Scotland vs South Africa 15th June 2013

I have wanted to discuss the Scotland vs South Africa game for some time here on V2 but due to my Hiatus it had to wait, so although belated, here is my view.

Scotland.

One thing the scots did very well was planning how to go about their business on the day, now some of what I am about to say may rub you the wrong way, however it hasn’t been discussed much on here apart from a few mentions.

They were smart, very , very smart, whether it was their knowledge of how Raymond Poite officiates the breakdown, or just being smart on the day, they attacked the breakdown against a very inexperienced SA backrow with intelligence and zealousness. When Arno Botha who is a bit of a freak of nature got injured in the first 4 minutes of the match and Kolisi joined Pierre Spies and Marcell Coetzee the writing was on the wall.

A Scottish backrow led by Strokosch had a field day, I have to immediately bring in here the fact that as much of their play was illegal as there was legal play. What you have to concede though is they played to a referee that was as lenient to these indiscretions as you could possibly be, and they knew it, and played to it.

The inexperienced backrowers of SA led by the ever worsening Pierre Spies just had no answer to it.

What it did lead to was a Scottish backrow who got more bold by the minute, to the point where there indescretions became a bit of a joke. Matt Scott was having a field day at the back, he is an obvious talent, but with the space that he got to move in, it simply made his task so much simpler.

His second try in my book should never have been awarded, irrespective of whether you agree with the TMO interfering the fact was that at the previous ruck, Strokosch held back Kolisi and Flip v d Merwe back enough to have one of the Scottish forwards (can’t remember who it was) to run through untouched to just 5 meters from our line, the subsequent ball that went wide had enough space for Scott to weave his magic and score.

What we need to understand is just a small amount of interference is necessary to create space for a talented player to score tries or break through gaps.

As the match went on Strokosch started becoming very bold indeed, and the off the ball interference became so obvious I was tearing my hair out at the time, by the time Jim Hamilton had his hands in Etzebeth’s face it was no longer about whether it was a foul or just a tap, it was about arrogance. The Scottish were so confident in their forward pack and nobody stopped them, not the referee up to that point and the SA forwards did nothing themselves. where are the days where we intimidate teams and do not allow them this type of over confidence?

Ultimately the Scots knew if they spoilt SA ball and with the directive of Heyneke Meyer who showed when Dean Greyling was summarily kicked out of the Springbok team after his behaviour on Richie McCaw that retaliation was not going to come.

And they revelled in it. That doesn’t mean they didn’t play rugby though, they did, with the dominance of the Scottish forwards at the breakdown there was oodles of space for this young inexperienced team to run havoc and ultimately the scots showed why they are always a threat, no matter what you think of their depth in player talent, or what you think of their international ranking, they find ways to bring you down, frustrate you and remain competitive, hence some good results for them against the SH teams in comparison to other NH based teams who should in fact have more success against us.

South Africa.

I am going to start with the players themselves, Jannie du Plessis is tired, he hasn’t had a break in rugby since I can’t remember, he played every test and every super XV match for the Sharks last year, he then also played in the semi and final of the Currie Cup last year, then this season he has played continuously without a break.

The man is physically dead on his feet, and the reason for that is simply because we don’t have another international quality tight head. The worst thing is, Coenie Oosthuizen who is a very high quality loose head is now being converted to a tight head, and sadly it is failing big time.

Marcell Coetzee has shown throughout last year that he might be seen as the mini me of Schalk Burger, but he is simply an overzealous and energetic rugby player with very little technique and poor vision. To add to that, when Kolisi came on, the physicality of the back row was poor and there were nobody to contest the ball on the ground as neither of them are fetchers in the true sense of the word.

Compare Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen to the three that played in this test and there is simply no comparison.

So the game was set, an inexperienced back row, which was not only unbalanced but also not up to the task physically and we paid the price.

What was the big negative though, was not the fact that they weren’t up to it physically, but mentally. South Africa has now been shown up three times by supposed weaker forward packs that if you learn to play to the referee you benefit, so our need to adapt is now more important than ever before.

In the 2011 RWC we got beat by a team who played to the referee, the Argentinian team in Mendoza last year did a “collective” infringement, something new being used these days, if the whole forward pack is offside at the ruck, it “looks” legal. And then the Scots did it to us in this test.

Where is the brains trust of SA rugby, how is it that me as an armchair critic have been seeing these inadequacies for the past few years, and yet the guys earning the moolas don’t?

