HEC dead

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

English and French are in this together they have left the door open for others to join.
 
Good move and not before time.   

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

Toadfish, don't believe everything you read in the press.

Here's a link to the LNR site: http://www.lnr.fr/actualites - not a peep

Here's a link to the PRL site: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/28786.php#.UjAtuT8pic5 - the English clubs have asked the PRL to develop a competition for them and the French. So, loads of scope for the French to say "non, feic off, we want the other 4 unions' clubs too", wouldn't you say?

Each union is entitled to decide its own qualification process. If RFU and their clubs decide to flog their players to death that is their problem. European Cup is about the top teams from each nation not each league. England and France already have massive resources - both human and financial which should give them a huge advantage in any competition but they are still not satisfied and want to control the competition so that only they and "invited" sides from other unions take part. Next they'll be telling the other unions how to decide their qualification.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

Toadfish, don't believe everything you read in the press.

Here's a link to the LNR site: http://www.lnr.fr/actualites - not a peep

Here's a link to the PRL site: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/28786.php#.UjAtuT8pic5 - the English clubs have asked the PRL to develop a competition for them and the French.  So, loads of scope for the French to say "non, feic off, we want the other 4 unions' clubs too", wouldn't you say?

I've seen enough to convince me that they are in it together and have always been. You believe what you want.

Scarpia wrote: European Cup is about the top teams from each nation not each league.

Exactly as it should be.

The LNR press release:

http://www.lnr.fr/espace-medias-communiques-de-presse-coupe-d-europe-communique-de-presse-de-la-lnr-10-09-2013-11-66-16849,16849.html

Google translated:

"European Cup: Press the NRL
Find the press release of the National Rugby League for the European Cup next season. He referred to the situation in which the clubs are now TOP 14 after the termination of the agreement signed in 2007 and expires at the end of the season, and the latter's request, made NRL to take steps to implement a competition for the season 2014/2015, necessarily involving English clubs and French clubs, and will be open to other nations.

European Cups
TOP 14 just played its fifth day, and clubs still have no visibility on European competitions they compete next season. Agreement on the organization of European Cups, concluded in 2007, terminated in June 2012 and expires at the end of 2013/2014. Season Despite several meetings between all the countries over the past year, the NRL and clubs TOP 14 can only see the failure of negotiations on development of a new agreement. Consequently, given the seriousness and urgency of the situation, the TOP 14 clubs would like to remind that they will only participate in competitions also involving English clubs. They also asked the NRL to take steps to implement a competition for the season 2014/2015, necessarily involving English clubs and French clubs, and will be open to other nations."


Not a peep from FFR, though, as far as I can find, and they may add a different complexion before the week is out.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

No party wants to exclude any other. The English and French just want a competition with each club/region treated equally. At the moment Rabo teams each get 4% of he revenue and AP and Top14 teams 2% each.  The Rabo teams get automatic qualifying and so can rest players prior to the HEC. Because they qualify each year they automatically accumulate seeding points and so get easier draws than AP and Top14 teams who have qualified for the first time in a few years.

It is true the French want all included but it looks like given the choice between an unfair competition with the Rabo or a fair one with the English they have chosen the latter. They like me think that they can persuade the others to join. Given the parlous state of Welsh and Scottish rugby finances they are probably right. The Welsh regions are currently trying to persuade the last few remaining top Welsh players to stay in Wales. What do you think these players are likely to do on reading this news? Once the top players go so will the remaining spectators.

The other factor in all this is that the ERC seem to be incompetent when it comes to negotiating TV rights. How did PRL manage to get twice the money from BT as the ERC got from Sky?

I have to admitt I'm really happy about this news, for too long we've gone along with this unfair competition it's time to make a stand and set up a new Comp that is on a level playing field

I'll wait with bated breath for the Serbian top side in the next EC then, LP.

The Six Nations won't divisionalise and allow proper competition.

LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU  wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory. SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding). So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals. I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved. So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead. I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament. Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7. The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely  

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby. If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby. Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

Toadfish, don't believe everything you read in the press.

Here's a link to the LNR site: http://www.lnr.fr/actualites - not a peep

Here's a link to the PRL site: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/28786.php#.UjAtuT8pic5 - the English clubs have asked the PRL to develop a competition for them and the French.  So, loads of scope for the French to say "non, feic off, we want the other 4 unions' clubs too", wouldn't you say?

