Could/should be capped for your country

First topic message reminder :

To allow an insight into other players other than your own country's ones, I thought it might be interesting to name mostly uncapped players from your club/province/region (though forgotten capped players like Tom Prydie are fine if needs must) who you think could/should gain international recognition this coming season. It doesn't have to be purely your own team's players (particularly if you have no particular affinity to a "club" team), but it might be interesting to look back in a little while and see if players like Marland Yarde or Christian Leali'ifano are predicted.

So for the Dragons

Could

Seniors
Lewis Evans
Nic Cudd

U20's
Ieuan Jones
Jack Dixon

Should

Jon Evans
Dan Evans

So from Dragons, Lewis Evans has been there or thereabouts. Nic Cudd was one of the form Welsh 7s in the league (especially in a misfiring team) and the two young guys are highly thought of at the minute. For the shoulds, I think Jon Evans deserved to tour Japan this summer and Dan Evans probably would've gained more caps if he wasn't forced to play 10 a few games (when he's much more accomplished at 15). Dan could/should've been the Welsh fullback in Japan (with Sanjay wing over Prydie or especially Howells).

I am not sure how the capped for 2nd tier nations thing works, I think that in the PI, a AB capped player can play for their island of birth or similar.

If a USA capped player could play for England grounds of no longer in the squad and residency qualified Samu Manoa is one hell of a player at Saints.

Bearing mind how the Eagles are hardly the best around, it is beyond belief that he is not in their squad.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Quins:

Should/could be capped- Lowe (though his time has gone), Wallace, Guest (see Lowe), Gray -- in the more distant future - maybe Chisholm, Walker, Matthews, Buchanan, Botica if he picks UK, Clifford, Sinckler

That's harsh on Lowe, CJ. He's 23. It's only because he broke into the the first XV so early that it feels like he's one of the senior players. If his time has passed, it's primarily because Tuilagi is even younger and fits the modern ideal of an OC better. But Lowe has a potential role to play as a Conrad Smith type - not particularly big or obviously fast (though Lowe is pretty quick), but does a lot of things very well. I doubt he would ever be the default first choice selection, but he has a potential role to play in certain game plans.

Of the others, Guest's time has probably passed, but all of the others are definitely in the "could" camp. Perhaps Botica shades into the "should be assiduously courted by England management" camp... And if early season reports are to be believed, it could be a breakthrough season for Will Collier this year, which could be good for England. Even if all he achieves is pushing PDJ to improve, England need to close the gap between Cole and the next layer of tightheads. It's possible that Tom Casson will become a "could" if he can stay fit and make the 12 shirt his own.

I think England are probably in a good position in terms of "shoulds". Of current players who you'd expect to feature strongly in 2015, pretty much all of them are in the EPS or Saxons, so it becomes a question of who "should" play more. For me, that means Twelvetrees, Wood and Robshaw, though there are plenty who'd disagree with me.

I'm genuinely shocked that Lowe is only 23, i was convinced he was a similar age to Brown and Robshaw! Nice to be wrong in this case.

How old was he when he got his first Quins cap, 18?

He's retired now but for Eng you can probably put Skinner in the should have been capped bracket. And perhaps Kohn.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I am not sure how the capped for 2nd tier nations thing works, I think that in the PI, a AB capped player can play for their island of birth or similar.

If a USA capped player could play for England grounds of no longer in the squad and residency qualified Samu Manoa is one hell of a player at Saints.

Bearing mind how the Eagles are hardly the best around, it is beyond belief that he is not in  their squad.

You are joking aren't you? From what I have seen, he is a ruddy good player who would give the selectors of a lot of countries food for thought if he was available and not cup tied to the US and A.

Kohn was technically capped

Manoa doesn't play for the USA because he has an understanding with Saints not to, I believe. Many players from smaller national teams have a similar arrangement

ChequeredJersey wrote:Manoa doesn't play for the USA because he has an understanding with Saints not to, I believe. Many players from smaller national teams have a similar arrangement

That cant be correct as it is highly against IRB regulations clubs could be heavily fined for doing such...