What this test has disappointed in was the fact that it took away from the attention the young backs in Le Roux, Serfontein and JJ Engelbrecht should have gotten for showing the incredible pace now evident in our back line, the ability for Willie le Roux who has shown how he knows how to draw the defence, how to create doubt in their defensive lines and how fast our outside backs can pounce when given space.

South Africa thrives on direct hard rugby, they know how to deal with that, you look at their performances against Italy and Samoa, that is where they excel, but when some team is outsmarting them on the ground, we are severely lacking in the ability to adapt to the match situation.

Ultimately we won the match, it wasn’t one I ever thought for a moment we would lose, however on a scale of 1-10 for frustration, this one hit the red line.

Anyhow, I believe Scotland did us a huge favour, if Heyneke Meyer has not now realised that South African rugby needs to adapt, I doubt we ever will.

yes that was a particularly weird match. Good to see SA came right vs Samoa. That was impressive despite the Sa's attempts to curtail careers and potential fatherhoods.

I enjoyed the Samoa match, they played like they always do, sure they go a bit too far now and then, but you learn to live with that, I love their physicality and respect their approach to the game.

Not much there that I'd argue with at all, Biltong - welcome back

Biltong – you talk about an inexperience pack but I don’t think you can really argue that the Scot’s pack could be classed as ‘experienced’.  In the front row we had our 3rd or 4th choice loosehead, our 3rd or 4th choice hooker,  2nd row we had a guy on his 2nd cap, backrow we had a number 8 starting at 7 on his 3rd cap (who was then replaced by another number 8 who is in the single figures in terms of caps).  In a country with so limited resources that is a lot to take.

However what we did have was a Hamilton and a Strokosh – you guys desperately missed a Botha or Burger to sort them out.  I’m not saying anything illegal, but they would have been smashed out the way if they were in the way!

My personal view is that too much was made of Scots ‘cheating’ – you see those kind of things happen every match and I wouldn’t have said Scotland were doing it significantly more than normal.  One of the main reasons SA struggled was that we hit the rucks hard, in numbers and with determination.

Biltong – what do you make of the SA media’s treatment of Scotland? As in before the game we were labled as useless no hopers then after we were cheating swines.

I read that Meyer came into the Scotland changing room afterwards and apologised for the way they had been treated.

Good to have you back Biltong!

Yes, hard to disagree with anything you've said, though I still question whether Hamilton's palm to the chin was even a penalty. I question the wisdom of using the TMO to establish fault in a fight, as basically everything looks worse when slowed down. I'll concede that this is probably me seeing our own players as angels!

I agree that Scotland basically took the p**s at the breakdown, and it certainly annoys me when other teams are allowed to get away with murder (basically any time Leinster plays Glasgow). However, for years I've worried that for all our physical abrasivness, the Scots just aren't street-wise enough. Obviously there's a limit, but it's good to see us pushing the boundaries a wee bit.

Great post Bilt, as RDW pointed our Hamilton and Strokosch wrecked the breakdown with every dirty, bent and crooked trick in the book. Strokosch is a connundrum for Scotland and I think it has something to do with the French setup, I hope Hamilton doesn't suffer the same problem.

What I mean is Stroks typically does really well on summer tours for Scotland. Last season he helped us turn over the Ozzies, Fiji and Samoa in their backyards, came back in the Autumn and struggled. Perhaps something to do with the French leagues training or the intensity of their games?

What this tourney helped us with is we unearthed some really good guys. Wilson, Heathcoate, Swinson all showed us they can do well at international level, such a shame MacArthur never got his chance.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Biltong – you talk about an inexperience pack but I don’t think you can really argue that the Scot’s pack could be classed as ‘experienced’.  In the front row we had our 3rd or 4th choice loosehead, our 3rd or 4th choice hooker,  2nd row we had a guy on his 2nd cap, backrow we had a number 8 starting at 7 on his 3rd cap (who was then replaced by another number 8 who is in the single figures in terms of caps).  In a country with so limited resources that is a lot to take.

However what we did have was a Hamilton and a Strokosh – you guys desperately missed a Botha or Burger to sort them out.  I’m not saying anything illegal, but they would have been smashed out the way if they were in the way!

My personal view is that too much was made of Scots ‘cheating’ – you see those kind of things happen every match and I wouldn’t have said Scotland were doing it significantly more than normal.  One of the main reasons SA struggled was that we hit the rucks hard, in numbers and with determination.

Biltong – what do you make of the SA media’s treatment of Scotland? As in before the game we were labled as useless no hopers then after we were cheating swines.