Not a peep from LNR? That is other than their press release which, unsurprisingly, says pretty much the same as the one from the PRL.

Exiledinborders wrote:The Welsh regions are currently trying to persuade the last few remaining top Welsh players to stay in Wales.

Have a look at Wales's Six Nations squad from last season and note where they play their club rugby. Since then, a whopping three of those players have moved to clubs outside Wales. You exaggerate a tad.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Nice to see the Clubs vs Unions argument is still motoring on with levels of pointless vitriol coming out.

The HEC won't be here next year because the Rabo nations refuse to give a toss about the clubs and a European competition with multiple levels of coherent competition. The clubs are in command of the cash and are taking their ball and going home in a childish display of power over the Unions arrogance in refusal to.negotiate.

Toml the Anglo French suggestion included a third tier for developing nations. The Rabo Unions refused to help fund this third tier because it would involve not selling the European rights on the cheap to their pals or it would cost them money and if nothing else the ERC is a self serving old boys club.

Its funny how you make references to all the points above but then clearly leave out all the disadvantages that the Celtic Rugby Nations face in the HC.

For example - our playing budgets are less than English and French outfits. If you want a level playing field cap salary spends to make it fair. French and English would refuse to agree to this but this is the only way they can import their best players.

Secondly - Nationality. We operate under strict non national quotas. The French don't at all and the English clubs stretch it to the limit as well. How about a European competition where 90% of starting players have to be nationals. Oh I know why they wont agree to that because basically we would never see a French or English team lifting the European Cup again.

At least see 2 sides of the coin. Its not like the Celtic Nations do get it all their own way.....

Welshmushroom wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU  wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory.  SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding).  So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals.  I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved.  So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead.  I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament.  Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7.  The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely  

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby.  If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby.  Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.  

Bitter!

This is why we need to get out.

Late to the discussion guys.

Just to clarify.

Heineken Cup is just about gone?
The English and French Clubs are now suggesting two competitions of twenty teams each?

What is this format they are talking about, is it a two tier system with promotion and relegation, or is it two totally separate entities?

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

My agenda?

You make sound like a Bond villain what the hell are you talking about ???

Point being it is the PRL that are trying to start their own self serving rival competition not anyone else, which is what the announcement is about.

Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.

beshocked wrote:Luckless Pedestrian not sure what the RFU has to do with it. Pro12 have 11 of their 12 clubs in the HC. England has 6 out of 12. 7 out of 14 for the French.

Toadfish Is it coincidence that most of the history is rubbish comes from Pro12 supporters? You don't like what history says.

Maestegmafia you wish.

Luckless Pedestrian you can't pick and choose when you are seperate unions or when part of the Pro12. You are part of the Pro12 - this means you should have qualification just like the AP and Top 14. Why should the Irish,Welsh,Scots and Italians have an easy ride when it comes to  HC rugby? Simply because you have less sides?

You talk about development yet not many pro12 sides have actually progressed in the HC outside Leinster,Munster and recently Ulster.

I want to see 6,6, 8. Hardly draconian.

alabut100ofus you can't debate with me about HC records because Edinburgh and Glasgow have woeful ones. There is no getting round that.

You call it bullying yet the way it sounds - 4 unions want to bully two.

We only have 11 because the winner of the HC gets an extra place for a team from their country, had your 6,6,8 rule been in place last year Connacht would have qualified outright anyway, as would Treviso.

tomhughesnice wrote:Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.  
 

According to the earlier pages the English receive 24% as do the French whereas the Rabo nations receive 52% between them. If this is divided equally (I'm not saying it is as I don't know) that's 13% each

Welshmushroom wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU  wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory.  SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding).  So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals.  I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved.  So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead.  I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament.  Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7.  The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely  

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby.  If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby.  Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.  

I do not think I have ever read such a stream of drivel!

Why do you think the SH teams want to play Rabo teams? It is much more likely they would join with French and English.

Your idea of banning players from playing in French and English leagues would last about five seconds in the European court. Have you not heard of freedom of movement and the single market?

Sky may be upset but they do not have as deep pockets as BT. Sky also are interested in audiences and would not be happy with getting audiences in Scotland, Wales and Ireland with a tiny total population compared to England and France.

You are right that this is a pivotal moment. If the Rabo continue to stick their head in the sand the current position where players are leaving Rabo teams for AP and Top14 will accelerate. We could end up with a Rabo that ends up like the sad picture that is Scottish soccer.

