Joe Frazier - Right to be bitter.....or too sensitive ??

First topic message reminder :

Reading Hauser's book on Ali at the moment and the most interesting part is the Ali-Frazier saga........Ali was very vocal about Frazier...Certainly some of the stuff about his Uncle Tom status and his lack of intellect could be construed as hurtful......

But as my Old man always used to tell me why care about comments from someone you don't care about....

Did anybody really think Frazier was an Uncle Tom??
Did Frazier make his name with Ali ???
Did Frazier make millions with Ali ???

People are sensitive in this life........Some peope find it hard to let go......(My Wife used to at three in the morning earlier in our marriage) However should Ali be to blame for a guy that takes it too seriously??.......After all Don King used the Uncle Tom line on Holy often enough and Douglas they couldn't be bothered...Pride does come before a fall and never more so than in Frazier's case.....

Ali called Patterson a rabbit and an Uncle Tom he chose to ignore it....No one in their right mind thinks Patterson is an Uncle Tom or they shouldn't....

Joe Frazier was a proud man but maybe the problem with Ali lay elsewhere I don't know.............

For me he was too sensitive!!........Did he really have a right to be bitter...Not sure he did......Ali was Ali...........end of!!

The Boss wrote:Truss you're talking to an Irishman. Football is Gaelic Football to me ;)Ye defenders have to work too hard for my liking!

We play gay lick football at the Oyster.....Bruce is in Cardiff on July 23rd.....still tickets available..........Might just buy some flowers for Joanne..

Each to their own big man haha.

Ya'll have to pull the big guns out to sweeten her up. I had to get rid of my tickets to see him in Belfast to move over here. Not happy about it!

If she say's no they'll be an incident on 57th street !!

Jesus ya can tell you we're Born in the USA

on the 4th of July in Asbury park..

Ah Sandy

No, for me he wasn't too sensitive.

Ali acted like the school bully. Most people that were bullied at school will remember the names of those that bullied them long after they have forgotten their teachers names.

People look back on Ali and remember the poems and the funny lines, this is a little too much like looking at highlights of Sir Henry decking Ali and thinking Sir Henry was the greatest.

Much of his comments were low and not funny, for every great Ali comment there were at least two not funny, just plain mean ones (it is these 2 from 3 that seem to have inspired David Haye).

We all have different limits and some people are more sensitive than others because of how they have grown up and what they have experienced, to say that they are wrong for that is just nonsense.

For me Ali will always be one of the best ever at both boxing and being a bit of a Muppet.

Most people that were bullied at school will remember the names of those that bullied them long after they have forgotten their teachers names.

I remember the names of my tormentors at school however, I couldn't really give a stuff as I'm now nearly 42 years old and discovered a long time ago that bullies often have their own issues to to deal with, they generally fail to do and look to project that misery onto others. Turns out that one of the guys at middle school was from a broken home and he ended up being put into care. He had foster carers at one point and it seems clear that his turbulent home life and inability to do anything to change it was the catalyst for his behaviour.

Looking at him objectively, he cuts quite a sad lonely figure but at the time, he was just a big fat kid who hit me a lot.

Frazier seems to have spent his life as his did in the ring. Perhaps if he'd stopped, taken a step back once in a while and assessed the situation properly, things may have been different.

I think this thread provides an interesting insight into which posters are the type to hold grudges, and which will move on.

For example i thought it coincidence that Chris hadnt corresponded with me after i called james toney a talentless salad dodger. But now I realise its more deep rooted than that.

Seriously though, those of you still tormented by your school bullying... If you haven't found a way to let it go now, then the bully really did win. And that's my thing with Frazier, gloating at ali's Parkinson's... It said a lot about him in my view. On the flipside it took Ali a long time to apologise for what he said. Ultimately, its down to individuals if they want to hold grudges and to decide whats forgiveable and what's not. Each to their own, not for me to moralise, just my take on things.

milkyboy wrote:I think this thread provides an interesting insight into which posters are the type to hold grudges, and which will move on.

For example i thought it coincidence that Chris hadnt corresponded with me after i called james toney a talentless salad dodger. But now I realise its more deep rooted than that.

Seriously though, those of you still tormented by your school bullying... If you haven't found a way to let it go now, then the bully really did win. And that's my thing with Frazier, gloating at ali's Parkinson's... It said a lot about him in my view. On the flipside it took Ali a long time to apologise for what he said. Ultimately, its down to individuals if they want to hold grudges and to decide whats forgiveable and what's not. Each to their own, not for me to moralise, just my take on things.

What is interesting about this though is there is a very different element.

