If Gatland were appointed NZ coach, would he follow in the same vein as Henry and Hansen?

Of the modern era, it's hard to go past Ted as NZ's premier coach. When you look at the top echelon of NZ coaches, it's disturbing how similar their paths have been. Wales has often been used as a stepping stone to the NZ job and I wonder if that's the case because Wales tries to adopt a similar running game.

I remember many Welsh posters warning that NZ would go to the dogs with Hansen in charge. They weren't overly happy with Henry either as The Great Redeemer quickly turned into the Turd of Heaven. Now I read quite a bit that Gatland would be received with rioting on the streets if he were appointed NZ coach. I'm not so sure.

I for one was happy when Ted was given a second chance. People learn from their mistakes and throughout Henry's career you could see an evolution in the way he taught rugby most notably with how he handled the players. He moved away from the gruff headmaster role and he put on a different hat to the rest of the players. Hansen evidently took note of this as he has nurtured that team environment built under Henry and continued it. He's introduced a host of young players and told the experienced players what he wants from them. Dialogue has been kept open and new players appear to have fitted in seamlessly.

Whatever the result of the 2015 RWC Gatland won't appear in the running until well after that. The Lions series win and a Grand Slam followed up by an impressive fightback to win the tournament as well as his club successes and his brief stint with Ireland all add icing to the CV cake. It remains to be seen whether he'll come back to coach a Super 15 side. Henry and Hammett have lost their way so there is certainly an opening if he's prepared to mend bridges with Tew.

Gatlandball as it became known on the Lions tour would be refined in NZ. At its heart, it's very much the set piece game of Waikato with added frills. A solid set piece is mandatory in test rugby. For a lot of the late 90s and early 00s we moved away from that and thought we could run the ball from anywhere. You can't do that and teams like Samoa have prospered in recent times realising that the set piece is king and the foundation on which you build your team. But what you do with that ball much depends on the personnel you have at your disposal. Nonu's time is coming to an end and NZ teams might see their robust centre at 13 not 12 in the future. But Gatland knows that the real attacking weapon of NZ is their counter attack. That's when the defence is not properly set and that's where the gaps appear. That's where our passing game and the pace and breadth at which we can do it come to the fore. That's where the refinements will be made and that's where Gatland would not want to make any changes.

The big question for me with Gatland is not the tactics he would employ. There I think we would be fine. It's his team management and the way he handles the players. Henry and Hansen have built a strong team unit. The players saw Hansen as a continuity of the Henry regime. Would they see Gatland as the same and would Gatland work hard to continue that team environment or would he like to impose his way of seeing things? Perhaps coaching a Super team first would smooth that transition or perhaps I'm making too much of his media reputation.

What do you other fullas think?

Fullas. You're getting your Hori on today au.

Ben Smith has been marked as Conrad's successor to the robust 13 may be a while off.

I like the continuity Hansen's displayed and how he's put his own stamp on it. The way he's running things indicates he was very aware of what Ted and others did (including himself) and is putting those lessons to great use.

Henry achieved too much to be thrown away. All that he did in 8 years and still one game sticks in the craw for all of us-arguably as much as the last game of 2011.

I think the players would take a while to warm to Gatland to be honest. It'd be a big change for them for better or worse-so if he does come in when things are rosy I'd hope he doesn't rock the boat too much. I'm not suggesting being a reactive coach though-Hansen is doing a great job with his selections in that regard.

Would defo rather have him in Super Rugby first.

Gatland is very single minded. If he was to be apointed NZ coach the team would play his way.

Yes but what way would that be GG? A much more rounded version than the one we got for most of the Lions or Wales 6n wins. More Lions 3rd test where the ball was run back as opposed to kicked back.

You adapt your game to the strengths you have.

Gatland will never coach New Zealand and he knows it. He turned his back on a Super Rugby position before he took up the Wales offer (Chiefs I think as assistant).

There have been a few attempts at articles to stir up a bit of interest in the NZ press, but no one seems that interested.

Gatland has a reputation for wanting full control with little involvement of his senior players which seems to be unusual going on what Paul O'Connell had to say. He likes robots. Thinking players like McCaw, Thorn, Read, Conrad Smith and Carter (and many others) wouldn't be used to that.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yes but what way would that be GG? A much more rounded version than the one we got for most of the Lions or Wales 6n wins. More Lions 3rd test where the ball was run back as opposed to kicked back.

