New Edinburgh and Glasgow Teams Thread - 2013/2014

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

We exhausted the other thread, so here we go with a new one for all of your pre-season banter needs.
 
1. Edinburgh   
 
Chairman: Jim Calder
CEO: Craig Docherty
Coach: Alan Solomons  
Captain: Greig Laidlaw
 
(a) Squad:
 
Props
Geoff Cross, WP Nel, Lewis Niven, Alasdair Dickinson
 
Hookers
Ross Ford, Steven Lawrie, Aleki Lutui, Alun Walker,
 
Locks
Sean Cox, Grant Gilchrist, Perry Parker, Izak van der Westhuizen, Robert McAlpine,
 
Loose Forwards
Dimitri Basilaia, David Denton, Roddy Grant, Stuart McInally, Ross Rennie, Hamish Watson,
 
Half Backs
Alex Black, Greig Laidlaw, Chris Leck, Harry Leonard, Piers Francis,
 
Centres
Ben Atiga, Ben Cairns, Nick De Luca, John Houston, Matt Scott,
 
Back Three
Tom Brown, Lee Jones, Greig Tonks, Tim Visser, Nikki Walker, Dougie Fife, Jack Cuthbert
 
(b) Transfers 2013/2014:
 
Players In
 
Nikki Walker from Worcester Warriors
Jack Cuthbert from Bath Rugby
Aleki Lutui from Worcester Warriors
Alasdair Dickinson from Sale Sharks
 
Players Out
 
Richie Rees to Newport Gwent Dragons
Netani Talei to Newport Gwent Dragons
Sep Visser released
Mike Penn to Moseley
Andy Titterrell to London Welsh
John Yapp to London Irish
Allan Jacobsen retired
James King retired
Steven Turnbull retired
 
(c) Elite Development Players 2013/2014:
 
Alex Allan (Edinburgh Accies)
Chris Auld (Gala)*
Magnus Bradbury (Boroughmuir)*
Phil Cringle (Heriot’s)
Bruce Dick (Melrose)*
Jamie Farndale (Edinburgh Accies)
Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Heriot’s)
Neil Irvine Hess (Watsonians)*
Ewan McQuillin (Gala)*
George Turner (Heriot’s)
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Accies)
 
* = new EDP player 
 
2. Glasgow  
 
Chairman: Charles Shaw
CEO: Nathan Bomrys
Coach: Gregor Townsend
Captain: Alastair Kellock
 
(a) Squad:
 
Fraser Brown, Hooker
Finlay Gillies, Hooker
Dougie Hall, Hooker
Pat MacArthur, Hooker
Michael Cusack, Prop
Ryan Grant, Prop
Ed Kalman, Prop
Moray Low, Prop
Gordon Reid, Prop
Jon Welsh, Prop
Jerry Yanuyanutawa, Prop
 
Jonny Gray, Lock
Alastair Kellock, Lock
Tom Ryder, Lock
Tim Swinson, Lock
Leone Nakarawa, Lock
 
James Eddie, Flanker
Chris Fusaro, Flanker
Rob Harley, Flanker
Tyrone Holmes, Flanker
 
Ryan Wilson, Number 8
Richie Vernon, Number 8
Josh Strauss, Number 8
 
Chris Cusiter, Scrum-half
Nikola Matawalu, Scrum-half
Henry Pyrgos, Scrum-half
 
Ruaridh Jackson, Fly-half
Duncan Weir, Fly-half
Scott Wight, Fly-half
 
Gabriel Ascarate, Centre
Mark Bennett, Centre
Alex Dunbar, Centre
Peter Horne, Centre
Byron McGuigan, Centre
 
Sean Lamont, Wing
Sean Maitland, Wing
Tommy Seymour, Wing
D.T.H. van der Merwe, Wing
 
Stuart Hogg, Fullback
Peter Murchie, Fullback
 
(b) Player Transfers 2013/2014:
 
Players In
 
Richie Vernon from Sale Sharks
Tyrone Holmes from Petrarca Rugby
Jerry Yanuyanutawa from London Irish
Gabriel Ascarate from US Carcassonne
Leone Nakarawa from Fiji Barbarians
 
