Face the facts.

I know we all support our teams with the passion of a first love, it is something or should I say someone you never forget, even if we move countries (well if I had to) we would still support our teams with the same passions.

It is high treason not to (well for some). But as much as we are passionate and optimistic at times how many of us are realists? Or is reality too far removed from what we would like to believe that we simply ignore the realities and build walls around the criticisms and doubters?

For me being a realist I often find myself very critical about the Springboks, and I must admit even amongst South Africans who are passionate about the Boks I rarely find someone who loves to talk Springbok rugby as often as I do, I find it a challenge to find supporters who knows our players as well and could tell you their weaknesses or strengths.

I look at our situation and think back to the days when we had a record superior to any nation against us with a longing memory of pride and trepidation. It only serves one purpose and that is to fire me up and make me want to rebel against the rugby administration in our country. I sometimes wish I chose a different path and went into journalism just so I could voice my criticisms on a public media format read by the all and sundry in SA, sadly the only format available are rugby forums read by people form other countries in the main and rarely cares whether we are on a downward spiral or not.

Anyway, for me the importance of not pulling an ostrich and sticking my head in the sand ignoring the realities of our situation is vital in not BS'ing myself when it comes to our chances of beating opponents or winning tournaments.

I probably over analyse the situation more than I should and can at times be very critical to the point where I want to slap the toffee out of someone, but hell that is who I am. Passion for your team doesn't disappear in the bad times, in fact I think that is when our disappointment provide us with more passion and creates a laager mentality to draw inward and begin the analysis in all earnest.

The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

In our case, I have little faith that we will win the Rugby Championship this year, will be too soon for us to compete in the next RWC simply because we are effectively starting over from scratch.

Bilt,

When it comes to criticism then as long as its constructive I am happy top listen to what others have to say its the ones who spout stuff without knowledge or facts that I ignore.

As on to Wales then I think we will be regular challengers in the 6 Nations for the next few years.

With regards to the WC I honestly think we will get out of our group, not sure at whose expense.

What I really want to see us achieve between now and then is regular wins over the big SH boys and no more gallant losers, we most probably have the most settled side out of all the NH teams at the moment so in the development re building stages excuse cannot be used.

Agree bedfordwelsh, constructive criticism is what I am referring to, not the wummers, plonkers and fools.

Good post Bill

Though consider how a team is perceived from another nation. We who are of nations regularly below the top three ranked sides in the IRB table look up to those who are. We rarely ever beat them, if we do, it is invariably a one off with certain circumstance attached contributing. So we judge ourselves on teams we play that are a more regular medium.

For a fan of a team inside the top three you would be confident playing lower ranked sides home and away, though less confident playing teams of a similar or higher ranking.

So you have to consider the perspective of that posters nationality and how they can realistically judge progress.

Bilts I feel exactly the same old bean.
 

Agree Maes, but you didn't answer the question though.

rodders wrote:Bilts I feel exactly the same old bean.
 

Most of you Irish do mate. Overanalytical poor sods.  

I think most posters, certainly in discussions, over-egg their teams potential with complete disregard for results.

England beat New Zealand - and suddenly hope and expectation is increased way above the level it should be, with everyone forgetting the performances in South Africa.

Wales, so long as there are not too many injuries, are able to win most matches with NH opponents. their record against SH opponents (and not just the top 3) is poor but tends to be ignored.

Scotland are the reverse, they have a half decent record against SA and Australia - which never seems to translate into more than the odd win against anyone else. Yet every season the expectation is there.

Ireland - well I am too scared to go into that situation



As to my own thoughts on England, we are decent but nothing special. 12 wins from 15 matches in the last three 6 nations championships demonstrates that. The nature of those 3 losses is the disheartening fact (along with the losses to SA). When we come face to face with an all out physical assault we tend to wilt. That needs to change and change quickly.

I feel that other teams fans really underestimate the abilities of our players. (Hell we do it ourself too at times). Often this is in reaction to the overhyping we see from Sky TV.

Our coach needs to select specialists and our players need to lose some of their callowness. My overwhelming fear is that RWC2015 may come along a year too early. I do firmly believe though that with home advantage we shoudl be expecting to win our group.

