at the breakdown and graft but some posters seem to ignore this and claim he doesnt just because he works in wider areas as well.

no the opinions are formed by people watching Croft play, he spends too long not doing the job of an blindside flanker. I do not think his input benefits the team enough for him to not be considered a luxury.

I also dont understand how he is called a "luxury" as though he is a nice player to have but a bit decadent. Since when did being able to be excellent at the lineout, in support play, making cover tackles, hitting rucks and also having the try scoring potential like no other back rower be not enough input?

You're confused. You just listed a number of things Croft doesn't do.

by Taylorman Thu 20 Jun 2013, 12:34 am

Whats happened to Tipuric?

by glamorganalun Thu 20 Jun 2013, 12:36 am

For me Croft is a one off "6" he very tall, athletic, fast, good line out player and good hands. If the Lions are well on top of the opposition he looks very good and a good choice.

I think some including myself, worry about his tight play and support to the breakdown could give Aus an advantage losing the breakdowns. Croft reminds me of Andy Powell (but with more brains) likes doing the visible aspects of the game and let other do the battling for the ball. Thinking back to the Wales/England game I did not know he was playing until he dropped a rubbish kick at the end of the match when he was playing a deep wing (he was playing 6), what was he doing there, if he was 8 maybe. What I worry about is the Lions back row could be blown away just like England were with Croft at 6 despite Robshaw working is nuts off.

Don't get me wrong he is and asset to the ream but maybe off the bench or second test start if the pack dominates.

by broadlandboy Thu 20 Jun 2013, 12:48 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
maestegma wrote:
I worry having Croft in. He does so little work. I agree that they would need a lad like Faletau to graft if Croft is selected.

It seems just because Croft works in the wide areas as well all other parts of the field he is described as "lazy" and that he does so little work. This board does like to stick to their ill-informed initial perception of players. Croft does work at the breakdown and graft but some posters seem to ignore this and claim he doesnt just because he works in wider areas as well.

no the opinions are formed by people watching Croft play, he spends too long not doing the job of an blindside flanker. I do not think his input benefits the team enough for him to not be considered a luxury.

I also dont understand how he is called a "luxury" as though he is a nice player to have but a bit decadent. Since when did being able to be excellent at the lineout, in support play, making cover tackles, hitting rucks and also having the try scoring potential like no other back rower be not enough input?

You're confused. You just listed a number of things Croft doesn't do.

Which of those doesn't Croft do?

by Artful_Dodger Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:09 am

"Making cover tackles" is actually a clever way of saying that Croft doesn't make huge number of tackles every game which is really the bread and butter work of a blindside. As for hitting rucks.....he really doesn't as he's always in the wide channels looking for space and often not remotely close to the breakdown regardless of which team is in possession. As always say about Croft - good athlete but not much of a blindside.

by broadlandboy Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:14 am

In your opinion. True he is not a traditional blindside, because of his athletic ability he is able to do more than other blindside can. That is why picking a backrow is about balance. A lot of top coaches seem willing to have Croft in their backrow so he must give something. Do you think coaches would keep picking him if he was not doing what they wanted him to?

by flyhalffactory Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:27 am

broadlandboy wrote:In your opinion. True he is not a traditional blindside, because of his athletic ability he is able to do more than other blindside can. That is why picking a backrow is about balance. A lot of top coaches seem willing to have Croft in their backrow so he must give something. Do you think coaches would keep picking him if he was not doing what they wanted him to?

So tell me

Healslip is a speedy and rather lightweight 8
Faletau is a passive tackler and rather lightweight 8

Warburton is always best when working in tandem with a blindside who make makes tackles and keeps the player on the floor so he (Warburton) can initiate the turnover 7
Tipuric is a speedy and rather lightweight 7

So to balance the backrow would Croft be the guy to have at Blindside?

by flyhalffactory Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:26 am

HERE'S THE TEAM FOLKS

15 Halfpenny (Wales),
14 Cuthbert (Wales),
13 O'Driscoll (Ireland),
12 Davies (Wales),
11 North (Wales),
10 Sexton (Ireland),
9 Phillips (Wales);
8 Heaslip (Ireland)
7. Warburton (Wales Capt)
6. Croft (England)
5. O'Connell (Ireland),
4 Wyn Jones (Wales),
3 A Jones (Wales),
2. T Youngs (England),
1. Corbisiero (England),

Replacements:
16. Hibbard (Wales),
17. M Vunipola (England),
18. Cole (England),
19. Parling (England),
20. Lydiate (Wales),
21. B Youngs (England),
22. Farrell (England),
23. Maitland (Scotland).