Never really had issues with bullying when I was at school (apart from a 16 year old making me smoke a cigarette when I was 11 because I fancied his sister) but I can imagine that the feeling of this is easier to let go as you get older and wiser. Therefore is you are bullied in school it would be easier to get over as you are younger and still discovering who you are. Difference is, being an adult in that situation and a very proud / strong sounds very challenging.

Recently I was driving my kids back from the shops and these two dicks decided to walk in front of the car, I tooted them, they gave me the bird I went on my way. When I stopped 50 yards down the road one of them decided to run towards my car, hurled a can of coke at the car and stood there gesturing. The fight I had inside not to get out the car and give him a slap was truly tough but I saw my little girl in the back getting a bit scared so drove on.

Although I know that in my situation it was the right thing to do for a few weeks afterwards I actually felt less a man for not giving him a slap.

Now this is a really minor thing but as an adult it was a tough thing to do, imagine if someone was telling the world you were stupid and ugly repeatedly, that would be a tough one to get over. It's not just banter it's something different.

Ali was absolute crass during the Frazier fight. If I were to be called "Uncle Tom" by someone it would rankle with me. I would probably move on pretty soon. But I completely understand why Frazier did not get friendly with a guy who questioned his commitment to the "cause" (an important one at that) just to make some money. Some people's don't feel such slaves to money that they can excuse their character, as well as their image to their kids being called into questioned for some extra money.

Although I know that in my situation it was the right thing to do for a few weeks afterwards I actually felt less a man for not giving him a slap.

Thing is, Frazier had three opportunities to give Ali a slap and actually did in arguably the most important one of all (FOTC in '71). The fact he lost the other two with the final fight in Manila being deemed one of the greatest HW fights in history is probably as much of a factor in Frazier's continued hatred of Ali than anything Ali did or said.

People make a great deal of Ali's treatment of Frazier and the verbal abuse he was given but let's not forget Frazier played his part too. Example...introducing his daughter to the media, Ali was understandably a very proud man at which point Frazier says "The kid looks a bit like me" and quick as a flash Ali responds with the classic quip "You calling my kid ugly?"

"Poor Joe, look how Ali made fun of his looks" and yes, Frazier was never going to be given the leading role in any romantic movies yet very few seem to think Frazier was a man of poor character for questioning the paternity of Ali's child (however much in jest it may have been).

Jow played his part in the verbals and more often than not came off second best. However, it's hard to see how Ali can be criticised for being better with the smack talk any more than he can be criticised for being the better fighter in the ring.

That comment was indeed funny. But there is absolutely no justification that can be brought forward for calling him an Uncle Tom in that political climate.

What do you mean there's no justification for it? Frazier lobbied the President of the USA for Ali to be allowed to fight saying "...I'll beat him for you!"

Frazier essentially begged "The Big White Boss" for a favour, the man many felt was to blame for the continued struggles of blacks in America. Of course Ali was going to be angered by that.

DAVE667 wrote:

Jow played his part in the verbals and more often than not came off second best. However, it's hard to see how Ali can be criticised for being better with the smack talk any more than he can be criticised for being the better fighter in the ring.

A very fine line between banter and some of the stuff Ali said though and even further away was some of the stuff that Ali said to Joe.

As for getting to give him a slap, if that was your job would it be as satisfying?

Can't help but make excuses for Joe as he always seemed like a decent kind of guy who was overmatched mentally by Ali.

Oh, so Ali was angry? is that why he has repeatedly said he was just promoting the fight?

Ali would grow to be a great guy, but he was an absolute git re: Frazier. Simple as that

I've read a fair bit on both accounts and seen various documentaries and I think Frazier had every right to be bitter.

I'm a huge Ali fan and think he was generally a nice guy and did a lot of good things for people BUT to Frazier he was a horrible person.

Especially when you hear Frazier gave him money whilst in boxing exile for Ali to call him an Uncle Tom (effectively trying to outcast him from his own race) is pretty shallow.

I've heard Frazier say before in an interview he was glad he contributed to Ali's ill health so he was pretty mad!

As for getting to give him a slap, if that was your job would it be as satisfying?

What, getting paid millions of dollars to do it? You bet!
Again I'd point out that Frazier was desperate to keep Ali on side as he knew that the majority of boxing fans simply didn't consider him the "real" champion. Ali's ban meant that Joe won the title without taking from the Champion and, for Frazier to achieve some kind of legitimacy, put quite simply, he NEEDED Ali. A fight with Ali would also make Frazier a LOT of money so let's not make out that Joe was some kind of saint. he had his own reasons for wanting Ali back in the ring asap.