I read that Meyer came into the Scotland changing room afterwards and apologised for the way they had been treated.

RDw, agree with you on the inexperienced Scottish team, in fact by memory I think your team had 150 caps or so amongst them.

However there is one significant difference, your guys were ready, they had a plan, inexperience wasn't a problem as the game plan was set out before hand.

If you read carefully you will notice I didn't mention cheating anywhere, it was calm, calculated and planned, then executed to a tee. They knew how to play the referee as where we had simply no clue, like the other examples I mentioned, against Australia and Argentina the same thing happened, we had no idea how to deal with it.

If I was on that field, and sadly I never will be, I would have pulled my squad together and given each arriving man at the ruck a specific task.

First arrive, what ever you do, you take care of Strokosch, nothing else matters, if he is offside you nail him, if he has hands on the ball you clear him, if he runs with the ball you hurt him and make him long for his mommy.

The second arrival, your job is to take out the man on the ball, third arrival you secure the ball, etc etc.

There was no thinking, no planning and collective mindset of how to deal with it.

As for our media, I don't really read much that comes from SA, purely because there is little that I find interesting, I can however tell you that everyone, including the Scots (read the threads here before the game) thought they were going to get a hiding.

IanBru wrote:Good to have you back Biltong!

Yes, hard to disagree with anything you've said, though I still question whether Hamilton's palm to the chin was even a penalty. I question the wisdom of using the TMO to establish fault in a fight, as basically everything looks worse when slowed down. I'll concede that this is probably me seeing our own players as angels!

I agree that Scotland basically took the p**s at the breakdown, and it certainly annoys me when other teams are allowed to get away with murder (basically any time Leinster plays Glasgow). However, for years I've worried that for all our physical abrasivness, the Scots just aren't street-wise enough. Obviously there's a limit, but it's good to see us pushing the boundaries a wee bit.

Ian as a South African I know all too well what trouble our players get for hands in the face, so sorry mate, can't agree with you there.

I thought it was going to be a cricket score. Credit where credit was due our guys weren't intimidated but credit to SA, they forced a win out when their backs were to the wall.

Any chance the boks will drop Pienaar for the RC???

I am hoping mate, but I doubt it, we have a shortage on experience at international level for halfbacks, there simply isn't anyone around with any experience, and HM is big on experience.

I am hoping too. Start a Facebook page or something will you!!

Biltong wrote:I can however tell you that everyone, including the Scots (read the threads here before the game) thought they were going to get a hiding.

I thought we were going to get a hiding too, but the media were very disrespectful, that one guy in particular!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can however tell you that everyone, including the Scots (read the threads here before the game) thought they were going to get a hiding.

I thought we were going to get a hiding too, but the media were very disrespectful, that one guy in particular!

Well the truth is everyone has that one guy who should really never have been let out of his cage.

What I can tell you is that the gentlemen in the Super sport studio was very respectful of Scotland and praised them for their performance. In my mind the only guys really worth listening to.

Biltong wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can however tell you that everyone, including the Scots (read the threads here before the game) thought they were going to get a hiding.

I thought we were going to get a hiding too, but the media were very disrespectful, that one guy in particular!

Well the truth is everyone has that one guy who should really never have been let out of his cage.  

I can't mind if it was on here or on Twitter but someone (RDW I think) said that Heyneke Meyer came in after the game and congratulated our boys in the dressing room for playing like that after all the bad press....

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can however tell you that everyone, including the Scots (read the threads here before the game) thought they were going to get a hiding.

I thought we were going to get a hiding too, but the media were very disrespectful, that one guy in particular!

Well the truth is everyone has that one guy who should really never have been let out of his cage.  

I can't mind if it was on here or on Twitter but someone (RDW I think) said that Heyneke Meyer came in after the game and congratulated our boys in the dressing room for playing like that after all the bad press....

And in my view that is where the respect is shown, not by some two bit journalist with an agenda he himself doesn't even know.

Biltong - what do you make of the tournament as a whole? Was it viewed as a success in SA? The SA game crowds were big but the other games we sparse to say the least, unsurprisingly really.

I think it is a fantastic idea - much better than playing random, one off tests in the summer.

I loved it RDW, and would like to see more of it. The format needs a bit of a relook though.

They may as well just have had a single round robin. But I suppose they wanted the element of "knock out" rugby to it.

As far as I can tell we all enjoyed it. I think the double feature can work, but SARU must find a way to get crowds in earlier though.