You adapt your game to the strengths you have.

I dont think the Lions used a different game plan at all in the third test. The forwards just dominated a lot more and therefore the Lions backs had so much more ball.

Halfpenny ran the ball back and two tries were scored that broke Australia's back. He hadn't done that the whole of the series up until then. George North counter attacked but that was a Barnes Super S**t Kick Special that he excels in that screamed out run it back.

Henry had the same authoritarian reputation sin e. His Australian tour with the Lions was remembered in much the same way as Gatland's though the results were the opposite. Hansen was Captain Gruff as well and Wales fans don't remember him with warm hearts either. My point is what you've seen from these coaches in the NH is not necessarily what will transpire in NZ. Being a foreign coach may encourage that authoritarian approach as you are seen as an outsider regardless of what results your team brings.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Halfpenny ran the ball back and two tries were scored that broke Australia's back. He hadn't done that the whole of the series up until then. George North counter attacked but that was a Barnes Super S**t Kick Special that he excels in that screamed out run it back.

Henry had the same authoritarian reputation sin e. His Australian tour with the Lions was remembered in much the same way as Gatland's though the results were the opposite. Hansen was Captain Gruff as well and Wales fans don't remember him with warm hearts either. My point is what you've seen from these coaches in the NH is not necessarily what will transpire in NZ. Being a foreign coach may encourage that authoritarian approach as you are seen as an outsider regardless of what results your team brings.

Henry has said he learned a lot from that Tour which he apparently spoke to Gatland about. He went back to NZ to get 'decontaminated' in Super Rugby. I'm not sure Gatland's ego would allow that to happen ... and you can be sure there will be lots of NZ coaches about who won't have to undergo that process anyway.

None of the non-Irish coaches (Schmidt, Penney, Smal, McGahan, Kiss etc) have had an authoritarian approach when in Ireland - it just seems to be how Gatland operates with Wales.

I think Gatland would be a strong candidate for NZ, given his international experience, but NZ tend to prefer more "home grown" options, so I suspect when Hansen steps down it'll be a Super XV coach appointed.

I guess it depends on whether Hansen is successful or not. If he leaves NZ with the team in a position of strength, as Henry did, then a continuity candidate makes sense. If by the next World Cup NZ have slipped, and Scotland have stolen number 1 slot, then NZ may shake things up and go with something different. Gatland would probably represent the "shake things up option".

Whatever your view of Gatland, you cannot deny the success he's had with Wasps and Wales (and now the Lions). You can get lucky once, but to sustain success with different teams over such a prolonged period is quite an achievement. He is rightly regarded as one of the top coaches in the NH.

Apparently it was between Hansen and Cotter/Schmidt team the last time round. Schmidt has more recent experience coaching in Super Rugby. If he was viewed as a candidate the last time, he certainly will be viewed as a candidate the next time as he will have international coaching experience then in a setup similar to NZ (i.e., IRFU owns the clubs in Ireland and the national team is the top priority).

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Gatland would be a strong candidate for NZ, given his international experience, but NZ tend to prefer more "home grown" options, so I suspect when Hansen steps down it'll be a Super XV coach appointed.

I guess it depends on whether Hansen is successful or not. If he leaves NZ with the team in a position of strength, as Henry did, then a continuity candidate makes sense. If by the next World Cup NZ have slipped, and Scotland have stolen number 1 slot, then NZ may shake things up and go with something different. Gatland would probably represent the "shake things up option".

Whatever your view of Gatland, you cannot deny the success he's had with Wasps and Wales (and now the Lions). You can get lucky once, but to sustain success with different teams over such a prolonged period is quite an achievement. He is rightly regarded as one of the top coaches in the NH.

Excellent comments.

I'm still cagey about him but agree, the track record is pretty good.
Its also true that NHers also thought neither Henry nor Hansen at the end of their tenures and both are now up there with the greatest %'s of all time, hansen now on 95% odd non defeats. If anything the reverse is true. Having a greater player base gives you more options and kiwis 'get' kiwis. Gats wouldnt last long with an autocratic Mitchell type style ans would be out on his ear if he dropped below the current standards.

