HEC dead

by justified sinner Tue 10 Sep 2013, 5:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

by beshocked Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:04 am

Mickado wrote:That’s what I expect As, because just changing the qualification process is not that big a deal.

I hope the Irish teams don’t join, whoever wins will have won a very devalued competition.

Maybe we could play a few touring sides now?

You mean like Ulster did when English teams didn't play?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:06 am

beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.

Beshocked, you seem unable to distinguish unions from leagues. The Heineken Cup is a competition between sides from six unions, not three leagues.

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:08 am

Scrumpy wrote:I don't get why the Celtic nations are so worried, you don't rate us anyway you've made that clear over the last number of years.

Or is it the realisation that you'll be missing out on a lot of money and the fact that your best players will want a piece of the pie?

You make it sound like English Rugby isn't under threat from French budgets. Here is a stat for you:

In the last 24 months there have been more high profile exists to France from England than the Pro 12.

So feel free to join the French by all means. When they dilute your playing talent in England and then start wanting a "fairer share of profits" due to their financial commitments and big salary commitments, don't come crying to us. Getting in bed with the French is crazy at the best of times as its impossible to guess which direction they will go in the future. If you are happy to hitch your wagon to that I wish you all the best.

by Standulstermen Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:10 am

beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.

3 English QFs. 2 Rabo. 1 semi finalist each.
Season before we had two Rabo finalists and 3 semi finalists. And that season Munster got 6 from 6 in the pools and Leinster didn't lose a game.

There I took it back two years and Rabo outperformed you. What a stupid point.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:11 am

Standulstermen wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
3 English QFs. 2 Rabo. 1 semi finalist each.
Season before we had two Rabo finalists and 3 semi finalists. And that season Munster got 6 from 6 in the pools and Leinster didn't lose a game.

There I took it back two years and Rabo outperformed you. What a stupid point.

What a stupid man

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:11 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we.
This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory. SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding). So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals. I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved. So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead. I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament. Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7. The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby. If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby. Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.
Bitter!

This is why we need to get out.
Actually point 7 was a joke. Not bitter at all. The other 6 remaining points where actually positive points as a rugby fan I would love to see a HC that has all the best teams in it from around the world to see if Super 15 rugby really is better than NH rugby. All my points would add a better unity to the game globally and allow better organisation of competitions. I couldn't really care less what French or English Rugby wants to do and if they feel this way let them go and do their own thing.
Let me get that that right. Your points are designed for global unity but you do not care what France or England do!

The real danger in all this is that the IRB try and stop the PRL and Top14. If they do the danger is that there is a breakaway from the IRB. The result of which would be the best players in the world would play in the breakaway organisation just based on money and they would not be available for their countries. Not likely at the moment but possible.

Its not that I don't care about England or France. But when people put their own needs before others it generally results in a impossible dispute. At this stage just let them do their own thing and lets just focus on improving the Pro 12 tournament as a spectacle.

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:12 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
Beshocked, you seem unable to distinguish unions from leagues. The Heineken Cup is a competition between sides from six unions, not three leagues.

Competitions between countries should be organised between countries - like the 6N.

Competions between clubs/regions should be organised by those clubs/regions.

According to the article in the Guardian today it seems some at least of the Pro12 sides are pretty fed up with their unions and they would like to join new competition.

by Scrumpy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:17 am

"According to the article in the Guardian today it seems some at least of the Pro12 sides are pretty fed up with their unions and they would like to join new competition.."

Good for them, I guess thats why the English and French have left the door open.

by Mickado Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:19 am

beshocked wrote:
Mickado wrote:That’s what I expect As, because just changing the qualification process is not that big a deal.

I hope the Irish teams don’t join, whoever wins will have won a very devalued competition.

Maybe we could play a few touring sides now?
You mean like Ulster did when English teams didn't play?

Well by the time Ulster had won only 1 English team had won, and they did defeat Toulouse along the way. A French / English competition would be without 5 of the last 7 winners of the cup. Pretty clear which is of more value.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:19 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
Beshocked, you seem unable to distinguish unions from leagues. The Heineken Cup is a competition between sides from six unions, not three leagues.
Competitions between countries should be organised between countries - like the 6N.

