Liston Vs Foreman

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Who comes out on top when two of the most menacing HW champs of all time go head to head?

On paper these two match up pretty well, both physically and in terms of fighting style. Both have serious knock out power, sturdy chins and both had an aura of invincibility in their primes. George would be mentally tougher, although Liston had the more refined boxing skills. Foreman usually features higher on the ATG lists. Both are probably more widely known for their losses to Ali than for their own stellar careers.

I see George coming out and not taking a step back, swarming Sonny with his big looping shots. But Sonny was a calm and composed fighter in the ring and see him finding a regular home for his jab. As the fight goes on Georges begins to miss more and more and Liston punishes him to the head and body before taking him out late. He was just a more well rounded fighter, more relaxed in the ring and had the tools to beat Big George provided he weathered the early onslaught.

Prime vs prime who takes it?

frazier had a cracking chin, didn't stop George from demolishing him.

not sure what in liston cv there is to suggest he could easily outbox foreman, nearly all of listons best wins are early blow outs like patterson. both have similar records of not many seeing the distance so im not to convinced about the going later favors liston either. the only fight where pacing cost foreman was ali in very difficult conditions and not many could have withstood what foreman threw at ali.

do think foremans boxing ability is over looked, he could look very crued at times and he was no ali but he was no mug. if anything the old foreman who came back showed this more. hard to look like a boxer when your splaying people around the ring in 1/2 rounds

paperbag_puncher wrote:

compelling and rich wrote:i actualy thinks this is a bad match up and foreman wins this early, foreman always at his best when a fighters comes to him which i think liston would. stopped twice against ali who's not the biggest puncher doesn't bode well for liston against one of the biggest hitters out there

foreman has a great chin, his only stoppage was also against ali, i know sounds contradictory but think this was more down to exhaustion and the heat of zaire

Listons chin was up there with Georges. The OP says both in their primes. Sonny was far removed from his prime by the time he fought Ali and the legitimacy of those fights will always be questioned.

Sonny never stopped in his prime despite breaking his jaw against Marshall I think it was. Don't think Liston would chase George either too clever for that especially when he knows he can outbox him.

Agreed. Also Listons reach means he can stay just out of range and has little need to force the issue - Liston also has the added advantage of having sparred George so a little inside knowledge might go along way.

ShahenshahG wrote:True - but Ali had a boxers eye and I think he understood instinctively that George was quite less sophisticated than Liston and that helped him strategically in the fight with the rope a dope. I somehow doubt that if it was sonny there - he would have gone to the ropes.

Here he explains why he wouldn't employ the rope a dope against most fighters and the respective merits of each style on their own and against the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4H8zXwVbVE

Fool me 101 times, shame on you. Knew it was coming this time!

But I agree with the first bit.

Frazier was also dropped by Bonevena, but got up, as he did five times against Foreman, who also a fairly dubious punch when Friaziers back was turned. Not suggesting that George was anything but a murderous puncher, but he suffered more legitimate KDs than Liston. Forman nay. Have been the slightly harder puncher, but I'd pick Liston as being the harder to deck.

The thing with Foreman and Liston's power is that Liston threw correct punches from round 1 onwards. Foreman swung as hard as he could from round one onwards and may have generated more power but also tired sooner. If Liston had come out swinging like Foreman he may have been as or more powerful but was more orthodox.

I know although Wepner was taken out in three by Foreman and ten by Sonny, he said Sonny was the hardest hitter he faced and that every time he landed it felt like something broke.

Also it was Liston's last fight when he faced Chuck and was undoubtedly quite far over the hill.

Chuck starts talking two minutes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALLNXdjwnxA

Norris v Liston?