Bloody hell! I had read that the French were "discouraging" PI guys from playing from their national side but god help us and the game if the owners of the English (or any other country's) clubs join in that nonsense.

OK, i worded that poorly and apologies to Saints for doing so. It's not stopping them from doing so contractually but evidently his arrangement with Saints is such that he chooses them over his country because otherwise he would be selected by the Eagles as he is by far their best forward

ChequeredJersey wrote:OK, i worded that poorly and apologies to Saints for doing so. It's not stopping them from doing so contractually but evidently his arrangement with Saints is such that he chooses them over his country because otherwise he would be selected by the Eagles as he is by far their best forward

Sounds incredibly unfair on a minor international team...!

Players like Wyles and Manoa tend to play for them in World Cups etc but in the end it's their choice what they prioritise and I suppose their clubs offer them a better chance of silverware

ChequeredJersey wrote:Players like Wyles and Manoa tend to play for them in World Cups etc but in the end it's their choice what they prioritise and I suppose their clubs offer them a better chance of silverware

Saints haven't been in the running for silverware for years..?

This sounds too much like the thin end of a wedge to me. Ok, the contract may not actually say that a guy won't be released for international duty but I am sure that there will be some "behind the scenes" guff going on where players are lent on and then "voluntarily" step down from all international games except the World Cup

Uh oh, what have I done?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Uh oh, what have I done?

Is this what is going on in the premiership too? The French have been accused of it. They tried to get players to sign contracts where they would not play international rugby.

It is against the IRBs laws and should not be permitted. If a club was caught doing so, particularly to player from a less wealthy nation they should be severely punished.

Don't want this to detract this thread so opened a new one in the club section

https://www.606v2.com/t47163-cj-thinks-saint-refuse-to-let-samu-manoa-play-international-rugby-in-his-contract-is-this-fact#2232226

funnyExiledScot wrote:IYA - the Bennett club is a cult. Do not question, just obey.

He is the Messiah. He will be a Lion in 2017. NZ will fear him.

I am delighted that you have come to see reason at last - I am also saddened that it has taken so long for a man of your considerable inteliigence!

PS You missed out the 'He is the new Jim Renwick' strap line - please include this on all future correspondence - thank you  

Interesting comparison, ASBO. Out of interest, do you think Renwick has been our best ever centre?
I'm struggling to come up with an alternative although Keith Robertson was an extremely good player but he was shifted to the wing. I was never a massive Scott Hastings fan but it is only when you see our options over the last few years that you realise how good he was.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Kohn was technically capped

Having reflected on this, I think the word you're looking for is "crocked". I don't know what Wales did to him, but he was never the same again.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Interesting comparison, ASBO. Out of interest, do you think Renwick has been our best ever centre?
I'm struggling to come up with an alternative although Keith Robertson was an extremely good player but he was shifted to the wing. I was never a massive Scott Hastings fan but it is only when you see our options over the last few years that you realise how good he was.

I think that he might have been the most skilful broken field runner. His colleague David Johnston was incredibly fast too.
Renwick has 7 kids, so he must be quite the swordsman too.

There was a young man in our 1934 team called Wilson Shaw who was faster than the proverbial poopie off a shovel and he was almost single handedly responsible for the backline play that won us our first Triple Crown in 1938. But you'd need a centurian like Asbo to tell you more.

Scott Hastings was the most complete centre of my generation.

Alan Tait gets an honourable mention too, George.
I played golf with David Johnstone a few years ago. He ad to do a stretching routine like the one Woody Harrelson did in White Men Can't Jump. His back is shot to pieces.
I should know but who played in the centre in the 84 Grand Slam team?

Two Watsonians IYA, David Johnston and Euan Kennedy.

Renwick retired the year before, presumably to start making all those babies.

Jeez, time flies. I thought Euan Kennedy was after that. My memory of him was putting the shoulder (legally) into a Welsh guy's gut (I think it may have been Bleddyn Bowen) and causing the poor guy all sorts of pain.
Are you an ex-Watsonian? You must be a bit worried about them at the moment although with the recruiting they have done recently, their budget for this season does seem to be quite close to Edinburgh's.