Competions between clubs/regions should be organised by those clubs/regions.

Overseen by whom?

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:20 am

beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.

Again you seem to make to reference to the clear advantages England have over their Celtic counterparts. Take your beloved Saracens for example. Your talking about having qualified 50% of your squad through residency. If Wales, Irish, Scottish & Italian sides didn't have strict foreign quotas we would be able to compete at a better standard as well. And Actually I think Saracens have been one of the better sides for fielding English players in recent years. London Irish and Sale by contrast are a total sham.

Also your salary caps are higher than ours. If you want a fairer system why are we not talking about restricting participating teams salary spends.

So to summarize our agreement then:

1. Equal share of profit based on league qualification per league (6 from each)

Counter agreement

2. Restriction of 90% Home country nationals with limit on residency qualified players & non qualified other internationals.
3. Salary Cap introduced of 4 million for all nominated players to participate in the HC.

Now that looks fairer to me. Good luck with that.

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:20 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If things start turning spitefull between the nations in this it could escolate into the international game, lets not forget, the six nations is purely invitational and we all know what happened when the English RFU wanted to sell all their six nations games to sky and keep all the money and have a bigger slice of the pie back then, they were told they would not be invited and they threatened to start a new tournament with the tri nations sides, and we all know how that went don't we.
This isn't actually that far away from happening again in theory. SH sides are already taking NH sides to the cleaners financially when they tour in the November series (especially New Zealand, who now command 50% of the gate as is my understanding). So by that logic I don't think England would be welcomed into the fold with them as currently the Autumn internationals provide exactly what they need from that window of internationals. I would imagine if the Celtic Nations leaned on France their Union would get involved. So a 5 Nations with the English is not necessarily unlikely and given its the single biggest money spinner in World Rugby its hard to figure out where the RFU would be able to sustain their income streams if the 6 Nations didn't exist and the SH sides refused to include them.

Back to the subject at hand though, I'm glad if the Anglo/French competition goes ahead. I really do hope all the Celtic Nations then use their heads and not join the tournament. Why? Here are the obvious advantages:-

1. Unifying the season to match the SH S15 tournament
2. The opportunity to replace the existing HC with a global tournament including Japan, Argentina, South Africa, Australia & New Zealand which would be possible to arrange once the calendar for S15 and the Pro12 matched.
3. The possibility of adding to the Pro12 format including additional European Nations without any objections (as currently even Italy joining the league had to be signed off by the PRL and French Unions.
4. The possibility of isolating the French and English and subjectively with their domestic games and barring international players from participating internationally if involved in those domestic tournaments similar to Australia & New Zealand.
5. Summer Rugby - which should help improve the attendances as well as not cause direct competition with other sports.
6. The opportunity to work with Sky and other broadcasters who would be upset at the PRL and BT.
7. The possibility of England being removed from the 6 Nations & NH tour windows - thus rendering the opportunity of winning a World Cup unlikely due to regular international top tier rugby.

Ok the last one is unlikely

Anyway I do think this is a pivotal moment for NH Rugby. If Celtic rolls over now and does not ally itself with their SH counterparts, its only a matter of time before French rugby absorbs all the playing talent in world rugby. Allowing club owners to control and dictate what happens with the structure of any part of the game will destroy the building blocks of international rugby.
Bitter!

This is why we need to get out.
Actually point 7 was a joke. Not bitter at all. The other 6 remaining points where actually positive points as a rugby fan I would love to see a HC that has all the best teams in it from around the world to see if Super 15 rugby really is better than NH rugby. All my points would add a better unity to the game globally and allow better organisation of competitions. I couldn't really care less what French or English Rugby wants to do and if they feel this way let them go and do their own thing.
Let me get that that right. Your points are designed for global unity but you do not care what France or England do!

The real danger in all this is that the IRB try and stop the PRL and Top14. If they do the danger is that there is a breakaway from the IRB. The result of which would be the best players in the world would play in the breakaway organisation just based on money and they would not be available for their countries. Not likely at the moment but possible.
Its not that I don't care about England or France. But when people put their own needs before others it generally results in a impossible dispute. At this stage just let them do their own thing and lets just focus on improving the Pro 12 tournament as a spectacle.