Oh, alright, Obviously Ali vs Frazier wouldnt have sold without bringing race into it or anything. Champion vs Champion... No attraction there.

Dunno bout that - the other people he called uncle tom didn't get the same amount of abuse as him - e.g ernie terrell

Oh, alright, Obviously Ali vs Frazier wouldnt have sold without bringing race into it or anything. Champion vs Champion... No attraction there

How could they fight if Ali didn't have a licence? Frazier begged the President to give Ali his licence so they could fight. Frazier needed Ali but was too dumb to realise that America's attitude towards the Vietnam war had changed and Ali's "I got no quarrel with them Vietcong" comment was no longer seen as subversive. Young white college kids were out protesting the war. Chances are Ali's ban would have been overturned soon enough anyway but Frazier couldn't wait and essentially debased himself in the eyes of many blacks for what they saw as a massive payday.

Also how much of that abuse was down to Bryant Gumbel rather than Ali?

Easier to vilify Ali  (quicker to spell?)

Did Ali call him an Uncle Tom before or after he got his license back? Frazier never made this a political matter. He knew he needed to beat Ali to be acknowledged as the undisputed king of the mountain. He went to the President in an attempt to get Ali his license, how do you perceive this as "uncle Tom" behaviour? Thats ignoring the money Frazier gave Ali during his exile years. Ali was an a$$, simple as that.

I dont even take issue with Ali for what he said, I just dont have time to hear that Frazier was too sensitive and that Ali was making them both money.

He went to the President in an attempt to get Ali his license, how do you perceive this as "uncle Tom" behaviour?

I assume you know the origin's of the term "uncle Tom"? However...

Essentially, the house slaves who doted on their masters were derided by the field hands as the house slaves considered themselves to be so above the field hands they believed themselves to be equal to the white slave owners. They felt they were almost part of the family.

"Oh so you think you're one of them eh? You must think you're like dear old Uncle Tom."

So Frazier, a black man, goes to the President, THE white master, and says "give him his licence back and I'll beat him for you." It came across as Frazier conspiring with the enemy, hence why he was considered an Uncle Tom.

OK?

I actually did know the origins.... thank you very much. Its just rich to hear a Louisville boy who grew up fairly well, who was introduced to boxing by a white policeman, Had himself a white trainer. He talked black and Lived white.

kingraf wrote:I actually did know the origins.... thank you very much. Its just rich to hear a Louisville boy who grew up fairly well, who was introduced to boxing by a white policeman, Had himself a white trainer. He talked black and Lived white.

If you were aware of the origins of the term then how can you fail to understand why Frazier's actions would have him labelled an Uncle Tom. You talk about Ali's affiliation with numerous white people as if Frazier was the one more true to his roots yet when the chips were down, it was Frazier who went running to the White man for help. Ali had defied them by refusing to be inducted into the Army, irrepective of what rank/role he'd have held and held true to his beliefs.

Ali's test scores would have rendered him ineligible if he'd actually applied to join the Army but when it came inducting him, they actually lowered the pass mark such was their desperation to capture him. As he said, when it suits the American Govt every black man is given the same consideration as a white man, namely to get shot in a far off country fighting a war they don't fully understand.

The president happened to be white. Did Frazier offer to take Ali down for the white man? Remember, Ali put race into it, Frazier has no obligation to not be seen with white people.

"You talk about Ali's affiliation with numerous white
people as if Frazier was the one more true to his
roots yet when the chips were down, it was Frazier
who went running to the White man for help."

Ali knew plenty white people, and like you yourself said, " Frazier needed Ali but was too
dumb to realise that America's attitude towards
the Vietnam war had changed and Ali's "I got no
quarrel with them Vietcong" comment was no
longer seen as subversive. Young white college
kids were out protesting the war."

Uncle Tom is a big statement, and anybody wrongfully called one has full reason to choose not to kiss his tormentor's a$$. Remember, like I said, " I dont even take issue with Ali for what he said, I
just dont have time to hear that Frazier was too
sensitive and that Ali was making them both
money."

Bottom line, Frazier was no uncle Tom ergo, he had full reason to hate Ali.

Did Frazier offer to take Ali down for the white man?

How many more times? Frazier said, "Give him his licence back and I'll beat him for you" Can't make it any clearer than that (I've even put it in bold fella) even though you do seem to be choosing to ignore the evidence.

Bottom line, (as you seem so intent on ending this discussion), Frazier's actions were deemed unsavoury by people who were calling on the Government to assist with Civil Rights issues and as, such, he was seen as an "Uncle Tom" Maybe it IS one of the vilest insults a black man can level at another but given the political stance many were adopting, perhaps their attitude was "if the cap fits..." and at that time, Frazier was the one looking for a handout from The Man. How else would you view it?

