Canelo beats Floyd - Should he be number 1 p4p ???

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 11:34 am

Sure Ward has beaten Froch and Kessler, Dawson (catchweight) and Abraham...............less than four year longevity....

However Mayweather is such a huge win and chuck in Mosley and unification with Trout plus the fact he's p4p already....

Could be irrelevant but I think Canelo should get the top slot If he beats Floyd...........

Although I'd be reluctant to argue too much.............

by mobilemaster8 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 11:42 am

Errrr id probably disagree although was thinking the same last night after watching access all areas.

His quality of opposition for 38 or 39 fights was pathetic. He has since beat a past it Mosley, a lightweight in Lopez i think, his only real good win is Trout who again was relatively unproven bar Cotto who had been in some wars and a a few defeats.

If Alvarez beats mayweather, for me, he goes into the top 5 at a push.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 11:51 am

You not think in analysis Mayweather win added to Trout................

Is enough to promote him above a Dawson catchweight and Froch.........

Kessler and Froch exposed eachothers limitations.........and Abraham was good but no cigar...

Sometimes two excellent wins can be better than four very good ones.........

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 11:56 am

He won't, but to entertain the OP, I think it's an interesting call. A good example is looking at how Rigo's status changed after beating the p4p #3/4. Did everyone let him leapfrog into that position? I don't think they did, others' consistency and better record lessened the impact.

If Canelo were to win, I think he goes top 5. But it's still not enough to topple the great one.

by Rowley Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:16 pm

Not for me, obviously he gets a huge boost in the rankings but for me P4P is about a body of work and consistency over a period of time. One win is not enough to go straight to the top of the rankings. Going back a good number of years would be fairly confident Turpin did not go to the top of the rankings when he beat Robbo and rightly so.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:19 pm

Mayweather is Mayweather he's streets ahead...so what If you beat the world number 4...

by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:19 pm

Yea Rigo is up there on everyone's list so given Canelo is currently higher P4P than Rigo was pre donaire and that Mayweather is a bigger win than Donaire than yes, I can see the argument that he becomes number 1 P4P especialy given ward activity or lack of recently

Maybe there is the argument that JMM could claim to be higher than him given his longetivity coupled with his wins over Pacquiao and Bradley should he win

A problem I would have though is that Canelo will most likely win by using his size or ctching him cold, not because he's more talented and as fighters go i don't think Canelo is as skilled p4p than ward or Rigo etc but he does have time on his side

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:22 pm

Skill should never overshadow achievement...........

Might as well put Patterson ahead of Foreman..

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:28 pm

One shouldn't forget that Mccrory elevated Don above Marvin...The established number 1..

by **88Chris05** Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:35 pm

Nope, not for me anyway. Top five, sure.

Granted, beating Mayweather would be absolutely huge, but aside from that we're talking one good win over Trout and nothing else of any real significance in 40-odd fights.

As a side note, to me, just using my eyes I could never see Alvarez as a pound for pound top dog, either. Compared to a Mayweather, a Ward, a Rigondeaux, a Marquez etc, his skill set and approach is limited and I don't think he has anywhere near as much class as a fighter as those fellas have. I guess what I mean there is that even if he does somehow pull of the wonder upset this time, I don't see him as a "better" fighter than those names as of yet, and that's not to mention his comparatively thin record.

Suspect none of this will matter too much, anyhow, as Alvarez just doesn't have the tools to beat Floyd right now for my money.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:37 pm

Chavez was p4p number 1 and Hagler was p4p number 1...Two guys without great skill sets...

Like I said If skill set was that important...stick Patterson above Foreman..

by **88Chris05** Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:42 pm

I'm not saying that skill overshadows achievement, Truss, but when you're talking fine margins and separating the very, very best from the best of the rest, other factors have to come in to play.

It's the way Roy Jones kept that number one spot in so many people's minds throughout, say, 1998 to 2001.

During that period you had guys like Oscar and Trinidad (later Mosley too, for a short while) who were winning fights, and doing so against opposition that in general was just as good as Roy's - if not better. But they weren't making the fans go "wow" every time they fought the way Jones did, and weren't showing that same air of genius and virtuosity.

by two_tone Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:50 pm

Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 12:56 pm

The canvas ??

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:02 pm

two_tone wrote:Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?

On the canvass??

