Are England fans concerned about the possible effects leaving the HEC as we know it may have on their International teams?

With the recent comments of England's greatest modern day players like Jonny Wilkinson and Laurence Dallaglio opposing the decision by the PRL and LNR to try and disassemble the current Heineken Cup how do England fans feel about the possible negative effects this could have on their International team....?

There are extreme permutations should the worst case scenarios evolve, the RFU may have to refuse to select PRL club registered players? The breakaway Franglo club competition might see less English players involved and more foreigners similar to the Football Premiership. The competition vs the French might not see as much competition as the players were exposed to in the Heineken Cup.

These are all theoretical outcomes but they are realistic possibilities that as an England fan you have to consider. Some of Englands greatest players are seriously concerned and have been outspoken about the situation this week.

Laurence Dallaglio even works for BT Sport...


LD - "There's a responsibility to ensure the best players are playing each other on the biggest stage. That is especially the case in the build-up to a World Cup, as all but one have been won by the southern hemisphere. I believe the Heineken Cup is a wonderful competition that gives every country in Europe an edge that would be foolish to under-estimate."

JW - "It would be an incredible shame if we weren't able to compete in the Heineken Cup which is, effectively, the World Cup for European clubs. Having fought like mad while at Newcastle and twice managing to get into the Cup, and reaching a quarter-final in Paris and having a couple of goes here at Toulon, just makes you realise what an event it is for Northern Hemisphere rugby.
Going to the quarter-final, semis and the final with Toulon reminded me so much of that World Cup experience where you have media in the week and stadium visits. It's a fabulous thing and the more people who can experience it, the better. However, if there is unhappiness and unrest then it needs to be sorted out and long may the competition continue."



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2424427/Jonny-Wilkinson-makes-plea-save-Heineken-Cup-IRB-involved.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24134236


Of course this mat not be all doom and gloom, it may have a massively beneficial impact on England's prospects on the international stage. Though there has been little word from the current England coaching team or many senior players what are the positives that may impact English rugby?

Geoff Parling

“The Heineken Cup was definitely one of the reasons I came here. It’s the premier club competition and you want to play in the premier club competition,”

Or Could this move by the PRL be massively beneficial to English International efforts, could they become greater than the All Blacks ?

maestegmafia and his hyperbole go into overdrive again.

Do you have write in such an overblown and exaggerated manner?

Also, you really do cherry pick your arguments and quotes.

Even within Jonny's quote (assuming you got this right as you normally miquote people and risk libel) it says:

However, if there is unhappiness and unrest then it needs to be sorted out

That part being the important bit of all this.

Not overly concerned as they would still have the competition against the French to further stretch the competition provided by the league. In essence wouldn't this be weakening other nations players who are in the Rabo more as they would have neither the French or English teams?

I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

You really need to find a hobby Mae.
 
Lets face it Wales do alright without the HC!  

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

maestegmafia wrote:Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

where's that "clutching at straws" emoticon when you need it?

On a more serious note, I would be very sad if the HC ended up disappearing, though I doubt it will. I wouldn't worry too much about the consequences to the National team, simply because playing the French teams instead will still result in some very high level of competition...

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

I don't get why it would be weakened though Maesteg.

If their top teams play, and there is more money they will contract better players.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

where's that "clutching at straws" emoticon when you need it?

On a more serious note, I would be very sad if the HC ended up disappearing, though I doubt it will. I wouldn't worry too much about the consequences to the National team, simply because playing the French teams instead will still result in some very high level of competition...

There is also surely a concern that the French will make a U-turn at the last minute and stay in the Heineken Cup, especially if the LNR are not backed by the FFR which would reduce their competition.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

I don't get why it would be weakened though Maesteg.

If their top teams play, and there is more money they will contract better players.

Contracting better players can limit the exposure of English players and that would limit the ambitions of the national team.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

I don't get why it would be weakened though Maesteg.

If their top teams play, and there is more money they will contract better players.

But the better players they sign will be the welsh, Irish, scots, italian internationals whom the pro12 can no longer afford to keep, leaving fewer opportunities for homegrown english talent in the aviva. Can you now see how the national team would be affected?!

Scrumdown wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

I don't get why it would be weakened though Maesteg.

If their top teams play, and there is more money they will contract better players.

But the better players they sign will be the welsh, Irish, scots, italian internationals whom the pro12 can no longer afford to keep, leaving fewer opportunities for homegrown english talent in the aviva.  Can you now see how the national team would be affected?!