Players Out
 
John Barclay to Scarlets
Nick Campbell to Jersey
Ofa Fainga'anuku to Worcester Warriors
Taylor Paris to Agen
Graeme Morrison retired
Rory Lamont retired
 
(c) Elite Development Players 2013/2014:
 
Gavin Lowe (Ayr)
Rory Hughes (Stirling County)
Jack Steele (Dundee)
Finn Russell (Ayr)
Ali Price (Bedford Blues)
Adam Ashe (Stirling County)
Will Bordill (Sale Sharks)
Andrew Redmayne (Dundee)
Fergus Scott (Currie)
George Hunter (Ayr)
Darcy Rae (Ayr)

[RDW]

Ollie Atkins from Waratahs to Edinburgh been mentioned on here?  He's a second row, recently played against the Lions.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/rugby-waratahs-ollie-atkins-in-line-for-edinburgh-1-3031610

Yeah mate we've been there! Not sure Edinburgh need a 2nd row but he looks a big physical lad so won't say no.

[Captain_Sensible]

Ollie Atkins from Waratahs to Edinburgh been mentioned on here?  He's a second row, recently played against the Lions.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/rugby-waratahs-ollie-atkins-in-line-for-edinburgh-1-3031610

Yeah mate we've been there! Not sure Edinburgh need a 2nd row but he looks a big physical lad so won't say no.

I'm definitely sure that Edinburgh need a lock. Depth in that position is poor, and guys like Sean Cox work hard but don't give us enough ballast.

[funnyExiledScot]

Presumably residents of Edinburgh could not think of a category of people more able to dodge soap than Glaswegian hippies.

Celtic fans.

[funnyExiledScot]

Not too bothered about lock. Gilchrist and Cox are a decent enough combination when on form, and I think Perry Parker is underrated. Didn't play badly when called upon last season. We don't really know what VDW can offer yet but he came highly recommended and MacAlpine, with a bit more time in the gym, has the frame to be a very decent lock.

That's five pretty decent options.

When you come to do the analysis at 6, it's a different story. We don't have a single blindside specialist in the squad. We have three number 8s and three number 7s. I'd hoped we'd continue to develop Richie McIver as a potential option, but it doesn't look like he's been picked up. 6 is now the biggest problem position for me. A top quality number 6 would really change the complexion of the pack.

[nickj]

I completely agree that we don't have any specialists but presumably McInally, Basilaia and Denton are seen as ample cover for 6 and 8.

As you mentioned Cox and VDW can play 6 too, indeed both may be stronger at 6 than in the second row.

[Captain_Sensible]

Glasgow Warriors team to play Aberdeen Grammar, Rubislaw, Thursday 8 August (kick-off 6pm):

15. Robbie Ferguson
14. Byron McGuigan
13. Mark Bennett
12. Finn Russell
11. DTH van der Merwe
10. Scott Wight (Captain)
9. Ali Price
8. Adam Ashe
7. Tyron Holmes
6. Rob Harley
5. Jonny Gray
4. Andy Redmayne
3. Jon Welsh
2. Fraser Brown
1. Gordon Reid

Substitutes: Kevin Bryce, D'Arcy Rae, Denford Mutamangira, Ed Kalman, Tom Ryder, James Eddie, Will Bordill, Richie Vernon, Peter Jericevich, Rory Hughes, Gabriel Ascarate, Jack Steele, Gavin Lowe

Very young team, interesting to see Finn Russell at 12, might be an option when Dunbar is with Scotland. I've heard good things about Fergusson, but never seen him play - I thought he was primarily an inside centre?

Also, who's Denford Mutamangira?

[GLove39]

Ohhh, the  is coming to play, I'm so blessed to be living in Aberdeen.

[Weegie Wizard]

Warriors website says he is a prop from Ayr who has been training with the squad recently.

Good team and I like the look of the back row in particular.

[Majestic83]

exciting young glasgow team there for the game against Aberdeen. Looking forward to see what fergusson can at 15. mostly a 12/13 but think he might actually be better suited to 15.
Luckily only work 10 mins from rubislaw so will be shooting there straight from work to see it.

[funnyExiledScot]

I completely agree that we don't have any specialists but presumably McInally, Basilaia and Denton are seen as ample cover for 6 and 8.

As you mentioned Cox and VDW can play 6 too, indeed both may be stronger at 6 than in the second row.