I am not sure how Pro12 is improved if all the best players leave as is increasingly happening. This will accellerate if Anglo/French competition goes ahead. Also the PRL/LNR suggestion of qualification from Rabo would surely have improved Rabo as a spectacle. I would not want to watch a league in which sides regularly play their second teams.

by beshocked Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:21 am

Standulstermen wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
3 English QFs. 2 Rabo. 1 semi finalist each.
Season before we had two Rabo finalists and 3 semi finalists. And that season Munster got 6 from 6 in the pools and Leinster didn't lose a game.

There I took it back two years and Rabo outperformed you. What a stupid point.

How is it a stupid point? I am correct.

Oh right now you're back to being Rabo, not individual countries. Picking and choosing when to be Rabo and when to be seperate unions again I see.

Edinburgh's semi final was a flash in a pan, shown quite clearly by the battering they took in the HC last season.

If we include the entire HC - the English have outperformed the Pro12 sides as a whole in terms of win rates.

You might say oh well - win rates are rubbish. That's because your record is below 50% overall.

alasbut100ofus I don't blame you for disliking win rates. If my side was that poor I would be angry too.

by Pete330v2 Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:22 am

Irish Londoner wrote:I think the saddest thing in all this it that it has been driven not by the interests of rugby but by the business drivers of BT - they are losing their broadband market to Sky and Virgin and have bought into sport as a way of trying to regain it.
BT aren't even that bothered about the rugby, it's clear that their main advertising thrust and USP is the football and our game is incidental. Once they see the viewing figures and more importantly the advertisers and sponsors do they'll drop rugby like a stone but by then the damage will be too deep to repair.

That's what worries me the most. The damage that could be done to rugby union across the board regardless of what club/region/country your side is from. This is about business. It's about making money and lots of it. It has nothing to do with the competition being 'fair', it's only about it being profitable.

by Mickado Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:24 am

No need to start throwing insults around lads, lets keep it clean.

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:24 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
Again you seem to make to reference to the clear advantages England have over their Celtic counterparts. Take your beloved Saracens for example. Your talking about having qualified 50% of your squad through residency. If Wales, Irish, Scottish & Italian sides didn't have strict foreign quotas we would be able to compete at a better standard as well. And Actually I think Saracens have been one of the better sides for fielding English players in recent years. London Irish and Sale by contrast are a total sham.

Also your salary caps are higher than ours. If you want a fairer system why are we not talking about restricting participating teams salary spends.

So to summarize our agreement then:

1. Equal share of profit based on league qualification per league (6 from each)

Counter agreement

2. Restriction of 90% Home country nationals with limit on residency qualified players & non qualified other internationals.
3. Salary Cap introduced of 4 million for all nominated players to participate in the HC.

Now that looks fairer to me. Good luck with that.

Good luck with having illegal racial quotas in club competitions.

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:24 am

To be honest Exiled, its why they will have to bring in a home based players selection policy. Its the only way to really combat this.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:24 am

beshocked wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
3 English QFs. 2 Rabo. 1 semi finalist each.
Season before we had two Rabo finalists and 3 semi finalists. And that season Munster got 6 from 6 in the pools and Leinster didn't lose a game.

There I took it back two years and Rabo outperformed you. What a stupid point.
How is it a stupid point? I am correct.

Oh right now you're back to being Rabo, not individual countries. Picking and choosing when to be Rabo and when to be seperate unions again I see.

Edinburgh's semi final was a flash in a pan, shown quite clearly by the battering they took in the HC last season.

If we include the entire HC - the English have outperformed the Pro12 sides as a whole in terms of win rates.

You might say oh well - win rates are rubbish. That's because your record is below 50% overall.

alasbut100ofus I don't blame you for disliking win rates. If my side was that poor I would be angry too.

This is wonderful. Setting parameters then complaining about those parameters when someone else applies them.

by Scrumpy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:25 am

Mickado wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Mickado wrote:That’s what I expect As, because just changing the qualification process is not that big a deal.

