If Gatland were appointed NZ coach, would he follow in the same vein as Henry and Hansen?

First topic message reminder :

Of the modern era, it's hard to go past Ted as NZ's premier coach. When you look at the top echelon of NZ coaches, it's disturbing how similar their paths have been. Wales has often been used as a stepping stone to the NZ job and I wonder if that's the case because Wales tries to adopt a similar running game.

I remember many Welsh posters warning that NZ would go to the dogs with Hansen in charge. They weren't overly happy with Henry either as The Great Redeemer quickly turned into the Turd of Heaven. Now I read quite a bit that Gatland would be received with rioting on the streets if he were appointed NZ coach. I'm not so sure.

I for one was happy when Ted was given a second chance. People learn from their mistakes and throughout Henry's career you could see an evolution in the way he taught rugby most notably with how he handled the players. He moved away from the gruff headmaster role and he put on a different hat to the rest of the players. Hansen evidently took note of this as he has nurtured that team environment built under Henry and continued it. He's introduced a host of young players and told the experienced players what he wants from them. Dialogue has been kept open and new players appear to have fitted in seamlessly.

Whatever the result of the 2015 RWC Gatland won't appear in the running until well after that. The Lions series win and a Grand Slam followed up by an impressive fightback to win the tournament as well as his club successes and his brief stint with Ireland all add icing to the CV cake. It remains to be seen whether he'll come back to coach a Super 15 side. Henry and Hammett have lost their way so there is certainly an opening if he's prepared to mend bridges with Tew.

Gatlandball as it became known on the Lions tour would be refined in NZ. At its heart, it's very much the set piece game of Waikato with added frills. A solid set piece is mandatory in test rugby. For a lot of the late 90s and early 00s we moved away from that and thought we could run the ball from anywhere. You can't do that and teams like Samoa have prospered in recent times realising that the set piece is king and the foundation on which you build your team. But what you do with that ball much depends on the personnel you have at your disposal. Nonu's time is coming to an end and NZ teams might see their robust centre at 13 not 12 in the future. But Gatland knows that the real attacking weapon of NZ is their counter attack. That's when the defence is not properly set and that's where the gaps appear. That's where our passing game and the pace and breadth at which we can do it come to the fore. That's where the refinements will be made and that's where Gatland would not want to make any changes.

The big question for me with Gatland is not the tactics he would employ. There I think we would be fine. It's his team management and the way he handles the players. Henry and Hansen have built a strong team unit. The players saw Hansen as a continuity of the Henry regime. Would they see Gatland as the same and would Gatland work hard to continue that team environment or would he like to impose his way of seeing things? Perhaps coaching a Super team first would smooth that transition or perhaps I'm making too much of his media reputation.

What do you other fullas think?

Agreed FES. I'd say as it stands those two stand the best chance of success. Todd Blackadder has Super experience but I shudder at the thought of him in the NZ job much like in his AB days as a player.

Rennie is the NZ front runner in terms of coaches within the NZ set up currently. He has age group and back to back Super titles. Wouldn't want to see him go overseas to improve his chances. He's fine where he is.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Poll position? They don't get a vote.  

As 2011 was a success and Hansen was a part of that set up, I doubt it very much Gatland would've got the job had he stayed in NZ. Now he's got successive 6N wins and a Lions series win to add to his CV. It makes for a compelling argument.

If Hansen wins the next RWC then Gats returning to the Super fold in whatever capacity might be seen as a sign of good faith on his part and a means of appeasing Tew. If there is a RWC fallout, then Gats is positioned as front runner as no current Super coach stands out and overseas coaches don't have the experience or the trophy set of Gatland.

Schmidt's trophy cabinet isn't that poor and Henry or Hansen not winning much with Wales impeeding their promotion in NZ. Schmidt (& Cotter) have coached Super Rugby, something Gatland has never done.

Was he not Chiefs coach?

No. Waikato in ITM Cup. The rest of his coaching career has been spent with Themes Valley, Galwegians, Connacht, Ireland, Wasps, Waikato, Wales B&I Lions.

No Super Rugby experience.

I always think it's helpful to have a continuity candidate from within the set-up. I actually wasn't convinced Hansen would be a success following Henry, but he's made an excellent start.