Cox is hopeless at 6. Too slow. Haven't seen VDW play there, but I've heard he's played there before, so perhaps he's an option.

I agree that McInally (in particular), Denton and Basilia can cover it, but none of them are a specialist in that position. I suspect McInally will start the season as the favourite in that jersey, he's a solid and smart player who reads the game well, but I personally prefer the slightly unhinged physicality on offer from Basilia. When he was used last season he performed strongly. Bradley just didn't rate him, which in my book is a ringing endorsement of his abilities.

[funnyExiledScot]

That's a young and interesting Glasgow lineup. Agree that it'll be interesting to see Ferguson at 15, and also Russell at 12.

Bennett should score at least 5 tries in this game. That would be par for him.

[Weegie Wizard]

Am I the only one that hasn't heard of about half a dozen of those subs?
I assume they are all development players but are any the new Carter, Genia, McCaw etc to go with the new BOD?

[funnyExiledScot]

In terms of interesting pointers for the season ahead, there aren't many, but a couple of selections are interesting:

1. It looks like Jon Welsh is to be considered a tighthead going forward, which puts Murray Low in an interesting position, probably having to re-learn his trade at loosehead, where he hasn't really convinced so far.

2. I think Adam Ashe will play a fairly important role whilst Ryan Wilson is out injured.

3. Looks like Scott Wight's Glasgow career is very much back on, with him being made captain for the match (I'd have thought Rob Harley or DTH would have been more likely options being 1st XV players).

[Captain_Sensible]

In terms of interesting pointers for the season ahead, there aren't many, but a couple of selections are interesting:

1. It looks like Jon Welsh is to be considered a tighthead going forward, which puts Murray Low in an interesting position, probably having to re-learn his trade at loosehead, where he hasn't really convinced so far.

2. I think Adam Ashe will play a fairly important role whilst Ryan Wilson is out injured.

3. Looks like Scott Wight's Glasgow career is very much back on, with him being made captain for the match (I'd have thought Rob Harley or DTH would have been more likely options being 1st XV players).

I think Wight's career is back on until Weir, Jackson and Horne are all fully fit. When that happens, he'll be back at fourth choice. He might even be supplanted by Russell.

[funnyExiledScot]

Well Horne will be out for a while, and when fit both Weir and Jackson are likely to be involved in Scotland games, so I think Glasgow fans will be seeing a fair but of Scott Wight this season, whereas it looked like he was on the way out previously.

I'm very interested in seeing Finn Russell play. One of these guys whose name keeps coming up, and yet I've never seen him play. Interesting that he can cover 12. Players comfortable at both 10 and 12 are very handy to have indeed, so let's hope Glasgow can develop that versatility.

[Captain_Sensible]

Well Horne will be out for a while, and when fit both Weir and Jackson are likely to be involved in Scotland games, so I think Glasgow fans will be seeing a fair but of Scott Wight this season, whereas it looked like he was on the way out previously.

I'm very interested in seeing Finn Russell play. One of these guys whose name keeps coming up, and yet I've never seen him play. Interesting that he can cover 12. Players comfortable at both 10 and 12 are very handy to have indeed, so let's hope Glasgow can develop that versatility.

If we can unearth another Peter Horne in Finn Russell, that would be great. I've heard very good things about Robbie Fergusson too, but I don't see how they'll get much time on the pitch this season. It might have made more sense to assign him as an EDP to Edinburgh, as the depth at 12 there isn't great - Scott, Atiga, and ???

[Weegie Wizard]

I agree that Wight will play in November when the others are away with internationals but I have never seen him as much more than a back up to Jacko/Weir.
I hope Harley is given slightly more game time whilst Wilson is out compared to a fairly quiet second half of last season. I would aim to start him at 6 and move Bluto to no 8 rather than rely on Ashe starting.
Obviously this team without those who were away with Lions/internationals but was DTH not playing recently with Canada in the Pacific Nations?

[funnyExiledScot]

I agree, I'd have liked Robbie Ferguson assigned to Edinburgh for the season, in much the same way that we gave you Sean Kennedy as cover. It would have made sense in terms of allocating resources sensibly.

It's probably because Alan Solomons is about to sign Sonny Bill Williams and Conrad Smith.....

