Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
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TRUSSMAN66
JabMachineMK2
The Terror of Tylorstown
OasisBFC
two_tone
88Chris05
WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs
Rowley
TopHat24/7
mobilemaster8
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Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Sure Ward has beaten Froch and Kessler, Dawson (catchweight) and Abraham...............less than four year longevity....
However Mayweather is such a huge win and chuck in Mosley and unification with Trout plus the fact he's p4p already....
Could be irrelevant but I think Canelo should get the top slot If he beats Floyd...........
Although I'd be reluctant to argue too much.............
However Mayweather is such a huge win and chuck in Mosley and unification with Trout plus the fact he's p4p already....
Could be irrelevant but I think Canelo should get the top slot If he beats Floyd...........
Although I'd be reluctant to argue too much.............
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Errrr id probably disagree although was thinking the same last night after watching access all areas.
His quality of opposition for 38 or 39 fights was pathetic. He has since beat a past it Mosley, a lightweight in Lopez i think, his only real good win is Trout who again was relatively unproven bar Cotto who had been in some wars and a a few defeats.
If Alvarez beats mayweather, for me, he goes into the top 5 at a push.
His quality of opposition for 38 or 39 fights was pathetic. He has since beat a past it Mosley, a lightweight in Lopez i think, his only real good win is Trout who again was relatively unproven bar Cotto who had been in some wars and a a few defeats.
If Alvarez beats mayweather, for me, he goes into the top 5 at a push.
mobilemaster8- Posts : 4302
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
You not think in analysis Mayweather win added to Trout................
Is enough to promote him above a Dawson catchweight and Froch.........
Kessler and Froch exposed eachothers limitations.........and Abraham was good but no cigar...
Sometimes two excellent wins can be better than four very good ones.........
Is enough to promote him above a Dawson catchweight and Froch.........
Kessler and Froch exposed eachothers limitations.........and Abraham was good but no cigar...
Sometimes two excellent wins can be better than four very good ones.........
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
He won't, but to entertain the OP, I think it's an interesting call. A good example is looking at how Rigo's status changed after beating the p4p #3/4. Did everyone let him leapfrog into that position? I don't think they did, others' consistency and better record lessened the impact.
If Canelo were to win, I think he goes top 5. But it's still not enough to topple the great one.
If Canelo were to win, I think he goes top 5. But it's still not enough to topple the great one.
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Not for me, obviously he gets a huge boost in the rankings but for me P4P is about a body of work and consistency over a period of time. One win is not enough to go straight to the top of the rankings. Going back a good number of years would be fairly confident Turpin did not go to the top of the rankings when he beat Robbo and rightly so.
Rowley- Admin
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Mayweather is Mayweather he's streets ahead...so what If you beat the world number 4...
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Yea Rigo is up there on everyone's list so given Canelo is currently higher P4P than Rigo was pre donaire and that Mayweather is a bigger win than Donaire than yes, I can see the argument that he becomes number 1 P4P especialy given ward activity or lack of recently
Maybe there is the argument that JMM could claim to be higher than him given his longetivity coupled with his wins over Pacquiao and Bradley should he win
A problem I would have though is that Canelo will most likely win by using his size or ctching him cold, not because he's more talented and as fighters go i don't think Canelo is as skilled p4p than ward or Rigo etc but he does have time on his side
Maybe there is the argument that JMM could claim to be higher than him given his longetivity coupled with his wins over Pacquiao and Bradley should he win
A problem I would have though is that Canelo will most likely win by using his size or ctching him cold, not because he's more talented and as fighters go i don't think Canelo is as skilled p4p than ward or Rigo etc but he does have time on his side
Last edited by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs- Posts : 3136
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Skill should never overshadow achievement...........
Might as well put Patterson ahead of Foreman..
Might as well put Patterson ahead of Foreman..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
One shouldn't forget that Mccrory elevated Don above Marvin...The established number 1..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Nope, not for me anyway. Top five, sure.
Granted, beating Mayweather would be absolutely huge, but aside from that we're talking one good win over Trout and nothing else of any real significance in 40-odd fights.