I hope the Irish teams don’t join, whoever wins will have won a very devalued competition.

Maybe we could play a few touring sides now?
You mean like Ulster did when English teams didn't play?
Well by the time Ulster had won only 1 English team had won, and they did defeat Toulouse along the way. A French / English competition would be without 5 of the last 7 winners of the cup. Pretty clear which is of more value.

we all know rugby is a business and all the teams (owners) will eventually want to be where the money is whether it's a better Comp or not.

by Standulstermen Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:28 am

Why would Rabo sides field slightly weakened teams if there was no HEC though. The net result of the English and french going it alone would be that the such rest periods don't occur and the value of the Pro 12 product increases. From an ulster perspective we sold out more games last year than ever before.

Added to the fact that any exodus of players (1 from Ireland is hardly an exodus) can be got round by the unions looking less favourably on overseas players. I see no reason why the Rabo can't get stronger next year without an HEC

by Welshmushroom Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:28 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
Again you seem to make to reference to the clear advantages England have over their Celtic counterparts. Take your beloved Saracens for example. Your talking about having qualified 50% of your squad through residency. If Wales, Irish, Scottish & Italian sides didn't have strict foreign quotas we would be able to compete at a better standard as well. And Actually I think Saracens have been one of the better sides for fielding English players in recent years. London Irish and Sale by contrast are a total sham.

Also your salary caps are higher than ours. If you want a fairer system why are we not talking about restricting participating teams salary spends.

So to summarize our agreement then:

1. Equal share of profit based on league qualification per league (6 from each)

Counter agreement

2. Restriction of 90% Home country nationals with limit on residency qualified players & non qualified other internationals.
3. Salary Cap introduced of 4 million for all nominated players to participate in the HC.

Now that looks fairer to me. Good luck with that.
Good luck with having illegal racial quotas in club competitions.

Its not illegal. The IRFU, WRU, SRU, Italian Unions already have such policies in place. It focus on the fact that these teams are still entitled to field 15 All Blacks if they choose. However, the funding they receive from TV Revenue & funding would be withdrawn. So they are not given a choice but its not illegal.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:29 am

beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.

The Scarlets were a joke in the last HEC, and to be honest have either crashed out with sod all wins or made it into the KO stages (either Amlin or HEC), very hit or miss. However they would still qualify for the 'improved' HEC as they were 4th in the Rabo, so just taking the cream of the leagues won't stop teams being cack, and it may actually cause more teams to take the old fashioned french attitude of 'oh well we are out, lets focus on the league again', which last season I guess the Ospreys may have been better of doing.

by Mickado Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:30 am

Win rates are a red herring, the relative strenghts of any teams, leagues or competitions is also a red herring. It doesn't matter who's better, it matters who has more power. At the moment that's England and France because they have bigger audiences and more money.

That's it in a nutshell, if the new competition started with only Eng and Fra teams and the English teams didn't win the first 5 but made more dough than they would have in the HC, then it's a victory.

Any talk of actual rugby here is irrelevant.

I work for a big company, sometimes decisions are made which change how I have to do my job, sometimes they're terrible decisions and make my job harder and crappier, but does it matter to those who make the calls? No way, they see more money on the bottom line and I just have to suck it up. Life's not fair lads, the best rugby competition in the world is entering it's last year and that's just crappy, but that's the way it is.

"...greed is the knife and the scars run deep"

by brennomac Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:30 am

Even though I'm Irish, I've always had some sympathy with the English and French complaint that the Rabo teams are over-represented in the HC - though listening to Wray and McCafferty that sympathy is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

I don't have a problem with a reduction in the size of the HC to a 6-6-8 split between England, France and the Rabo - with the proviso that each Rabo country would be guaranteed one place. Within the Rabo, Ireland and Wales would have their top two teams, Scotland and Italy their top one, with the remaining two places based purely on position in the final table.