You always want a number of candidates from which to choose from, and whether NZ want Gatland ultimately, I'm sure they will be pretty pleased to have him as an option should he be interested when the time comes. He won plenty and has bags of experience. Having Schmidt and Cotter taking up new international roles only expands the possibilities. I wouldn't rule out a combination of the above ultimately being involved, in much the same way as NZ combined Henry, Smith and Hansen.

to be honest I don't think the NZ public would stand for it... it would be fine whilst they are winning but they would tear into him the minute they started to lose the odd game.

Gatland has lost his fair share of matches both against inferior squads in Europe/outside the 3N and constantly vs. the 3N when he should have taken scalps.

This and the limited but succesful play would probably not warm the average kiwi to giving him the benefit of doubt when trouble brews.... stay long enough in the job and it always does (see Henry, Woodward, Jones, White etc etc).

Graham Henry kept his job in 07 remarkably... probably due to his team and its style being very successful and playing an entertaining mix of brutal upfront and innovative back play.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Agreed FES. I'd say as it stands those two stand the best chance of success. Todd Blackadder has Super experience but I shudder at the thought of him in the NZ job much like in his AB days as a player.

Rennie is the NZ front runner in terms of coaches within the NZ set up currently. He has age group and back to back Super titles. Wouldn't want to see him go overseas to improve his chances. He's fine where he is.

I came across an interview with Cotter where he said he was told that international coaching experience is now necessary to be the All Blacks head coach.

Said he was asked at interview if he would take an assistant coaching position.

After the RWC we will know who is in line. If NZ have a bad RWC and let hansen go they will either take the best S15 coach or top placed NZ coach of NH teams

More to the point, isn't McEwenkenziepants turning out to be a crock of expendable effluent? Talk about learning international rugby on the job. Looks like the step from super rugby winner to international saviour is more tricky than it looked...

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Gatland would be a strong candidate for NZ, given his international experience, but NZ tend to prefer more "home grown" options, so I suspect when Hansen steps down it'll be a Super XV coach appointed.

I guess it depends on whether Hansen is successful or not. If he leaves NZ with the team in a position of strength, as Henry did, then a continuity candidate makes sense. If by the next World Cup NZ have slipped, and Scotland have stolen number 1 slot, then NZ may shake things up and go with something different. Gatland would probably represent the "shake things up option".

Whatever your view of Gatland, you cannot deny the success he's had with Wasps and Wales (and now the Lions). You can get lucky once, but to sustain success with different teams over such a prolonged period is quite an achievement. He is rightly regarded as one of the top coaches in the NH.

Excellent comments.

I'm still cagey about him but agree, the track record is pretty good.
Its also true that NHers also thought neither Henry nor Hansen at the end of their tenures and both are now up there with the greatest %'s of all time, hansen now on 95% odd non defeats. If anything the reverse is true. Having a greater player base gives you more options and kiwis 'get' kiwis. Gats wouldnt last long with an autocratic Mitchell type style ans would be out on his ear if he dropped below the current standards.

How good is Gatland's track record against Rugby Championship Teams - thats the ABs bread and butter. Teams that they beat regularly have all managed wins against SH teams. Gatland has one win at home to Australia in 6 years of coaching Wales. Even Munster (shorn of their internationals) have beaten Australia in this period.

Ah sin...troller of all trolls...

ok, reason Gatland has a good record is because he has won two of the premier events in World rugby- a Grand slam and a Lions tour.Hes also won a local ITM, and is a former All Black, so is familiar with its standards.

Who coaching today has done that.?

In terms of beating SH sides I thought that Oz was one of those.

I didnt say his record was great, just pretty good. As an international coach name 5 who have had better success internationally over the past 5 years Sin.

The reason he hasnt had a lot of success over SH sides is generally because of the players he gets to choose from. Take Ireland. Not in your generation Sin, nor any of your forefathers, nor any of your descendants from this day forward, will ever witness an Irish win over the AB's. THAT is the calibre of player Gatland has had to work with- so its obvious coaching is not the issue there- many, many have tried before Gats...The Irish wins over the AB's is strictly limited to Lions tours baabaas or midweek club games of the previous millenium- and mostly where they get to have the Welsh help them to win, provided they get selected, albeit, the number of wins again a distant memory.

The Welsh are in the same boat, but at least they had a 3-1 lead over the ABs for 60 odd years till it all fell apart...

*Comments of course meant for Sins consumption only, such is his obviously struggle with Gatland, the hugely successful coach of the recent Lions tour.
morning all...