Poorfour wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Kohn was technically capped

Having reflected on this, I think the word you're looking for is "crocked". I don't know what Wales did to him, but he was never the same again.

Too right! Quins should be claiming a lot of compensation for what ever they did to him. Poor Ollie, he never did get over his appearance for them.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Interesting comparison, ASBO. Out of interest, do you think Renwick has been our best ever centre?
I'm struggling to come up with an alternative although Keith Robertson was an extremely good player but he was shifted to the wing. I was never a massive Scott Hastings fan but it is only when you see our options over the last few years that you realise how good he was.

I think he is up there, IYA, along with Geech and Johnstone (not a big fan of Hastings either tbh).

I've still yet to see a better centre combination for Scotland than Leslie and Tait. Tait was so good at reading Leslie, and Leslie always seemed to have time with the ball and manage to offload. A top class centre partnership.

I preferred Scott Hastings in his early years. When he lost his pace he became a little bit average. His distribution skills were never of the highest order.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I've still yet to see a better centre combination for Scotland than Leslie and Tait. Tait was so good at reading Leslie, and Leslie always seemed to have time with the ball and manage to offload. A top class centre partnership.

I preferred Scott Hastings in his early years. When he lost his pace he became a little bit average. His distribution skills were never of the highest order.

Bit young for me, but yes, an excellent pairing

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I've still yet to see a better centre combination for Scotland than Leslie and Tait. Tait was so good at reading Leslie, and Leslie always seemed to have time with the ball and manage to offload. A top class centre partnership.

I preferred Scott Hastings in his early years. When he lost his pace he became a little bit average. His distribution skills were never of the highest order.

Bit young for me, but yes, an excellent pairing

George Carlin wrote:

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Interesting comparison, ASBO. Out of interest, do you think Renwick has been our best ever centre?
I'm struggling to come up with an alternative although Keith Robertson was an extremely good player but he was shifted to the wing. I was never a massive Scott Hastings fan but it is only when you see our options over the last few years that you realise how good he was.

I think that he might have been the most skilful broken field runner. His colleague David Johnston was incredibly fast too.
Renwick has 7 kids, so he must be quite the swordsman too.

There was a young man in our 1934 team called Wilson Shaw who was faster than the proverbial poopie off a shovel and he was almost single handedly responsible for the backline play that won us our first Triple Crown in 1938. But you'd need a centurian like Asbo to tell you more.

Scott Hastings was the most complete centre of my generation.

Yes, I remember young Shaw - lovely player with ball in hand, but couldn't kick for toffee and as we used to say "didn't like to get his troosers dirty"

ASBO - out of interest, what was the atmosphere like at Raeburn Place in 1871 when Scotland defeated England at the first ever international rugby match?

funnyExiledScot wrote:ASBO - out of interest, what was the atmosphere like at Raeburn Place in 1871 when Scotland defeated England at the first ever international rugby match?

The place was rocking, fES - I doubt you MFLs will ever be able to recreate that - the lads walked in from all the outlying villages like Musselburgh, Newington and Corstorphine - I even bumped into a group of farm hands from Hawick - sunk a few with them

Hawick you say - well hopefully their great great grandchildren are looking forward making that same pilgrimage this season. I look forward to welcoming all 7 of them....

Us MFLs don't do "atmosphere" at sporting events. It's so blue collar.

funnyExiledScot wrote:ASBO - out of interest, what was the atmosphere like at Raeburn Place in 1871 when Scotland defeated England at the first ever international rugby match?

Thank god the current NIMBY's who reside in Stockbridge were not around in the 1870's or international rugby would never have started

Back on topic, Tait and Leslie were outstanding in 1999 but we can't overlook that Townsend was at his rime at stand off then too. Lineen and Hastings were pretty useful; nothing flash or spectacular but quietly effective

That's true IYA, and Glenn Metcalfe ran great lines back in 1999 as well, making Leslie look even better.

I'd love to see Elliott Daly from Wasps get capped - he's one to keep an eye on.

Good player, but I always think he's a bit lightweight to be a centre. Great running with ball in hand though, and picks good lines.

Not convinced he's better at centre than at fullback though.