This would have meant that based on last year's Rabo league positions Ulster and Leinster would have the two guaranteed positions, Ospreys and Scarlets the two Welsh spots, with Glasgow and Treviso getting the Scottish and Italian guaranteed spots. After that the remaining positions based purely on league position would go to Munster and Connacht. OK, it would still mean four Irish teams in the HC, but two of this would have to earn their places by league position and there's absolutely no guarantee in future years Ireland would have four positions

The other teams who lose out - Cardifff, Dragons, Edinburgh and Zebre drop to the Amlin along with the 6 English and 6 French teams who don't qualify for the HC by virtue of being outside the top 6 in the Prem and T14.

The details of the proposed Anglo-French competition haven't emerged, but outside the big games between the top 3 or 4 in both countries, I can't see advertisers, sponsors etc getting over-excited by the likes Oyonnax-Bath or Grenoble-Newcastle.

Now the financial divvy-up is another matter altogether.....

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:30 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
Beshocked, you seem unable to distinguish unions from leagues. The Heineken Cup is a competition between sides from six unions, not three leagues.
Competitions between countries should be organised between countries - like the 6N.

Competions between clubs/regions should be organised by those clubs/regions.
Overseen by whom?

Overseen by a committee of those clubs. the IRB and unions would set the rules of the game obviously but they do not need to be involved in running competitions.

by XR Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:30 am

TBH, as a blues fan, i welcome the change and want our euro competition participation to be earned and not give because we finished above the dragons. If we make the rabo, or whatever it will be called after this season, a competative league where teams have to perform then it might give the regions a kick up the harris. Otherwise they risk losing a significant chunk of funding for a season by not being involved.

by beshocked Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:32 am

Welshmushroom share of profits is a big bone of contention.

I don't look at Edinburgh's squad and think wow - that's a home grown squad!

In a squad of 38 - 13 are foreign.

I think something like 75% of the squad being home grown could work.

In regards to salary cap I would like to see a level set throughout Europe that no team will go above. £4 million would mean we go down. Can't see that happening. Plus getting agreement from the French would be impossible.

Mickado you mean just Leinster and Munster. Both these sides are very good but they are only two teams compared to the 11 who qualify from the Pro12.

I have already said that 6 English sides have win rates around 60%.

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:34 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
The Scarlets were a joke in the last HEC, and to be honest have either crashed out with sod all wins or made it into the KO stages (either Amlin or HEC), very hit or miss. However they would still qualify for the 'improved' HEC as they were 4th in the Rabo, so just taking the cream of the leagues won't stop teams being cack, and it may actually cause more teams to take the old fashioned french attitude of 'oh well we are out, lets focus on the league again', which last season I guess the Ospreys may have been better of doing.

But would they have qualified from a competitive league in which teams were fighting for HEC places?

by Standulstermen Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:35 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
3 English QFs. 2 Rabo. 1 semi finalist each.
Season before we had two Rabo finalists and 3 semi finalists. And that season Munster got 6 from 6 in the pools and Leinster didn't lose a game.

There I took it back two years and Rabo outperformed you. What a stupid point.
How is it a stupid point? I am correct.

Oh right now you're back to being Rabo, not individual countries. Picking and choosing when to be Rabo and when to be seperate unions again I see.

Edinburgh's semi final was a flash in a pan, shown quite clearly by the battering they took in the HC last season.

If we include the entire HC - the English have outperformed the Pro12 sides as a whole in terms of win rates.

You might say oh well - win rates are rubbish. That's because your record is below 50% overall.

alasbut100ofus I don't blame you for disliking win rates. If my side was that poor I would be angry too.

This is wonderful. Setting parameters then complaining about those parameters when someone else applies them.

Its like its a subtle point. I genuinely don't know how he doesn't get it

I have no issue with 6,6,8 but there are issues there. What happens if the winners don't qualify? Does that not devalue the comp?

The reality is the Celtic team agreed to give the French and English a bigger share of the pot these issues with qualification would be no obstacle and no one at the PRL or LNR would give two hoots how Rabo sides qualified. It's about getting more money and nowt else.

by Standulstermen Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:37 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
The Scarlets were a joke in the last HEC, and to be honest have either crashed out with sod all wins or made it into the KO stages (either Amlin or HEC), very hit or miss. However they would still qualify for the 'improved' HEC as they were 4th in the Rabo, so just taking the cream of the leagues won't stop teams being cack, and it may actually cause more teams to take the old fashioned french attitude of 'oh well we are out, lets focus on the league again', which last season I guess the Ospreys may have been better of doing.
But would they have qualified from a competitive league in which teams were fighting for HEC places?