It's all a bit academic given Rennie is the current front runner should the current trio step down.

GloriousEmpire wrote:More to the point, isn't McEwenkenziepants turning out to be a crock of expendable effluent? Talk about learning international rugby on the job. Looks like the step from super rugby winner to international saviour is more tricky than it looked...

Good point, and Deans didn't set the world on fire with Australia either. Neither did Henry with Wales.

Steep old learning curve this international rugby business.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Neither did Henry with Wales.

He must have done someting, cos theyve been picking our coaches ever since...mind you...so is everyone else...
I'd have Rennie as long as it came with Smith, THE best analyst of the game in my opinion. I'd also add JK because of his infectious enthusiasm, energy and full on life experience that he would bring to the squad. Class personified and a great AB to boot.

Taylorman wrote:The reason he hasnt had a lot of success over SH sides is generally because of the players he gets to choose from. Take Ireland. Not in your generation Sin, nor any of your forefathers, nor any of your descendants from this day forward, will ever witness an Irish win over the AB's. THAT is the calibre of player Gatland has had to work with- so its obvious coaching is not the issue there- many, many have tried before Gats...The Irish wins over the AB's is strictly limited to Lions tours baabaas or midweek club games of the previous millenium- and mostly where they get to have the Welsh help them to win, provided they get selected, albeit, the number of wins again a distant memory.

The Welsh are in the same boat, but at least they had a 3-1 lead over the ABs for 60 odd years till it all fell apart...

*Comments of course meant for Sins consumption only, such is his obviously struggle with Gatland, the hugely successful coach of the recent Lions tour.
morning all...

em, plenty of evidence of an Irish team nilling the All Blacks in 1978 - only game they lost on their NH Tour. I also think that Ireland A have beaten the Maoris in the Churchill Cup. The Welsh have had nothing to do with that.

As poor and all as Ireland is, we have still managed to beat SA & Australia a few times in the last 10 years unlike poor Gats with Wales.

bc I could see a Waikato triumvirate of Gatland, Rennie and Smith as a great coaching set up to replace the current trio. That may be wishful thinking but I think they'd make a formidable unit.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:More to the point, isn't McEwenkenziepants turning out to be a crock of expendable effluent? Talk about learning international rugby on the job. Looks like the step from super rugby winner to international saviour is more tricky than it looked...

Good point, and Deans didn't set the world on fire with Australia either. Neither did Henry with Wales.

Steep old learning curve this international rugby business.

Deans won a Tri-Nations with Australia and beat Wales about 8 times.

Sure - there are no guarantees about whether they can make the step up or not from club to international level. I wonder would the fact that Gatland has had no experience coaching day to day against SH club teams (Aus & SA as in Super Rugby) be the reason why his record is so poor with Wales against SH teams?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:bc I could see a Waikato triumvirate of Gatland, Rennie and Smith as a great coaching set up to replace the current trio. That may be wishful thinking but I think they'd make a formidable unit.

So Gatty would be the forwards coach then in your dream team?  

Could be sin.  

Kia, I think you have set out the background to this prospect very well in the main article.

I very much think Gatland would continue the current ethics and protocals of Henry/Hansen, as you so accurately describe the Waikato style is to me what he has been doing with Wales over the last couple of years.however Gatlands future always come back to one man...Dave Rennie.

What Rennie (with a bit of help from Wayne Smith) has been able to achieve with Waikato by  having players with the ability to attack wide once the momentum has been established and defend against all odds is very much proven. Rennie also has been able to mould a somewhat mottly crew into a very formidable team, whether Gatty can do that in a New Zealand setting would have to be proven, but surely he has gone down this road with Wales already, especially in the last couple of years.

 Hansen and Henry are very much their "own man", Gatty is from the same mould, the thing going for him is that New Zealand players know that structure, and will not have to be educated. They know that Gatland will be unconditional in the "my way or the highway" ethos.

 Whenever Ive watched Wales play recently,and although they dont always win, no one could ever question the welsh players committment of playing not only for their country but also for their coach, that tells me that a lot is going on behind the scenes inside the Welsh camp and I attribute a lot of that to Gatland and his coaching staff.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

 Whenever Ive watched Wales play recently,and although they dont always win, no one could ever question the welsh players committment of playing not only for their country but also for their coach, that tells me that a lot is going on behind the scenes inside the Welsh camp and I attribute a lot of that to Gatland and his coaching staff.