Liston for me was the more complete boxer, threw crisper, cleaner shots and had a tighter defense, coupled with a jab that must be among the best as far as heavies are concerned, I think he takes foreman out in the middle rounds, possibly getting outworked abit in the early rounds.

surprised Liston is getting backed so much, he's a guy who struggles to make people top ten yet foreman easily makes peoples top ten, foreman usually comes out very well in fantasy head to head match ups. don't think many could handle a prime foreman, unfortunately for him he met the one man who could

Liston lowly ratings in people top ten can be explained by his poor world title reign. One successful defence against the fragile Paterson followed by two the most controversial loses in title fight history is hardly the stuff that guarantees top ten status, however his reign was not really reflective of either how good a fighter he was, or how much he actually dominated the division- Floyd may have held the belts, but everyone knew that Sonny was the main man. Whereas George holds a victory over a fellow ATG in Frazier, and demolished the well known Norton, as well as being the oldest ever champ, he also benefits in that a younger generation of fight fans saw him fight , whereas most fans that can remember seeing Liston fight are at least fifty years old, and those younger than that have most only seen the fights with Ali which hardly paint a good picture.

Did Liston lack mental fortitude because to me he looked sick as chip during the first Ali fight, and ended up quit on his stool. Why do people like Ortiz take so much stick and others don't? Did Liston prove himself against anyone great (who wasn't a little fragile)? I think Foreman would sicken him also. It would be a great fight though. One of the best I can imagine.

BoxingMelon wrote:Did Liston lack mental fortitude because to me he looked sick as chip during the first Ali fight, and ended up quit on his stool. Why do people like Ortiz take so much stick and others don't? Did Liston prove himself against anyone great (who wasn't a little fragile)? I think Foreman would sicken him also. It would be a great fight though. One of the best I can imagine.

Got a feeling what sickened Sonny is his fights with Ali was more to do with certain outside influences than Ali himself.

I wouldn't judge Liston on the strength of the Ali BM, I don't believe that the fight was a fix, but nor do I think that was the real sonny in there that night. And as I alluded to in my earlier post he proved himself time and again as a contender - compare his record up 1963 with Floyd' Patersons and you'll see that Liston pretty much cleaned up the division and whilst unpopular he was viewed as near invincible, plenty would have said he potentially the best ever at that time. Cus D'amato ducking of him on Floyd's behalf was disgraceful . It's also worth noting that post Ali he put together a decent run of ten or so wins, and by rights probably deserved another crack at the title in the late 60s , but the boxing establishment pretty much closed the door on him. One of boxings saddest stories .

Looking through his record I can't see any brilliant wins? Who did he beat of note that was a great durable fighter? Did he dominate in a weak era? (like Klits do in this one)

Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams and Valdes were all good wins.

A few of Liston's wins, against OK fighters, were OK.

Patterson: 8 losses (5 KO's) but probably giving away over two stone against Liston.

Machen while durable was no great.

Folley 11 losses (7 KO's) hardly the personification of durable.

Williams 13 losses (8 KO's) see Folley.

Valdes - had lost about a quarter of his fights at the time.

Wlad's jab is good but it looks better against weak opponents, could the same be said for Liston? (I don't know)

Would be more beneficial to watch them fight rather than going by just their records. Valdes for instance is one of the finest heavyweights never to have won the title alongside Williams who started to get stopped more regularly after he was nearly killed in a shooting. Whereas Patterson would have been giving away closer to a stone I believe in weight.

Foreman is a top 10 HW. In my mind a top 10 HW should have to beat a Top 20HW to be ranked so high (and if he hasn't, then to be rated so high, he should have achieved something exceptional).

To be kind to Liston, we'll say he's a top 15HW (but why should he be? did he ever beat a top 20 HW? or do something exceptional?)

In fact, did Liston even beat a top 30HW? If not, then why is he rated so high on this thread?

Is it because he dominated a weak era with an exceptional jab and great power, similar to Wlad?

Like I said you would be better off going and watching some of his fights rather than judging it purely on record. To be brutally honest the beginning part of your post makes zero sense at all, Liston is without doubt a top 15 heavyweight using any criteria you want.

