Lions Supporters! What a Joke

First topic message reminder :

I am frankly disgusted at the attitude of many posting here today. The vitriol espoused regarding the composition of the LIONS team picked for Saturday is disappointing in the extreme.

I have followed Lions tours in person since 1993 regardless of who was picked. In the second test in 93 there were 11English players, didn't bother me and I shouted and celebrated the victory as eagerly as any Englishman on tour. In 97 there were only 2 Welsh players, in 2001 3 in 2005 4-5. IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Wales are the dominant side in NH results speak for themselves. There was no outrage when English players dominated squads and teams, England were at the time the dominant force in the NH. The team is as it should be. For what its worth I would have given BOD his swansong, if the test is ultimately won on desire and sheer will then I doubt even now he has many peers.

So I would ask those who have gone way over the top to calm down and get behind the team. Especially if you are in Aus:hug: 

Synergy (noun) is the interaction of multiple elements in a system to produce an effect different from or greater than the sum of their individual effects. The term synergy comes from the Greek word synergia συνέργια from synergos, συνεργός, meaning "working together"

 

Mickado wrote:Synergy (noun) is the interaction of multiple elements in a system to produce an effect different from or greater than the sum of their individual effects. The term synergy comes from the Greek word synergia συνέργια from synergos, συνεργός, meaning "working together"

 

Do you promote it like a boss?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Mickado wrote:Synergy (noun) is the interaction of multiple elements in a system to produce an effect different from or greater than the sum of their individual effects. The term synergy comes from the Greek word synergia συνέργια from synergos, συνεργός, meaning "working together"

 

Do you promote it like a boss?

 

It's a perfectly cromulent word...

Damn you Micko, you embiggened my vocabulary but I thought I found a flaw in your idea.

I must say if the Lions win and I hope the do of course I cant help feeling like they will have done it the hard way. From day one the Aussies have been there for the taking if only we could have shown some balls to take them on out wide.

Thomond wrote:

Mickado wrote:The way I see it, the Lions should represent the synergy of the best teams in Britain and Ireland, not just be the best team (which is subjective anyway) with some reinforcements bolted onto it.

Ireland were coming off the back of a grand slam going into the last tour (not to mention Munster winning the Magners League and Leinster winning the HC) so if DK was the Lions coach, and had decided to pick 10 Irish players plus 3 Welshmen and 2 English, and play with the exact same gameplan as he did with Ireland, and when in doubt always pick an Irish player, presumably everyone would be ok with that too then? Because once they’re called the Lions, they are the Lions?

I don’t think so.

I like the fact that you used synergy, I also don't know if anybody on the planet knows what it actually means, I sure as hell don't. A nice buzzword to throw in!

Uhh, it means a mix of things to make a group consisted of those things greater than the sum of its parts. Synergy. It's pretty common.

I think we should have been given more letters of the word: Synergy. All we were given if e and y.

Thomond wrote:

Mickado wrote:The way I see it, the Lions should represent the synergy of the best teams in Britain and Ireland, not just be the best team (which is subjective anyway) with some reinforcements bolted onto it.

Ireland were coming off the back of a grand slam going into the last tour (not to mention Munster winning the Magners League and Leinster winning the HC) so if DK was the Lions coach, and had decided to pick 10 Irish players plus 3 Welshmen and 2 English, and play with the exact same gameplan as he did with Ireland, and when in doubt always pick an Irish player, presumably everyone would be ok with that too then? Because once they’re called the Lions, they are the Lions?

I don’t think so.

I like the fact that you used synergy, I also don't know if anybody on the planet knows what it actually means, I sure as hell don't. A nice buzzword to throw in!

Apologies, but the word synergy has no place in Rugby.


It is not the notion of synergy between our Rugby nations which I find objectionable.  Working together to make us better than our individual components is what has made us great on the world stage in the past, and quite probably will again in the future.  Rather it is the idea, the thought, the arrogance (and I despise that word) to interject an elemental bureaucratic BS Buzzword into a Rugby discussion.  We should be free - free I say - of all synergies, alignments, and concurrent ideations. Free to tell someone to get one's head out of one's a*se, instead of 'going back for an elemental re-think'.  Can anyone simply look at the 'big picture' instead of taking a 20,000 foot view?  