Overall that's about as expected
10 Welsh
8 English
4 Irish
1 Scot

Surprises
Vunipola not starting
Hibbard actually in the 23

Disappointments
Hogg, Gray, Tipuric, Faletau all played themselves out of the test 23 but all could be have been in with a chance.

Key Areas
Breakdown
I think the inclusion of two relative lightweights in Healsip and Croft will leave Warburton with a mammoth task in containing and winning turnovers and at the breakdown
Set-piece
Tom Youngs accuracy in the line-out is vital, as is POC calling, and Croft as the 3rd lineout target
Midfield
Davies and BOD haven't played alongside each other yet although this has always been my preferred combo
The North God
Apparently he has been looking awesome in training the last few days - Lets hope so.

Key Player
Mike Phillips - His service could either win or lose this first test.

Overall a decent test 23

ROOOOOOAR

by **George Carlin** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 6:47 am

You can take your pick with the marginal calls - I think that a lot depends on what your substitution strategy is going to be.

The first thing to say is congratulations to Tom Youngs. What a massive success story that is and a fillup to anyone who has only ever seen themselves play in one position. Pays to listen to your coaches sometimes. Obviously his accurate throwing and big tackle count got him there. I think that Hibbard would be a big impact sub too so I can understand this decision.

Next, I am happy with Corbs providing a scrum anchor, leaving Vuni to come on when players are flagging and start to run through them. It maximises his assets and minimises his deficiencies. Corbs was always going to get the shirt with Rowntree there - the nature of his call-up told us that immediately.

Am fine with Warbs starting but I have a big problem with Lydiate on the bench which simply is not justifiable over Tipuric. If it was someone like Ryan Jones who offers flexibility across a number of different positions, then I would understand it, but Lydiate does not. It's a defensive rather than an offensive selection and it does not provide us with a different tactical option if we're losing at the breakdown (the chances of which are slightly increased without Faletau's work rate), which I think is a fairly big mistake.

I have no problem with Croft. I am content he did enough in the other games and we will need his speed against Hooper and the extra lineout option that he offers. However, see note above about Tips missing.

Davies deserves his shot and is there on merit. I also don't understand people being worried about him playing 12. Unless I'm going mad I've seen him there a couple of times for the Scarlets this past season. Tualagi has vanished from the 23 entirely. I can only assume that the shoulder just isn't right.

Wings are fine for me - I just hope that nobody is being rushed back from injury early. Must be devastating for a player to break down during a match like this. I have faith in James Robson though - he's said 'no' to much fiercer coaches than Gatland before.

The bench I have some issues with, though. As I mentioned, from a tactical perspective and also based on form over the past fortnight, I just don't understand why Lydiate is there instead of Tipuric. Does Gats assume that we'll be ahead with 20 to go and we just need to maintain a defensive line? It's the only reason I can think of. Deans now has the stronger bench and that annoys me, because it needn't be the case.

Parling over Gray is actually the biggest shock of the 23 for me and based on the aggregate form of each of them over the past fortnight, I really don't understand it. Gray offers more of an all round game and athleticism is going to be really important against big lumps like Mowen and Douglas as we have to move them around. I just see what Parling offers in preference other than lineour solidity. Is that the reason? Does Gats think that O'Connell may not last the whole match and the set piece should be the priority? It's all I can think of.

What's done is done. Gatland has put his faith in his Welsh team. If it works, he'll be lauded. If it doesn't, he will inevitably be accused of wearing blinkers. But that's the job.

Does that Lions 23 have enough to beat the Wallabies? I think so, but (as will always be the case with something this subjective), I don't think that he's given us every chance. Close, but not quite. We can target the back row - Mowen will be key as he'll need to play both 6 and 8 in this game (when Palu comes off after an hour as he always does, and he's carrying a knee injury), bearing in mind that Simmons can only cover lock and Gill cannot play 8. It's a lot of pressure on a debutant and Heaslip and Warbuton need to be all over him.

Will be glued to the big screen.

by wales606 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 8:43 am

If Roberts or Gethin Jenkins had been fit, the Cardiff Blues could have had the largest contingent of players in the starting XV

So why can't we win anything?

by bedfordwelsh Thu 20 Jun 2013, 8:46 am

George,

I am surprised about Lydiate on the bench but not over Tipuric instead over SOB.

Tipuric like Lydiate is known as being a specialist in one position though Lydiate has played 7 for Wales once before.

SOB for me would have been the better bench choice as he covers 6,7 and 8

by Guest Thu 20 Jun 2013, 8:47 am

George Carlin wrote:You can take your pick with the marginal calls - I think that a lot depends on what your substitution strategy is going to be.