He Canelo wins, PBF stays #1 because Canelo only goes top 5. Floyd stays top 15 atg.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:03 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The canvas ??

Damn you!

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:04 pm

That's a good point...Mayweather has been at the top for 15 years so a drop out of the top 5 with one loss doesn't seem fair and yet you can't have the victor lower..

by OasisBFC Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:04 pm

if alvarez was a light welter and moving up to fight floyd then yes i'd have no issues with him being number 1. however he's taller, heavier, stronger and younger. all assets that should result in a win, if he wasn't facing such special opposition.

by two_tone Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:08 pm

All hyperthetical anyway as Mayweather will likely win. Stick to the day jobs boys, comedy isn't your strong suit Wink

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:09 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
two_tone wrote:Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?
On the canvass??

He Canelo wins, PBF stays #1 because Canelo only goes top 5. Floyd stays top 15 atg.

Are you serious..

by **88Chris05** Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:14 pm

Depends on how Mayweather loses, really.

If he dropped a razor-thin, contentious verdict then you could still justify having him ahead of Alvarez in any case, and it'd be difficult to leave him out of the top two / three at worst.

Similarly, if he easily outboxes Alvarez for eight or nine rounds before, out of the blue, Alvarez finds a once in a career shot which flattens Floyd, then we could happily deduce that such a result is very much the exception rather than the rule, and again Mayweather's standing wouldn't be too badly effected.

I think anything other than an absolute tonking sees Mayweather remain in the upper echelons even if he does lose, and let's be frank, if Alvarez wins this it's unlikely to be by any other method outside of a very close decision on the cards.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:19 pm

Don't think you can have a number 1 who loses his last fight...

Set a new precedent If you did.

by **88Chris05** Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:24 pm

I think he slips down if he loses in those scenarios I mentioned, Truss, but no lower than, say, number two or three and well in the hunt to regain top spot if he won a rematch.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:31 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
two_tone wrote:Where do people think Mayweather would land if he was to be beaten?
On the canvass??

He Canelo wins, PBF stays #1 because Canelo only goes top 5. Floyd stays top 15 atg.
Are you serious..

Not sure what your problem is?

Unless you mean my first word typo. It was meant to say 'If' Canelo wins (which he won't).

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:32 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't think you can have a number 1 who loses his last fight...

Set a new precedent If you did.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:33 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't think you can have a number 1 who loses his last fight...

Set a new precedent If you did.

How does 1 loss suddenly boost the CV of everyone below him though?

He's still much more talented, with a better overall record/CV and, as you constantly labour to point out, has been at or near the top for over a decade.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:35 pm

It doesn't.... but the thought the number 1 fighter p4p can be a guy who's lost to another fighter out there..in his last fight

Doesn't hold water..and never has.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:38 pm

Depends how far ahead the #1 is.

If it's:

1. Floyd
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2. Ward

Then he has plenty of room for his record to take a bit of a knock and still be ahead.

If it was razor thin, like when he was battling with Pac a few years ago, then I'd be more agreeable to your point.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:41 pm

Someone beats you how can you be the BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

geez..

by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:44 pm

Somebody beating him at light middleweight is different to him being beaten at welterweight, as far as 154lbs goes Alvarez is the man to beat so such a loss is less damaging. Losing to Guerrero or anyone at 147lbs can have big ramifications on his overall standing let alone current standing.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:44 pm

Because, as I and pretty much everyone else had said on this thread, Canelo won't leapfrog Floyd if he wins. It's a preposterous notion. Add that to the fact pretty much everyone below Floyd has also lost at some point reinforces the point.

The only (unbeaten) person with a claim is a guy who would've last fought over a year ago - which by a lot of people's measures could preclude him from the list entirely.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:52 pm

He'll have to leap frog him If he wins..

Honey leapfrogged Curry...Rosario - Bramble...

If you beat someone up how can he be better than you...

Is Marquez higher than Manny ???? Yes sirreeeeeeeeee

by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:57 pm

You're forgetting the whole 'pound for pound' aspect of all this.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 1:58 pm

Honey went to 8.............and Curry left the top 12.........

Bramble left top 12.......Rosario came in at 9.........as I recall.........