Neither Schmidt nor Penney is a front runner at this stage though. Deans, Henry, Hansen have all had that reputation at some stage. Only Wayne Smith as a top NZ coach didn't fit that bill but Wylie and Mains sure did.

All the top NZ coaches have imposed their will on the side. That's why they're hired. Schmidt did it with Leinster. That's why they get hired. people want to seer a clear plan. There are just different ways of achieving it.

I suspect much will depend on how Schmidt gets on with Ireland as to whether he's a candidate next time round.

Plenty talent and ability in Ireland, and at Leinster Schmidt has proved himself a very innovative and clever coach (would have been my pick to coach the backs with the Lions, rather than Howley).

He's positioned himself nicely, but the performances in the next year with Ireland, and the results thereafter, will determine his standing in the international coaching community. He's taking over at a tough time, with England and Scotland both improving, and Wales already in a strong position. You'd also have to think that France cannot continue to be so awful under Saint-Andre. The next couple of 6 Nations are going to be hotly contested.

Taylorman wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Gatland would be a strong candidate for NZ, given his international experience, but NZ tend to prefer more "home grown" options, so I suspect when Hansen steps down it'll be a Super XV coach appointed.

I guess it depends on whether Hansen is successful or not. If he leaves NZ with the team in a position of strength, as Henry did, then a continuity candidate makes sense. If by the next World Cup NZ have slipped, and Scotland have stolen number 1 slot, then NZ may shake things up and go with something different. Gatland would probably represent the "shake things up option".

Whatever your view of Gatland, you cannot deny the success he's had with Wasps and Wales (and now the Lions). You can get lucky once, but to sustain success with different teams over such a prolonged period is quite an achievement. He is rightly regarded as one of the top coaches in the NH.

Excellent comments.

I'm still cagey about him but agree, the track record is pretty good.
Its also true that NHers also thought neither Henry nor Hansen at the end of their tenures and both are now up there with the greatest %'s of all time, hansen now on 95% odd non defeats. If anything the reverse is true. Having a greater player base gives you more options and kiwis 'get' kiwis. Gats wouldnt last long with an autocratic Mitchell type style ans would be out on his ear if he dropped below the current standards.

How good is Gatland's track record against Rugby Championship Teams - thats the ABs bread and butter. Teams that they beat regularly have all managed wins against SH teams. Gatland has one win at home to Australia in 6 years of coaching Wales. Even Munster (shorn of their internationals) have beaten Australia in this period.

Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

The track record of Henry and Hansen were pretty rubbish against NZ, Oz and SA as well. You can learn things from victories as well as defeats. What catches the eye is whether you can get players to play the game you want them to.

If Gatland came to NZ, he could revise what it is he wants out of his players because the talent is more rounded.

The Saint wrote:Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

Taylorman seemed to be unaware that Wales coached by Gatland have a terrible record against SH teams.

You seem to be ignoring Hansen's and Henry's record against SH teams was terrible a well.

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

Taylorman seemed to be unaware that Wales coached by Gatland have a terrible record against SH teams.

Is there anyone in the NH (bar SCW) that doesn't have a terrible record against SH teams? Hansen and Henry included as it's been put down for you. BTW, your reference to the record versus RC teams is factually incorrect . And seeing as Glasgow put more than 50 points past Munster I guess they're a better team than Australia too.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The track record of Henry and Hansen were pretty rubbish against NZ, Oz and SA as well.  You can learn things from victories as well as defeats. What catches the eye is whether you can get players to play the game you want them to.

If Gatland came to NZ, he could revise what it is he wants out of his players because the talent is more rounded.

After Wales, Henry went back to NZ and was an assistant coach for the Blues the season they won the Super Rugby title (can't remember what it was called back then).

It seems Gatland isn't prepared to do that (by turning down a Super Rugby job already).

Seems precipitous to move back when Hansen's position looks assured until 2015 RWC. I imagine he's biding his time and will assess his options after that tournament.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

Taylorman seemed to be unaware that Wales coached by Gatland have a terrible record against SH teams.

Is there anyone in the NH (bar SCW) that doesn't have a terrible record against SH teams? Hansen and Henry included as it's been put down for you. BTW, your reference to the record versus RC teams is factually incorrect . And seeing as Glasgow put more than 50 points past Munster I guess they're a better team than Australia too.