I think it's always been this way since Gats came in. It's sad that we don't have someone as smart running the WRU, because we'd be in a much stronger position and have spread our resources further. Also there was a severe drop-off in form when Gats was out and the other coaches were running the show. Some games weren't so bad but, when we get to the autumn it was total dross. Nobody looked remotely interested in playing. So it's still miraculous to me how they managed to finally turn it around in the 6 Nations. Could the drop-off in form be attributed to Gats absence? I think this autumn could confirm that if we play well.

Rennie will get it at the moment because the policy is to appoint a super 15 coach. He's performing well and the NZRU wants to entice asmuch coaching talent as possible to stay in the country. The others are coaching coaching foreign national or club sides. It makes any comparison even more problematic.

When did that policy come in bc- out last two coaches both last coached Wales except for Henry's little 2003 jaunt assisting with the Blues. Hansens not coached super has he?

People keep talking about trends or rules based on little evidence or even contrary to the evidence. The NZRFU will consider all sorts of things when it comes to choosing a coach and things like international experience will be part of that mix. For example coaching Wales I am sure is coincidental rather than a prerequisite to being an AB coach.

When Henry went to Wales. When he came back he was involved in the Blues. Smith and Hansen got in on his coat tales. They've stated fairly regularly they want to select a local coach. Obviously if they believe the alternatives are far superior they might change their mind. There's a lot of water to go under the bridge between now and 2016.

Gatland would do very well coaching NZ. They have the big skillfull backs players that he likes and the type of pack that he needs to get plenty of possession.

To be honest, with the talent involved in the AB's setup Martin Johnson could probably coach them to a RWC victory.

yappysnap wrote:To be honest, with the talent involved in the AB's setup Martin Johnson could probably coach them to a RWC victory.

Now now, that was just a silly thing to say

yappysnap wrote:Gatland would do very well coaching NZ. They have the big skillfull backs players that he likes and the type of pack that he needs to get plenty of possession.

To be honest, with the talent involved in the AB's setup Martin Johnson could probably coach them to a RWC victory.

In my opinion he's coaching a modified version of the 1980's/90's Waikato game he was involved in as a player. he'd have to modify a bit to suit the personnel in NZ. But it's not unfamiliar to kiwis, esp given he coached the Waikato in the recent past.

Why would the ABs select him over some of the other options. Is he a better coach than Rennie, Blackadder, Schmidt or Cotter (some of the names which will be in the mix by the time the position will be available).

Can't see the ABs wanting a coach who has a big mouth and always putting his foot in it.

Gatland knows this - and probably why he decided to start mainly a Welsh team in the last Lions Test - didn't want any fallout like what happened to Henry.

The Welsh will love him for dropping BOD.

the force runs deep with this one...we're all starting to love him for dropping BOD Sin, best side show the games had for ages. 

Give it a rest Sin e.

Gatland is an extremely successful coach. He has his flaws as all coaches do, and were you recruiting the next head coach of the ABs you'd no doubt be choosing from a number of excellent candidates, and Gatland would undoubtedly be on that shortlist given his record in a number of positions.

One thing I'm fairly confident of is that, when the time comes, the ABs and everyone else living outside of Dublin won't give a toss that in completing a successful series win over Australia with the Lions, he only played BOD for two Tests rather than three.

yappysnap wrote:Gatland would do very well coaching NZ. They have the big skillfull backs players that he likes and the type of pack that he needs to get plenty of possession.

To be honest, with the talent involved in the AB's setup Martin Johnson could probably coach them to a RWC victory.

I guess by AB set up you mean the players but I think too often the my granny could coach the NZ team and they'd win line, although in jest, overlooks the fact that NZ not only has great players to choose from but also great coaches. Our coaches have made high profile errors at various times but I can't remember any duff ones, though I'd certainly choose some over others.

My point is though it's not just the players in which we have great depth. Hansen is doing a great job but there are other coaches like Rennie or Gatland who would do the job if required. Add in emerging ones like Cotter and Schmidt and the game is in good hands. I'd be seriously worried if we all had were Blackadder, Hammet and Joseph in contention. One should never understate the role of the coaches in the NZ set up.

Sin é wrote:Why would the ABs select him over some of the other options. Is he a better coach than Rennie, Blackadder, Schmidt or Cotter (some of the names which will be in the mix by the time the position will be available).

