Hogg at 10 for Scotland

by bsando Sun 01 Sep 2013, 12:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

Looking ahead to the new season I am beginning to think this could be a really good idea, despite the fact I was marginally against this idea when it was mentioned in June.

My main reason for thinking this could be a good decision is due to Murchie's summer performance. I thought he played very well against SA and he could be a valuable player for Scotland at fullback. Hogg is such a talent that he needs to be involved in the Scotland setup one way or another. If he always plays fullback, Murchie could go to waste, as could Tonks.

Luckily, both Hogg and Murchie represent Glasgow. Therefore, if Townsend were to occasionally play Hogg at 10 this season, Murchie would get more game time at fullback. This would be great as it would bring him on more as a player. If Murchie were to be injured, Maitland could switch to fullback and allow Seymour to get more game time on the right wing. Having Hogg at flyhalf for Glasgow could also be beneficial for Weir and Jackson's game as there'll be new competition.

Hogg is a talented player, who I think could be a tremendous flyhalf. As there are now four good fullback options for Scotland, I think the risk is worth taking. I also think Murchie would be better suited at fullback for Cotter's style of coaching.

Thoughts?

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 04 Sep 2013, 5:29 pm

To me Lamont and this Hogg proposal are the same thing. They are not being proposed at centre or flyhalf respectively because they are seen to be the best in that position. They are being proposed because it's deemed there isn't anybody else who can do it better. But all you're doing is cutting your man's career short in his chosen and preferred position and fitting him into a jigsaw puzzle where he shouldn't be at that chosen time.

Result. You're missing a piece that you've already put in the puzzle and you're trying to convince yourself that he can perfectly go elsewhere and nobody will notice the difference. I can do a sudoku just by randomly writing in the numbers from 1 to 9 and making sure they match up. But they don't actually go there. But who's going to know? Who's really bothered?

Ok medication time...

by **George Carlin** Wed 04 Sep 2013, 5:56 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:When Lamont was at the Scarlets I don't think he ever gave a poor performance in the centre (and we have had some pretty decent centres over the last five or six seasons). I personally would prefer to see him playing in the centre now (as he is getting older) than on the wing, as he is pretty aggressive in defence still but IMO he is starting to look a little too warn to be on the wing against fresh young pups

This is also the impression I got from other Scarlets fans I know, all of whom didn't want him to go. He wouldn't have been a fan favourite if he couldn't play a bit.Schlong is a real anomaly, really - part of me rolls my eyes when I see him on the team sheet but frequently afterwards I have to admit he's'been one of the best guys on the park.

by flyhalffactory Wed 04 Sep 2013, 6:31 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Can we have video evidence of Sean Lamont's prowess at centre please fly half? Personally I'm not convinced but have yet to resort to insults on twitter.
I've personally always preferred Lamont on the wing, doesn't have the ball skills for me at centre, but Scotland have used him effective at centre before. In fact I think he was named at 12 in the 6 Nations team of the year at one stage, principally before we had Parks at 10 and used Lamont as a battering ram.

He carries the ball well, and is a strong tackler. He can get caught out in the midfield looking for the glory tackle (rather than the effective one), and I keep coming back to the main issue, which is his lack of distribution skills. Not much fun playing on the wing outside Sean Lamont.

I'd say he's been a mixed bag at centre. That's he's sometimes been our best back on the pitch when playing at centre isn't the ringing endorsement I wish it were.

kiakahaaotearoa
I am all video'd out...... Love it brother!! Yahoo

But to qualify my view of Schlong, in addition to what the webslinger says below (he actually had some damn good games at 13 for The Scarlets), he had a cracking game 6Ns 2010 when we wuz robbed 31-24 against Wales 2010 facing off against Hook (13) & Roberts (12) he almost marked both of them off the park , and in the 6Ns 2011 Scotland 18-21 Ireland he played left/right with De Luca and the then scorching BOD/D'Arcy combo was put firmly in their pockets, he also had some good performances during the 2011 WC particularly the 34-24 win over Romania.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/mar/23/six-nations-your-team-of-tournament, I am sure he was included at 12 in the official 6Ns team of the tournament in another year as well

I think he is somewhere in between a Morrison and a Scott, defensively structured he punches above his considerable weight, obviously fast but his big weakness is his poor awareness when in full flight, tunnel vision is an understatement hence his legendary poor distribution. I think the time he had with the awesome Regan King down at the Scarlets benefitted him more than any international coach and shame he didn't have one more season with the New Zealander. He is the type of player who us Scots love to pull apart yet his skills and performance are only missed when he is not playing (a bit like Stephen Jones and Wales), and it wouldn't surprise me if Gregor starts him at 13 against Cardiff on Friday

scarletspiderman wrote:When Lamont was at the Scarlets I don't think he ever gave a poor performance in the centre (and we have had some pretty decent centres over the last five or six seasons). I personally would prefer to see him playing in the centre now (as he is getting older) than on the wing, as he is pretty aggressive in defence still but IMO he is starting to look a little too warn to be on the wing against fresh young pups

by reallybored Thu 05 Sep 2013, 12:02 am

Lamont is a blunt instrument but he can be very effective when used properly. Hasn't got the greatest skills but always gives 100%, defends well and can be handful going forward.