Biltong wrote:

rodders wrote:Bilts I feel exactly the same old bean.
 

Most of you Irish do mate. Overanalytical poor sods.  

There's plenty to overanalyse over here Bilts!  

I find much of the "discussions" between us English fans go down to club bias aswell.

Sarries fans defend their players, Leicester fans defend they're players and everyone just slates my Falcons lads  

Biltong
At the end of last year when the ABs played the Boks down in Dunedin, sure the ABs won but they were beaten in every other aspect of rugby, that told me a lot about South Africa at the moment,and I think you also saw that and would have drawn a lot of optimism from that game.

I dont think us Kiwis are blissfully ignorant of reality, and there are a couple of reasons why I think so.
Firstly we dont really care when players or coaches go over seas to earn a bit of money, and I can assure you that there are a lot of Kiwis playing rugby round the World.

secondly, Ive heard it (well read it really) that New Zealanders are spoilt rugby fans because the All Blacks are so successful, and that we just hang of the apron strings and arrogantly take every bit of mileage that we can out of that success. Well most kiwis I know realise that because of our standing we have a responsibility to promote and grow rugby, and theres allways the point of view, Whats to be gained by being top of the tree if the tree is dying?

Between you and me Bilts I think quite a few of our players are total garbage, the grassroots system is an omnishambles which is 100 years out of date, the HEC is an elephant in the room, the IRFU and their acolyte journos are all crooks, con men and charlatans and the country is full of deluded naval gazers with their heads in the sand.

Thats just between you and me though .

GeordieFalcon wrote:I find much of the "discussions" between us English fans go down to club bias aswell.

Sarries fans defend their players, Leicester fans defend they're players and everyone just slates my Falcons lads  

slates? right letters but surely you mean steals

Surely you can't know that you're blissfully ignorant

I think the main thing is that people need to realise that there are two sides to every story!

I hope I always see the bigger picture when I post. If my countrymen are slating off Nick De Luca for constantly dropping the ball, I'll often pipe up with "yeah, but he is great at putting Visser into space to score"

Every team/player has good points and bad points!

Cyril wrote:Surely you can't know that you're blissfully ignorant

Yes you can.

It is something you use to lie to yourself, but late at night when you go to bed your subconscious has that little chat with you, and you promise tomorrow you won't be blissfully ignorant, but as you open you laptop and get going, the hype of your fellow countrymen soon have you in the same mind set as the day before, and the day before that.

Biltong wrote:

The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

In our case, I have little faith that we will win the Rugby Championship this year, will be too soon for us to compete in the next RWC simply because we are effectively starting over from scratch.

Yes, we are realistic about our team.  It needs a lot of expensive dental work to get its gnashers into ship shape again.  Rather like Shane MacGowan before he had his done.
Do we ignore opinions and criticisms of others?  Yes - especially the comically positive ones that we were hearing through the Kidney years:  "Kidney is a very good coach he just has terrible players.  Why do you lot always blame him?  He's not on the field, knocking on, missing tackles, kicking away ball, doing random no chase box kicking etc, etc.  Leave him alone, yous have a star of a coach that got you your only Slam in 2000 years and that's the thanks he gets?"

Yeah, that's the thanks he gets, and he's lucky it was just a resignation letter to sign.  So, yep, we are guilty of ignoring the opinions of others... if laughing can be called ignoring, that is.
We have a long way to go to get back on terms with the best sides in Europe, and with Scotland gaining Cotter next year and Italy pushing on, that could be more difficult than even we contemplate.  

What we want first is simply an improvement of the product.  We want what the Australian's stated they now want after getting rid of Deans, a game that suggests we're getting our priorities right again.  A much more attack minded game, a more consistent desire to push our game on the opponent rather than so willingly sucking up the opponent's game and tempo.  If we start to look like a dangerous team again, then we'll be half way there.  It'll take time though, we all realise that.

WC competitiveness? Not so sure Schmidt will have enough time and then I'm not sure he'll hang around after the WC either, so putting some shape back into the Irish side is the best we can wish for between now and WC.

Hey Biltong-good thread mate. Gets you thinking.