Please revert your considered opinions.

Again, to be clear, the word 'synergy' and all its bureaucratic and degenerate cousins have the same place in Rugby as a used and mouldy condom.

doctor_grey wrote:

Thomond wrote:

Mickado wrote:The way I see it, the Lions should represent the synergy of the best teams in Britain and Ireland, not just be the best team (which is subjective anyway) with some reinforcements bolted onto it.

Ireland were coming off the back of a grand slam going into the last tour (not to mention Munster winning the Magners League and Leinster winning the HC) so if DK was the Lions coach, and had decided to pick 10 Irish players plus 3 Welshmen and 2 English, and play with the exact same gameplan as he did with Ireland, and when in doubt always pick an Irish player, presumably everyone would be ok with that too then? Because once they’re called the Lions, they are the Lions?

I don’t think so.

I like the fact that you used synergy, I also don't know if anybody on the planet knows what it actually means, I sure as hell don't. A nice buzzword to throw in!

Apologies, but the word synergy has no place in Rugby.


It is not the notion of synergy between our Rugby nations which I find objectionable.  Working together to make us better than our individual components is what has made us great on the world stage in the past, and quite probably will again in the future.  Rather it is the idea, the thought, the arrogance (and I despise that word) to interject an elemental bureaucratic BS Buzzword into a Rugby discussion.  We should be free - free I say - of all synergies, alignments, and concurrent ideations. Free to tell someone to get one's head out of one's a*se, instead of 'going back for an elemental re-think'.  Can anyone simply look at the 'big picture' instead of taking a 20,000 foot view?  

Please revert your considered opinions.

Again, to be clear, the word 'synergy' and all its bureaucratic and degenerate cousins have the same place in Rugby as a used and mouldy condom.

You've never played the "Used and mouldy condom" game on the tour bus Doc?

Dude, it's just a word. It's in the dictionary like every other word. Maybe you should complain at the bureaucrats for using the word when they don't mean it or it is out of context (I've been there, heard that too) instead of objecting to someone using the word for it's genuine use.

Sincerely,
PatersonIsMyHero, DLPCW [Defense League for the Protection & Care of Words]

I think in fairness that the issues are not with the nationalities of the players but the type of players they are.
Its a team set up to smash down a door... and thats it. Its a strategy that Gatland has used 23 times in his 5 years as Welsh coach... and he only got over the line in 1 of those games.
Thinking it was down to individuals, a few tweaks here and there is madness. We're angry because we think the series is going to be thrown away... try and find someone supporting his theory... you'll have to dig deep and even then it will probably be in the Western Mail.

England beat the ABs by a record score, the 2nd largest defeat in their history and 6 months later only 2 of those players involved are on the pitch. Ireland beat AUS in NZ 2 years ago and only 3 of those players will be involved come Saturday likewise.

I've heard so much tripe on this site about how... "well frankly I wouldn't have 1 Englishman/Irishman/Scotsman in my Lions side because they are not good enough in my honest opinion etc"... well if you think that, you're biased. A side that beats the ABs, thats can beat AUS in the last RWC, in their own backyard less then 12 months ago are not bad sides and their individuals are better then you think.

In 1993 their were 11 Englishman starting the 2nd and 3rd tests.... but because they were so far ahead of everyone else at the time... near lightyears ahead. Even then chaps like Jeff Probyn were snubbed over Peter Wright... (vying for worst lions ever with Colin Charvis, Shane Byrne, Keith Earls and Lee Mears). Sure they didn't have a good season in the 93 5N but they beat the ABs later that year compared to them smashing Scotland by 50 points the week before and Ireland by 50 points the year before. The gap was very significant in those days... like the mid 70s and Wales.

Today the teams are far closer... sure England lost to Wales in the 6N, but England beat Ireland away and Ireland beat Wales away... go figure who is the best out of that. Wales won the 6N championships great but the best to a point they are dominating the side completely.... don't try and kid yourself.

I'm not overtly bothered by anyone dominating the lions for the right reasons... it just doesn't look like they have been selected for the right reasons. Warburton is by far the best openside in the home nations... but he's been injured, off the pace etc and why so many of us were questioning his inclusion, his captaincy etc... its nothing to do with him being "Welsh".... although listen to him and you'd be less inclined to think so given his very "British" accent.