[Captain_Sensible]

I agree, I'd have liked Robbie Ferguson assigned to Edinburgh for the season, in much the same way that we gave you Sean Kennedy as cover. It would have made sense in terms of allocating resources sensibly.

It's probably because Alan Solomons is about to sign Sonny Bill Williams and Conrad Smith.....

It's the comedy that keeps bringing me back to this forum

[Weegie Wizard]

Really though, what will Solomons think when he realised he has 3 moderate fly-half candidates and looks across to see Townsend deciding between 2 good ones, 1 moderate one and 2 centres who can play 10 as well?

[Captain_Sensible]

Really though, what will Solomons think when he realised he has 3 moderate fly-half candidates and looks across to see Townsend deciding between 2 good ones, 1 moderate one and 2 centres who can play 10 as well?

He'll probably want to set something on fire.

As an Edinburgh man myself, I wouldn't blame him if he did.

[Manky-Flanker]

If we can unearth another Peter Horne in Finn Russell, that would be great. I've heard very good things about Robbie Fergusson too, but I don't see how they'll get much time on the pitch this season.

Not sure Finn Russell is physically ready for Rabo rugby just yet. Could use some more meat on the bones, if this picture from his time on the Mcphail scholarship is anything to go by

[funnyExiledScot]

I think "moderate" is being generous. Leonard, Francis and Hunter all have potential, but I don't think any of them would currently make the XV of any other Rabo side, including Zebre.

I think Solomons' first training session will be a real eye opener for him. The less he thinks about the riches in the squad over at Scotstoun the better!

[funnyExiledScot]

He looks like a stiff breeze would knock him over!

I hope Aberdeen Grammar don't have any muscle in their centres, otherwise they'll make hay against that scrap of a lad and infant partnering him in the centres!

[Captain_Sensible]

He looks like a stiff breeze would knock him over!

I hope Aberdeen Grammar don't have any muscle in their centres, otherwise they'll make hay against that scrap of a lad and infant partnering him in the centres!

I reckon the guys he played against on the McPhail scholarship in Un Zud were bigger and better than the guys turning out for Aberdeen Grammar. The glasgow website has Russell at 6ft and 13.7 stones. If he can add a bit more muscle to that he'll be fine.

[funnyExiledScot]

I guess those dimensions should be fine. He'll have to carry Bennett in defence though....

[Captain_Sensible]

I guess those dimensions should be fine. He'll have to carry Bennett in defence though....

Again with the comedy...

[Weegie Wizard]

I hope Solomons will have done his homework before taking the job so he should have identified a few options by now. I presume he will go for a NSQd fly half as all the good SQd ones already play for Glasgow.

[funnyExiledScot]

I hope Solomons will have done his homework before taking the job so he should have identified a few options by now. I presume he will go for a NSQd fly half as all the good SQd ones already play for Glasgow.

....or Bath. If George Ford becomes first choice at Bath this season, I'd like Heathcote to come to Edinburgh.

[Weegie Wizard]

I hadn't really seen much of him before this summer and he looked quite good. Although he has played quite a few games for Bath he is only 21/22. Is he good enough at the moment to get the best out of the guys outside him? I think you really need to bring in a 10 who will make an immediate impact as the rest of the backline is top notch, despite the recent additions.

[funnyExiledScot]

In an ideal world I agree, but I honestly don't think such a player exists for Edinburgh. Good 10s tend to get snapped up pretty quickly, so I suspect the key for Edinburgh will be to develop a couple of good options, in rather the same way that Glasgow have had to.

Very hard to sign a top class experienced 10 these days. They are like gold dust.

[RDW]

I see this Omar M........ (can't spell his name!) Bloke has been confirmed as defence and rucking coach at Edinburgh as expected.

Looks like a good appointment and Solomons speaks incredibly highly of him.

his main trait seems to be turning teams into brutal defensive units, and that's exactly what we need!

[funnyExiledScot]

If he turns edinburgh into a ''brutal defensive unit'' he'll deserve a knighthood!

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

From the Evening Times, Gregor Townsend is quoted :-

The Warriors have lost the services of John Barclay who has moved to Scarlets, but they've brought in Richie Vernon from Sale and the versatile South African Tyrone Holmes who can play right across the back row.

Gregor told the Evening Times: "We are very strong in the back row, there is no doubt about that.