I reckon we naturally view our teams with rose tinted glasses and I suppose get a bit uppity and have a FY attitude to posters criticising our team. But you just have to appreciate that as it is from a different perspective than a fan/supporter of your team (if the criticism is balanced, informed and not antagonistic) and they might offer you an angle you didn't think of previously. That I appreciate.

As a Kiwi I like to think most of my compatriots and I am just as critical if not more of NZ than non-Kiwis because we're at the top of the tree and want to stay ahead of the game. Preempting things is a way to do it-if you don't keep analysing ways to get better you fall behind. I suppose this makes us such sourpusses at times as our team does ridiculously good things more than any other nation. But I hate it when another team is the best in the world. NZ's win percentage before apartheid overall may have been as good if not better than SA's but it was irrelevant-they had the head to head against us and we were a so rugby minded and b so desperate to change this that we mixed sport and politics with at times disastrous results. Sorry for digressing.

There is a holier than thou NZ knows best in rugby because we and SA have been top of the tree for so long. But teams are only inches apart when it comes to test rugby and I recall all too well the barren years of 98-04 as well as the four-yearly mental breakdown. I know if things are well structured and the players are coached well then we'll usually be at the top. I worry about the record when SA gets its house in order but also welcome it as it will produce better rugby. I want every team to play well against us-I just want us to play better. I think arrogance shows itself when I think we can smash every team we play. Maybe that's just from being at the top where NZ isn't in a lot of other sports. Hell I support the Hurricanes so I know the other side too.

4N prediction would have been Australia before the Lions. I think it could be the same actually-because McKenzie is at the helm. It will refresh them and get the best out of the players. I'd have said a series win would have given them confidence too but without that a coaching change was the only way to get them fizzing again. But I reckon it'll be even especially with SA and Aussie having better luck with injury. To be honest I think our record flattered us last year and this year will give a more accurate barometer.

I think there's part of me thats very rational about my team, and part of me thats very not.

And when I have a cool head and I'm not very emotional I can be rational about our strengths and weaknesses and expectations and the more emotional I get (i.e. emotionall charged debate with other fans, proximity to a big game like the Pro12 final just passed) the more the passionate, blinkered side of me takes over.

I find it easier to be rational about Ireland than Ulster because there's more distance there from the day to day. Probably more cynicism and less passion where international rugby is concerned. But then, get into a selection debate over one of our lads who I think should be in the Ireland side and that blinkered side starts coming back strongly...

I think it's all bound up with one's personality. Myself, I'm a glass half-empty, Eeyorish pessimist who can always find a trace of cloud poking out behind the brightest of silver linings. It therefore follows that I can easily spot the shortcomings in the sides that I follow. I will, however, become defensive when others point out the same shortcomings to me. I shall do the hand-wringing, thank you.

The personal pessimism does make any successes all the sweeter for a brief moment. The snag is that I immediately worry that it can't last.

SecretFly wrote:  

What we want first is simply an improvement of the product.  We want what the Australian's stated they now want after getting rid of Deans, a game that suggests we're getting our priorities right again.  A much more attack minded game, a more consistent desire to push our game on the opponent rather than so willingly sucking up the opponent's game and tempo.  If we start to look like a dangerous team again, then we'll be half way there.  It'll take time though, we all realise that.

WC competitiveness?  Not so sure Schmidt will have enough time and then I'm not sure he'll hang around after the WC either, so putting some shape back into the Irish side is the best we can wish for between now and WC.

FLy, I believe that in many senses the cliché of more attacking rugby is just that, a cliché.

Attacking in rugby has taken a number of steps back over the past few years, the breakdown and the manner in which it is contested, legally and illegally has slowed down ball, it has allowed defences to organise better than ever before, in many ways rugby is more of a forward wrestling match than ten years ago.

These days we regularly see 20 plus phases and still teams do not find ways to breach the lines. Cover defence has also improved a lot over this time.

If you want to look at tests and the manner in which tries are scored it comes either from set phases where half the defence is pulled into either a scrum or a line out, but it comes from an individualistic play or counter attack. That is the mainstay of the "entertainment" we seek in rugby.