I'm amazed that Liston has been the huge majority of people's call on this one, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it's a great match up and there's no doubt that Sonny could win it, for sure. But I think people are maybe getting too caught up in Liston's superior technical skills.

He was the better boxer out of the pair, but the fact is he always boxed coming forward. There seems to be a notion growing that Liston could outmove George and leave him hitting plenty of thin air, but I can't think of a single Liston performance which suggests this. Fair enough, his showing against Machen was very accomplished, but even then he was always doing the stalking and taking the fight to Machen.

Liston was hittable (as was Foreman, of course) and if the evidence is anything to go on he'll be in front of Foreman all night. Risky place to say the least.

Liston had his chin checked a fair few times and did come through in some cases, but if the fight boils down to a phone booth brawl, which I think it will, then I'd say Foreman is better equipped to deal with it and come through. There was the Lyle fight, of course, but let's not forget that he also had Holyfield teeing off cleanly and very frequently on him for the full twelve rounds and got hit with every shot in the book against Moorer before finding the pay off punch. True to form, though, he was standing throughout, and while both fell inside-schedule to Ali, I don't see Foreman jacking it the way Liston did second time out against the same man, for instance.

I think Liston would have his moments and it'd be a war while it lasted, but I can see Foreman stopping him inside five or six brutal rounds. Liston liked the rough stuff on the inside, but Foreman would have had a field day banging in those horrible uppercuts. Even when he returned as a slow, old and pretty fat man, that shot was still chilling and Liston was a little open to it.

Liston has the skills but as I said, he never tried his bullying style on anyone as big and physically strong as Foreman. Big George is no fourteen stone fella (Machen), converted Light-Heavyweight (Patterson) etc. Liston's wins against Williams were excellent, but Williams, very good though he was, isn't in the same class as Foreman.

I'm not blind to Foreman's faults and he'd have to suck up a lot of punishment, and maybe even peel himself of the deck to get it done, but I'd probably take him to eventually outgun and overpower Liston after one hell of a shootout.

Terror I've read my post back and it didn't make sense, I'm sorry for that. I've amended it, if you care to read it, hopefully it makes sense now?

I've seen a few highlight videos of Liston and he looks unbeatable! Truly amazing. I've also watched the Ali fights and he looked completely outclassed.

Could you please recommend a fight to watch where he has demonstrated skill and determination against a great opponent.

Cheers
Melon

Everyone says that Liston is the superior boxer (maybe he is) but how many superior boxers did Foreman overcome? My guess is that lots of Foreman's opponents were superior boxers and he beat them.

Foreman didn't beat anyone that was better than Liston whilst he lost to the inferior Jimmy Young not long after the Rumble.

BoxingMelon wrote:Foreman is a top 10 HW. In my mind a top 10 HW should have to beat a Top 20HW to be ranked so high (and if he hasn't, then to be rated so high, he should have achieved something exceptional).

To be kind to Liston, we'll say he's a top 15HW (but why should he be? did he ever beat a top 20 HW? or do something exceptional?)

In fact, did Liston even beat a top 30HW? If not, then why is he rated so high on this thread?

Is it because he dominated a weak era with an exceptional jab and great power, similar to Wlad?

He was a very different animal to Wlad- much more aggressive, attacking on the front foot,and I don't think you can call the late 50s and early 60s a weak era, but it was a very different era to now, and boxing was promoted very differently. Fighters in that era fought more regularly, and were matched much harder than their modern counterparts, and so picked up more losses-it doesn't mean they weren't as good-for a obvious example compare the careers of SRR and FMJ and you will see just how these eras are- if SRR were around noww he would have had a third of the number of fights, and barely a loss amongst them, fighting once or twice a year on a big show in Vegas. Whereas if FMJ fought in the fifties he would have boxed once a month in smaller shows all over the boxing world- he'd have had double the number of fights and a handful of losses. It doesn't mean that either would have been better or worse.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Foreman didn't beat anyone that was better than Liston whilst he lost to the inferior Jimmy Young not long after the Rumble.