So I'm not...

by JabMachineMK2 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 2:02 pm

Throws him into a top 3 for me. I think personally that it'll be a defining win as Floyd is still on top. Canelo will easily hit #1 within 2 years if he beats Mayweather as he'll have by then at least 6 outstanding victories (if he keeps winning)

We'll see though

by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue 27 Aug 2013, 2:03 pm

Honeyghan was a welterweight as was Curry

Rosario was a lightweight as was Bramble

Different situations Truss as you well know, Welterweight aside from super featherweight is where the real depth of Mayweathers record lays, what he does at light middleweight helps but he's not judged as harshly for a loss there.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 2:07 pm

Light heavy was where spinks best victories and chuck in Holmes twice... but he didn't stay above Tyson..

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 2:39 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He'll have to leap frog him If he wins..

Funny, not many on here seem to agree with you though Truss. And including some pretty eminent posters also, not just doofus's like me.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 2:40 pm

Did Rahman jump into top 10 p4p when he ko'd Lennox?

And Leon Spinks when he beat Ali?

by Guest Tue 27 Aug 2013, 2:42 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He'll have to leap frog him If he wins..

Funny, not many on here seem to agree with you though Truss. And including some pretty eminent posters also, not just doofus's like me.

TRUSS has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to those in the know. Tends to ignore the glaringly obvious when they point it out and instead relies on abusing the rest to try and detract from the fact that his opinion (which he's entitled to hold) isn't as good as he originally thought.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 3:56 pm

Your place on here... is as the comic turn Dave.....with a bit of slayer chucked in..

Best you remember that.....and stick to your level...

As for not many agreeing well so what.........I don't need safety in numbers when I'm debating..

by TopHat24/7 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 4:14 pm

No, you're quite happy alone on your own little Truss-island.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 4:22 pm

I don't mind you really.....You usually add one line of abuse and run a long....

You don't take up much space......which saves time looking for more meaningful contributors..

by BoxingFan88 Tue 27 Aug 2013, 8:42 pm

Big If, massive If, I think he has a punchers chance and that's it. He would also be beating Mayweather at the weight above.... If he wins this its going to be on size.

He would definitely be up there, but not number 1.

by hogey Tue 27 Aug 2013, 8:46 pm

He wont be number 1 in my eyes, but then i think Ward is number 1 above Floyd now. Definitely would consider Alvarez in the top 3 if he wins though.

by Lance Wed 28 Aug 2013, 2:22 am

Canelo goes number 1 for me if he wins. I don't quite understand the thinking on here. Flloyd is number 1 and deservedly so. if canelo beats him he rightfully goes above him, which means he has to be number 1. the pound for pound argument carries little weight for me. flloyd has fought twice at LMW and is fighting this just below at a catchweight, should be no excuses if he loses. Its canelo who is having to come down in weight and possibly more out of his comfort zone. flloyd has been capable of fighting at LMW for several years and shouldn't get let off the hook if he takes a fight there and loses.

flloyd is the best fighter in the world right now, which is why even given the weight difference most on here have him as a big favourite. nothing other than a monumental performance in which canelo proves himself to be much greater than anyone on here has given him credit to be will see him beat flloyd, and should make him nailed on number pound for pound fighter

by PPVxHOTTY Fri 30 Aug 2013, 12:30 pm

Split Decision Canelo 'robbery' too much corruption and yes Canelo number 1. Very Happy

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 02 Sep 2013, 9:29 am

Lance wrote:Canelo goes number 1 for me if he wins. I don't quite understand the thinking on here. Flloyd is number 1 and deservedly so. if canelo beats him he rightfully goes above him, which means he has to be number 1. the pound for pound argument carries little weight for me. flloyd has fought twice at LMW and is fighting this just below at a catchweight, should be no excuses if he loses. Its canelo who is having to come down in weight and possibly more out of his comfort zone. flloyd has been capable of fighting at LMW for several years and shouldn't get let off the hook if he takes a fight there and loses.

flloyd is the best fighter in the world right now, which is why even given the weight difference most on here have him as a big favourite. nothing other than a monumental performance in which canelo proves himself to be much greater than anyone on here has given him credit to be will see him beat flloyd, and should make him nailed on number pound for pound fighter

I agree...........Canelo is in the list already..........Floyd is miles ahead of anyother fighter..............

Those two reasons alone swing it for me..........

Ward is outstanding but froch had lost to Kessler...........and kessler to Calzaghe...........and his best win was catchweight........with Chad coming to 168........

A deserved second though for sure..........

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