I think the headline is wrong - it's not the HEC that's dead it's potentially professional top level rugby in Europe - if both sides stick to thier guns the impact of this is going to set rugby on exactly the same course as football, only with the smaller scale of rugby the impact is going to be far greater, this is could see the end of the 6Ns, the Lions and effectively we can give the World Cup to the SH in perpetuity.
In a few years there will be a few rich mans toys playing with each other in England and France, the fans will all be complaining that the teams are full of SH players with no loyalty to the team beyond the pay cheque and the national team isn't doing well because the players aren't getting game time at the top clubs  - in short all the problems that football now has in spades.
And the fans of Jeff clubs outside the big four, don't kid yoursleves this will make your team any better or more competitive, this is about making the already rich richer and the big four are going to pull further and further away.

Mickado wrote:

beshocked wrote:Luckless Pedestrian not sure what the RFU has to do with it. Pro12 have 11 of their 12 clubs in the HC. England has 6 out of 12. 7 out of 14 for the French.

Toadfish Is it coincidence that most of the history is rubbish comes from Pro12 supporters? You don't like what history says.

Maestegmafia you wish.

Luckless Pedestrian you can't pick and choose when you are seperate unions or when part of the Pro12. You are part of the Pro12 - this means you should have qualification just like the AP and Top 14. Why should the Irish,Welsh,Scots and Italians have an easy ride when it comes to  HC rugby? Simply because you have less sides?

You talk about development yet not many pro12 sides have actually progressed in the HC outside Leinster,Munster and recently Ulster.

I want to see 6,6, 8. Hardly draconian.

alabut100ofus you can't debate with me about HC records because Edinburgh and Glasgow have woeful ones. There is no getting round that.

You call it bullying yet the way it sounds - 4 unions want to bully two.

We only have 11 because the winner of the HC gets an extra place for a team from their country, had your 6,6,8 rule been in place last year Connacht would have qualified outright anyway, as would Treviso.

Only 11.

I am not against Treviso or Connacht being in the HC if they earn it through qualification.

Standulstermen wrote:

tomhughesnice wrote:Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.  
 

According to the earlier pages the English receive 24% as do the French whereas the Rabo nations receive 52% between them. If this is divided equally (I'm not saying it is as I don't know) that's 13% each

You are correct Stand,

I can't see any reason for the English or French clubs being awarded more, they get almost double everyone else anyway. Plus without the celts and Italians the quality of the competition drops drastically. There are only four or five decent teams in England and France there are six or seven in the rp12

beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC.  Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC.  They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage

maestegmafia wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

My agenda?

You make sound like a Bond villain what the hell are you talking about ???

Point being it is the PRL that are trying to start their own self serving rival competition not anyone else, which is what the announcement is about.

Ok then let’s see if this clears anything up. Given that the French have acted in exactly the same manner as the English in this matter do you think they also should be excluded in the future as you have suggested?

I think the saddest thing in all this it that it has been driven not by the interests of rugby but by the business drivers of BT - they are losing their broadband market to Sky and Virgin and have bought into sport as a way of trying to regain it.
BT aren't even that bothered about the rugby, it's clear that their main advertising thrust and USP is the football and our game is incidental. Once they see the viewing figures and more importantly the advertisers and sponsors do they'll drop rugby like a stone but by then the damage will be too deep to repair.

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

My agenda?

You make sound like a Bond villain what the hell are you talking about ???

Point being it is the PRL that are trying to start their own self serving rival competition not anyone else, which is what the announcement is about.

Ok then let’s see if this clears anything up.  Given that the French have acted in exactly the same manner as the English in this matter do you think they also should be excluded in the future as you have suggested?

Do you have trouble reading?

Irish Londoner wrote:I think the saddest thing in all this it that it has been driven not by the interests of rugby but by the business drivers of BT - they are losing their broadband market to Sky and Virgin and have bought into sport as a way of trying to regain it.
BT aren't even that bothered about the rugby, it's clear that their main advertising thrust and USP is the football and our game is incidental. Once they see the viewing figures and more importantly the advertisers and sponsors do they'll drop rugby like a stone but by then the damage will be too deep to repair.

What is amazing is how many people can not see that. If I were an English rugby fan I would have been far more sceptical of the impact of a company that are trying to buy my sport so that I move my telecoms package to their company.

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

tomhughesnice wrote:Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.  
 