Given that they qualified 4th because we have playoffs and need to make the top four to progress further in the competition I don't see why not? The carrot is there for them whether it is the one you talk about or a different one

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:39 am

brennomac wrote:Even though I'm Irish, I've always had some sympathy with the English and French complaint that the Rabo teams are over-represented in the HC - though listening to Wray and McCafferty that sympathy is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

I don't have a problem with a reduction in the size of the HC to a 6-6-8 split between England, France and the Rabo - with the proviso that each Rabo country would be guaranteed one place. Within the Rabo, Ireland and Wales would have their top two teams, Scotland and Italy their top one, with the remaining two places based purely on position in the final table.

This would have meant that based on last year's Rabo league positions Ulster and Leinster would have the two guaranteed positions, Ospreys and Scarlets the two Welsh spots, with Glasgow and Treviso getting the Scottish and Italian guaranteed spots. After that the remaining positions based purely on league position would go to Munster and Connacht. OK, it would still mean four Irish teams in the HC, but two of this would have to earn their places by league position and there's absolutely no guarantee in future years Ireland would have four positions

The other teams who lose out - Cardifff, Dragons, Edinburgh and Zebre drop to the Amlin along with the 6 English and 6 French teams who don't qualify for the HC by virtue of being outside the top 6 in the Prem and T14.

The details of the proposed Anglo-French competition haven't emerged, but outside the big games between the top 3 or 4 in both countries, I can't see advertisers, sponsors etc getting over-excited by the likes Oyonnax-Bath or Grenoble-Newcastle.

Now the financial divvy-up is another matter altogether.....

I think if we are going to do the qualifying via league placings then in should be 6-6-6-2(HEC & Amlin Winners League's next placed team)

- 6 English, based on league positions
- 6 French, based on league positions
- 6 Rabo, minimum of one per nation, then the remain places to the highest finishing sides.

Also if we are going by league placings to work out inclusion then the pools should no longer be drawn on previous HEC performances, but be drawn on how teams finished in the leagues.

Pool 1 - English 1, French 5, Rabo 4, English 6
Pool 2 - English 2, French 6, Rabo 5, French 1
Pool 3 - English 3, French 4, Rabo 1, Rabo 6
Pool 4 - English 4, French 3, Rabo 2, HEC Winner
Pool 5 - English 5, French 2, Rabo 3, Amlin Winner

That way there is no lucky draw etc, as it will be on merit, and each League winner will get their leagues 'whipping boys' in their pool.

by Scrumpy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:39 am

"It's about getting more money and nowt else.."

Then ERC should have made sure they got the best TV deal they could, they failed so why should the English and French clubs continue with this farcical Comp and limit what money they can earn?

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:41 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.
I'd argue that at least 3 out of 6 qualifying teams from England are also not "top sides" as you put it. Rarely over recent season have more than 3 English sides ever made it to the qtr final stage
The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season.

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
Again you seem to make to reference to the clear advantages England have over their Celtic counterparts. Take your beloved Saracens for example. Your talking about having qualified 50% of your squad through residency. If Wales, Irish, Scottish & Italian sides didn't have strict foreign quotas we would be able to compete at a better standard as well. And Actually I think Saracens have been one of the better sides for fielding English players in recent years. London Irish and Sale by contrast are a total sham.

Also your salary caps are higher than ours. If you want a fairer system why are we not talking about restricting participating teams salary spends.

So to summarize our agreement then:

1. Equal share of profit based on league qualification per league (6 from each)

Counter agreement

2. Restriction of 90% Home country nationals with limit on residency qualified players & non qualified other internationals.
3. Salary Cap introduced of 4 million for all nominated players to participate in the HC.