I do, but surely the RFU and FFRU will have a say in it before it is approved?

Scrumdown wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

I don't get why it would be weakened though Maesteg.

If their top teams play, and there is more money they will contract better players.

But the better players they sign will be the welsh, Irish, scots, italian internationals whom the pro12 can no longer afford to keep, leaving fewer opportunities for homegrown english talent in the aviva.  Can you now see how the national team would be affected?!

As well as the usual Kiwis, Aussies, South Sea Islanders and South Africans...!

maestegmafia wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

I don't get why it would be weakened though Maesteg.

If their top teams play, and there is more money they will contract better players.

But the better players they sign will be the welsh, Irish, scots, italian internationals whom the pro12 can no longer afford to keep, leaving fewer opportunities for homegrown english talent in the aviva.  Can you now see how the national team would be affected?!

As well as the usual Kiwis, Aussies, South Sea Islanders and South Africans...!

Ah, that old (spurious) chestnut.

Interestingly, Peter Jackson's article in The Rugby Paper outlined just how far the 'Celtic' nations are going with Project players and taking advantage of residency qualifications. I wonder who is struggling for the home grown talent?

Before the usual suspects drag this into the 'Celts suck, no, English suck' tired argument I'd like to make a serious point.

A Franglo league would provide the PRL and LNR with more money, the privately owned clubs would also benefit financially, the English clubs would struggle massively early on, especially when playing in France in front of very little away support.

Before you know it English lower end clubs will send 2nd teams to the top French clubs, in order to challenge at home (They have done in the HC). This will equal less top quality matches per potential EQ player.

Even if the English clubs were given cash injections to compete, they will sign more foreign players and again offer EQ players less quality gametime!

Too much money and not enough union input = detriment to the union every time!

If then the power league that is the Franglo manage to tempt SA rugby into joining the worlds power league...

At some point the PRL enjoying the monetary gains, will realise it's not about throwing money at new playing staff but keeping the playing staff fresh and focused on club rugby only...

No, I'm not concerned.

To me English rugby is the club scene and international rugby pulls they best players from there to see how they do. I'm glad the RFU sorted the deal to give them more time with the players and I want England to win. But I don't see club rugby's purpose being to support international rugby.

If we leave the HEC and even if everyone else goes to form a super-duper global cup, it doesn't bother me. Even if it meant that England came 5th in 6 nations and finally lost to Italy, Samoa, etc

HammerofThunor wrote:No, I'm not concerned.

To me English rugby is the club scene and international rugby pulls they best players from there to see how they do. I'm glad the RFU sorted the deal to give them more time with the players and I want England to win. But I don't see club rugby's purpose being to support international rugby.

If we leave the HEC and even if everyone else goes to form a super-duper global cup, it doesn't bother me. Even if it meant that England came 5th in 6 nations and finally lost to Italy, Samoa, etc

I'm not sure if this is the biggest case of Niaiveness or snobbery Ive ever heard!

Care to explain either? First one I can probably work out. Not sure about snobbery.

HammerofThunor wrote:Care to explain either? First one I can probably work out. Not sure about snobbery.

Your quite happy to see your national team become wooden spoon contenders! Does this mean you aren't interested in the international game because you think league quality is better (niaivity) or because the international scene just isn't as 'rugby' as the precious club scene (snobbery)?

I've personally never understood what I suspect is the southerner view of the game? To handpick which elements to like and dislike. Rugby as a sport is unique in which once your a fan your a fan, from mini's through local club, pro club and your nation, it really is a surprise to me when people are happy for one element to struggle!

Well I'm from the north midlands so make of that what you will (been called northern and southern). First got into rugby in Wales and it was all about international (didn't see any English club except AW which I really liked). There is no conscious decision to preferring international to club. I don't even have a specific club I support. I just enjoy watching the premiership more than anything else. Why? not sure. But on he quality I've seen some completely Poopie international rugby games and some fantastic domestic games. And same the other way. But 'quality' doesn't really come into it.

I just think International rugby is a bonus not the point of rugby. I also expect the RFU to do their absolute best with their resources and want England to win. But I think we have more than enough International rugby (well maybe not quite more but at the upper level).

Maybe it's because I'm from a football area but the only football I really watched was international and didn't support any clubs.

So no, I don't see myself as naive or a snob.

Oh and finally I think one of the reasons I prefer Premiership is for all the English players that are involved. If that changed to some thing like the French levels it might change.

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I can't see why leaving the Heineken Cup would impact the national team.