According to the earlier pages the English receive 24% as do the French whereas the Rabo nations receive 52% between them. If this is divided equally (I'm not saying it is as I don't know) that's 13% each

You are correct Stand,

I can't see any reason for the English or French clubs being awarded more, they get almost double everyone else anyway. Plus without the celts and Italians Irish the quality of the competition drops drastically a bit. There are only four or five decent teams in England and France there are six or seven two or three in the rp12

Fixed that for you.

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

tomhughesnice wrote:Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.  
 

According to the earlier pages the English receive 24% as do the French whereas the Rabo nations receive 52% between them. If this is divided equally (I'm not saying it is as I don't know) that's 13% each

You are correct Stand,

I can't see any reason for the English or French clubs being awarded more, they get almost double everyone else anyway. Plus without the celts and Italians the quality of the competition drops drastically. There are only four or five decent teams in England and France there are six or seven in the rp12

Clubs and regions play in the HEC not countries. I do not remember Leicester playing Scotland or Saints playing Wales. English and French clubs each get around 2% of the total revenue but Rabo regions get around 4%.

beshocked wrote:

Mickado wrote:

beshocked wrote:Luckless Pedestrian not sure what the RFU has to do with it. Pro12 have 11 of their 12 clubs in the HC. England has 6 out of 12. 7 out of 14 for the French.

Toadfish Is it coincidence that most of the history is rubbish comes from Pro12 supporters? You don't like what history says.

Maestegmafia you wish.

Luckless Pedestrian you can't pick and choose when you are seperate unions or when part of the Pro12. You are part of the Pro12 - this means you should have qualification just like the AP and Top 14. Why should the Irish,Welsh,Scots and Italians have an easy ride when it comes to  HC rugby? Simply because you have less sides?

You talk about development yet not many pro12 sides have actually progressed in the HC outside Leinster,Munster and recently Ulster.

I want to see 6,6, 8. Hardly draconian.

alabut100ofus you can't debate with me about HC records because Edinburgh and Glasgow have woeful ones. There is no getting round that.

You call it bullying yet the way it sounds - 4 unions want to bully two.

We only have 11 because the winner of the HC gets an extra place for a team from their country, had your 6,6,8 rule been in place last year Connacht would have qualified outright anyway, as would Treviso.

Only 11.

I am not against Treviso or Connacht being in the HC if they earn it through qualification.

Yes 11, 2 less than your proposal would currently see in there. Is it really worth setting up a new competition because one league gets 2 extra teams?

maestegmafia wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I hope the PRL are just bluffing because the IRB certainly will not be when they get involved.

Might well see the HEC continue with the English excluded after their behaviour.

And the French I assume as they have behaved in exactly the same manner as the English?  But that doesn't suit your agenda does it...

Actually they haven't - the French official position (rather than the one given to them by the PRL) is that they don't want to participate in a tournament that excludes ANY party

Then you seem to have missed the news that these current developments are a joint move, just as the submitting of notice was.

My agenda?

You make sound like a Bond villain what the hell are you talking about ???

Point being it is the PRL that are trying to start their own self serving rival competition not anyone else, which is what the announcement is about.

Ok then let’s see if this clears anything up.  Given that the French have acted in exactly the same manner as the English in this matter do you think they also should be excluded in the future as you have suggested?

Do you have trouble reading?

I have no problem with my reading or comprehension thank you however you seem to be severely deficient in at least one of these areas.

Excuse my ignorance but does BT really have deeper pockets than the sky empire? I can't help but feel this BT Sport venture is doomed to fail.

My maths are shaky but essentially you 48 % between 12 teams. That's 4% per team. The IRFU have 4 teams and 13%. Thats less than 4%. Even with 3 teams it isn't much more than 4%

Mickado wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Mickado wrote:

beshocked wrote:Luckless Pedestrian not sure what the RFU has to do with it. Pro12 have 11 of their 12 clubs in the HC. England has 6 out of 12. 7 out of 14 for the French.

Toadfish Is it coincidence that most of the history is rubbish comes from Pro12 supporters? You don't like what history says.

Maestegmafia you wish.

Luckless Pedestrian you can't pick and choose when you are seperate unions or when part of the Pro12. You are part of the Pro12 - this means you should have qualification just like the AP and Top 14. Why should the Irish,Welsh,Scots and Italians have an easy ride when it comes to  HC rugby? Simply because you have less sides?

You talk about development yet not many pro12 sides have actually progressed in the HC outside Leinster,Munster and recently Ulster.