Only teams who manage quick ball at rucks and have the ability to offload in contact manage to create holes and breach the lines. Other than that rugby is not the entertaining sport we all so foolishly beg for.

Variation in attack comes from space, space is created by quick ball which provides players time, nothing else.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I think it's all bound up with one's personality. Myself, I'm a glass half-empty, Eeyorish pessimist who can always find a trace of cloud poking out behind the brightest of silver linings. It therefore follows that I can easily spot the shortcomings in the sides that I follow. I will, however, become defensive when others point out the same shortcomings to me. I shall do the hand-wringing, thank you.

The personal pessimism does make any successes all the sweeter for a brief moment. The snag is that I immediately worry that it can't last.

Best answer so far. "I shall do the hand-wringing, thank you"

i think passion about your team and players can make u blind to the facts . lots of posters slated good rugby players in the lions because they wanted their average kinsman in the side . corbs sob and sexton had a good game third test but my fellow Welshman beside me watching the game could only praise the Welsh players . i try to be objective on here but some people just wear blinkers . Im one of Philips biggest fans but he had to come off .there too much your player rubbish and mine better without any real argument .

I like to think I'm realistic about my expectations with Wales, we're at the point now where we are competitive with all the NH teams. And are starting to be more competitive on a consistent basis with the SH. We did have a bad autumn last year but I dont think it has been too damaging to the teams confidence.

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:Surely you can't know that you're blissfully ignorant

Yes you can.

It is something you use to lie to yourself, but late at night when you go to bed your subconscious has that little chat with you, and you promise tomorrow you won't be blissfully ignorant, but as you open you laptop and get going, the hype of your fellow countrymen soon have you in the same mind set as the day before, and the day before that.

I guess. Though i does sound like you need to spend some time on Ruby's couch

Whenever there is a player rating thread I tend to look at the ratings first and guess the allegiance of the the poster.A very easy illuminating little exercise which highlights in the main the inherent bias of most posters.
Agendas tend to prevail and "debates" between entrenched closed minds often turn to rancour.
The sad postings from folk who seemed to want the Lions to fail morphed into postings that the Lions should have won 3-0 and so Gatland had fallen short.Pretty predictable stuff.
I often stop myself posting a valedictory contribution relating to Toby or Dan as I do not want to add to the "fan of Club X sings praises of player from Club X shocker" as it is pretty tedious stuff.
I can take comfort that Welsh posters appear a lot more balanced and reasonable than other nationalities!Yet another moral victory notched up!

Taffineastbourne wrote:I can take comfort that Welsh posters appear a lot more balanced and reasonable than other nationalities!

Nice bit of humour there

Taffineastbourne wrote:I can take comfort that Welsh posters appear a lot more balanced and reasonable than other nationalities!

  ...  ....

FLy, I believe that in many senses the cliché of more attacking rugby is just that, a cliché.

Attacking in rugby has taken a number of steps back over the past few years, the breakdown and the manner in which it is contested, legally and illegally has slowed down ball, it has allowed defences to organise better than ever before, in many ways rugby is more of a forward wrestling match than ten years ago.

These days we regularly see 20 plus phases and still teams do not find ways to breach the lines. Cover defence has also improved a lot over this time.

If you want to look at tests and the manner in which tries are scored it comes either from set phases where half the defence is pulled into either a scrum or a line out, but it comes from an individualistic play or counter attack. That is the mainstay of the "entertainment" we seek in rugby.

Only teams who manage quick ball at rucks and have the ability to offload in contact manage to create holes and breach the lines. Other than that rugby is not the entertaining sport we all so foolishly beg for.

Variation in attack comes from space, space is created by quick ball which provides players time, nothing else.

Well let me explain what I mean, Biltong, because from an Irish perspective it's not nearly so complicated to turn from a largely defensive shaped game to a more attacking version.  Ireland are losing and therefore there is no risk in changing emphasis - we might just go on losing for a time but at least our players will be practicing a more bullish game.
Three aspects of Ireland's game kinda define how Kidney (and his other coaches) chose to play.  