Ireland has a fairly decent record against all the teams bar NZ (and everyone has a bad record against them).

Glasgow could beat Australia and they wouldn't need as many goes as Wales have had.

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The track record of Henry and Hansen were pretty rubbish against NZ, Oz and SA as well.  You can learn things from victories as well as defeats. What catches the eye is whether you can get players to play the game you want them to.

If Gatland came to NZ, he could revise what it is he wants out of his players because the talent is more rounded.

After Wales, Henry went back to NZ and was an assistant coach for the Blues the season they won the Super Rugby title (can't remember what it was called back then).

It seems Gatland isn't prepared to do that (by turning down a Super Rugby job already).

Sin, whether or not Henry went back to Super 15 doesn't change that fact. If you weren't so into your vendetta against Gats you might be able to take some of this in. When was Gats offered this Super Rugby job? The fact is that he wasn't offered one in 2008 so chose to coach an international team that was in dire need of a good, experienced coach. I love how you can read his mind though. That's a talent.

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

Taylorman seemed to be unaware that Wales coached by Gatland have a terrible record against SH teams.

Is there anyone in the NH (bar SCW) that doesn't have a terrible record against SH teams? Hansen and Henry included as it's been put down for you. BTW, your reference to the record versus RC teams is factually incorrect . And seeing as Glasgow put more than 50 points past Munster I guess they're a better team than Australia too.

Ireland has a fairly decent record against all the teams bar NZ (and everyone has a bad record against them).

Glasgow could beat Australia and they wouldn't need as many goes as Wales have had.

They have a good record against Argentina Sin. Against the others it isn't really good, and I think it's less fixtures against the top teams as well.

Sure they could Sin,keep on dreaming.

* Taking into account EOS reign, it isn't a good record against Arg either. With Kidney it's either 2 from 2 or 3 from 3 I can't remember exactly.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Seems precipitous to move back when Hansen's position looks assured until 2015 RWC. I imagine he's biding his time and will assess his options after that tournament.

He was offered the Super Rugby assistant job in 2007 but turned it down (he had been coaching Waikato up to then).

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Seems precipitous to move back when Hansen's position looks assured until 2015 RWC. I imagine he's biding his time and will assess his options after that tournament.

He was offered the Super Rugby assistant job in 2007 but turned it down (he had been coaching Waikato up to then).

Right so that's the assistant role... Before all of this Henry had stints and success with Auckland and Blues in the Super 12. Not sure how you decipher that Gats is not willing to ever coach a S15 franchise from all of this though.

I was commenting on your comment that it seems he isn't prepared to do that (by token of already turning an assistant's role down some years ago).

If Hansen's RWC campaign goes custard, he might not have to return to NZ to get the job. If it is a success and Hansen lingers on, then he's more likely to return.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Seems precipitous to move back when Hansen's position looks assured until 2015 RWC. I imagine he's biding his time and will assess his options after that tournament.

He was offered the Super Rugby assistant job in 2007 but turned it down (he had been coaching Waikato up to then).

Right so that's the assistant role... Before all of this Henry had stints and success with Auckland and Blues in the Super 12. Not sure how you decipher that Gats is not willing to ever coach a S15 franchise from all of this though.

Henry went from being Wales / B& I Lions coach to the Blue's Defence Coach. Not sure Gatland's ego could handle that much of a comedown as he illustrated perfectly in 2007 when he turned down a Super Rugby Assistant job. If he had taken it back then, he too might have been in poll position to coach the ABs instead of Hansen (don't forget that Gatland had international rugby coaching experience at that stage as head coach with Ireland).

If he had to, I think he would, but he'd only be willing to coach the Chiefs. By that time they'd probably still have a good team. But that said if Hansenball goes to balls in 2015 then they might offer Gats the job there and then. Have they ever offered the top job to somebody outside of the Super Rugby championship?

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Seems precipitous to move back when Hansen's position looks assured until 2015 RWC. I imagine he's biding his time and will assess his options after that tournament.

He was offered the Super Rugby assistant job in 2007 but turned it down (he had been coaching Waikato up to then).

Right so that's the assistant role... Before all of this Henry had stints and success with Auckland and Blues in the Super 12. Not sure how you decipher that Gats is not willing to ever coach a S15 franchise from all of this though.