As a side note, to me, just using my eyes I could never see Alvarez as a pound for pound top dog, either. Compared to a Mayweather, a Ward, a Rigondeaux, a Marquez etc, his skill set and approach is limited and I don't think he has anywhere near as much class as a fighter as those fellas have. I guess what I mean there is that even if he does somehow pull of the wonder upset this time, I don't see him as a "better" fighter than those names as of yet, and that's not to mention his comparatively thin record.
Suspect none of this will matter too much, anyhow, as Alvarez just doesn't have the tools to beat Floyd right now for my money.
Granted, beating Mayweather would be absolutely huge, but aside from that we're talking one good win over Trout and nothing else of any real significance in 40-odd fights.
As a side note, to me, just using my eyes I could never see Alvarez as a pound for pound top dog, either. Compared to a Mayweather, a Ward, a Rigondeaux, a Marquez etc, his skill set and approach is limited and I don't think he has anywhere near as much class as a fighter as those fellas have. I guess what I mean there is that even if he does somehow pull of the wonder upset this time, I don't see him as a "better" fighter than those names as of yet, and that's not to mention his comparatively thin record.
Suspect none of this will matter too much, anyhow, as Alvarez just doesn't have the tools to beat Floyd right now for my money.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Chavez was p4p number 1 and Hagler was p4p number 1...Two guys without great skill sets...
Like I said If skill set was that important...stick Patterson above Foreman..
Like I said If skill set was that important...stick Patterson above Foreman..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
I'm not saying that skill overshadows achievement, Truss, but when you're talking fine margins and separating the very, very best from the best of the rest, other factors have to come in to play.
It's the way Roy Jones kept that number one spot in so many people's minds throughout, say, 1998 to 2001.
During that period you had guys like Oscar and Trinidad (later Mosley too, for a short while) who were winning fights, and doing so against opposition that in general was just as good as Roy's - if not better. But they weren't making the fans go "wow" every time they fought the way Jones did, and weren't showing that same air of genius and virtuosity.
It's the way Roy Jones kept that number one spot in so many people's minds throughout, say, 1998 to 2001.
During that period you had guys like Oscar and Trinidad (later Mosley too, for a short while) who were winning fights, and doing so against opposition that in general was just as good as Roy's - if not better. But they weren't making the fans go "wow" every time they fought the way Jones did, and weren't showing that same air of genius and virtuosity.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?
two_tone- Posts : 818
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TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
On the canvass??two_tone wrote:Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?
He Canelo wins, PBF stays #1 because Canelo only goes top 5. Floyd stays top 15 atg.
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Damn you!TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The canvas ??
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
That's a good point...Mayweather has been at the top for 15 years so a drop out of the top 5 with one loss doesn't seem fair and yet you can't have the victor lower..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
if alvarez was a light welter and moving up to fight floyd then yes i'd have no issues with him being number 1. however he's taller, heavier, stronger and younger. all assets that should result in a win, if he wasn't facing such special opposition.
OasisBFC- Posts : 1050
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
All hyperthetical anyway as Mayweather will likely win. Stick to the day jobs boys, comedy isn't your strong suit
two_tone- Posts : 818
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Are you serious..TopHat24/7 wrote:On the canvass??two_tone wrote:Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?
He Canelo wins, PBF stays #1 because Canelo only goes top 5. Floyd stays top 15 atg.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Depends on how Mayweather loses, really.
If he dropped a razor-thin, contentious verdict then you could still justify having him ahead of Alvarez in any case, and it'd be difficult to leave him out of the top two / three at worst.
Similarly, if he easily outboxes Alvarez for eight or nine rounds before, out of the blue, Alvarez finds a once in a career shot which flattens Floyd, then we could happily deduce that such a result is very much the exception rather than the rule, and again Mayweather's standing wouldn't be too badly effected.
I think anything other than an absolute tonking sees Mayweather remain in the upper echelons even if he does lose, and let's be frank, if Alvarez wins this it's unlikely to be by any other method outside of a very close decision on the cards.
If he dropped a razor-thin, contentious verdict then you could still justify having him ahead of Alvarez in any case, and it'd be difficult to leave him out of the top two / three at worst.
Similarly, if he easily outboxes Alvarez for eight or nine rounds before, out of the blue, Alvarez finds a once in a career shot which flattens Floyd, then we could happily deduce that such a result is very much the exception rather than the rule, and again Mayweather's standing wouldn't be too badly effected.