"John's departure to the Scarlets was a disappointment, but I would say that, with the arrival of Richie and Tyrone, we are even stronger across the back three positions in the pack than we were last season.

"You look back at the season Chris Fusaro had for us two campaigns back and he hardly featured last term due to injury and so it will almost be like bringing another new face in.

"Richie Vernon may primarily be a No.8, but he can play either openside or blindside and he is looking very fit and very fast. That injection of pace from him is something extra for us to utilise this season.

"We have brought Tyrone in, who can play in all three positions, and Josh Strauss was a major player for us last season. So what we have is options and options that are interchangeable. What you want from your squad is competition for places, but also players that give you more than one option. We have that in abundance and that augurs very well for the season ahead."

The Glasgow coach is also delighted he's been able to bring in Argentina international Gabriel Ascarate to help to fill the void caused by the cruciate ligament sustained by Peter Horne on tour with Scotland in South Africa.

Peter will be out for most of next season and sparked an extensive search for a replacement.

Experienced at inside and outside centre, as well as at full-back, the ex-Carcassonne star also has three seasons in South Africa's Vodacom Cup with the Pampas XV under his belt.

Gregor said: "Gabriel is very solid defensively, has good hands and a real turn of pace. He has trained really well and he is clearly hungry to make an impact with us."

[Artful_Dodger]

Reminds me of when Ulster lost Pedrie Wannenburg and brought in Roger Wilson and Nick Williams....everybody said Wannenburg was a massive loss, but we were actually stronger for it in the backrow.

[InjuredYetAgain]

This is all quiet encouraging but I do think Edinburgh's scrummage still needs work on it. Is Cuttito still the Edinburgh and Scotland scrum coach?

[RDW]

Got to love Twitter - rbs Scottish rugby tweeted Tom Brown and visser asking them if they were looking forward to their rugby force day at Forrester, and who would give the best coaching tips.

Visser said he wasn't sure, but it definitely wouldn't be Tom Brown

Tom replied saying 'as long as Tim isn't giving out defence tips we'll be fine!'

Burn!!

[George Carlin]

Just briefly:

1. Edinburgh have a handful of competent locks but no great ones. That, unfortunately, is a fact and if Edinburgh get the chance to take someone of a Donncha Ryan/Launchbury/Muller/Swinson/Ian Evans/Saint AWJ vintage, they should take them. They have to build the pack around someone. That could be Rennie or Denton but it sure as hell isn't Cox.VdW has not justified his reputation as yet and PJP has been fine bit hasn't really impressed me yet.

2. Love the look of that Glasgow lineup. Looking forward to seeing what Bordill can do - he can really kick on from his Sale days with this club. Robbie Fergusson (missing an 's' in the lineup?) Is usuallly a centre with the U20s but he has also played 15 as Lineen has chopped and changes that backline a lot. With Cusack's' seemingly ongoing fitness concerns, I think Welsh does belong on the tight side because Moray Low has his second 'flat' season in a row for me.

[funnyExiledScot]

GC - it's not that I think we have the ideal combination of locks, it's just that in terms of our squad, it's a position of relative depth rather than weakness. I still think that Gilchrist will become an international lock, and is the right man to wear that 4 jersey. We should stick by him. The question of plays with him is open, but we have four options:

1. Cox - often seen as lightweight but he does add aggression (along with disciplinary issues) to the pack and provides direction and leadership.

2. VWD - again, not a particularly big man (6ft 5), but mobile and not afraid to put his shoulder in. I have high hopes - wasn't fit or ready last season, so in my view starts with a clean slate. I'm hoping he can replicate Tim Swinson's role at Glasgow, punching about his weight.

3. Parker - underrated. Good hands and decent workrate. A bit like Basilia last season, did little wrong when picked, but Bradley just didn't seem to rate him, which to my mind means he's probably a pretty handy player. Decent size at 6ft 8 and 18.5 stones.

4. MacAlpine - raw and lanky, but has the frame and skills to develop into a very handy player. Good lineout option already, and certainly one to hang onto. A bit like Johnny Gray at Glasgow, one for the future, but I expect him to get one or two games this season. The key thing for him now is conditioning. He needs to get well over that 18 stone mark, without losing his lineout spring.