I don't care about the ridicule this will bring, I am very excited about Bennett this season.

Was impressed with his defence last season using his pace well to close down space and his try rate was pretty impressive considering how many times he played. Runs good angles when it counts and we've seen flashes of his ability to scythe through a defence, I really expect him to thrive this season in the environment at Glasgow.

Really rate Dunbar and hopefully Townsend will give the pair a chance to settle early in the season, they make for a very exciting attacking partnership. Would be great for Johnson to have a real selection dilemma in the centres come November:

12 - Scott
13 - Dunbar

12 - Scott
13 - Bennett

12 - Dunbar
13 - Bennett

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 05 Sep 2013, 8:46 am

reallybored wrote:Lamont is a blunt instrument but he can be very effective when used properly. Hasn't got the greatest skills but always gives 100%, defends well and can be handful going forward.

I don't care about the ridicule this will bring, I am very excited about Bennett this season.

Was impressed with his defence last season using his pace well to close down space and his try rate was pretty impressive considering how many times he played. Runs good angles when it counts and we've seen flashes of his ability to scythe through a defence, I really expect him to thrive this season in the environment at Glasgow.

Really rate Dunbar and hopefully Townsend will give the pair a chance to settle early in the season, they make for a very exciting attacking partnership. Would be great for Johnson to have a real selection dilemma in the centres come November:

12 - Scott
13 - Dunbar

12 - Scott
13 - Bennett

12 - Dunbar
13 - Bennett

No ridicule whatsoever from those in the know, rb, only admiration clap

by tigertattie Thu 05 Sep 2013, 9:16 am

Lamont - What he lacks in ball skills he makes up for with commitment

No other back puts in the effort Lamont does

by funnyExiledScot Thu 05 Sep 2013, 9:38 am

I am quite excited about seeing more of Bennett this season as well. I just wasn't particularly excited about him playing for Scotland 2 years ago before he had played professional rugby......

The choice for Glasgow between Bennett and Lamont at 13 is certainly a stark one. I'm not sure there are two more different centres!

by tigertattie Thu 05 Sep 2013, 10:44 am

Maybe Lamont can give Bennett "effort" classes?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 05 Sep 2013, 11:09 am

Bennett lacks effort? Headscratch

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 05 Sep 2013, 11:12 am

tigertattie wrote:Maybe Lamont can give Bennett "effort" classes?

"Now, my lad, you get to hit he as hard as you can, and if I don't think you tried hard enough I'm gonna hit you back".

Could work.

by flyhalffactory Thu 05 Sep 2013, 4:38 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Mr G played Hogg at 10 against the Brumbies (after good displays at full-back and a good run-out at stand-off and comfortable win over the New South Wales-Queensland Combined Country XV) always going to be the toughest challenge other than the Tests. Even worse he had a backline of ageing and inexperienced players hastily flown out to Australia. Unsurprisingly, the Lions suffered their first tour loss and Hogg’s hopes of a Test bench spot evaporated.

Hogg commented after the tour

"When you look at it, five of the seven players in the back line were playing their first game. Playing ten is tough enough, but to have guys who weren’t sure of the moves made things even tougher. Shane Williams got there the day before the game, and Billy Twelvetrees, Christian Wade and Brad Barritt were there three days before the game"

Now all of a sudden we are thinking he just can't cut it at 10...... in my mind its just not the case. I believe he could seamlessly move into the role as easily as he has played 15 in his first full season.
On the requirement for a fly half to have serious pace, I've already addressed the point earlier on this thread. It's a nice to have, but the ability to control the game, distribute and kick are far far more important. Serious pace is certainly not essential for a fly half these days.

I love the "all of a sudden we are thinking he just can't cut it at 10" line. He's a fullback, and has played 99.999% of his career at fullback. In his breakthrough international season he made it on the Lions tour as a fullback. He is fast becoming one of the best attacking fullbacks on the circuit. There's nothing sudden about it - I've never suggested for a nano-second that he should or could successfully be moved to 10 for Scotland, not without playing at least a full season at 10 for Glasgow to develop his game (basically missing a full international season whilst he learns a new position).

You say he could "seamlessly move into the role". I'm sorry but that just isn't right. International rugby is unforgiving, and when put under pressure against the Brumbies he really struggled, as you would expect. It wasn't just the cobbled together nature of the backline, he just didn't know and wasn't able to execute any form of control on the game. When Farrell came on suddenly there was structure and authority given to the backs. Now I don't blame Hogg for a single second. He should NEVER have been used at 10 against proper opposition. The Farmers XV was a silly kick around to make up the fixtures, and you could have played just about any professional rugby back at 10 in that match and thumped them. The forwards won about 95% possession, and had relentless front foot ball. That tells us nothing.

The only reason to move him would be if we had a player just as good ready to fill his shoes at 15, and had no-one at 10. Neither are the case. Murchie are Tonks are perfectly solid players, but they are not close to Stuart Hogg in terms of attacking ability from 15. On the other hand I'd take Weir, Jackson or Heathcote ahead of experimenting with Hogg at 10 every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

At the very least you must agree that this is a non-starter for Scotland until Hogg gets a decent run of games in the Glasgow 10 jersey, and I just can't see that happening, certainly not in tough games like the Irish provinces away, or in the HC, which is where he'd need to prove himself to win the Scotland jersey.

What's that all about, just because I don't share your viewpoint doesn't make it incorrect or invalid.

I think we have different viewpoints on the capabilities of our 10s and 15s and that's ok, I am sure we both watch the players enough to form a basic opinion, I think Murchie is going to have a bloody good season and will be a better 15 option for the Scottish side as a whole that say Weir as a 10, I think Heathcote is good but as I said he isn't a marked man yet, and I have always said Jackson when he decides to play is a country mile ahead of Weir/Heathcote.

I probably can't argue with you on any of the points you have made on a certainty factor, suffice to say Hogg has played in other positions in his youth, and the U17-19 levels, certainly centre and I seem to remember moving into 10 prior to the U20s level. I believe he could move as seamlessly into the 10 role as easily as he has moved into the weegies 1st 15.... and the rationale I have had to this is that he hasn't played FB 99.999etc etc % of his young career but he has since U20s level. He came into the Rabbo Direct level without that much high level intensity experience (two games in the 2011 season if I am not wrong) and played consistently well. Its the same with 1/2p who never played 15 much but went from rookie to world class in what one or two games.

To qualify your stance based on the Brumbies game is lets be honest flimsy at best, and nothing wrong in admitting Farrell (who had a very good series in my opinion) shored the game up, as he had analysed it for best part of 60 mins with the coaches input.

I think he wouldn't need a full season to come up to speed of most of the 10s in Scotland as easily as he did coming into Rabbo Direct Level at 15, I am not saying its the right thing to do as he is our best 15 by far and I would rather see him at 15 and Jackson at 10.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 05 Sep 2013, 5:37 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:I think he wouldn't need a full season to come up to speed of most of the 10s in Scotland as easily as he did coming into Rabbo Direct Level at 15, I am not saying its the right thing to do as he is our best 15 by far and I would rather see him at 15 and Jackson at 10.

You really do have to wonder why we've spent so much time arguing, when we both completely agree on selection!!

by flyhalffactory Thu 05 Sep 2013, 5:45 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:I think he wouldn't need a full season to come up to speed of most of the 10s in Scotland as easily as he did coming into Rabbo Direct Level at 15, I am not saying its the right thing to do as he is our best 15 by far and I would rather see him at 15 and Jackson at 10.
You really do have to wonder why we've spent so much time arguing, when we both completely agree on selection!!

But the good thing is we are both making sense!!........... I think Hug

by Manky-Flanker Sat 07 Sep 2013, 10:05 am

Not completely unrelated, it is interesting to note that Scotland U20 flyhalf Tommy Allan is getting his first Top 14 start at 10 for Perpignan if their twitter feed is anything to go by. One for the future

by **George Carlin** Sat 07 Sep 2013, 1:23 pm

Manky-Flanker wrote:Not completely unrelated, it is interesting to note that Scotland U20 flyhalf Tommy Allan is getting his first Top 14 start at 10 for Perpignan if their twitter feed is anything to go by. One for the future

Good find Manky. We have to make sure cap him before the Saffers or (more likely) the Italians do...

by Tramptastic Sun 08 Sep 2013, 11:08 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Manky-Flanker wrote:Not completely unrelated, it is interesting to note that Scotland U20 flyhalf Tommy Allan is getting his first Top 14 start at 10 for Perpignan if their twitter feed is anything to go by. One for the future
Good find Manky. We have to make sure cap him before the Saffers or (more likely) the Italians do...

Just saw the brief match report on planet rugby, by the looks of things it was a Perpignan 2nd team with Hook and Strokosch on the bench but they almost nicked the match with Allan kicking all the points! Would be amusing if U20 Allan displaced 75 cap Hook this season, however I realistically expect Allan to have the odd match with most appearances restricted to from the bench which isni bad tbh

by Majestic83 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 12:46 pm

Saw some of the Perpignan game and Allan played very well. More than matching Sexton for a lot of the game. Think he will be getting quite a bit more game time this season for Perpignan as they see him as a real star for the future.

With guys like this coming through at 10 it makes no sense to move Hogg to 10. Hogg is one of the most exciting full backs around and in the coming years definitely has the potential to be one of the best in the world. What makes Hogg very exciting is his counter attack skills which he can only really do if he plays in the back 3. He does all the other full back duties well but his counter attack is better than most.

There are some good players coming through at 10 but if you move Hogg to 10 who will come in at full back. There are none up to Hoggs standard and none that would form as potent a back 3 as Hogg Maitland and Visser. Keep Hogg at 15 and he will get better and better there.

by Captain_Sensible Mon 09 Sep 2013, 4:54 pm

Majestic83 wrote:Saw some of the Perpignan game and Allan played very well. More than matching Sexton for a lot of the game. Think he will be getting quite a bit more game time this season for Perpignan as they see him as a real star for the future.

With guys like this coming through at 10 it makes no sense to move Hogg to 10. Hogg is one of the most exciting full backs around and in the coming years definitely has the potential to be one of the best in the world. What makes Hogg very exciting is his counter attack skills which he can only really do if he plays in the back 3. He does all the other full back duties well but his counter attack is better than most.

There are some good players coming through at 10 but if you move Hogg to 10 who will come in at full back. There are none up to Hoggs standard and none that would form as potent a back 3 as Hogg Maitland and Visser. Keep Hogg at 15 and he will get better and better there.

Great to hear! Is there a highlights package somewhere?

by alive555 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 5:09 pm

8. ashe
9. hidago clyne
10 allan

bennet
scott

mcv
farndale

hogg

looking good...

by funnyExiledScot Mon 09 Sep 2013, 5:10 pm

Hooray - sense at last.

I'm delighted to hear Allan is progressing nicely. Hopefully in a couple of seasons he'll be ready for his big move up in the world......to Edinburgh......

by Majestic83 Mon 09 Sep 2013, 10:21 pm

http://www.usap.tv/videos/137/774/5eme-journee-racing-metro-92-vs-usap/

That is the highlights from the Racing Metro v Perpignan game there for any who want to see Tommy Allan.

by **George Carlin** Tue 10 Sep 2013, 7:33 am

Majestic83 wrote:http://www.usap.tv/videos/137/774/5eme-journee-racing-metro-92-vs-usap/

That is the highlights from the Racing Metro v Perpignan game there for any who want to see Tommy Allan.

Good work Maj. He's quite a big lad, actually. I had always visualised him as a Lee Jones-esque bantamweight sprite. Except that Tommy is good at rugby, obviously.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Sep 2013, 8:40 am

Great stuff, Maj

He looks a handy prospect - obviously I'd advocate rushing him immediately into the full Scotland team! Wink

by EWT Spoons Tue 10 Sep 2013, 11:14 am

I'd actually suggest we do that, considering he's also eligble for Italy and in a few years France. I'm not saying we make him our starting 10, but in order to prevent us losing him to someone else, I would be in favour of a wee cameo appearance to tie him to Scotland.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 10 Sep 2013, 11:17 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Great stuff, Maj He looks a handy prospect - obviously I'd advocate rushing him immediately into the full Scotland team!

9.Hidalgo-Clyne 10.Allan 11.Farndale 12.Leonard 13.Bennett (c) 14.Fife 15.Russell

Backs to play South Africa at Murrayfield in the AIs. I think we're all on the same page.

by **George Carlin** Tue 10 Sep 2013, 11:36 am

EWT Spoons wrote:I'd actually suggest we do that, considering he's also eligble for Italy and in a few years France. I'm not saying we make him our starting 10, but in order to prevent us losing him to someone else, I would be in favour of a wee cameo appearance to tie him to Scotland.

Absolutely. It works when the All Blacks do it with their wingers.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Sep 2013, 11:48 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Great stuff, Maj He looks a handy prospect - obviously I'd advocate rushing him immediately into the full Scotland team!
9.~~Hidalgo-Clyne~~ Kennedy 10.Allan 11.Farndale 12.~~Leonard~~ Fergusson 13.Bennett (c) 14.~~Fife~~ Hoyland 15.Russell

Backs to play South Africa at Murrayfield in the AIs. I think we're all on the same page.

Man, fES, you are way behind the times - fixed it for you tho to spare any further embarrassment

by funnyExiledScot Tue 10 Sep 2013, 11:55 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Great stuff, Maj He looks a handy prospect - obviously I'd advocate rushing him immediately into the full Scotland team!
9.~~Hidalgo-Clyne~~ Kennedy 10.Allan 11.Farndale 12.~~Leonard~~ Fergusson 13.Bennett (c) 14.~~Fife~~ Hoyland 15.Russell

Backs to play South Africa at Murrayfield in the AIs. I think we're all on the same page.
Man, fES, you are way behind the times - fixed it for you tho to spare any further embarrassment

I dunno ASBO. Kennedy wasn't that great against Munster. I think he's past it personally. Tried. Tested. Failed. Time to move on. If we just play Hidalgo-Clyne in every game for Edinburgh and Scotland for the next 3 years, he'll naturally become world class.

Did you see him breaking out of the Edinbugh 22 against Munster chasing that LBP?? It's what I imagine a cross between Joost, Gregan and Matawalu would look like......

by Majestic83 Tue 10 Sep 2013, 12:07 pm

on the subject of Tommy Allan I think at present he actually qualifies for 4 countries, Scotland, Italy, South Africa and also England! Think he has already chosen Scotland as his country of choice. From the way the Perpignan fans are speaking about him certainly seems like they expect to see a lot more of him at 10 this season, a cap for Scotland A at some point won't be far off I think.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 10 Sep 2013, 12:16 pm

If he even plays a small handful of Perpignan games this season he could very quickly find himself in the Scotland squad, and on merit rather than simply securing his services "a la Shingler".

It looks like Jackson and Heathcote will make the squads this year given that there's no-one else playing (and Weir and Horne are injured), so if Allan can start a few games for Perpignan it's hard to see how he wouldn't be 3rd choice at the very least.

by Majestic83 Tue 10 Sep 2013, 12:34 pm

And if he continues to play like he did at the weekend then he would certainly deserve the spot. He looks a very confident player who is sharp and skillful but who isn't afraid of the physical stuff. Playing in a few different countries will have helped him develop probably quicker than the guys around him in the u20s from last year.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Sep 2013, 12:59 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:If he even plays a small handful of Perpignan games this season he could very quickly find himself in the Scotland squad, and on merit rather than simply securing his services "a la Shingler".

It looks like Jackson and Heathcote will make the squads this year given that there's no-one else playing (and Weir and Horne are injured), so if Allan can start a few games for Perpignan it's hard to see how he wouldn't be 3rd choice at the very least.

Weir will be back in a few weeks apparently, fES, but I'm afraid that yer man Heathcliffe has been relegated to third choice behind the coach's son and the Orange Buffoon

by funnyExiledScot Tue 10 Sep 2013, 2:23 pm

That really is bad news on the Heathcote front. I wonder if a loan to Edinburgh would be totally out of the question.

Good news on Weir. Really want him to kick on this season. I like his character and attitude, and his kicking game is pretty solid. He just needs a decent run of 4-5 games to get going.

Starting with Weir and then using Jackson as an impact sub sounds a sensible use of their talents to me, possibly switching the order against sides below us in the rankings.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Sep 2013, 2:39 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:That really is bad news on the Heathcote front. I wonder if a loan to Edinburgh would be totally out of the question.

Good news on Weir. Really want him to kick on this season. I like his character and attitude, and his kicking game is pretty solid. He just needs a decent run of 4-5 games to get going.

Starting with Weir and then using Jackson as an impact sub sounds a sensible use of their talents to me, possibly switching the order against sides below us in the rankings.

Superb idea - can I just an email to A Solomons and the MFL CEO?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 10 Sep 2013, 5:04 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:That really is bad news on the Heathcote front. I wonder if a loan to Edinburgh would be totally out of the question.

Good news on Weir. Really want him to kick on this season. I like his character and attitude, and his kicking game is pretty solid. He just needs a decent run of 4-5 games to get going.

Starting with Weir and then using Jackson as an impact sub sounds a sensible use of their talents to me, possibly switching the order against sides below us in the rankings.
Superb idea - can I just an email to A Solomons and the MFL CEO?

I think its MFLCEO@MFLcentral.co.uk. Feel free to email.

Solomons seems more old school to me. I suspect you'd need to write a letter.

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