I want to see 6,6, 8. Hardly draconian.

alabut100ofus you can't debate with me about HC records because Edinburgh and Glasgow have woeful ones. There is no getting round that.

You call it bullying yet the way it sounds - 4 unions want to bully two.

We only have 11 because the winner of the HC gets an extra place for a team from their country, had your 6,6,8 rule been in place last year Connacht would have qualified outright anyway, as would Treviso.

Only 11.

I am not against Treviso or Connacht being in the HC if they earn it through qualification.

Yes 11, 2 less than your proposal would currently see in there. Is it really worth setting up a new competition because one league gets 2 extra teams?

It is if you want to CONTROL it and get extra MONEY

That’s what I expect As, because just changing the qualification process is not that big a deal.

I hope the Irish teams don’t join, whoever wins will have won a very devalued competition.

Maybe we could play a few touring sides now?

Interesting to see even pro English rugby papers jurnos have had a real problem with BT taking on the PRL a quick financial gain with long term damage seems to be the opinion but the armchair boys on 606 think the PRL is made for life.

maestegmafia wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:I think the saddest thing in all this it that it has been driven not by the interests of rugby but by the business drivers of BT - they are losing their broadband market to Sky and Virgin and have bought into sport as a way of trying to regain it.
BT aren't even that bothered about the rugby, it's clear that their main advertising thrust and USP is the football and our game is incidental. Once they see the viewing figures and more importantly the advertisers and sponsors do they'll drop rugby like a stone but by then the damage will be too deep to repair.

What is amazing is how many people can not see that. If I were an English rugby fan I would have been far more sceptical of the impact of a company that are trying to buy my sport so that I move my telecoms package to their company.

Whereas Murdoch's Sky TV are only thinking about the future of Rugby. Both Sky and BT want the same thing from their subscribers; to sell them TV, telephony and broadband. Their objectives are identical.

Face facts, the day Rugby went professional it became a business. The players sell their skills to the highest bidder. George North is not in Northampton because he likes the place but because they are the highest bidder. The same applies to the clubs. They sell TV rights to the highest bidder.

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

tomhughesnice wrote:Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.  
 

According to the earlier pages the English receive 24% as do the French whereas the Rabo nations receive 52% between them. If this is divided equally (I'm not saying it is as I don't know) that's 13% each

You are correct Stand,

I can't see any reason for the English or French clubs being awarded more, they get almost double everyone else anyway. Plus without the celts and Italians the quality of the competition drops drastically. There are only four or five decent teams in England and France there are six or seven in the rp12

England and France both have a minimum 6 teams in the competition meaning they each have at least a 27% of the total teams in the comp, which means their current 24% financial share is not far off. But if they have 7 teams in the competition they will represent almost 32% of the total 22 teams. So this means the England and French clubs are receiving 8% less than if the money was shared equally between the represented clubs.

Scrumpy wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU  wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory.  SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding).  So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals.  I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved.  So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead.  I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament.  Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7.  The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely  

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby.  If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby.  Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.  

Bitter!

This is why we need to get out.

Actually point 7 was a joke. Not bitter at all. The other 6 remaining points where actually positive points as a rugby fan I would love to see a HC that has all the best teams in it from around the world to see if Super 15 rugby really is better than NH rugby. All my points would add a better unity to the game globally and allow better organisation of competitions. I couldn't really care less what French or English Rugby wants to do and if they feel this way let them go and do their own thing.

I don't get why the Celtic nations are so worried, you don't rate us anyway you've made that clear over the last number of years.

Or is it the realisation that you'll be missing out on a lot of money and the fact that your best players will want a piece of the pie?

It really doesn't matter who are better sides or which league is stronger.... this is about marketability. This is pro rugby and pro rugby needs to be financed.

If 2/3 regions supplies 80% of the money, 80% of the audience etc and they feel the other region has an unfair advantage then I can imagine they would be upset... whether its justified or not.

The Rabo is trying to keep al the benefits of there being a HC but not providing a level playing field of entrance.
Lets not pretend, the Rabo can be a joke at times due to their practices.

I'm not schooled up on the revenue generated by the HC but I can imagine its relatively important to the participants. Sky won't be interested in it without England, end of... no matter if the clubs promise to put full strength sides out.

How many people in England watch La Liga compared to the Premiership... its probably not even close. People want to see their own teams, not just the best quality sides.
How many watch SR and Currie Cup as often as you watch your own teams when matches are on? Some perhaps.... most, probably only when their is nothing more to watch right???

Scrumpy wrote:I don't get why the Celtic nations are so worried, you don't rate us anyway you've made that clear over the last number of years.

Or is it the realisation that you'll be missing out on a lot of money and the fact that your best players will want a piece of the pie?

We ain't worrying we are just sad to seethe HC gone.

fa0019 wrote:It really doesn't matter who are better sides or which league is stronger.... this is about marketability. This is pro rugby and pro rugby needs to be financed.

If 2/3 regions supplies 80% of the money, 80% of the audience etc and they feel the other region has an unfair advantage then I can imagine they would be upset... whether its justified or not.

The Rabo is trying to keep al the benefits of there being a HC but not providing a level playing field of entrance.
Lets not pretend, the Rabo can be a joke at times due to their practices.

I'm not schooled up on the revenue generated by the HC but I can imagine its relatively important to the participants. Sky won't be interested in it without England, end of... no matter if the clubs promise to put full strength sides out.

How many people in England watch La Liga compared to the Premiership... its probably not even close. People want to see their own teams, not just the best quality sides.
How many watch SR and Currie Cup as often as you watch your own teams when matches are on? Some perhaps.... most, probably only when their is nothing more to watch right???

Rugby going the way of soccerball - something I'm really keen to see NOT

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I don't get why the Celtic nations are so worried, you don't rate us anyway you've made that clear over the last number of years.

Or is it the realisation that you'll be missing out on a lot of money and the fact that your best players will want a piece of the pie?

We ain't worrying we are just sad to see the HC gone.

Yes, because the Heinken Cup featured the best sides from all six countries.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU  wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we. 

This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory.  SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding).  So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals.  I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved.  So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead.  I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament.  Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7.  The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely  

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby.  If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby.  Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.  

Bitter!

This is why we need to get out.

Actually point 7 was a joke.  Not bitter at all.  The other 6 remaining points where actually positive points as a rugby fan I would love to see a HC that has all the best teams in it from around the world to see if Super 15 rugby really is better than NH rugby.  All my points would add a better unity to the game globally and allow better organisation of competitions.  I couldn't really care less what French or English Rugby wants to do and if they feel this way let them go and do their own thing.

Let me get that that right. Your points are designed for global unity but you do not care what France or England do!

The real danger in all this is that the IRB try and stop the PRL and Top14. If they do the danger is that there is a breakaway from the IRB. The result of which would be the best players in the world would play in the breakaway organisation just based on money and they would not be available for their countries. Not likely at the moment but possible.

tomhughesnice wrote:Even though I do love the HEC, you do have to appreciate the English and French clubs position.
As I understand it all profits(I think) are split equally between the unions. But the English and French have double or more teams than their Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Italian counterparts. So a club like Munster would receive double the money Leicester receives?
If this is the case, then you really cant fault the English and French clubs complaint.

Will be interesting to see what Premier rugby come up with. But a single 20 club competition will probably mean that lower tier teams will not get the exposure to top flight European rugby.  
 

Actually this is not true - Currently profits are split by success within the tournament. In other words only so much money is handed out for qualifying for it and the majority of money is then allotted to how they qualify etc. This is primarily why the pot has been split unfairly in the PRL's opinion. So Irish have generally received more in prize money as they have made up 33% of the qtr final draws most years. It actually puts the emphasis on qualifying teams trying to make the qtr finals and being successful. The last thing you want is a format where qualifying teams automatically divide the money equally because you would get a format where potentially the European Cup could be treated as a second rate tournament by the French.

Welshmushroom wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC.  Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC.  They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it.  Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage

The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.

Just a thought, does the bulk of the TV revenue not come from England's population and France's?

Is this not a way for them to earn more money to compete with French club player's salaries?

http://www.keo.co.za/2013/09/11/south-african-super-rugby-franchises-must-play-in-the-northern-hemisphere/
If it was teams from the Curry Cup(with the Super Rugby players involved) IMSHO I could see this working. If it was the Super Rugby Franchises the same problem of non competitive entry would occure

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I don't get why the Celtic nations are so worried, you don't rate us anyway you've made that clear over the last number of years.

Or is it the realisation that you'll be missing out on a lot of money and the fact that your best players will want a piece of the pie?

We ain't worrying we are just sad to seethe HC gone.

Well some of us English and French aren't, the ball has been in ERC side of the court for some time yet they have been unwilling to hit it back.