I think anything other than an absolute tonking sees Mayweather remain in the upper echelons even if he does lose, and let's be frank, if Alvarez wins this it's unlikely to be by any other method outside of a very close decision on the cards.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Don't think you can have a number 1 who loses his last fight...
Set a new precedent If you did.
Set a new precedent If you did.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
I think he slips down if he loses in those scenarios I mentioned, Truss, but no lower than, say, number two or three and well in the hunt to regain top spot if he won a rematch.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Not sure what your problem is?TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Are you serious..TopHat24/7 wrote:On the canvass??two_tone wrote:Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?
He Canelo wins, PBF stays #1 because Canelo only goes top 5. Floyd stays top 15 atg.
Unless you mean my first word typo. It was meant to say 'If' Canelo wins (which he won't).
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't think you can have a number 1 who loses his last fight...
Set a new precedent If you did.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
How does 1 loss suddenly boost the CV of everyone below him though?TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't think you can have a number 1 who loses his last fight...
Set a new precedent If you did.
He's still much more talented, with a better overall record/CV and, as you constantly labour to point out, has been at or near the top for over a decade.
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
It doesn't.... but the thought the number 1 fighter p4p can be a guy who's lost to another fighter out there..in his last fight
Doesn't hold water..and never has.
Doesn't hold water..and never has.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Depends how far ahead the #1 is.
If it's:
1. Floyd
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2. Ward
Then he has plenty of room for his record to take a bit of a knock and still be ahead.
If it was razor thin, like when he was battling with Pac a few years ago, then I'd be more agreeable to your point.
If it's:
1. Floyd
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2. Ward
Then he has plenty of room for his record to take a bit of a knock and still be ahead.
If it was razor thin, like when he was battling with Pac a few years ago, then I'd be more agreeable to your point.
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Someone beats you how can you be the BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
geez..
geez..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Somebody beating him at light middleweight is different to him being beaten at welterweight, as far as 154lbs goes Alvarez is the man to beat so such a loss is less damaging. Losing to Guerrero or anyone at 147lbs can have big ramifications on his overall standing let alone current standing.
The Terror of Tylorstown- Posts : 685
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Because, as I and pretty much everyone else had said on this thread, Canelo won't leapfrog Floyd if he wins. It's a preposterous notion. Add that to the fact pretty much everyone below Floyd has also lost at some point reinforces the point.
The only (unbeaten) person with a claim is a guy who would've last fought over a year ago - which by a lot of people's measures could preclude him from the list entirely.
The only (unbeaten) person with a claim is a guy who would've last fought over a year ago - which by a lot of people's measures could preclude him from the list entirely.
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
He'll have to leap frog him If he wins..
Honey leapfrogged Curry...Rosario - Bramble...
If you beat someone up how can he be better than you...
Is Marquez higher than Manny ???? Yes sirreeeeeeeeee
Honey leapfrogged Curry...Rosario - Bramble...
If you beat someone up how can he be better than you...
Is Marquez higher than Manny ???? Yes sirreeeeeeeeee
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
You're forgetting the whole 'pound for pound' aspect of all this.
The Terror of Tylorstown- Posts : 685
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Honey went to 8.............and Curry left the top 12.........
Bramble left top 12.......Rosario came in at 9.........as I recall.........
So I'm not...
Bramble left top 12.......Rosario came in at 9.........as I recall.........
So I'm not...
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Throws him into a top 3 for me. I think personally that it'll be a defining win as Floyd is still on top. Canelo will easily hit #1 within 2 years if he beats Mayweather as he'll have by then at least 6 outstanding victories (if he keeps winning)
We'll see though
We'll see though
JabMachineMK2- Posts : 2383
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Honeyghan was a welterweight as was Curry
Rosario was a lightweight as was Bramble
Different situations Truss as you well know, Welterweight aside from super featherweight is where the real depth of Mayweathers record lays, what he does at light middleweight helps but he's not judged as harshly for a loss there.
Rosario was a lightweight as was Bramble
Different situations Truss as you well know, Welterweight aside from super featherweight is where the real depth of Mayweathers record lays, what he does at light middleweight helps but he's not judged as harshly for a loss there.