Now that looks fairer to me. Good luck with that.
Good luck with having illegal racial quotas in club competitions.
Its not illegal. The IRFU, WRU, SRU, Italian Unions already have such policies in place. It focus on the fact that these teams are still entitled to field 15 All Blacks if they choose. However, the funding they receive from TV Revenue & funding would be withdrawn. So they are not given a choice but its not illegal.

Has that been tested in court? Also you suggested restrictions not based just on international qualification which MAY be legal but distinguishing between those who qualify by residency or by birth. That would definitely be illegal. Could you really have a situation where players were denied employment because they were born abroad even though though they are qualified to play for your country and may have become a citizen of that country.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:43 am

Standulstermen wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
beshocked wrote:The English sides have qualified by merit. If they don't perform during the league they don't get into the HC in the next season

Sale were the weakest English side last season in the HC - not in the HC this season.

You might say oh well - Exeter are weak - they managed 2 wins in a very tough group last season - I should add Scarlets got 0.

Quins last season got 6 wins in the pool stages.

The English outperformed all the Pro12 clubs in the HC last season.
The Scarlets were a joke in the last HEC, and to be honest have either crashed out with sod all wins or made it into the KO stages (either Amlin or HEC), very hit or miss. However they would still qualify for the 'improved' HEC as they were 4th in the Rabo, so just taking the cream of the leagues won't stop teams being cack, and it may actually cause more teams to take the old fashioned french attitude of 'oh well we are out, lets focus on the league again', which last season I guess the Ospreys may have been better of doing.
But would they have qualified from a competitive league in which teams were fighting for HEC places?
Given that they qualified 4th because we have playoffs and need to make the top four to progress further in the competition I don't see why not? The carrot is there for them whether it is the one you talk about or a different one

Yeah we would have qualified for the HEC as we deserved a place in the play-offs. But going by the 6-6-6 (Ulster, Leinster, Glasgow, Scarlets, Ospreys & Treviso) idea maybe Munster would have put in a bigger effort in the end of the season to steal the final Rabo HEC spot of the Ospreys?

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:44 am

Scrumpy wrote:"It's about getting more money and nowt else.."

Then ERC should have made sure they got the best TV deal they could, they failed so why should the English and French clubs continue with this farcical Comp and limit what money they can earn?

I agree. No one seems to be asking why PRL managed to get twice the money from BT that the ERC got from Sky just a couple of months earlier. Did the ERC even speak to anyone other than Sky?

by beshocked Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:46 am

standulstermen how likely do you think it is the winner won't qualify? Plus you could just take the approach of the HC winner getting a place instead of someone, instead of in addition.

Evidently the Celtic leagues haven't agreed hence the stand off. We don't know everything but it's evident that as things stand the English and French clubs are indeed working together.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:47 am

It's wonderful that the English and French clubs are overcome all of a sudden by an altruistic desire to improve the competitiveness of the Pro12. heart

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:47 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:"It's about getting more money and nowt else.."

Then ERC should have made sure they got the best TV deal they could, they failed so why should the English and French clubs continue with this farcical Comp and limit what money they can earn?
I agree. No one seems to be asking why PRL managed to get twice the money from BT that the ERC got from Sky just a couple of months earlier. Did the ERC even speak to anyone other than Sky?

Do we actually know this information for fact? No, because the PRL will not share how the split between domestic and European competition works

by Scrumpy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:50 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:"It's about getting more money and nowt else.."

Then ERC should have made sure they got the best TV deal they could, they failed so why should the English and French clubs continue with this farcical Comp and limit what money they can earn?
I agree. No one seems to be asking why PRL managed to get twice the money from BT that the ERC got from Sky just a couple of months earlier. Did the ERC even speak to anyone other than Sky?

Because PRL were trying to get the best deal for the clubs as any business would, ERC have become lazy and complacent and thought they were untouchable as they were in bed with Sky.

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:54 am

The other point rarely raised in all this is the current cost of the game... Does it really need to be so expensive?

Regional sides in Wales are lucky if they break even only about ten clubs in Europe make a profit.