One was kicking away ball needlessly when in possession and under no pressure.  You are simply returning ball to sides that want it and have systems ready to exploit the gift.  Ireland were repeat offenders of lazily kicking ball into space for it to be hoovered up by sides willing to run and therefore giving those sides space to get momentum behind their strike running ambitions.  Suicide.  Everyone back defending.

Two was related to one in that you must at least chase with some design or intent if you're going to kick away ball so heedlessly.  You must be willing to offer a positive to a negative tactic.  Ireland were again repeat offenders of not chasing after their give away ball with any consistency.  No, they'd hang back (under defensive shape orders) and wait for the attacking drive of the opponents after giving them momentum by not closing down the space.  Everyone back into defensive posture again.

Three, prolonged phases making no headway is still possession that can be used with a little invention to keep pushing up field.  You can always sneekily tap in behind and have players chasing it down, you can always tap to a corner and give yourself a shot at stealing a lineout deep in opposition territory.  Saying space is hard to come by is no argument for kicking away possession aimlessly or indeed see-sawing phases together aimlessly.  You don't have time in 80 minutes to be so cavalier with possession or so conservative in possession.  

That's what I mean about Ireland in particular changing its habits and becoming less defensive minded.

Taffineastbourne wrote:
I can take comfort that Welsh posters appear a lot more balanced and reasonable than other nationalities!Yet another moral victory notched up!

  

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:Surely you can't know that you're blissfully ignorant

Yes you can.

It is something you use to lie to yourself, but late at night when you go to bed your subconscious has that little chat with you, and you promise tomorrow you won't be blissfully ignorant, but as you open you laptop and get going, the hype of your fellow countrymen soon have you in the same mind set as the day before, and the day before that.

I guess. Though i does sound like you need to spend some time on Ruby's couch

I just completed my long recovery on the couch after our RWC loss, where do you think my realism comes from?  

I recognize that I am overly critical of my team and know that a convincing performance is not always possible. The SA game in Dunedin is a case in point. Frankly we deserved to lose that game and the fact we won didn't change that view. My criticism was a reflection of the belief that if we played like that again we would lose. Strangely when we do lose I seem to be more accepting of that and recognize the opponent's contribution rather than dwell on our shortcomings.

In a way my attitude stems from the impossibly high standards the coaching staff and players set themselves. Part of that comes from public expectation but part of it comes from a desire to continue the legacy.

I think most Kiwis reacted well to the England defeat. If it happens again it could be a problem simply because that threatens the concept of supremacy. As if it were a right! So I fully understand your way of thinking Biltong.

Biltong wrote:
The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

Realistic: Sometimes. I waiver between outright confidence, uncertainty and fear. I have to be on the ball sometimes. Being a Kiwi, much of the last decade has been good. That doesn't mean you don't respect other sides abilities, and worry about your own weaknesses.

Rugby's such a small game that all of us must be aware of the stereotypes. Having lived overseas I'm very much aware of the perceived issues with various AB's sides. I probably have a laager mentality.

Interesting post. I've been reading the Australian press and social media. There's a wide range of views on their loss against the Lions. The issues with their coach, selection, technique and the opposition. I really like the breadth and depth and discussion. I find the same when I view the South African press. There is of course the whingeing you get everywhere, but it is counterpoised by opposing arguments in some quarters. I feel there is the same here. I see the same to a more limited extent in the Irish press. I don't see it in the Welsh or English press.

Am I being a bit harsh?

Cyril wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I can take comfort that Welsh posters appear a lot more balanced and reasonable than other nationalities!

Nice bit of humour there

We do try to lighten things a bit:yahoo: 

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I can take comfort that Welsh posters appear a lot more balanced and reasonable than other nationalities!

Nice bit of humour there

We do try to lighten things a bit:yahoo: 

 

good to see you lot getting along.  

blackcanelion wrote:

Biltong wrote:
The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

Realistic: Sometimes. I waiver between outright confidence, uncertainty and fear. I have to be on the ball sometimes. Being a Kiwi, much of the last decade has been good. That doesn't mean you don't respect other sides abilities, and worry about your own weaknesses.

Rugby's such a small game that all of us must be aware of the stereotypes. Having lived overseas I'm very much aware of the perceived issues with various AB's sides. I probably have a laager mentality.