Lets hope myself, most of the non-welsh posters on here and nearly all the pundits around the world are wrong.

There is no bureaucratic connotation to what I said. I don't think there should be quotas or political sops etc.


The team picked for the weekend is not a blend of styles and players to achieve something greater than the sum of the parts, it's Wales plus 5 to achieve something greater than Wales.

fa0019 wrote: A side that beats the ABs, thats can beat AUS in the last RWC, in their own backyard less then 12 months ago are not bad sides and their individuals are better then you think.

While I agree with most of your post fa, Auckland is no more in our backyard than Paris is in Englands. From memory it seemed like Ireland were almost the home team in that game.

Mickado, I'm a big fan of your cromulence.

Mickado wrote:There is no bureaucratic connotation to what I said. I don't think there should be quotas or political sops etc.


The team picked for the weekend is not a blend of styles and players to achieve something greater than the sum of the parts, it's Wales plus 5 to achieve something greater than Wales.

It's Wales and five blame donkeys

daiglass63 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

MrsP wrote:I AM a Lions fan. That is way I am so dismayed about the selection for Saturday.

They will be wearing Lions shirts but that is no Lions team.

Not that that is the fault of the guys in those shirts of course. They have been selected and all anyone can ask is that they tog out and play their best.

But this is not what the Lions is about. That is why Lions supporters are disappointed.

Can you please clarify why the side chosen is not a Lions team.I don't get the point that you are making.
It would seem that Gatland has chosen players that he feels will win the Test.What is he supposed to do?
I do not agree with his selection but it is his call.

I didn't write the quote, so far from me to answer for MrsP but I agreed with what was said.

So for me I am a Lions fan, so for that reason the selection for Saturday hasn't worked because Gatland has not picked the best guys. The idea is take 4 nations who play the game of rugby but play it differently from everyone else and make them better than the sum of their parts.

All he has done is pick his Welsh favourites and hidden behind the excuse of familiarity and is trying to pass over a massive physical test team as the pinnacle of NH rugby. It's all lies.

He has perhaps tried some guile and flair in training and decided it doesn't work. He said before he'll have a back up plan, he doesn't. Now we are stuck with a team full of Welsh players playing the Welsh style of rugby and a couple of cameo's from English and Irish players and a token Scot on the bench.

Like I said SCW all over again. He picked all of his favourites and made the lions play like England and the Welsh lion's fans were very angry.

Take of the Welsh tinted glasses look at it objectively and tell me this isn't the same type of scenario.

He has let the Lions fans down with this bizarre and frankly desperate selection. That is why I am disappointed.

God, what an ego!!

You must be the font of all rugby knowledge as you know so much more than a group of qualified,experienced and successful coaches. Why didn't they ask you to coach the Lions? it's a no brainer!!

A few questions for you. How has he let the Lions supporters down? Why do you speak for all Lions supporters? and do you want me to pick up that dummy you spat out?

daiglass, you might want to hold back on the judgmental attitude, it is radge's opinion, you are welcome to disagree, but leave the dummy spits and Eli's out of it.

Full Credit wrote:

fa0019 wrote: A side that beats the ABs, thats can beat AUS in the last RWC, in their own backyard less then 12 months ago are not bad sides and their individuals are better then you think.

While I agree with most of your post fa, Auckland is no more in our backyard than Paris is in Englands. From memory it seemed like Ireland were almost the home team in that game.

Mickado, I'm a big fan of your cromulence.

I think he's listing the other 3 home nations: England, then Ireland, then Scotland. Backyard being Newcastle. Sort of.

patersonismyhero wrote:Dude, it's just a word. It's in the dictionary like every other word. Maybe you should complain at the bureaucrats for using the word when they don't mean it or it is out of context (I've been there, heard that too) instead of objecting to someone using the word for it's genuine use.

Sincerely,
PatersonIsMyHero, DLPCW [Defense League for the Protection & Care of Words]

No, its not just a word.  It encapsulates everything wrong and evil.  You have been co-opted by the forces of darkness.  And those forces, well, they work together, almost synergistically...........