The first thing to say is congratulations to Tom Youngs. What a massive success story that is and a fillup to anyone who has only ever seen themselves play in one position. Pays to listen to your coaches sometimes. Obviously his accurate throwing and big tackle count got him there. I think that Hibbard would be a big impact sub too so I can understand this decision.

Next, I am happy with Corbs providing a scrum anchor, leaving Vuni to come on when players are flagging and start to run through them. It maximises his assets and minimises his deficiencies. Corbs was always going to get the shirt with Rowntree there - the nature of his call-up told us that immediately.

Am fine with Warbs starting but I have a big problem with Lydiate on the bench which simply is not justifiable over Tipuric. If it was someone like Ryan Jones who offers flexibility across a number of different positions, then I would understand it, but Lydiate does not. It's a defensive rather than an offensive selection and it does not provide us with a different tactical option if we're losing at the breakdown (the chances of which are slightly increased without Faletau's work rate), which I think is a fairly big mistake.

I have no problem with Croft. I am content he did enough in the other games and we will need his speed against Hooper and the extra lineout option that he offers. However, see note above about Tips missing.

Davies deserves his shot and is there on merit. I also don't understand people being worried about him playing 12. Unless I'm going mad I've seen him there a couple of times for the Scarlets this past season. Tualagi has vanished from the 23 entirely. I can only assume that the shoulder just isn't right.

Wings are fine for me - I just hope that nobody is being rushed back from injury early. Must be devastating for a player to break down during a match like this. I have faith in James Robson though - he's said 'no' to much fiercer coaches than Gatland before.

The bench I have some issues with, though. As I mentioned, from a tactical perspective and also based on form over the past fortnight, I just don't understand why Lydiate is there instead of Tipuric. Does Gats assume that we'll be ahead with 20 to go and we just need to maintain a defensive line? It's the only reason I can think of. Deans now has the stronger bench and that annoys me, because it needn't be the case.

Parling over Gray is actually the biggest shock of the 23 for me and based on the aggregate form of each of them over the past fortnight, I really don't understand it. Gray offers more of an all round game and athleticism is going to be really important against big lumps like Mowen and Douglas as we have to move them around. I just see what Parling offers in preference other than lineour solidity. Is that the reason? Does Gats think that O'Connell may not last the whole match and the set piece should be the priority? It's all I can think of.

What's done is done. Gatland has put his faith in his Welsh team. If it works, he'll be lauded. If it doesn't, he will inevitably be accused of wearing blinkers. But that's the job.

Does that Lions 23 have enough to beat the Wallabies? I think so, but (as will always be the case with something this subjective), I don't think that he's given us every chance. Close, but not quite. We can target the back row - Mowen will be key as he'll need to play both 6 and 8 in this game (when Palu comes off after an hour as he always does, and he's carrying a knee injury), bearing in mind that Simmons can only cover lock and Gill cannot play 8. It's a lot of pressure on a debutant and Heaslip and Warbuton need to be all over him.

Will be glued to the big screen.

Good analysis. I was hoping Lydiate wouldn't be on the bench, but the only reason I could come up with is that if Warburton is struggling and a bit isolated then Lydiate comes on does this dog work he apparently does. I think it's the only real error Gatland has made and would have had SOB on there for proper backrow cover.

I think Parling has done a few things that stand out in the games he's played like making those steals v the Reds (I think it was) and being a part of the replacement team from the Brumbies game that turned the game around. I think it's a close call this though, even AWJ's selection as he's only had the one top game and Gray and Parling have been pretty solid throughout.

I also worry that North isn't right, but trust the medical staff completely. I don't think Gatland will have tried to have a say that he was ready though.

by RubyGuby Thu 20 Jun 2013, 9:04 am

wales606 wrote:If Roberts or Gethin Jenkins had been fit, the Cardiff Blues could have had the largest contingent of players in the starting XV

So why can't we win anything?

Probably because its a 15 aside game - If it was 5 aside you'd probably be in the 1/4's of the HC every year - Oh! and perhaps you can factor in the Tulip coaching handicap

by flyhalffactory Thu 20 Jun 2013, 11:21 am

Agree marginal calls

I don't see the problem with Lydiate, its going to be a wet 80 mins apparently, and the rucks, mauls and turnovers are going to happen, defensive play and redistribution will be the order of the day, with a structured tackling system more important than the ability to perform in broken play.

I think that Croft is a good offensive player, but with a light tackling 8 in Heaslip and an openside who likes to double up with the blindside then in the very key area of the breakdown then I think Lydiate would have been the better option.