Interesting post. I've been reading the Australian press and social media. There's a wide range of views on their loss against the Lions. The issues with their coach, selection, technique and the opposition. I really like the breadth and depth and discussion. I find the same when I view the South African press. There is of course the whingeing you get everywhere, but it is counterpoised by opposing arguments in some quarters. I feel there is the same here. I see the same to a more limited extent in the Irish press. I don't see it in the Welsh or English press.  

Am I being a bit harsh?

I don't know bc, kia...are we paying lip service these days? Be honest...do we fear anyone these days? We talk about respect and the rising abilities of this side and that, but reality is our tests are now a matter of points differential. Our record these days is such that in terms of consistency everyone pales.

I dont have the answer anymore for other sides but year after year we hear about the gap closing. new starts etc but nothing happens...other than the odd one off. I was about to say hopefully this year things will change...but in all honesty..I dont think it will. Am I that wrong?

Taylorman wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Biltong wrote:
The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

Realistic: Sometimes. I waiver between outright confidence, uncertainty and fear. I have to be on the ball sometimes. Being a Kiwi, much of the last decade has been good. That doesn't mean you don't respect other sides abilities, and worry about your own weaknesses.

Rugby's such a small game that all of us must be aware of the stereotypes. Having lived overseas I'm very much aware of the perceived issues with various AB's sides. I probably have a laager mentality.

Interesting post. I've been reading the Australian press and social media. There's a wide range of views on their loss against the Lions. The issues with their coach, selection, technique and the opposition. I really like the breadth and depth and discussion. I find the same when I view the South African press. There is of course the whingeing you get everywhere, but it is counterpoised by opposing arguments in some quarters. I feel there is the same here. I see the same to a more limited extent in the Irish press. I don't see it in the Welsh or English press.  

Am I being a bit harsh?

I don't know bc, kia...are we paying lip service these days? Be honest...do we fear anyone these days? We talk about respect and the rising abilities of this side and that, but reality is our tests are now a matter of points differential. Our record these days is such that in terms of consistency everyone pales.

I dont have the answer anymore for other sides but year after year we hear about the gap closing. new starts etc but nothing happens...other than the odd one off. I was about to say hopefully this year things will change...but in all honesty..I dont think it will. Am I that wrong?

Well, did the All Blacks expect England?  Yes, they were at the end of a season - fatigue, and perhaps a touch of alleged illness in camp, but people tend to set aside excuses when talking about games of the past - rarely do we all have time for "but we didn't have our number 1 lock in that game" etc.

So England took the All Blacks.  Didn't just win either.  Put the boot in.  
The Lions.  Some of us here in the NH were saying the Lions should win the tests easily...because we believe the players are there amongst the 4 Unions to make it so.  It didn't happen that way but neither did many SH observers ever suspect a third game performance like the one offered.  They were expecting a weak Australia to still have more than the huffing and puffing but nothing-much-to-see Lions.  
The Lions proved some of us right, using the right tactics... not many SH observers saw it coming.

The JWC.  Who won?  Who destroyed the New Zealand team along the way?  Who else was in the final?  Did that other side not also beat New Zealand the previous year in the same competition.  Whatever else that might be in theory, it's certainly progress in practice.

Now, given too that a good few of the Lions players came from JWC sides themselves (Warburton, Halfpenny, Davies and others) you can begin to make the connection between what's coming down the line and what is there at present.
Wales destroyed England, who punished New Zealand.  New Zealand came away with three victories over France.  France was last place in this year's 6N (Down where Italy usually sit) So perspective through the year would suggest things haven't exactly stayed the same.  There is movement.

That gap.  All evidence does point to the fact that it is closing, however slowly.

ok, I have one Irishman saying the 3rd test was simply the end of a long season, another saying we got destroyed in the last match(by not quite as much I might add)...does that not apply to NZ? We had won every trophy, every test bar a dead rubber draw vs oz? perhaps not?

I don't see the gap is closing. In fact its probably increasing.

JWC would say different,methinks.

I am cut from the same cloth as captain carrantuohil - despite the 'relative' success of Wales in recent years I am hyper critical of the performances, WRU, structures etc etc etc. I get as angry with my rose tinted fellow Welshman as I do the more bitter English wums.

Sometimes I need a gentle reminder that we actually won !!

Taffineastbourne wrote:JWC would say different,methinks.

I hope so...but somehow I can't see it. From what I've heard other sides are only now sending their best...we always have.

Taylorman wrote:ok, I have one Irishman saying the 3rd test was simply the end of a long season, another saying we got destroyed in the last match(by not quite as much I might add)...does that not apply to NZ? We had won every trophy, every test bar a dead rubber draw vs oz? perhaps not?

I don't see the gap is closing. In fact its probably increasing.

I'm working on the premise of your argument, Taylor. Let's keep to the premise. The premise is the All Blacks are infinitely better than the worst of the NH,and much better than the best of them. New Zealand expected to and got their three from three out of the Irish. It doesn't matter what Irishman is claiming a long season (not me I hasten to add). Ireland isn't the All Blacks...excuses remain excuses.

Are New Zealand a team that should require a long-season excuse (you'll see I already give them a few excuses)? But I've also stated they're the last Nation that should be calling on excuses as they are allegedly so far ahead of the rest that they should still be making their power felt against a NH side... end of season or not. Surely that's the theory? If it's not the theory and they admit that they can be vulnerable with some top players out or after a long season, then the truth is that they are not so far ahead of the rest as you claimed.

If some of the English and Welsh lads can get through the system and gain some more experience before the next WC you may be in for a bit of a surprise.

you tell me fly...what is the motivation when all you do is win...and win...and win... and everyone and their dog wants to knock you off...but...still...you keep winning...and winning.. and when theres no more trophies to be won...yet you still...keep winning...and winning.

You have no idea of what that concept is. The ABs face that situation regularly. go figure.

Taylorman wrote:you tell me fly...what is the motivation when all you do is win...and win...and win... and everyone and their dog wants to knock you off...but...still...you keep winning...and winning.. and when theres no more trophies to be won...yet you still...keep winning...and winning.

You have no idea of what that concept is. The ABs face that situation regularly. go figure.

Again, not the point.  Go back over my posts over the years and you'll find me equally and logically defending the All Blacks from some pretty silly arguments against them that crop up from time to time.  I greatly admire the All Blacks.  Who couldn't who isn't already a bitter bastarde who can't take the supremacy.

But this isn't an admiration thread and it's not the point.  And your forceful put-down isn't the point.  You said the gap isn't closing, I said on evidence it is.  It might stop closing, it might fade away again, it might be yet another false dawn...but the point is the evidence says the gap is closing...for now, in this short window.  The long term projections are for long term history and they'll be proven or disproven by history.  For now, the gap certainly isn't static....or as static as it has been in recent years.

I'll deal in facts, you deal in put-down emotions and assume a judgement based on logic to be an insult.  You see how easy it is to feel insulted?  Now you know what the Lions gig is all about as we're all told to get behind the team by confused SHers.

ok..heres the facts...
the ABs have the World cup, Rugby champship, bledisloe cup.
last year beat SA, Oz and Arg twice each and Ireland 3 times without a loss to any of them.

We had one solitary loss in the last game and a draw vs oz when nothing was on either other than the win. Though the Hillary trophy went to England.

We had an average score of 33-14 at 4 tries to 1 for the season.

Based on that, and feel free to bring in other sides stats, how is the gap closing?  of course based on the 'facts' that you deal with.

I don't see any evidence of any gap closing and if it is its down more to  Japan and Europe pinching top SH players than any improvements in NH rugby.
 
The fact is it took Europes best side to be bolstered by players from 3 other tier 1 nations to beat the worst of the Tri-nations 2-1 in a 3 test series.
 
NZ comfortably took France to the cleaners and SA walked the quadnation thing.
 
The only thing keeping Europe at the races at all is inconsistant refereeing across the hemispheres and the absence of a standard global rugby season.

SecretFly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Biltong wrote:
The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

Realistic: Sometimes. I waiver between outright confidence, uncertainty and fear. I have to be on the ball sometimes. Being a Kiwi, much of the last decade has been good. That doesn't mean you don't respect other sides abilities, and worry about your own weaknesses.

Rugby's such a small game that all of us must be aware of the stereotypes. Having lived overseas I'm very much aware of the perceived issues with various AB's sides. I probably have a laager mentality.

Interesting post. I've been reading the Australian press and social media. There's a wide range of views on their loss against the Lions. The issues with their coach, selection, technique and the opposition. I really like the breadth and depth and discussion. I find the same when I view the South African press. There is of course the whingeing you get everywhere, but it is counterpoised by opposing arguments in some quarters. I feel there is the same here. I see the same to a more limited extent in the Irish press. I don't see it in the Welsh or English press.  

Am I being a bit harsh?

I don't know bc, kia...are we paying lip service these days? Be honest...do we fear anyone these days? We talk about respect and the rising abilities of this side and that, but reality is our tests are now a matter of points differential. Our record these days is such that in terms of consistency everyone pales.

I dont have the answer anymore for other sides but year after year we hear about the gap closing. new starts etc but nothing happens...other than the odd one off. I was about to say hopefully this year things will change...but in all honesty..I dont think it will. Am I that wrong?

Well, did the All Blacks expect England?  Yes, they were at the end of a season - fatigue, and perhaps a touch of alleged illness in camp, but people tend to set aside excuses when talking about games of the past - rarely do we all have time for "but we didn't have our number 1 lock in that game" etc.

So England took the All Blacks.  Didn't just win either.  Put the boot in.  
The Lions.  Some of us here in the NH were saying the Lions should win the tests easily...because we believe the players are there amongst the 4 Unions to make it so.  It didn't happen that way but neither did many SH observers ever suspect a third game performance like the one offered.  They were expecting a weak Australia to still have more than the huffing and puffing but nothing-much-to-see Lions.  
The Lions proved some of us right, using the right tactics... not many SH observers saw it coming.

The JWC.  Who won?  Who destroyed the New Zealand team along the way?  Who else was in the final?  Did that other side not also beat New Zealand the previous year in the same competition.  Whatever else that might be in theory, it's certainly progress in practice.

Now, given too that a good few of the Lions players came from JWC sides themselves (Warburton, Halfpenny, Davies and others) you can begin to make the connection between what's coming down the line and what is there at present.
Wales destroyed England, who punished New Zealand.  New Zealand came away with three victories over France.  France was last place in this year's 6N (Down where Italy usually sit) So perspective through the year would suggest things haven't exactly stayed the same.  There is movement.

That gap.  All evidence does point to the fact that it is closing, however slowly.

Nice comments there, however a few I don't fully agree with.

The number of players that come through to their international senior sides are par for the course, it is supposed to happen that way for all nations.

Gap, NZ has had a better win rate over the past decade than ever before, Gap closing?

JWC is what it is, It has become more competitive and that is great, still doesn't prove anything unless it becomes a trend.

Taylorman. I have my doubts.

We've had a good run and a good history. But every year one of things I think about is have teams improved. The run will end at some point and someone else will be top of the pile.

I'm not sure the gap has closed. It might have. It's still essentially British run game. We face some challenges that some other sides face less often. We still stand on the back of a pretty good post world cup run. A single loss and some good victories (people forget that the size of victories over France would be considered big/huge by nations north of the equator).

I think Fly you have a point about junior talent. We are facing a potential sustainability crisis. We have the equivalent of the Welsh provinces playing overseas, with a large number of coaches, assistant coaches etc. At the same time we are getting increasing pressure from rugby league for our top young talent. I think the under 20's is going to be problematic for us going forward. With the loss of the u19's. We only have the schoolboys and their annual game against Australia.

Hi Rodders, perhaps I'm a bit tired of pointing these things out but its getting to the point where I miss the genuine competition. The Boks and Oz have tailed off the last few years and if anything a gaps been placed between us and them.

I miss the terror the Boks used to give me and the thrill and skill of the Wallabies. Somethings missing in the NH and it always has other than that freak side in 2002/03.

In looking at the Lions tour/ super xv all I can see is another RC title this year, but his time because SA is building blocks and Oz are in dissarray over Deans, JOC, Beale and Quade etc.