The Terror of Tylorstown- Posts : 685
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Light heavy was where spinks best victories and chuck in Holmes twice... but he didn't stay above Tyson..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Funny, not many on here seem to agree with you though Truss. And including some pretty eminent posters also, not just doofus's like me.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He'll have to leap frog him If he wins..
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Did Rahman jump into top 10 p4p when he ko'd Lennox?
And Leon Spinks when he beat Ali?
And Leon Spinks when he beat Ali?
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
TRUSS has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to those in the know. Tends to ignore the glaringly obvious when they point it out and instead relies on abusing the rest to try and detract from the fact that his opinion (which he's entitled to hold) isn't as good as he originally thought.TopHat24/7 wrote:Funny, not many on here seem to agree with you though Truss. And including some pretty eminent posters also, not just doofus's like me.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He'll have to leap frog him If he wins..
Guest- Guest
Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Your place on here... is as the comic turn Dave.....with a bit of slayer chucked in..
Best you remember that.....and stick to your level...
As for not many agreeing well so what.........I don't need safety in numbers when I'm debating..
Best you remember that.....and stick to your level...
As for not many agreeing well so what.........I don't need safety in numbers when I'm debating..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
No, you're quite happy alone on your own little Truss-island.
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
I don't mind you really.....You usually add one line of abuse and run a long....
You don't take up much space......which saves time looking for more meaningful contributors..
You don't take up much space......which saves time looking for more meaningful contributors..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40690
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Big If, massive If, I think he has a punchers chance and that's it. He would also be beating Mayweather at the weight above.... If he wins this its going to be on size.
He would definitely be up there, but not number 1.
He would definitely be up there, but not number 1.
BoxingFan88- Posts : 3759
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
He wont be number 1 in my eyes, but then i think Ward is number 1 above Floyd now. Definitely would consider Alvarez in the top 3 if he wins though.
hogey- Posts : 1367
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Canelo goes number 1 for me if he wins. I don't quite understand the thinking on here. Flloyd is number 1 and deservedly so. if canelo beats him he rightfully goes above him, which means he has to be number 1. the pound for pound argument carries little weight for me. flloyd has fought twice at LMW and is fighting this just below at a catchweight, should be no excuses if he loses. Its canelo who is having to come down in weight and possibly more out of his comfort zone. flloyd has been capable of fighting at LMW for several years and shouldn't get let off the hook if he takes a fight there and loses.
flloyd is the best fighter in the world right now, which is why even given the weight difference most on here have him as a big favourite. nothing other than a monumental performance in which canelo proves himself to be much greater than anyone on here has given him credit to be will see him beat flloyd, and should make him nailed on number pound for pound fighter
flloyd is the best fighter in the world right now, which is why even given the weight difference most on here have him as a big favourite. nothing other than a monumental performance in which canelo proves himself to be much greater than anyone on here has given him credit to be will see him beat flloyd, and should make him nailed on number pound for pound fighter
Lance- Posts : 1712
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
Split Decision Canelo 'robbery' too much corruption and yes Canelo number 1.
PPVxHOTTY- Posts : 455
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Re: Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???
I agree...........Canelo is in the list already..........Floyd is miles ahead of anyother fighter..............Lance wrote:Canelo goes number 1 for me if he wins. I don't quite understand the thinking on here. Flloyd is number 1 and deservedly so. if canelo beats him he rightfully goes above him, which means he has to be number 1. the pound for pound argument carries little weight for me. flloyd has fought twice at LMW and is fighting this just below at a catchweight, should be no excuses if he loses. Its canelo who is having to come down in weight and possibly more out of his comfort zone. flloyd has been capable of fighting at LMW for several years and shouldn't get let off the hook if he takes a fight there and loses.
flloyd is the best fighter in the world right now, which is why even given the weight difference most on here have him as a big favourite. nothing other than a monumental performance in which canelo proves himself to be much greater than anyone on here has given him credit to be will see him beat flloyd, and should make him nailed on number pound for pound fighter
Those two reasons alone swing it for me..........
Ward is outstanding but froch had lost to Kessler...........and kessler to Calzaghe...........and his best win was catchweight........with Chad coming to 168........
A deserved second though for sure..........
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