I am a bit surprised that Gray hasn't nudged a test 23, but again a marginal call over Parling

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Jun 2013, 11:28 am

Risca Rev wrote:
George Carlin wrote:You can take your pick with the marginal calls - I think that a lot depends on what your substitution strategy is going to be.

The first thing to say is congratulations to Tom Youngs. What a massive success story that is and a fillup to anyone who has only ever seen themselves play in one position. Pays to listen to your coaches sometimes. Obviously his accurate throwing and big tackle count got him there. I think that Hibbard would be a big impact sub too so I can understand this decision.

Next, I am happy with Corbs providing a scrum anchor, leaving Vuni to come on when players are flagging and start to run through them. It maximises his assets and minimises his deficiencies. Corbs was always going to get the shirt with Rowntree there - the nature of his call-up told us that immediately.

Am fine with Warbs starting but I have a big problem with Lydiate on the bench which simply is not justifiable over Tipuric. If it was someone like Ryan Jones who offers flexibility across a number of different positions, then I would understand it, but Lydiate does not. It's a defensive rather than an offensive selection and it does not provide us with a different tactical option if we're losing at the breakdown (the chances of which are slightly increased without Faletau's work rate), which I think is a fairly big mistake.

I have no problem with Croft. I am content he did enough in the other games and we will need his speed against Hooper and the extra lineout option that he offers. However, see note above about Tips missing.

Davies deserves his shot and is there on merit. I also don't understand people being worried about him playing 12. Unless I'm going mad I've seen him there a couple of times for the Scarlets this past season. Tualagi has vanished from the 23 entirely. I can only assume that the shoulder just isn't right.

Wings are fine for me - I just hope that nobody is being rushed back from injury early. Must be devastating for a player to break down during a match like this. I have faith in James Robson though - he's said 'no' to much fiercer coaches than Gatland before.

The bench I have some issues with, though. As I mentioned, from a tactical perspective and also based on form over the past fortnight, I just don't understand why Lydiate is there instead of Tipuric. Does Gats assume that we'll be ahead with 20 to go and we just need to maintain a defensive line? It's the only reason I can think of. Deans now has the stronger bench and that annoys me, because it needn't be the case.

Parling over Gray is actually the biggest shock of the 23 for me and based on the aggregate form of each of them over the past fortnight, I really don't understand it. Gray offers more of an all round game and athleticism is going to be really important against big lumps like Mowen and Douglas as we have to move them around. I just see what Parling offers in preference other than lineour solidity. Is that the reason? Does Gats think that O'Connell may not last the whole match and the set piece should be the priority? It's all I can think of.

What's done is done. Gatland has put his faith in his Welsh team. If it works, he'll be lauded. If it doesn't, he will inevitably be accused of wearing blinkers. But that's the job.

Does that Lions 23 have enough to beat the Wallabies? I think so, but (as will always be the case with something this subjective), I don't think that he's given us every chance. Close, but not quite. We can target the back row - Mowen will be key as he'll need to play both 6 and 8 in this game (when Palu comes off after an hour as he always does, and he's carrying a knee injury), bearing in mind that Simmons can only cover lock and Gill cannot play 8. It's a lot of pressure on a debutant and Heaslip and Warbuton need to be all over him.

Will be glued to the big screen.

Good analysis. I was hoping Lydiate wouldn't be on the bench, but the only reason I could come up with is that if Warburton is struggling and a bit isolated then Lydiate comes on does this dog work he apparently does. I think it's the only real error Gatland has made and would have had SOB on there for proper backrow cover.

I think Parling has done a few things that stand out in the games he's played like making those steals v the Reds (I think it was) and being a part of the replacement team from the Brumbies game that turned the game around. I think it's a close call this though, even AWJ's selection as he's only had the one top game and Gray and Parling have been pretty solid throughout.

I also worry that North isn't right, but trust the medical staff completely. I don't think Gatland will have tried to have a say that he was ready though.

If North isn't 100% fit we have to look on the bright side and say it's unlikely Ioane is either

by nathan Thu 20 Jun 2013, 11:39 am

All this rubbish spouted off about croft, he seemed to cope well in 2009 against a far more physical boks team.

Makes you laugh, but I guess meas can't talk about Farrell at the minute as he's not in the starting 15....

by GunsGerms Thu 20 Jun 2013, 11:58 am

nathan wrote:All this rubbish spouted off about croft, he seemed to cope well in 2009 against a far more physical boks team.

Makes you laugh, but I guess meas can't talk about Farrell at the minute as he's not in the starting 15....

Croft may not be the most physical guy, he is never going to be a wrecking ball 6 like Ferris or J Smith but he has lots of other good qualities. I think he is well worth his place.

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