If we're going to spend money on a new player, I want someone terrifying in the 6 jersey smashing into rucks and tackling hard for 80 minutes. Someone to lead the defence. If only we could get Al Strokosch back. He'd be ideal.

[RDW]

The squads seem a bit unbalanced just now.  Glasgow have something like 18 props fit whereas Edinburgh only really have 4 front line props available just now.  Edinburgh will have 6 2nd rows to chose from, with only 1 potentially away with Scotland, whereas Glasgow only really have 4 or 5 front line locks, and at least 2 are likely to be involved with Scotland.

We'll trade you a lock for a prop!

Perry Parker for Ryan Grant OK I assume?

[RuggerRadge2611]

All this talk of tightening up our defence is pretty meaningless. For a long time our defence is leakier than the Brazillian Navy. If a change in coaching can shore up our defence it'll be a miracle.

I don't think it's a coaching issue. There are some big units in the Edinburgh squad, Visser being a great example of a man mountain who should be putting guys on their erses but instead wusses out of the tackle and/or deliberatly positions himself poorly to avoid making a tackle in the first place. Long story short some of our key players avoid tackling like your would avoid a kiss from your great auntie Jeannie. As pro's it isn't good enough. We have had this discussion before and if a guy as physically imposing as Visser can't or won't make his tackles I'm not 100% convinced his prolific scoring record is enough to justify his place.

He should look to guys like Laidlaw who despite being the smallest guy on the park constantly throws himself into the contact.

[funnyExiledScot]

It's easy to pick on Visser when it comes to defence, but he certainly wasn't the only Edinburgh player guilty of "avoiding" or "falling off" tackles last season, and he is our best attacking weapon.

Whilst I'd love Visser to punch his weight in defence, he certainly does in attack, and for that reason we need to persevere. He's too good, and we're too rubbish, for us to let him go.

I take the point though, committment was generally lacking in the squad last season, and isn't wasn't just about defensive shape. Players like Ford, Gilchrist and Denton just weren't putting in the hits and being aggressive enough. Hopefully the new coaches can motivate them to improve.

The most heartening thing for Edinburgh fans is that the players have it within them to be much better. We're not talking about rubbish players on the whole.

[RDW]

To be fair Radge our defence was pretty good in the HK run (RM game aside) so it does show the players can do it. The fact that the defence was so bad in the league shows that it is a mental / coaching issue.

This Omar bloke doesn't look like a shrinking violet - if he can install high standards week in week out and we employ Derren Brown to sort them out mentally (and do a few card tricks for entertainment) then we could be OK.

[funnyExiledScot]

Thing is, I didn't think Neil Back would be a shrinking violet either, and his contribution was non-existant as far as performances were concerned. In fact the side got much worse under his tenure, not better (and he still felt he should have been given the top job when Bradley was fired).

I'm hoping that the Scott/NDL centre partnership gets a good long run this season to allow our defensive shape to develop, and we sorely need Ross Rennie to stay fit this season. He's so good at spoiling and slowing things down, which allows our pack that extra split second to form the line and get good line speed.

My concern is that a couple of early defeats could lead to heads dropping again. Starting away at Munster is hardly ideal.

[Captain_Sensible]

Signing of Grayson Hart and Ollie Atkins confirmed by Edinburgh, subject to medicals.

[justified sinner]

Atkins and Hart confirmed on Edinburgh Twitter, subject to medical. Doesn't mention the length of the deal.

Beat me to the trigger CS.

[funnyExiledScot]

Well, expected but welcome news. I haven't seen either play, but hopefully Solomons has had a chance to look over these guys and has given the green light.

[Captain_Sensible]

Well, expected but welcome news. I haven't seen either play, but hopefully Solomons has had a chance to look over these guys and has given the green light.

I assume he's seen bits and pieces of them in the S15. Good to have more depth in two key positions.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think Hart will be particularly important. Laidlaw can't play every week, and whilst Kennedy is a big talent, he's still raw, and not an 80 minute player. I've never been wowed by Leck, bascially just a functional player, and Hidalgo-Clyne is probably a season away from being a valuable squad player.

[George Carlin]

http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/13/08/08/two-tahs-gun-edinburgh

Both SQs straight away, huh? Let's see how they go - good luck to them both.

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