Just think.........
Churchill:   "They operated in a fine synergistic manner, it was their finest hour"  
Franklin:  "We must synergise or we will all hang separately"
Anon.:  "There is no 'I' in the word team"  (but there is in synergise)

doctor_grey wrote:

patersonismyhero wrote:Dude, it's just a word. It's in the dictionary like every other word. Maybe you should complain at the bureaucrats for using the word when they don't mean it or it is out of context (I've been there, heard that too) instead of objecting to someone using the word for it's genuine use.

Sincerely,
PatersonIsMyHero, DLPCW [Defense League for the Protection & Care of Words]

No, its not just a word.  It encapsulates everything wrong and evil.  You have been co-opted by the forces of darkness.  And those forces, well, they work together, almost synergistically...........

Just think.........
Churchill:   "They operated in a fine synergistic manner, it was their finest hour"  
Franklin:  "We must synergise or we will all hang separately"
Anon.:  "There is no 'I' in the word team"  (but there is in synergise)

Modifications on 'synergy' I think are lame. Let's keep the word synergy only and go from there.

Synergy: cooperation that helps the system
Symbiosis: cooperation that helps the self.

There is no sense of symbiosis in the Lions camp rather than that there is a lack of synergy.
Synergy is non-test guys still hanging around on the training field and doing "We're still happy" interviews.  It's still there.  It's operating smoothly

On the other hand, symbiosis is at perilous risk of total collapse.
Some think they don't need others.  Others think the some can go f**k themselves

A complete breakdown of the symbiotic foundation of the Lions

Not read this thread but read plenty to, unfortunately agree with the op's title. Saturdays the LIONS......if, as a group on an internet forum, we are reflective of the british culture then, yes......lion's supporters what a joke!!

Luckily - back in the real world, most non-cyber rugby folks from the isles aren't this way inclined - lions all the way. (plus this time we've the added bonus of IF the lions lose we can all blae the welsh  )

The touch paper has been lit!

Stand well back people!

The thousands of Lions supporters there for the final test will certainly be behind them and I think come kick off, everyone will be regardless of who's playing and what country they come from. If its level scores with 2 mins remaining and the lions have a scrum on the Aussie 22 line, I'm sure we'll all be on the edge of our seats/bar stools shouting our support at the TV.

Yup

Furious fans spouting vitriol over who is and isn't selected is, in my own experience, something that happens on every lions tour. It'll happen on the next one, and the one after that. The first thing that happens after the players are selected is everyone counts how many come from they're own country. The second thing that happens is fans from each country get angry and argue over who wasn't selected. The third thing that happens is fans argue over who shouldn't have been chosen for the test side. The fourth thing that happens is fans going into a rage and blaming one or two people for losing a series.

I can't believe that you're shocked by this. Nothing gets fans enraged and at each other's throats like a lions tour.

Currently the only person to blame for the current state of the tour is Gatland. I cant think of many guys playing badly on the tour. Certainly all the guys played with pride and effort.

Intotouch wrote:Furious fans spouting vitriol over who is and isn't selected is, in my own experience, something that happens on every lions tour. It'll happen on the next one, and the one after that. The first thing that happens after the players are selected is everyone counts how many come from they're own country. The second thing that happens is fans from each country get angry and argue over who wasn't selected. The third thing that happens is fans argue over who shouldn't have been chosen for the test side. The fourth thing that happens is fans going into a rage and blaming one or two people for losing a series.

I can't believe that you're shocked by this. Nothing gets fans enraged and at each other's throats like a lions tour.

I agree about the part about counting how many players your country has. I do that. I think most people do.

Are we also overlooking the other coaches? Yes Gatland get's the final call on selections but Rowntree/Farrell will have also had an input. Although i'm just throwing the idea out there, but it does look Gatland has gone on his own on this one regardless of what the other coaches may have thought.

My memory of posts from the last tour was of the shocking abuse directed at our hosts.

Toadfish wrote:

thomh wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:
Wales are the dominant side in NH results speak for themselves.

Not really, they have the two titles to England's one, but the overall Six Nations table of the last Lions cycle doesn't bear that out, and that's before you factor in that England, Ireland and Scotland have much better records against the Southern Hemisphere, as well as Ireland's phenomenal Heineken Cup record. I'm generally pretty happy with this week's selection, including Davies over BOD, and think the majority of selections can be justified on their own merit, but I'd rather people didn't just justify them by claiming that Wales are on another level from everyone else, when the facts don't bear that out.