Because of the Lions series most people would want to watch that before going to the grounds. So perhaps having that on the big screen before hand (or any similar important series) will get the crowds in earlier.

1. I thought the Scots played a very clever game, they'd done all their homework and knew exactly where to exploit the Boks and it almost worked!

2. Jake White had some interesting comparisons to make between the mentality of Aussie players compared to Saffa players: He said SA players are very obedient and do exactly what their coaches tell them, and are unlikely to unilaterally change the game-plan on the field without the coaches directive. The Aussies are independent thinkers and they use their initiative more on the field (and probably also why they get into trouble off it).

3. To fill the stands, they need to bring the ticket prices down! R450 for a rugby match is a bit steep. Once you've included petrol, parking, beer, (braai meat if you're in Durban) it comes to over R2000 for a family to watch a match! That's beyond most families.

How much is that in pounds sterling?? 

About 140

Personally thought too much was made of Scots cheating. We have a reputation for being, as Lemonde put it a wee while ago, one of the politest packs in world rugby. The obstruction looked blatant at times, eg Dunbar on Habana, Strokosh for Wilsons pick up from the scrum base, because the team isn't used to giving themselves the license to do so. Hopefully, by the time November rolls round, it will be more sophisticated! So those two teams are on very different curves. South Africa should have played the ref, as Scotland did. It only counts as cheating if you get caught out.
Thought the TMO had a shocker; whatever his intentions, it looked bad and left a sour taste in the mouth. Hopefully neutral TMOs can be used in future; watching sport is fraught enough.
Only 4 months til round two.

Beforehand, I thought we could/would get rinsed.

furra_linee wrote:Personally thought too much was made of Scots cheating. We have a reputation for being, as Lemonde put it a wee while ago, one of the politest packs in world rugby. The obstruction looked blatant at times, eg Dunbar on Habana, Strokosh for Wilsons pick up from the scrum base, because the team isn't used to giving themselves the license to do so. Hopefully, by the time November rolls round, it will be more sophisticated! So those two teams are on very different curves.  South Africa should have played the ref, as Scotland did. It only counts as cheating if you get caught out.
Thought the TMO had a shocker; whatever his intentions, it looked bad and left a sour taste in the mouth. Hopefully neutral TMOs can be used in future; watching sport is fraught enough.
Only 4 months til round two.

I don't think I'd call Scotland cheaters. They played as far as the referee would allow and adapted well and quickly to his interpretations. In this regard they were far superior to the Boks, and it nearly won the game for Scotland! My frustration is that the Boks didn't adapt to the ref very swiftly!

RDW_Scotland wrote:How much is that in pounds sterling?? 

To put that in context: R2000 is one sixth of my net monthly salary (I'm a teacher). I can't afford that for one outing to rugby!

Oh yes, I also had another point

4. I've read several autobiographies of SA rugby personalities (eg Jake White; P Div). They all seem to have a few things in common. They can't stand Cheeky Watson; and they can't stand the SA media, whom many of them accuse of even fabricating stories just to cause a ruckus.

I thought we were going to get humped and I was dreading the match. Don't get me wrong, I'll always be there to watch the matches (in this case in the pub, so as not to fund Murdoch's criminal empire of death), but in this case, it was purely to avoid the off-chance of missing a miracle, with the likely humiliation (dulled with gin) a worthwhile price to pay.

Nice analysis biltong. I can definitely appreciate how that game would have been frustrating for SA fans. But i do think that SA were just being a bit too cute, expecting to get the ball they usually do and looking very confused when they didn't.

It's good to know Scotland did their homework well and I think The current coaching team has allowed for this to be done better than in the past. It just goes to show, the Scottish team, or any other lower ranked team, are capable of causing a big upset if the right gameplan or tactics are used effectively. The use of blocking is like the dark arts for the backs and i've noticed that since johnson arrived scotland have used this tactic more. i'm not condoning it, but as gatland has shown for wales, it can be very effective. Part of the increased streetwise play from Scotland may also come from the Glasgow warriors success in the rabbo last season. especially in defence, they had the best defence in the rabbo I believe.

I look forward to the Scotland vs SA game this autumn when hopefully Scotland and SA will be able to field a full strength sides. It'll be interesting to see how both teams perform and wether SA will approach the breakdown differently. If I were Meyer, I would simply look to blast Scotland off the field, much like they did vs England in summer 2012. Your ideology biltong, of how SA should have approached the Scotland teams tactics would certainly have worked and could well be what Meyer considers for the match in November at murrayfield.