Look, youre choosing to believe something which obviously isnt true. I dont think Frazier meant it in that way, and Ali has said many times he was just trying to improve the gate, and TV-numbers, so he obviously didnt really think he was one either. Simples. Ali put the dollar before simple decency. He didnt think Frazier was a UT anymore than I think you are the Lochness monster.

huw wrote:
Recently I was driving my kids back from the shops and these two dicks decided to walk in front of the car, I tooted them, they gave me the bird I went on my way. When I stopped 50 yards down the road one of them decided to run towards my car, hurled a can of coke at the car and stood there gesturing. The fight I had inside not to get out the car and give him a slap was truly tough but I saw my little girl in the back getting a bit scared so drove on.

Although I know that in my situation it was the right thing to do for a few weeks afterwards I actually felt less a man for not giving him a slap.

Now this is a really minor thing but as an adult it was a tough thing to do, imagine if someone was telling the world you were stupid and ugly repeatedly, that would be a tough one to get over. It's not just banter it's something different.

Yeh... You should have slapped him huw! No seriously, what can you do when you have your kids in the car... There's no good outcome if you stop. You just have to swallow a bit of pride sometimes and move on. I know the feeling though.

As for people calling you stupid and ugly as an adult... My wife does that all the time, but I've learnt to cope.

Sounds like spousal abuse...

I shouldn't think you're ugly..

Very sharp truss. However, I meant my wife calls huw stupid and ugly... Not words you could use about a brad Pitt doppelgänger with a double first like myself.

In Benjamin Button..

milkyboy wrote:Very sharp truss. However, I meant my wife calls huw stupid and ugly... Not words you could use about a brad Pitt doppelgänger with a double first like myself.

She really does need to learn better dirty talk, she almost put me off the other night...

Look, youre choosing to believe something which obviously isnt true. I dont think Frazier meant it in that way,

Brilliant, you're telling me something OBVIOUSLY isn't true and then saying you don't think Frazier meant it in that way. Ergo, it must have been said.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Reading Hauser's book on Ali at the moment and the most interesting part is the Ali-Frazier saga........Ali was very vocal about Frazier...Certainly some of the stuff about his Uncle Tom status and his lack of intellect could be construed as hurtful......

But as my Old man always used to tell me why care about comments from someone you don't care about....

Did anybody really think Frazier was an Uncle Tom??
Did Frazier make his name with Ali ???
Did Frazier make millions with Ali ???

People are sensitive in this life........Some peope find it hard to let go......(My Wife used to at three in the morning earlier in our marriage) However should Ali be to blame for a guy that takes it too seriously??.......After all Don King used the Uncle Tom line on Holy often enough and Douglas they couldn't be bothered...Pride does come before a fall and never more so than in Frazier's case.....

Ali called Patterson a rabbit and an Uncle Tom he chose to ignore it....No one in their right mind thinks Patterson is an Uncle Tom or they shouldn't....

Joe Frazier was a proud man but maybe the problem with Ali lay elsewhere I don't know.............

For me he was too sensitive!!........Did he really have a right to be bitter...Not sure he did......Ali was Ali...........end of!!

Replace the Word Frazier with Truss. Golden.

huw wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Very sharp truss. However, I meant my wife calls huw stupid and ugly... Not words you could use about a brad Pitt doppelgänger with a double first like myself.

She really does need to learn better dirty talk, she almost put me off the other night...

Oh you were the guy with erectile disfunction she told me about? I assumed that was truss.

milkyboy wrote:

huw wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Very sharp truss. However, I meant my wife calls huw stupid and ugly... Not words you could use about a brad Pitt doppelgänger with a double first like myself.

She really does need to learn better dirty talk, she almost put me off the other night...

Oh you were the guy with erectile disfunction she told me about? I assumed that was truss.

I doubt it, if it had been truss he could have headbutted her in the unmentionables for the same affect

milkyboy wrote:

huw wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Very sharp truss. However, I meant my wife calls huw stupid and ugly... Not words you could use about a brad Pitt doppelgänger with a double first like myself.

She really does need to learn better dirty talk, she almost put me off the other night...

Oh you were the guy with erectile disfunction she told me about? I assumed that was truss.

In my defense it is very difficult to get the little man working when you are getting called stupid and ugly, it had never happened to me before and apparently it is very common......

Not common among real men huw... Men who punch people who throw coke cans at their car, rather than drive off:whistle: