Is anybody a fan of catchweight??

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 10, 2011 7:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

CATCHWEIGHT ...Certainly been interesting back in the 80's with say Spinks-Hagler at 168 or something....Curry-Hagler at 155...Bramble-Nelson at 132....To me however it just seems wrong to fight for a title at 147 etc and force a guy to come in at a lower weight.....Now I'm not having a pop at Manny as guys like Leonard, Mayweather etc have all been guilty of this.......

Maybe if Robbo had forced Maxim in at a lower weight he would now be the undisputed number 1 etc...Certainly swap him for Ali had he done so!!

I don't know I just think we've had weight limits for years and years....tampering to gain an edge on someone seems wrong...fight him at the limit!!

On the otherhand we've probably had fights we wouldn't have had.....Double edged sword....

But maybe it's at too bigger price...

Catchweight is not for me...but is anybody a fan???

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 7:48 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Limitless was reasonable, not sure if it is still showing. Definately worth a watch.

I might find a cheap copy somewhere. Despicable Me was good, same with How to train your Dragon. And Four Lions. The Fighter and True Grit I thought were OK but overrated.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed May 11, 2011 7:49 pm

The Other Guys with Matt Damon and Will Ferrell was a funny film.

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 7:49 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
oxring wrote:Hang on - how is it Mannys fight the fight was for a title? Blame the WBCmafia, surely

2 pounds made no difference in all likelihood - twas there to try and gain an additional advantage (an unnecessary one IMO). Cotto could have said no. He didn't - end of story.

Its not the end of the story. The WBO threatened to strip him if he didnt sign, Cotto was quoted as saying he wanted 147. He was backed into a corner.

Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it.
They are egotistical.

Do you think who walks into the ring last matters?

That still kind of indicates that the fighters believe there to he an advantage to be had in 'winning' these minor concessions.

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 7:50 pm

prettyboykev wrote:The Other Guys with Matt Damon and Will Ferrell was a funny film.

Wasn't that Mark Wahlberg?

by Lumbering_Jack Wed May 11, 2011 7:51 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
oxring wrote:Hang on - how is it Mannys fight the fight was for a title? Blame the WBCmafia, surely

2 pounds made no difference in all likelihood - twas there to try and gain an additional advantage (an unnecessary one IMO). Cotto could have said no. He didn't - end of story.

Its not the end of the story. The WBO threatened to strip him if he didnt sign, Cotto was quoted as saying he wanted 147. He was backed into a corner.

Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it.
They are egotistical.

Do you think who walks into the ring last matters?

If the are forced to shed 2lb on the way then yes. Cotto entered training camp 30 days early.

It's not like Manny needed any more concessions. Cotto had to fight him or be stripped. He was getting the lion share of the money. No doubt he had his own gloves, ring size etc.... Talk about a stacked deck.

by Lumbering_Jack Wed May 11, 2011 7:52 pm

Did Floyd gain an advantage by shamelessly coming in at 146. Yes. The extra 2lb would of had an effect.

by Scottrf Wed May 11, 2011 7:54 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
oxring wrote:Hang on - how is it Mannys fight the fight was for a title? Blame the WBCmafia, surely

2 pounds made no difference in all likelihood - twas there to try and gain an additional advantage (an unnecessary one IMO). Cotto could have said no. He didn't - end of story.

Its not the end of the story. The WBO threatened to strip him if he didnt sign, Cotto was quoted as saying he wanted 147. He was backed into a corner.

Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it.
They are egotistical.

Do you think who walks into the ring last matters?

That still kind of indicates that the fighters believe there to he an advantage to be had in 'winning' these minor concessions.

An advantage to walking in second or having your name second on promotional material?

It doesn't mean there was an actual advantage however.

by Lumbering_Jack Wed May 11, 2011 7:56 pm

Scottrf wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
oxring wrote:Hang on - how is it Mannys fight the fight was for a title? Blame the WBCmafia, surely

2 pounds made no difference in all likelihood - twas there to try and gain an additional advantage (an unnecessary one IMO). Cotto could have said no. He didn't - end of story.

Its not the end of the story. The WBO threatened to strip him if he didnt sign, Cotto was quoted as saying he wanted 147. He was backed into a corner.

Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it.
They are egotistical.

Do you think who walks into the ring last matters?

That still kind of indicates that the fighters believe there to he an advantage to be had in 'winning' these minor concessions.
An advantage to walking in second or having your name second on promotional material?

It doesn't mean there was an actual advantage however.

Those things have no chance of changing the outcome of a fight. Making a fighter weigh less than he wants to does. Is it really that hard to understand?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed May 11, 2011 7:57 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:The Other Guys with Matt Damon and Will Ferrell was a funny film.

Wasn't that Mark Wahlberg?

Sorry mate it was good film none the less very funny.

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 pm

Scottrf wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
oxring wrote:Hang on - how is it Mannys fight the fight was for a title? Blame the WBCmafia, surely

2 pounds made no difference in all likelihood - twas there to try and gain an additional advantage (an unnecessary one IMO). Cotto could have said no. He didn't - end of story.

Its not the end of the story. The WBO threatened to strip him if he didnt sign, Cotto was quoted as saying he wanted 147. He was backed into a corner.

Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it.
They are egotistical.

Do you think who walks into the ring last matters?

That still kind of indicates that the fighters believe there to he an advantage to be had in 'winning' these minor concessions.
An advantage to walking in second or having your name second on promotional material?

It doesn't mean there was an actual advantage however.

Psychological though, what matters is if they BELIEVE there's an advantage.

by manos de piedra Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 pm

With Pacquiao, I believe the reason behind the catchweight is to prevent his opponent "sizing up on him" too much.

Pacquiao is a small welter. He could probably make lightweight. He knows for a welterweight fight that he will be about 144/145 lbs in the ring on fight night.

Some welters are much bigger and have to cut weight and dehydrate down to hit the limit before rehydrating back up to their fighting weight. This can be significant and Pacquiao can find himself being outweighed by 10/15lbs come fight night.

By setting the catchweight I think hes trying to limit the effect opponents can size up on him.

I dont honestly think the 2lbs on Cotto made much difference to the outcome of the fight but I think its just a case of a fighter looking for an edge.

Im not a fan of them because their are more than enough weight classes nowadays to make catchweights largely irrelevant. They only purpose they seem to serve now is an attempt to give a fighter an added edge.

by **oxring** Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 pm

Check your history. Catchweights have been around since the dawn of boxing.

I don't think they should be for titles - but that's just my opinion.

However arguing a 140lber shouldn't be allowed to fight a 147 at 145 is ludicrous.

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

by Scottrf Wed May 11, 2011 7:59 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Those things have no chance of changing the outcome of a fight. Making a fighter weigh less than he wants to does. Is it really that hard to understand?

I'm just refuting the 'logic' that because someone asked for it it must be advantageous or change the outcome of a fight.

"Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it." is the question you always ask, I'm just saying it isn't logical based on other things boxers ask for. Just indicative of someone repeating another persons argument, like when people ask 'if Pacquiao is scared of needles why does he have so many tattoos?' because they heard Oscar say it.

by Lumbering_Jack Wed May 11, 2011 8:03 pm

oxring wrote:

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

The let him weigh in at what he likes within the WW limit...

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed May 11, 2011 8:06 pm

oxring wrote:Check your history. Catchweights have been around since the dawn of boxing.

I don't think they should be for titles - but that's just my opinion.

However arguing a 140lber shouldn't be allowed to fight a 147 at 145 is ludicrous.

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

Ox think the problem is some fighters seem to be using them to their benefit. I posted up a list of fights that could be catchweights with no titles on the line and would be great fights to see. Problem is now a days the catchweights are being abused.

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 8:10 pm

oxring wrote:Check your history. Catchweights have been around since the dawn of boxing.

I don't think they should be for titles - but that's just my opinion.

However arguing a 140lber shouldn't be allowed to fight a 147 at 145 is ludicrous.

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

900g isn't a lot in some contexts, but when a fighter can be stripped of a belt for being the equivalent of two bags of crisps overweight, 900g suddenly becomes more imposing.

by **oxring** Wed May 11, 2011 8:11 pm

The "big draw" fighters have always abused the stips in the contract. Manny takes the heat for it more than most because he's "the man".

by Lumbering_Jack Wed May 11, 2011 8:13 pm

I wonder if Manny would still fight if his opponent weighed in 2lb's over the limit.

Roach would have him in a sweat suit sucking the life out of him...

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 8:13 pm

oxring wrote:The "big draw" fighters have always abused the stips in the contract. Manny takes the heat for it more than most because he's "the man".

Personally-though I think there are plenty who might agree-what I don't like is the fact that Pacquiao tries to convey a 'good guy' image while imposing silly stipulations and whatnot. Seems a little hypocritical.

by D4thincarnation Wed May 11, 2011 8:29 pm

Pacquiao is a good guy.

And he imposes nothing, they are agreed upon. And neither Cotto or Margarito were weight drained, they were comfortable at the weight.

by BALTIMORA Wed May 11, 2011 8:33 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is a good guy.

And he imposes nothing, they are agreed upon. And neither Cotto or Margarito were weight drained, they were comfortable at the weight.

You know this no more than I know the opposite. Please stop presenting your opinions as fact.

It's surprising what can be agreed upon when one party holds considerable financial clout and therefore a similarly considerable advantage over the other party.

by Imperial Ghosty Wed May 11, 2011 8:35 pm

oxring wrote:Check your history. Catchweights have been around since the dawn of boxing.

I don't think they should be for titles - but that's just my opinion.

However arguing a 140lber shouldn't be allowed to fight a 147 at 145 is ludicrous.

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

Fight at 145lbs by all means but don't have a Welterweight title on the line

Catchweights have always been around but I can only think of 7 instances of them happening in world title fights, you'll notice something glaringly obvious straight away

Berg vs Canzoneri
Leonard vs LaLonde

De La Hoya vs Hopkins
Pacquiao vs Cotto
Pacquiao vs Margarito
Martinez vs Williams (would love to know who suggested this one as neither are natural middleweights so can't see who would gain an advantage)
Alvarez vs Hatton

It does seem a fairly recent phenomena where titles are on the line

by D4thincarnation Wed May 11, 2011 8:38 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:
oxring wrote:Check your history. Catchweights have been around since the dawn of boxing.

I don't think they should be for titles - but that's just my opinion.

However arguing a 140lber shouldn't be allowed to fight a 147 at 145 is ludicrous.

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

Fight at 145lbs by all means but don't have a Welterweight title on the line

Catchweights have always been around but I can only think of 7 instances of them happening in world title fights, you'll notice something glaringly obvious straight away

Berg vs Canzoneri
Leonard vs LaLonde

De La Hoya vs Hopkins
Pacquiao vs Cotto
Pacquiao vs Margarito
Martinez vs Williams (would love to know who suggested this one as neither are natural middleweights so can't see who would gain an advantage)
Alvarez vs Hatton

It does seem a fairly recent phenomena where titles are on the line

Williams wanted it.

by Scottrf Wed May 11, 2011 8:38 pm

Canzoneri-Ross x2

by Imperial Ghosty Wed May 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Canzoneri/Ross is a tricky one because the champion held both titles going into that fight whereas LaLonde and Berg were fighting at a lower weight than they won their title at but thats a bit of nit picking

by Scottrf Wed May 11, 2011 8:45 pm

135 isn't the Light Welter limit though so it's the same.

by D4thincarnation Wed May 11, 2011 8:47 pm

Meldrick Taylor vs Terry Norris at 150.5lbs

by azania Wed May 11, 2011 8:51 pm

ArchBritishchris wrote:If catchweight allows fighters from different weights to meet in the ring perhaps its a good idea. Pavlik against Hopkins was a catchweight, a greater diversity of contests can be arranged. A catchweight fight between Hagler and Spinks would be an exciting match up.