Hi Bsando, Meyer since the start of the Super XV has been advocating that the SA franchises start adapting to the breakdown, and he was concerned with the intelligence and lack of adaptability we have been showing at the breakdowns.

I would have thought by now we would have figured out a gameplan on how to perform more consistently at the breakdown, and it is just against Scotland that it is a problem, it is a general problem of inconsistency.

Biltong wrote:Hi Bsando, Meyer since the start of the Super XV has been advocating that the SA franchises start adapting to the breakdown, and he was concerned with the intelligence and lack of adaptability we have been showing at the breakdowns.

I would have thought by now we would have figured out a gameplan on how to perform more consistently at the breakdown, and it is just against Scotland that it is a problem, it is a general problem of inconsistency.

SA seem to still be a bit inconsistent in in selection in the backrow, which doesn't really help them decide on a strategy.

Who do you think should be the SA starting backrow? They have so many options but apart from Alberts, none of them have really looked a class above like the SA backrows used to be.

On the other hand, it looks like SA have finally remembered how to score tries.

IanBru wrote:I thought we were going to get humped and I was dreading the match. Don't get me wrong, I'll always be there to watch the matches (in this case in the pub, so as not to fund Murdoch's criminal empire of death), but in this case, it was purely to avoid the off-chance of missing a miracle, with the likely humiliation (dulled with gin) a worthwhile price to pay.

What channel was the pub showing the game, if not Sky Sports?

wales606 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Hi Bsando, Meyer since the start of the Super XV has been advocating that the SA franchises start adapting to the breakdown, and he was concerned with the intelligence and lack of adaptability we have been showing at the breakdowns.

I would have thought by now we would have figured out a gameplan on how to perform more consistently at the breakdown, and it is just against Scotland that it is a problem, it is a general problem of inconsistency.

SA seem to still be a bit inconsistent in in selection in the backrow, which doesn't really help them decide on a strategy.

Who do you think should be the SA starting backrow? They have so many options but apart from Alberts, none of them have really looked a class above like the SA backrows used to be.

On the other hand, it looks like SA have finally remembered how to score tries.

Well Heyneke Meyer had to experiment last year, and finally ended up with Louw, Alberts and Vermeulen by November. You must remember losing a backrow of Bruger, Juan Smit and Danie Rossouw isn't easily replaced.

Problem this year has been injuries. Vermeulen is injured, Frans Louw got married on the day of the match vs Scotland, Now Pierre spies is out for the season. Arno Botha is out for the most part of the season.

At this point if everyone was available I would pick Louw, Botha and Vermeulen, but isn't going to happen any time soon.

Bilt, we were missing a lot of our 1st choice backrowers too. When we played SA We were a really depleted outfit.

In the forwards alone we were missing Grant, Ford, MacArthur, Gray, Rennie, Brown that's a lot of big players for us!

Agree RuggerRadge, it was by far not the best team Scotland could put out, however they preparation for this match was superb in comparison to Meyer's.

Good to see you back, Bilts.
I am a bit surprised what you say about Kolisi. I thought he was the great white hope (figuratively speaking obviously!). I have thought he looks good when I have seen him on TV. Is he not that highly regarded in SA?
What did surprise me about SA against us was the lack of intensity and almost a willingness to accept being bullied. I have not seen that from a SA team before. Maybe just a bit early in the international season for full intensity?
Overall, it was actually quite a good game to watch, I thought. For a match involving Scotland, it had a good amount of open play.
Totally agree with you about the whole concept being a good idea. Do this and, for example, the PI nations get 3 matches against their peer group and/or better.

Hi injured, Kolisi is highly rated, but he is still very green, I rate him much better than Coetzee who in my view is really just a Duracell bunny that runs around but not achieving much.

In this case the combination just didn't work and that is why there was such a lack of physicality at the breakdown.

If you add Juandre Kruger to the mix as well then half our forward pack are not the usual bruisers we have on the field.

Let me say the game was intriguing, not enjoyable from a SA perspective though.

Biltong wrote:Hi injured, Kolisi is highly rated, but he is still very green,

Again figuratively speaking!

You mentioned Danie Roussouw. I am a huge fan of his. Despite saying that, have I missed that has he retired or something? He must be one of the unluckiest players timing wise to arrive at the same time as a whole heap if SA back rowers. He did get quite a few caps but a lot of them as sub, I think. Why couldn't he have been born over here?

Yeah he was quite unfortunate, made about sixty caps though. He now plays with Bakkies in France, both retired from international rugby though.