Henry went from being Wales / B& I Lions coach to the Blue's Defence Coach. Not sure Gatland's ego could handle that much of a comedown as he illustrated perfectly in 2007 when he turned down a Super Rugby Assistant job.  If he had taken it back then, he too might have been in poll position to coach the ABs instead of Hansen (don't forget that Gatland had international rugby coaching experience at that stage as head coach with Ireland).

Sin if you take off the anti-Gatland blinkers for a few moments and consider it more logically. Gatland was a successful and seasoned coach already by 2007. The head coach role at the Chiefs would have been his ticket to the top job, coaching the All Blacks. He wasn't wanted for his desired role at the Chiefs so accepted an offer overseas, where he could gain better experience and then return home a much stronger candidate. I don't think it has anything to do with being egotistical.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

Taylorman seemed to be unaware that Wales coached by Gatland have a terrible record against SH teams.

Is there anyone in the NH (bar SCW) that doesn't have a terrible record against SH teams? Hansen and Henry included as it's been put down for you. BTW, your reference to the record versus RC teams is factually incorrect . And seeing as Glasgow put more than 50 points past Munster I guess they're a better team than Australia too.

Ireland has a fairly decent record against all the teams bar NZ (and everyone has a bad record against them).

Glasgow could beat Australia and they wouldn't need as many goes as Wales have had.

They have a good record against Argentina Sin. Against the others it isn't really good, and I think it's less fixtures against the top teams as well.

Sure they could Sin,keep on dreaming.

* Taking into account EOS reign, it isn't a good record against Arg either. With Kidney it's either 2 from 2 or 3 from 3 I can't remember exactly.

I don't think Ireland have lost at home to Australia in the last 10 years - and of course Ireland did beat them in the SH at the world cup. Scotland has had a bit of success down there as well.

With SA I think its something like winning 3 of the last 4. Ireland have lost at home once in the last 6 or 7 years.

Poll position? They don't get a vote.  

As 2011 was a success and Hansen was a part of that set up, I doubt it very much Gatland would've got the job had he stayed in NZ. Now he's got successive 6N wins and a Lions series win to add to his CV. It makes for a compelling argument.

If Hansen wins the next RWC then Gats returning to the Super fold in whatever capacity might be seen as a sign of good faith on his part and a means of appeasing Tew. If there is a RWC fallout, then Gats is positioned as front runner as no current Super coach stands out and overseas coaches don't have the experience or the trophy set of Gatland.

The Saint wrote:If he had to, I think he would, but he'd only be willing to coach the Chiefs. By that time they'd probably still have a good team. But that said if Hansenball goes to balls in 2015 then they might offer Gats the job there and then. Have they ever offered the top job to somebody outside of the Super Rugby championship?

No. And unlike Henry, (and potential other competition for the AB job, Cotter & Schmidt, Gatland has never coached Super Rugby.

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:Aww jeez, Sin brings down another good thread with his anti-Gatland issues.
 

Taylorman seemed to be unaware that Wales coached by Gatland have a terrible record against SH teams.

Is there anyone in the NH (bar SCW) that doesn't have a terrible record against SH teams? Hansen and Henry included as it's been put down for you. BTW, your reference to the record versus RC teams is factually incorrect . And seeing as Glasgow put more than 50 points past Munster I guess they're a better team than Australia too.

Ireland has a fairly decent record against all the teams bar NZ (and everyone has a bad record against them).

Glasgow could beat Australia and they wouldn't need as many goes as Wales have had.

They have a good record against Argentina Sin. Against the others it isn't really good, and I think it's less fixtures against the top teams as well.

Sure they could Sin,keep on dreaming.

* Taking into account EOS reign, it isn't a good record against Arg either. With Kidney it's either 2 from 2 or 3 from 3 I can't remember exactly.

I don't think Ireland have lost at home to Australia in the last 10 years - and of course Ireland did beat them in the SH at the world cup. Scotland has had a bit of success down there as well.

With SA I think its something like winning 3 of the last 4. Ireland have lost at home once in the last 6 or 7 years.

Sin, 2005 is within the last 10 years, you lost to Aus at Lansdowne Road. And during that Autumn tour it was probably the worst Aus team of the 21st century, even an injury ravaged Wales beat them. By the way, you said just records, you didn't state home or away. Taking into account your away record (minus the fact you've been too afraid to travel to RSA) then it's still also a terrible record against the SH. So I don't see why you would slate Gatland over this.