In regards to Pacquiao, the catchweight in the Cotto fight was hardly significant. Two lbs of the top limit doesn't make alot of difference, in fact its very common across the weight divisions. The Margarito fight is arguably more controversial. But, I don't think there is any doubt that if Pacquiao and Margarito moved up to LMW, they could fight for titles straight out, which numerous fighters do. I said before, I doubt people would complain if Ward and Froch fought at LHW. If the fighters both deserve to compete for a title and it involves two top stars, then I'd say its good fight to make.

These days the top fighters transcend world titles anyway. There is about 64 of them, sadly its not that great an honour anymore. At one point there were 8 world champions. The big fights draw the accolades (and the money) these days. Pacquiao vs Margarito is a pretty big fight. Any contest involving SRL was high profile and its an exciting prospect, will Leonard be able to defeat the LHW champion. They still need to climb into the ring and do the business, the work hasn't really begun yet.

If it didn;t make a lot of difference, why insist on it especially with the belt on the line. It was stipulated to equalise matters thereby making the heavier guy weaker at the weight. Cotto didn't come in at 145 because he wanted to. He came in because he was stupilated to and would be financially penalised if he did. It gives one guy an advantage and disadvantages the other.

by azania Wed May 11, 2011 9:08 pm

oxring wrote:Check your history. Catchweights have been around since the dawn of boxing.

I don't think they should be for titles - but that's just my opinion.

However arguing a 140lber shouldn't be allowed to fight a 147 at 145 is ludicrous.

And 2 pounds? About 900g. That's not a huge difference, whatever you say.

Why not come down to 144lbs. Surely an extra lb would not make any difference also.

The bottom line is, if a boxer has to drain down to his optimum weight of 146/7 the extra lb does have an effect.

by azania Wed May 11, 2011 9:10 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:Those things have no chance of changing the outcome of a fight. Making a fighter weigh less than he wants to does. Is it really that hard to understand?
I'm just refuting the 'logic' that because someone asked for it it must be advantageous or change the outcome of a fight.

"Again I will ask, if two pounds made to difference then why ask for it." is the question you always ask, I'm just saying it isn't logical based on other things boxers ask for. Just indicative of someone repeating another persons argument, like when people ask 'if Pacquiao is scared of needles why does he have so many tattoos?' because they heard Oscar say it.

Actually it was Roach who said it whilst being interviewed by Brian Kenny.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu May 12, 2011 12:41 am

Scottrf wrote:135 isn't the Light Welter limit though so it's the same.

Not really or not at least in my opinion, Berg was challenging for Canzoneris lightweight title but was forced to put his light welterweight title on the line at the same time whereas the subsequent times there was no strict enforcement of weight just so happened that they weighed within Lightweight.

by Guest Thu May 12, 2011 9:13 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:CATCHWEIGHT ...Certainly been interesting back in the 80's with say Spinks-Hagler at 168 or something....Curry-Hagler at 155...Bramble-Nelson at 132....To me however it just seems wrong to fight for a title at 147 etc and force a guy to come in at a lower weight.....Now I'm not having a pop at Manny as guys like Leonard, Mayweather etc have all been guilty of this.......

Maybe if Robbo had forced Maxim in at a lower weight he would now be the undisputed number 1 etc...Certainly swap him for Ali had he done so!!

I don't know I just think we've had weight limits for years and years....tampering to gain an edge on someone seems wrong...fight him at the limit!!

On the otherhand we've probably had fights we wouldn't have had.....Double edged sword....

But maybe it's at too bigger price...

Catchweight is not for me...but is anybody a fan???

Not for me either, the obvious link here is to PacMan in recent fights and I'm a big fan but don't agree that he should have picked up titles (whatever they're worth) for catchweight fights.

The double edge sword is very true and a point often missed when people are looking to criticise PacMan but my view is simple, if there is a title on the line then the fight must at the championship weight.

Non title fights are another story although I would still prefer legitimately weighted fights!

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