Can't see the ABs wanting a coach who has a big mouth and always putting his foot in it.

Gatland knows this - and probably why he decided to start mainly a Welsh team in the last Lions Test - didn't want any fallout like what happened to Henry.

The Welsh will love him for dropping BOD.

Give it a rest now eh.

To be fair to Gatland he has a very very good c.v, and has won nearly everything his teams have been involved in (bar the RWC). However I do wonder if he is the sort of bloke that just lads on his feet (especially when fallin of ladders), and gets to places when the right group of people are there.

I don't think he is as good as his track record makes out, but I must be honest I would love to see him in NZ, and see what he could do with their side. Because if he is as good as he is made out to be, then the All Blacks should be exceptionally frightening with him at the helm.

Nor were Henry and Hansen as good as their track record made out. But if they had only coached Wales, who would you have had SS?

It's safe to assume he'd have capable men around him for the NZ job with a wider talent pool. If you had Gatland coaching the forwards, Rennie coaching defence and Wayne Smith coaching attack, I think that'd be a frightening triumvirate. Don't think it'd happen (notably with Smith but you could replace him with Kirwan) but it's just an example of the support he might have.

kiakahaaotearoa - To be honest I'm not sure who I would have, and Gatland may be the best option (like you said plenty of good coaches there for him to lean on), but he seems to need 'yes men' around him, and not too sure how many of them you lot have.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:To be fair to Gatland he has a very very good c.v, and has won nearly everything his teams have been involved in (bar the RWC).  However I do wonder if he is the sort of bloke that just lads on his feet (especially when fallin of ladders), and gets to places when the right group of people are there.

I don't think he is as good as his track record makes out, but I must be honest I would love to see him in NZ, and see what he could do with their side.  Because if he is as good as he is made out to be, then the All Blacks should be exceptionally frightening with him at the helm.

I'm not sure how good a reference Gatland would get from the IRFU in his last international job. I believe they found him very difficult to deal with (in that he had to be forced to hire staff like a backs/attack coach and a defence coach).

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Nor were Henry and Hansen as good as their track record made out. But if they had only coached Wales, who would you have had SS?

It's safe to assume he'd have capable men around him for the NZ job with a wider talent pool. If you had Gatland coaching the forwards, Rennie coaching defence and Wayne Smith coaching attack, I think that'd be a frightening triumvirate. Don't think it'd happen (notably with Smith but you could replace him with Kirwan) but it's just an example of the support he might have.

And would this coaching triumvirate work well together? Rennie & Smith are very successful working together already - what would Gatland bring to the table?

He would probably bring ten times more to the table than Schmidt and Cotter. Guys you claim are candidates ahead of the Great Gats. They aren't calling him the Great Gats for no reason Sin.

The Saint wrote:He would probably bring ten times more to the table than Schmidt and Cotter. Guys you claim are candidates ahead of the Great Gats. They aren't calling him the Great Gats for no reason Sin.

I don't think I claimed that   

From my post:

Is he a better coach than Rennie, Blackadder, Schmidt or Cotter (some of the names which will be in the mix by the time the position will be available).

I'd like to know how anyone would think that Rennie or Smith would want to be Gatland's assistants - particularly if they are also in the mix for head coach.

It's something I'm sure Gatland has thought about. He won't be allowed to bring in outsiders like Sean Edwards for example. He'll have to pick Kiwis. Rennie's Waikato connection might form a common ground. Much will depend on whether Gats comes back to coach a NZ Super franchise and who he has in his set up. Hansen no doubt had head coach ambitions but went for assistant coach with Henry so much depends on the candidacy and who is involved in his set up. Rennie at the moment has the advantage of already being involved in that set up.

Gatland was exactly what Wales needed after the people champion, Jenkins. They were running about like headless chickens; every now and then they ran in the same direction and did something great. Gatland took them by the scruff and gave then a shake and got them going in the same direction. Not as fast as they were before but co-ordinated.

He did something similar with Ireland in the early days didn't he? And Wasps? But is he the right guy for New Zealand? Not sure. They seem pretty co-ordinated most the time and I'm not sure what else he brings.

HammerofThunor wrote:Gatland was exactly what Wales needed after the people champion, Jenkins. They were running about like headless chickens; every now and then they ran in the same direction and did something great. Gatland took them by the scruff and gave then a shake and got them going in the same direction. Not as fast as they were before but co-ordinated.