The fan base for the game can not subsidise the economic situation that the wealthiest participants are pushing for.

by Scrumpy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:55 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Do we actually know this information for fact? No, because the PRL will not share how the split between domestic and European competition works

Why should they share that information with ERC?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 11:57 am

beshocked wrote:standulstermen how likely do you think it is the winner won't qualify? Plus you could just take the approach of the HC winner getting a place instead of someone, instead of in addition.

Evidently the Celtic leagues haven't agreed hence the stand off. We don't know everything but it's evident that as things stand the English and French clubs are indeed working together.

Not too sure that bit is right. Wasn't the line something like "The LNR will not be participating in a European competition if the English teams are not involved"? I am sure I have heard somewhere in the recent past "The LNR will not be participating in a European competition if the English teams, or Rabo teams, are not involved". So is this release just a bit of spin on that original line? Also if the tournament is meant to be 20 teams (apparently) then would a 10 Jeff, 10 T14 cup be any good? Surely that would be too easy to get into.

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:02 pm

maestegmafia wrote:The other point rarely raised in all this is the current cost of the game... Does it really need to be so expensive?

Regional sides in Wales are lucky if they break even only about ten clubs in Europe make a profit.

The fan base for the game can not subsidise the economic situation that the wealthiest participants are pushing for.

Why is the fan base so weak in Wales? Wales have great rugby tradition. Why do Gloucester get much bigger crowds than Cardiff in their respective leagues when Cardiff is a much bigger city. It did not used to be that way. It is not the fault of the English that Welsh regions do not attract crowds. Perhaps competitive rugby with HEC qualification at stake would help?

by broadlandboy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:11 pm

SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:13 pm

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

Fair enough, I am lazy (been to busy at work) and haven't fully read every thing on this thread. Doh

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:15 pm

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

SS is right, it is just the same statement re-hashed with the final part missing. It is Spin by the PRL prior to the next meeting... They have done the same prior to every meeting and kicked up a huge fuss when there were meetings that they were not invited to.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:19 pm

Broadland - yeah I have read the translation and it seems pretty much the same as the one I hear a while back. The only difference is the clubs requesting the LNR to start progressing with the new tournament, but it does not say there that they would be happy with a purely Fragnlo cub, but they want a cup with English, French and other nations. My reading of it seems more along the lines of 'We want the LNR/PRL to take the reigns of the ERC and run the competition ourselves, but we also want the Rabo nations to take part still".

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:21 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:The other point rarely raised in all this is the current cost of the game... Does it really need to be so expensive?

Regional sides in Wales are lucky if they break even only about ten clubs in Europe make a profit.

The fan base for the game can not subsidise the economic situation that the wealthiest participants are pushing for.
Why is the fan base so weak in Wales? Wales have great rugby tradition. Why do Gloucester get much bigger crowds than Cardiff in their respective leagues when Cardiff is a much bigger city. It did not used to be that way. It is not the fault of the English that Welsh regions do not attract crowds. Perhaps competitive rugby with HEC qualification at stake would help?

Not talking crowd attendances, that makes pretty much bugger all difference compared with the media revenues and private investment in rugby. What I am talking about is the amount the clubs are willing to escalate the cost of the game too. Dealing in players contracts at the cost of what some are being paid, Wilkinson on half a million euros a year, plus many similar figures being spent attracting players not just at Toulon, Racing Metro, Peripgnan, George Norths moving to Saints etc etc etc, it is incredibly expensive.

The game at club level as a whole is likely to suffer as there are too few clubs in Europe that can compete financially at that level.

by Scrumpy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:23 pm

What a mess!

This could have been avoided if the Rabo was willing to accept change and had a proper qualifying method for the HC, and if ERC had bothered to test the water to see if anyone else was willing to bid for HC rugby other than their good friends at Sky.

by Guest Wed 11 Sep 2013, 12:23 pm

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

I think some are interpreting from that statement what best suits their argument. The impression I have is that the French want a competition which is representative of all 6 nations, regardless if it is HEC or some new competition devised by PRL. If any of the Celts, or Italians, make clear that they will refuse any invitations then what do the French do?
The French appear to be saying that, rather than sharing the view of PRL, they will only participate in a competition which doesn't exclude PRL clubs.

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