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:If he had to, I think he would, but he'd only be willing to coach the Chiefs. By that time they'd probably still have a good team. But that said if Hansenball goes to balls in 2015 then they might offer Gats the job there and then. Have they ever offered the top job to somebody outside of the Super Rugby championship?

No. And unlike Henry, (and potential other competition for the AB job, Cotter & Schmidt, Gatland has never coached Super Rugby.

It was a question for the knowledgeable Kiwi's sin. Gats has always been in a better position than those two anyway. By 2015 he'll still be in a better position.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Poll position? They don't get a vote.  

As 2011 was a success and Hansen was a part of that set up, I doubt it very much Gatland would've got the job had he stayed in NZ. Now he's got successive 6N wins and a Lions series win to add to his CV. It makes for a compelling argument.

If Hansen wins the next RWC then Gats returning to the Super fold in whatever capacity might be seen as a sign of good faith on his part and a means of appeasing Tew. If there is a RWC fallout, then Gats is positioned as front runner as no current Super coach stands out and overseas coaches don't have the experience or the trophy set of Gatland.

Schmidt's trophy cabinet isn't that poor and Henry or Hansen not winning much with Wales impeeding their promotion in NZ. Schmidt (& Cotter) have coached Super Rugby, something Gatland has never done.

But something he might do in the future. You seem to be closing yourself off from that possibility.

Until 2011 Australia had never lost to NZ in a World Cup match. Things can change. No doubt you will be hoping Schmidt can change Ireland's record against NZ in November.  

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:If he had to, I think he would, but he'd only be willing to coach the Chiefs. By that time they'd probably still have a good team. But that said if Hansenball goes to balls in 2015 then they might offer Gats the job there and then. Have they ever offered the top job to somebody outside of the Super Rugby championship?

No. And unlike Henry, (and potential other competition for the AB job, Cotter & Schmidt, Gatland has never coached Super Rugby.

It was a question for the knowledgeable Kiwi's sin. Gats has always been in a better position than those two anyway. By 2015 he'll still be in a better position.

Look, Gats paid off a few journalists to write stuff that NZ would be interested in him as a coach to get a contract extention with Wales. It worked. Thats all.

He is peed now that the only people lauding for winning a Lions test series against a very poor Australia all live in south wales.  The Kiwis couldn't care less. I doubt if Hansen is worried about the Gatland challenge after how NZ destroyed the Wallabies in the Rugby Championship.

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:If he had to, I think he would, but he'd only be willing to coach the Chiefs. By that time they'd probably still have a good team. But that said if Hansenball goes to balls in 2015 then they might offer Gats the job there and then. Have they ever offered the top job to somebody outside of the Super Rugby championship?

No. And unlike Henry, (and potential other competition for the AB job, Cotter & Schmidt, Gatland has never coached Super Rugby.

It was a question for the knowledgeable Kiwi's sin. Gats has always been in a better position than those two anyway. By 2015 he'll still be in a better position.

Look, Gats paid off a few journalists to write stuff that NZ would be interested in him as a coach to get a contract extention with Wales. It worked. Thats all.

He is peed now that the only people lauding for winning a Lions test series against a very poor Australia all live in south wales.  The Kiwis couldn't care less. I doubt if Hansen is worried about the Gatland challenge after how NZ destroyed the Wallabies in the Rugby Championship.

Ah Sin, talking more BS. A sign of you conceding you're wrong. The Saint wins .

I think his supporters extend a little beyond south Wales sin é.

Kiwis take great interest in building depth. That doesn't just extend to players. Like Kaino, we all want our prodigal sons to come home. Both coaches and players.

It's not a contest Saint. It's all about participation.  

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:But something he might do in the future. You seem to be closing yourself off from that possibility.

Until 2011 Australia had never lost to NZ in a World Cup match. Things can change. No doubt you will be hoping Schmidt can change Ireland's record against NZ in November.  

Not winning anything with Wales didn't impede either Henry or Hansen. In fact Henry had a shocking record with them (and finally losing to Ireland in the 6Ns in 2002 by 54-10).  