..............Played...Won...Drawn Lost...Points
1 England .....20.... 14.... 1..... 5..... 29
2 Wales....... 20.... 14.... 0..... 6..... 28
3 France...... 20.... 11.... 2..... 7..... 24
4 Ireland...... 20.... 9..... 2..... 9..... 20
5 Italy......... 20.... 5..... 0...... 15.... 10
6 Scotland.... 20.... 4..... 1...... 15.... 9

I agree with the general point of your post by the way - to be clear.

Or if you wanted to go 'crazy' and look at how the four teams have done against all oposition the table would look like this:

Team Span Mat Won Lost Draw %
England 2009-2013 46 28 16 2 63.04
Ireland 2009-2013 45 20 22 3 47.77
Wales 2009-2013 53 24 28 1 46.22
Scotland 2009-2013 43 18 24 1 43.02

As I say though, that would be crazy and irrelevant.

Oh how some people like to manipulate data to support their point. Since 09 there have been 4 6n Wales have won 2 one with a GS and have recently won back to back. If that does not identify them as the dominant force then I don't know what does

Mickado wrote:The way I see it, the Lions should represent the synergy of the best teams in Britain and Ireland, not just be the best team (which is subjective anyway) with some reinforcements bolted onto it.

Ireland were coming off the back of a grand slam going into the last tour (not to mention Munster winning the Magners League and Leinster winning the HC) so if DK was the Lions coach, and had decided to pick 10 Irish players plus 3 Welshmen and 2 English, and play with the exact same gameplan as he did with Ireland, and when in doubt always pick an Irish player, presumably everyone would be ok with that too then? Because once they’re called the Lions, they are the Lions?

I don’t think so.

Then you think are wrong (insult removed). Do you really only support the Lions if there are loads of Irish playing. Do you switch off when as is normal 7 or 8 English are selected? If yes watch hurling they are all Irish there

Think you've missed the point there DB. But whatever, good luck to you.

dragonsbreasts wrote:Insult removed- BB.

I think that you owe Mick an apology via PM.
I enjoy a bit of mockery and joshing in the rough and tumble of the board, but that comment is beyond the pale.

(In my opinion.)

dragonbreath wrote:
Oh how some people like to manipulate data to support their point. Since 09 there have been 4 6n Wales have won 2 one with a GS and have recently won back to back. If that does not identify them as the dominant force then I don't know what does

It's not manipulating data at all. It's a simple table of the Six Nations as a whole over the Lions cycle, which includes two home and away games against each team.

If Wales had been "dominant" over that cycle you would expect them to be clearly at the top. As it is they're marginally in second.

This has to be the 1st tour since 1997 that the general Welsh public have supporter the tour, of course real rugby fans well always follow the Lions whatever their nationality but it is nice to see the Welsh public taking a Lions tour seriously and joining in.

Scrumpy wrote:This has to be the 1st tour since 1997 that the general Welsh public have supporter the tour, of course real rugby fans well always follow the Lions whatever their nationality but it is nice to see the Welsh public taking a Lions tour seriously and joining in.

Are you taking the p*ss?! Welsh travelling support for the Lions is, apparently, the highest of the 4 nations (as a % of the countries population) and has been for the last 4 or 5 tours . The pubs are always packed out for the Lions matches. Actually, if anything this tour seems less supported in the pubs than previous ones - go figure.

I just can't see where you're coming from - I've been queuing outside pubs in Cardiff in 2001 and 2005 to get in in the morning and they were rammed for the games. How can you say the general public didn't support it?! I was there, I was one of the general public, and we were very large in number!

Maybe the pubs in Cardiff were full of people wanting to see the Lions lose?

I experianced that 1st hand in 2005, I guess its a case of swings and roundabouts!

One thing that isnt getting much attention is the selection of AWJ as captain. Its pretty obvious the guy has leadership qualities but he has no experience as captain in the test arena so why put him in there in the Lions biggest game?

Can someone please explain the logic behind this? He is the most inexperienced Lions test captain I can ever remember. In such a crucial game I cant help thinking this is very strange.