Why would it?

I listed a few reasons above Bill. But basically they could be playing in a weakened competition with some of Europe's top clubs missing. Another thought is that there may be Union implied ramifications should the unions decide not to support the split from the current set up.

Naaah... I'm pretty sure all the French will be there.

If Welsh and Scottish teams are poor in Europe then it won't impact English clubs that much right?

In essence without the 3 Irish sides, Munster, Leinster and Ulster the rest of the sides are English and French.

Will it be negative... overall quality will be down, but not by much.

not compared to how much it will impact Irish, Welsh and Scottish clubs to be honest.

Financially and rugby wise the Pro12 teams will suffer the most.

To answer the question in th etitle.


No.

Scrumpy wrote:Lets face it Wales do alright without the HC!  

 

maesteg

Given so many of your players now play in France and England.... shouldn't you be worried too???

fa0019 wrote:maesteg

Given so many of your players now play in France and England.... shouldn't you be worried too???

How many is so many?

fa0019 wrote:If Welsh and Scottish teams are poor in Europe then it won't impact English clubs that much right?

In essence without the 3 Irish sides, Munster, Leinster and Ulster the rest of the sides are English and French.

Will it be negative... overall quality will be down, but not by much.

not compared to how much it will impact Irish, Welsh and Scottish clubs to be honest.

Financially and rugby wise the Pro12 teams will suffer the most.

Become less familiar with the opposition perhaps?

Will fans really pay to watch a 'Franglo' competition or would they just rather stick to their domestic league? Considering that it even goes ahead btw, which it probably won't because of the French.

Your last point... Well that depends, the WRU can subsidise the Regions. The extra funding will come from extra international games, that's just one proposal. There would be plenty of time for that with no Euro comp. Also, we could reboot the Anglo-Welsh competition and maybe we'd see it as good as it once was.

I'm not worried because I still believe there will be a European competition next season. The organisation who runs it? Not sure I care as long as there is proper governance.

On the other hand, I must admit the highly parochial misfits on all sides are doing there best to make my prediction false. I will be highly perturbed if the so-called stewards of our game let us down. And, to be clear, this includes everyone, all sides.

The Saint wrote:

fa0019 wrote:If Welsh and Scottish teams are poor in Europe then it won't impact English clubs that much right?

In essence without the 3 Irish sides, Munster, Leinster and Ulster the rest of the sides are English and French.

Will it be negative... overall quality will be down, but not by much.

not compared to how much it will impact Irish, Welsh and Scottish clubs to be honest.

Financially and rugby wise the Pro12 teams will suffer the most.

Become less familiar with the opposition perhaps?

Will fans really pay to watch a 'Franglo' competition or would they just rather stick to their domestic league? Considering that it even goes ahead btw, which it probably won't because of the French.

Your last point... Well that depends, the WRU can subsidise the Regions. The extra funding will come from extra international games, that's just one proposal. There would be plenty of time for that with no Euro comp. Also, we could reboot the Anglo-Welsh competition and maybe we'd see it as good as it once was.

I think that would end up on the scrap heap come the next renewal, especially if the Franglo is a 'grind it out' style as I am expected. The Jeff sides will not want to be getting battered in their league, and in their cup, only to face fresh rested taffs willing to making them run all around the feild too.

SS, only a select few English teams were able to put their resoures and efforts into that competition. Surely it's another tell-tale sign that should the Franglo competition go ahead that it won't take off.

The IRB, as well as national unions, seem to be very much against the new competition proposed by the English and French clubs. If the RFU backtracks and decides to support the English clubs, will the next world cup still go ahead in England?

optimist wrote:The IRB, as well as national unions, seem to be very much against the new competition proposed by the English and French clubs. If the RFU backtracks and decides to support the English clubs, will the next world cup still go ahead in England?

The bigger issue is IF the clubs go ahead without the RFU backing, would the RFU still be able to use the likes of Welford Road or Kingsholm for the RWC, or would the poop-storm that would have occured mean the RFU would be desperately trying to seak other venues?

I am worried but then i am always worried.

Triangulation wrote:I am worried but then i am always worried.

stop worrying

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The bigger issue is IF the clubs go ahead without the RFU backing(1), would the RFU still be able to use the likes of Welford Road (2) or Kingsholm for the RWC, or would the poop-storm that would have occured mean the RFU would be desperately trying to seak other venues?

1) clubs will not go ahead without RFU backing. Certainly not before RWC 2015.
2) Welford Rd is not an RWC15 venue.