Frazier cant be far off! And can easily turn it round and say liston hasnt beaten anyone even close to foreman

This is true but the heavyweight division is a bit of an anomaly in that it's very rare that there is more than one great heavyweight at a time.

Apart from foremans era of course

Disregarding the second fight as not on the level I don't think Listons win to Ali at his physical peak as damaging as Foremans to a more immobile version. He has his wins over Frazier and Norton but neither of them I see troubling Liston at his best.

88Chris05 wrote:I'm amazed that Liston has been the huge majority of people's call on this one, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it's a great match up and there's no doubt that Sonny could win it, for sure. But I think people are maybe getting too caught up in Liston's superior technical skills.

He was the better boxer out of the pair, but the fact is he always boxed coming forward. There seems to be a notion growing that Liston could outmove George and leave him hitting plenty of thin air, but I can't think of a single Liston performance which suggests this. Fair enough, his showing against Machen was very accomplished, but even then he was always doing the stalking and taking the fight to Machen.

Liston was hittable (as was Foreman, of course) and if the evidence is anything to go on he'll be in front of Foreman all night. Risky place to say the least.

Liston had his chin checked a fair few times and did come through in some cases, but if the fight boils down to a phone booth brawl, which I think it will, then I'd say Foreman is better equipped to deal with it and come through. There was the Lyle fight, of course, but let's not forget that he also had Holyfield teeing off cleanly and very frequently on him for the full twelve rounds and got hit with every shot in the book against Moorer before finding the pay off punch. True to form, though, he was standing throughout, and while both fell inside-schedule to Ali, I don't see Foreman jacking it the way Liston did second time out against the same man, for instance.

I think Liston would have his moments and it'd be a war while it lasted, but I can see Foreman stopping him inside five or six brutal rounds. Liston liked the rough stuff on the inside, but Foreman would have had a field day banging in those horrible uppercuts. Even when he returned as a slow, old and pretty fat man, that shot was still chilling and Liston was a little open to it.

Liston has the skills but as I said, he never tried his bullying style on anyone as big and physically strong as Foreman. Big George is no fourteen stone fella (Machen), converted Light-Heavyweight (Patterson) etc. Liston's wins against Williams were excellent, but Williams, very good though he was, isn't in the same class as Foreman.

I'm not blind to Foreman's faults and he'd have to suck up a lot of punishment, and maybe even peel himself of the deck to get it done, but I'd probably take him to eventually outgun and overpower Liston after one hell of a shootout.

Well balanced arguement as always Chris, but I'm not sure that being able to withstand Holyfield and Moorer as an old man adds much wieght to the arguement that in his prime he stands up to Liston. The weight /size difference between himand Holy / Moorer was considerable, and that extra bulk helps absorb punishment, whereas peak for peak against Liston, he's still the bigger man, but the wieghtdifference is considerably less, and Liston is much harder puncher than either Holy or Moorer.I'd still back Liston, but i'd not bet on it.

88Chris05 wrote:I'm amazed that Liston has been the huge majority of people's call on this one, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it's a great match up and there's no doubt that Sonny could win it, for sure. But I think people are maybe getting too caught up in Liston's superior technical skills.

He was the better boxer out of the pair, but the fact is he always boxed coming forward. There seems to be a notion growing that Liston could outmove George and leave him hitting plenty of thin air, but I can't think of a single Liston performance which suggests this. Fair enough, his showing against Machen was very accomplished, but even then he was always doing the stalking and taking the fight to Machen.

Liston was hittable (as was Foreman, of course) and if the evidence is anything to go on he'll be in front of Foreman all night. Risky place to say the least.

Liston had his chin checked a fair few times and did come through in some cases, but if the fight boils down to a phone booth brawl, which I think it will, then I'd say Foreman is better equipped to deal with it and come through. There was the Lyle fight, of course, but let's not forget that he also had Holyfield teeing off cleanly and very frequently on him for the full twelve rounds and got hit with every shot in the book against Moorer before finding the pay off punch. True to form, though, he was standing throughout, and while both fell inside-schedule to Ali, I don't see Foreman jacking it the way Liston did second time out against the same man, for instance.