Guns, I guess you're right. But he was touted as the Lions captain pre tour so not that much of a surprise now.

Wasn't Martin Johnson Captain in 1997 without being England captain before?

Griff wrote:Guns, I guess you're right.  But he was touted as the Lions captain pre tour so not that much of a surprise now.

Wasn't Martin Johnson Captain in 1997 without being England captain before?

Yeah thats true. Phil DeGlanville was captain. Good call.

Griff, AWJ has been one of our best players and he is a top character but I always think experience counts for a lot and in a selection game of small margins while Davies and BOD might be performing around the same level surely BODs experience as captain should have tipped the balance in his favour.

In any case its a moot point now and I dont think AWJ nor Davies will let us down. LIONS, LIONS!!!!!!

GunsGerms wrote:One thing that isnt getting much attention is the selection of AWJ as captain. Its pretty obvious the guy has leadership qualities but he has no experience as captain in the test arena so why put him in there in the Lions biggest game?

Can someone please explain the logic behind this? He is the most inexperienced Lions test captain I can ever remember. In such a crucial game I cant help thinking this is very strange.

I'll explain it. Gatland loves him. From what I have seen he had one good game. Now all of a sudden Lions test captain!

The captaincy at Wales has been passed around like a dirty magazine, Ryan Jones, Warburton, Gethin so it isn't a surprise that AWJ has been named captain.

I would have started Evans and Gray. Thing is there aren't that many experienced leaders in that test team. Had Heaslip been retained I would have had him as captain.

Why Evans and Gray? Evans, we're told my many on here, shouldn't even be touring as he's been so gash. How is he now in your test team???

AWJ and Gray for me.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I'll explain it. Gatland loves him. From what I have seen he had one good game. Now all of a sudden Lions test captain!

The captaincy at Wales has been passed around like a dirty magazine, Ryan Jones, Warburton, Gethin so it isn't a surprise that AWJ has been named captain.

I would have started Evans and Gray. Thing is there aren't that many experienced leaders in that test team. Had Heaslip been retained I would have had him as captain.

AWJ hasnt got the nod since '09 though for his one and only cap as captain. They guys you mentioned have been picking up starts as captain consistentently.

dragonbreath you just don't like the figures because they completely blow your argument out of the water.

Wales the dominant force in NH? Tell that to Samoa,Japan,Argentina and of course Ireland.

Can't we all just get on?

We're all on the same side, aren't we?

Scrumpy wrote:Can't we all just get on?

We're all on the same side, aren't we?

Apparently not.

beshocked wrote:dragonbreath you just don't like the figures because they completely blow your argument out of the water.

Wales the dominant force in NH? Tell that to Samoa,Japan,Argentina and of course Ireland.

Maybe Im thick but I just do not understand this comment at all.

Some of the comments here really make me angry...


99% of people that are arguing about the lions selection and tactics are pointing the finger at Gatland and hos coaches - SO PLEASE STOP TELLING US WE ARE ANTI WELSH

aucklandlaurie wrote:

beshocked wrote:dragonbreath you just don't like the figures because they completely blow your argument out of the water.

Wales the dominant force in NH? Tell that to Samoa,Japan,Argentina and of course Ireland.

 Maybe Im thick but I just do not understand this comment at all.

These countries in particular will probably not think Wales are the best side in the NH because all of them have beaten them in the last year.

Plus in the Lions you want players who actually have experience beating the SH sides.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

beshocked wrote:dragonbreath you just don't like the figures because they completely blow your argument out of the water.

Wales the dominant force in NH? Tell that to Samoa,Japan,Argentina and of course Ireland.

 Maybe Im thick but I just do not understand this comment at all.

I think beshocked's point is that they are all teams who have beaten Wales this season.

beshocked wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

beshocked wrote:dragonbreath you just don't like the figures because they completely blow your argument out of the water.

Wales the dominant force in NH? Tell that to Samoa,Japan,Argentina and of course Ireland.

 Maybe Im thick but I just do not understand this comment at all.

These countries in particular will probably not think Wales are the best side in the NH because all of them have beaten them in the last year.

Plus in the Lions you want players who actually have experience beating the SH sides.

Thanks to some help from their friends some of these guys have now (1st test), Gatlands plans for 2015 RWC are already underway