He did something similar with Ireland in the early days didn't he? And Wasps? But is he the right guy for New Zealand? Not sure. They seem pretty co-ordinated most the time and I'm not sure what else he brings.

No, he didn't. He was a very poor coach for Ireland. His record was very poor until a Backs Coach was forced on him (EOS). Thats when Ireland started winning games.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gatland was exactly what Wales needed after the people champion, Jenkins. They were running about like headless chickens; every now and then they ran in the same direction and did something great. Gatland took them by the scruff and gave then a shake and got them going in the same direction. Not as fast as they were before but co-ordinated.

He did something similar with Ireland in the early days didn't he? And Wasps? But is he the right guy for New Zealand? Not sure. They seem pretty co-ordinated most the time and I'm not sure what else he brings.

No, he didn't. He was a very poor coach for Ireland. His record was very poor until a Backs Coach was forced on him (EOS). Thats when Ireland started winning games.

 

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gatland was exactly what Wales needed after the people champion, Jenkins. They were running about like headless chickens; every now and then they ran in the same direction and did something great. Gatland took them by the scruff and gave then a shake and got them going in the same direction. Not as fast as they were before but co-ordinated.

He did something similar with Ireland in the early days didn't he? And Wasps? But is he the right guy for New Zealand? Not sure. They seem pretty co-ordinated most the time and I'm not sure what else he brings.

No, he didn't. He was a very poor coach for Ireland. His record was very poor until a Backs Coach was forced on him (EOS). Thats when Ireland started winning games.

So what did Ireland's record look like prior to Gats taking over?

Wikipedia states that Gatland took over after Brian Ashton, under whom Ireland had endured some miserable times (winning no more than one 5Ns game per year for several years). This seems to support what Hammer said, that Gatland did straighten Ireland out and picked them up a notch. Indeed he was heavily involved in setting the foundations to the team that hit new heights under EOS and Kidney.

That's not mentioning Ireland's only win in Paris in living memory... under Gatland  

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gatland was exactly what Wales needed after the people champion, Jenkins. They were running about like headless chickens; every now and then they ran in the same direction and did something great. Gatland took them by the scruff and gave then a shake and got them going in the same direction. Not as fast as they were before but co-ordinated.

He did something similar with Ireland in the early days didn't he? And Wasps? But is he the right guy for New Zealand? Not sure. They seem pretty co-ordinated most the time and I'm not sure what else he brings.

No, he didn't. He was a very poor coach for Ireland. His record was very poor until a Backs Coach was forced on him (EOS). Thats when Ireland started winning games.

He did struggle with Ireland, but he did inherit a bit of a mess from Brian Ashton (was it not three consecutive wooden spoons prior to Gatland taking over) and the fortunes of the Irish side picked up when the IRFU sorted out the provinces as they turned professional, which I think had as much to do with Ireland turning the tide as anything else.

Although by his now very high standards of success the period with Ireland consitutes a blip on his record, what is without question is that he left Ireland in a far better state that he found them.

Gatland's record with Ireland up to the appointment of EOS as backs coach:
13 losses, 6 wins (including two wins against Romania). Other wins were USA 1, Wales 1, 1 Italy & 1 Argentina. With Gatland as head coach, Ireland also lost on its way to the '99 world cup to a very young Munster side coached by Declan Kidney.

EOS was appointed backs coach (an appointment forced on Gatland) after the 1999 World Cup. Ireland, with EOS as backs coach had its first win in Paris (with a BOD hattrick the following 6Ns), having beaten Scotland as well.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gatland was exactly what Wales needed after the people champion, Jenkins. They were running about like headless chickens; every now and then they ran in the same direction and did something great. Gatland took them by the scruff and gave then a shake and got them going in the same direction. Not as fast as they were before but co-ordinated.

He did something similar with Ireland in the early days didn't he? And Wasps? But is he the right guy for New Zealand? Not sure. They seem pretty co-ordinated most the time and I'm not sure what else he brings.

No, he didn't. He was a very poor coach for Ireland. His record was very poor until a Backs Coach was forced on him (EOS). Thats when Ireland started winning games.

He did struggle with Ireland, but he did inherit a bit of a mess from Brian Ashton (was it not three consecutive wooden spoons prior to Gatland taking over) and the fortunes of the Irish side picked up when the IRFU sorted out the provinces as they turned professional, which I think had as much to do with Ireland turning the tide as anything else.