I think Liston would have his moments and it'd be a war while it lasted, but I can see Foreman stopping him inside five or six brutal rounds. Liston liked the rough stuff on the inside, but Foreman would have had a field day banging in those horrible uppercuts. Even when he returned as a slow, old and pretty fat man, that shot was still chilling and Liston was a little open to it.

Liston has the skills but as I said, he never tried his bullying style on anyone as big and physically strong as Foreman. Big George is no fourteen stone fella (Machen), converted Light-Heavyweight (Patterson) etc. Liston's wins against Williams were excellent, but Williams, very good though he was, isn't in the same class as Foreman.

I'm not blind to Foreman's faults and he'd have to suck up a lot of punishment, and maybe even peel himself of the deck to get it done, but I'd probably take him to eventually outgun and overpower Liston after one hell of a shootout.

Thing is People are just visualising Sonny standing in front of him making George eat the jab..........Forgetting that Foreman was a murderous puncher and how intimidating the wind from one of his huge bombs would be whistling past the whiskers...

Just can't see Liston being able to stand his ground under the onslaught....and he wasn't A+ in the heart department either !!

Norton and Frazier couldn't stand their ground and Liston wasn't as smart as Ali..........

Not just the jab Truss, but equally murderous hooks and crosses- going back the otherway too, and George admits to being intimidated by Frazier, so he may not be immune to the pyscological pressure of facing Sonny, and I don't buy it that at his best he didn't have the heart for it- fought with borken jaw in one fight. This fight is a pick'em for most of us, and I'm picking Sonny as he had the better technique, straighter shots- just feel he lands more often than George, and possible better whiskers, but don't think that many here are alluding that this fight is a given for either man.

horizontalhero wrote:Not just the jab Truss, but equally murderous hooks and crosses- going back the otherway too, and George admits to being intimidated by Frazier, so he may not be immune to the pyscological pressure of facing Sonny, and I don't buy it that at his best he didn't have the heart for it- fought with borken jaw in one fight. This fight is a pick'em for most of us, and I'm picking Sonny as he had the better technique, straighter shots- just feel he lands more often than George, and possible better whiskers, but don't think that many here are alluding that this fight is a given for either man.

George said a lot of things..Didn't stop him walking through people....Foreman is the hardest puncher in heavy history for me.....Liston can't stand his ground with George unloading......Holy couldn't......Frazier couldn't...Norton couldn't.....

They were all quicker than Sonny !!

Thing is Truss i dont think George could stand his ground with Sonny unloading, certainly a fight that divide opinion shame we will never actually know.

One thing I disagree about with Chris' post. Liston did go on the backfoot against Scrap Iron Johnson. Easy enough to do as Scrap Iron wasn't too mobile but it showed Sonny could do it.

He fought an old Liston, close to prime Foreman and Ron Lyle. Foreman and Liston both stopped him in 7. Lyle in 3.

Never seen that one myself, JBW, but cheers for the heads up. Will have to take a look and see if it prompts me to change my mind!

It's not an easy fight to call but I do think that some are getting a bit too hung up on whether Liston can stand up to Foreman when the reverse is an equally important question. Yes in his rather embarrassing comeback the likes of Holyfield and Moorer never really hurt him but that's not indicative of Foreman in the 70's where he could be hurt and hurt badly as Lyle showed. He could also gas as the Rumble showed while Young comprehensively outboxed him, that's 3 fights in or about his prime that he showed weaknesses, weaknesses that someone as good, powerful, tough and rangy as Liston could exploit.

Foreman had the potential to get out boxed by anyone that he fought.

But he didn't.

Everyone had straighter (and faster, and more 'correct' shots than Foreman) but it didn't make a difference, he knocked everyone into oblivion. L

Liston was a banger (and he thrived on it) but when did he prove himself against a 225+ ATG???