Thats why I don't think Schmidt or Cotter have to win anything with Ireland/Scotland to stake a claim (but I do imagine which ever kiwi coach manages to beat NZ in the autumn will be a front runner to replace Hansen.

That's convenient as there's only one candidate! NZ don't play Wales.

So your earlier argument that Gatland hasn't won anything against the big SH 3 is now irrelevant. I concur.  

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think his supporters extend a little beyond south Wales sin é.
 

Not if you look at the media - there is as much about Cotter & Schmidt coaching the ABs as there is about Gatland. Cotter seems to be the highest profile candidate and the only people banging on about the Lions are websites like wales on line, BBC wales etc. (North Wales don't do rugby, so wouldn't be interested).

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So your earlier argument that Gatland hasn't won anything against the big SH 3 is now irrelevant. I concur.  

The Welsh teams were poor back then. The present Welsh team are meant to be world beaters so should be able to beat the odd SH team like Scotland & Ireland can.

And Henry was prepared to be a defence coach back in Super Rugby.

I wonder is the reason that Wales fail against SH opposition down to the fact that he has no super rugby experience?

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Poll position? They don't get a vote.  

As 2011 was a success and Hansen was a part of that set up, I doubt it very much Gatland would've got the job had he stayed in NZ. Now he's got successive 6N wins and a Lions series win to add to his CV. It makes for a compelling argument.

If Hansen wins the next RWC then Gats returning to the Super fold in whatever capacity might be seen as a sign of good faith on his part and a means of appeasing Tew. If there is a RWC fallout, then Gats is positioned as front runner as no current Super coach stands out and overseas coaches don't have the experience or the trophy set of Gatland.

Schmidt's trophy cabinet isn't that poor and Henry or Hansen not winning much with Wales impeeding their promotion in NZ. Schmidt (& Cotter) have coached Super Rugby, something Gatland has never done.

Was he not Chiefs coach?

Well done Sin, back-tracked everything you've written and you try and cop out of it with more BS (Wales are meant to be world beaters). A coach that wins nothing with Ireland or Scotland or a coach that has recently won a Lions series (the first in a while, so not to be sniffed at, unless you're Irish of course). I know which coach I'd choose, I guess a monkey could also make the correct call there too. You couldn't though Sin. Is your IQ less than that of a monkey?

Do you really want to use the media as a guide of what's happening in the world?

The NZ media took a brief dabble in the Lions and Cotter and Schmidt might have made a fleeting appearance on the back of a story about a cat up a tree but they're only interested in what's happening in NZ.

At the moment men like Gats, Cotter and Schmidt are all exiles. They'll all get their brief moment in the sun when they encounter NZ but until then they're an irrelevance. That will change if there's a rugby shake up if we fail at the RWC.

Super rugby didn't seem to do Robbie Deans any favours. At least not against NZ.

No need to get personal Saint. Argumentum ad hominem is not needed with sin é. He'll stick by his opinions but he won't stick the boot in to a poster.

It will all come down to what NZ are looking for at the time of the appointment, which will no doubt be dictated to a certain extent by the shape of the team at that given time.

Were Hansen to be removed now (obviously unlikely), there will no doubt be a number of coaches throwing their hat in the ring.

Looking at all the international coaches at present (including Schmidt and Cotter), Gatland's overall coaching record with Wales and the Lions (and Wasps as club coach) will make him a strong candidate.

If Super XV coaching is an absolute requirement, then clearly that will be a negative in terms of Gatland's candidacy.

As for his record against SH teams, I don't think that would be a particularly significant factor as there are no other candidates that can really claim to have a strong record, and certainly no other candidates that can ally that with as strong a trophy record as Gatland.

However, if Schmidt can get Ireland firing in the 6 Nations, then he'll certainly become a strong candidate, but at the moment he is an international rookie. I'm looking forward to seeing whether he can turn Ireland's fortunes. At Murrayfield last season Ireland were all over us, but just didn't have that cutting edge in the backs to finish off half breaks (plus Paddy Jackson had a total nightmare with the boot). Plenty potential there with Ireland, and plenty pressure on Schmidt.

Gatland has turned Wales into a very successful side when it comes to winning trophies, and his WC semi-final appearance should also not be lightly discounted. Seeing how he and Schmidt (and Cotter) get on will be very interesting!