Although by his now very high standards of success the period with Ireland consitutes a blip on his record, what is without question is that he left Ireland in a far better state that he found them.

Brian Ashton was only with Ireland for a year, so all the wooden spoons were not down to him. Ashton was treated badly, by the way. The turning point was the IRFU bringing home the English based players like Mal O'Kelly, D Humphreys etc. and then of course Munster were developing a very strong team around then (David Wallace, Peter Stringer, John Hayes, Ronan O'Gara, Shane Horgan & Simon Easterby) all made their debut for Ireland in the 2000 6Ns). Munster were to go on and make the final of the HCup in 2000.

Hansen was vehemently attacked on these boards by many in the same position before taking up the AB position despite assurances that he'd learned a lot since his days in Europe. Well so far they have been proved completely and utterly long. Not only has Hansen taken over and continued the success at an even higher winning rate than previously, he's managed to bring in a truckload of new players, maintain sabbaticals of key players and continue to look to improvement and the future.

This is why Gats needs to be in sxv or at least on the AB panel before taking up the lead. AB rugby has moved on since his days here and he'll have handled nothing like it in the NH recently.

One things for sure, NH opinion on our coaches sure aint a useful guideline. Een the successful one gets abused. Gatland has endured more abuse than Deans from that series...thats hilarious...go figure...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Gatland would do very well coaching NZ. They have the big skillfull backs players that he likes and the type of pack that he needs to get plenty of possession.

To be honest, with the talent involved in the AB's setup Martin Johnson could probably coach them to a RWC victory.

I guess by AB set up you mean the players but I think too often the my granny could coach the NZ team and they'd win line, although in jest, overlooks the fact that NZ not only has great players to choose from but also great coaches. Our coaches have made high profile errors at various times but I can't remember any duff ones, though I'd certainly choose some over others.

My point is though it's not just the players in which we have great depth. Hansen is doing a great job but there are other coaches like Rennie or Gatland who would do the job if required. Add in emerging ones like Cotter and Schmidt and the game is in good hands. I'd be seriously worried if we all had were Blackadder, Hammet and Joseph in contention. One should never understate the role of the coaches in the NZ set up.

Although it was in jest I actually meant everything, coaching from age grade right through to Super Rugby all seems set up to be the very best that it can be for the National side. With this I see no reason not to assume that the back room staff and the mechanics of the AB's are such that any coach could come in and get 100% support without the BS and politics that plagues other unions.

Yappy - the politics is just as good (or bad) in NZ rugby as it is anywhere else. For example, despite being the most successful ITM coach ever (4 in a row with Canterbury), Rob Penney was continually overlooked for Super Rugby jobs. Apparently he got stuck in the cross-fire between Steve Tew (NZRU CEO) and Robbie Deans and that is why he is now plying his trade with Munster.

I think may be some people are looking at NZ upside down a bit.

You might argue that coaching has a huge amount to do with how well the ABs and NZ teams at all levels play. So we do well because of our coaches and not because of our players. Look at the Chiefs under Rennie and Smith - a revelation and story of instant and now repeated success. Look at the Crusaders under Blackadder - 4 years of not winning.

I would say our coaches are in more demand around the world than our players.

We know how hard it is to coach the ABs to a world cup win. Most have failed and they have been generally recognised as alright coaches.

Very good point Ngan...to just state that 'anyone' can coach the AB's is certainly a fallacy. The Chiefs is an excellent example. How much of a coincidence that while Wayne Smith was with the AB's the Chiefs were typically the 3,4,5 NZ side for years, NEVER dominating in their entire history.

Enter Smith and Rennie and lo and behold- two dominant years of the entire sxv- not just in NZ but across the entire comp. Its completely correct to say that without Rennie and Smith there is no way on earth the Chiefs would be back to back winners.

Also agree with Blackadder- Crusaders have had the players but have not had the winning edge when it mattered MOST of all. They're famed for their late runs and they still do that but nowadays they fall at the last hurdle. That suggests coaching to me. Not managing the most talented team in the country to the crucial knockout wins.

I believe JK and Henry will do the same with Auckland once they get a foot in the door. JK is making a genuine effort to uphold the very high standards that sides in his day attained and I'll think will get there eventually.