...He didn't.

...Foreman (the monster) would hammer the 99kg (decent) fighter (Liston) into retardation.

Foreman had challenges while Liston had Snacks.

if that's what you really think BM, then you're seriously under selling the likes of Valdes and Williams,and conveniently ignoring that Liston was a equally murderous puncher. I have no problem with you picking Foreman, but please sentences like "would hammer him into redardation" do nothing for the quality of debate.

Foreman was a great fighter but was beatable is a few ways Ali outlasted him, Young Outboxed him and but for a disgraceful bit of incompetence by the officials manning the bell Lyle would have out punched and KOed George. Liston was a level above both Young and Lyle and apart from Ali its hard to see many other fighters who could handle him.

Hi guys, not going to add anything to the debate as dont have same knowledge as you lot. Just wanted to say thankyou for the thread, it made me watch Foreman v Lyle- what a fight!

88Chris05 wrote:Never seen that one myself, JBW, but cheers for the heads up. Will have to take a look and see if it prompts me to change my mind!

Although Liston pulls it off effortlessly, I get the feeling either of us could out manouver Johnson without trying too hard! Certainly had a chin though...

Checked him out, not the easiest career path i've ever seen for a journeyman; Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Bugner, Lyle, Quarry and Machen pretty much back to back.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I'm amazed that Liston has been the huge majority of people's call on this one, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it's a great match up and there's no doubt that Sonny could win it, for sure. But I think people are maybe getting too caught up in Liston's superior technical skills.

He was the better boxer out of the pair, but the fact is he always boxed coming forward. There seems to be a notion growing that Liston could outmove George and leave him hitting plenty of thin air, but I can't think of a single Liston performance which suggests this. Fair enough, his showing against Machen was very accomplished, but even then he was always doing the stalking and taking the fight to Machen.

Liston was hittable (as was Foreman, of course) and if the evidence is anything to go on he'll be in front of Foreman all night. Risky place to say the least.

Liston had his chin checked a fair few times and did come through in some cases, but if the fight boils down to a phone booth brawl, which I think it will, then I'd say Foreman is better equipped to deal with it and come through. There was the Lyle fight, of course, but let's not forget that he also had Holyfield teeing off cleanly and very frequently on him for the full twelve rounds and got hit with every shot in the book against Moorer before finding the pay off punch. True to form, though, he was standing throughout, and while both fell inside-schedule to Ali, I don't see Foreman jacking it the way Liston did second time out against the same man, for instance.

I think Liston would have his moments and it'd be a war while it lasted, but I can see Foreman stopping him inside five or six brutal rounds. Liston liked the rough stuff on the inside, but Foreman would have had a field day banging in those horrible uppercuts. Even when he returned as a slow, old and pretty fat man, that shot was still chilling and Liston was a little open to it.

Liston has the skills but as I said, he never tried his bullying style on anyone as big and physically strong as Foreman. Big George is no fourteen stone fella (Machen), converted Light-Heavyweight (Patterson) etc. Liston's wins against Williams were excellent, but Williams, very good though he was, isn't in the same class as Foreman.

I'm not blind to Foreman's faults and he'd have to suck up a lot of punishment, and maybe even peel himself of the deck to get it done, but I'd probably take him to eventually outgun and overpower Liston after one hell of a shootout.

Just can't see Liston being able to stand his ground under the onslaught....and he wasn't A+ in the heart department either !!

Yep as continuing and finishing a fight after breaking your jaw shows no heart whatsoever?

Don't forget Liston was by some accounts pushing 40 when he faced Clay. He tore muscles in his left arm early and wasn't able to use his best weapons the jab and hook for much of the fight. Bit unfair to question the man's heart given the above.

Peak Liston gives Clay a far better fight. If banks and Cooper can deck him then So can Sonny and he wouldn't be letting him of the hook. Still give clay the edge but no way was Liston at hos peak when they fought.