Can anyone help me with Vettel?

John just wrote a perfectly accurate post on the "Singapore" thread and it prompted me to reply, but rather than derail a thread I thought it better to separate. He wrote:

Who cares, reality is Vettel will ease to this years title. You can say Newey this, Newey that but the record books will just say a 4 time world champion. The competition haven't been good enough......again. Another Vettel podium this weekend & we can pretty much close the book on this season. I'm already just looking forward to next year, think the regulations will inevitably mix it up & probably the only way of halting Newey/Vettel is an inferior & uncompetitive Renault engine.

He's right. Everyone knows that the RB is an incredible car, but when that uncontentious observation becomes a stick with which to beat what I believe to be incredible driver it gets silly. You'd think the greats won titles in poor cars, or that they didn't chase the best car from team to team.

Personally I'm still a bit oblivious about why people don't like or rate Vettel. I find patriotism irrational, so I don't have that problem, and he seems a nice lad with a funny sense of humour. He seems to have provided great evidence of what he adds to the car; he attacks well yet makes very few serious errors since his stock car approach to the 2010 season (a bit of a campaign began to make out he cracks under pressure, but it's based on the thinnest of evidence when everyone makes an error or two. He seems to make fewer every year, even under a lot of heat in 2012).

I like his attitude to competition; his comments after Webber disobeyed orders at Silverstone in 2011  to back off him were unique. He said he didn't mind, he welcomed competition and understood Mark wanted to race, and he liked that too. Y'know, he was how old at the time? That's pretty grown up stuff from what was still in these terms a kid.

He won legitimate spurs in a poor car early on, something Hamilton didn't (but doesn't diminish his status in my eyes). Still, it's a good counter to the idea he can only pilot a superior car.

Is it really the finger? Seriously? Like no great sportsmen do this?


Anyone help?

Ok - this is my take on it:

Vettel is a class driver there is no doubt. He's had by far the best 'all round' car over the last few years but you still have to deliver and he has - consistently and that certainly puts him in the top band of drivers. However when you look at other sports greatness is usually defined by rivalries with the best abilities going head to head - Ali/Fraiser, Borg/Mcenroe, Coe/Ovett and even F1's very own Senna/Prost, and so in a sport where success or lack of it depends massively on the car then for me its more important than ever that a driver beats at least one other WDC using the same equipment in order to achieve greatness in a driving sense. For the bottom line is that despite collecting four titles in as many years, in terms of pure driving ability Vettel has only proven that he's better than Mark Webber.

Perfectly logical, in terms of what can pass for proof. That said, neither has Lewis proven anything more, not by the results / car measure. Not sure any of them prove much on that basis, nor have many ever.

However, fair enough. Your comment is a million miles away from the resentful conspiracy theories some put out, or the sullen claims of magical luck properties.

Well the one thing Hamilton has done apart from winning the WDC is beat two WDCs in the same equipment - one of them being his rookie season. He would've also took on Vettel at Red Bull in a heartbeat if given the opportunity at the end of last season and even though that wasnt to be is still currently up against someone extremely quick. By contrast you get the feeling that Vettel is more concerned with the record books and is more like a boxer who prefers to hand pick opponents as a means to an end. Of course thats just my viewpoint and there are many who will favour Vettels relentlessness and four titles. F1 is very subjective and you just pays your money and takes your choice.

Well I've never seen a driver step away from a great car to find out how to make it tougher! And at 26 where's the rush?

I've not heard any "Vettel hatred" there though, it's that which I don't understand.

bogbrush wrote:Well I've never seen a driver step away from a great car to find out how to make it tougher! And at 26 where's the rush?

That's a fair point but lets see a rival WDC in the other car.

SteveG wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well I've never seen a driver step away from a great car to find out how to make it tougher! And at 26 where's the rush?

That's a fair point but lets see a rival WDC in the other car.

Your in for a long wait I fear.

Vettel will continue to drive on easy street, breaking records left, right & centre until the RB bubble bursts. That's what any driver in his position would do. It would be funny though, if RB are uncompetitive next season, doesn't win the title & then he suddenly jumps ship for 2015 with one year still left on his deal.

Look at the harsh realities folks.

Red Bull acquired one the best car designers the business has ever seen in 2006 at a time when it was still a fledgling team. The first car he really designed came in 2007 and was a competitive car but was blighted by unreliability and was not as well-funded team as others at that time. By 2009 the Red Bull had greatly improved its reliability and was one of the fastest cars on the grid (apart from Brawn) and Vettel and Webber had a pretty competitive scrap for points. In 2010 we saw the real beginning of domination of the Red Bull and again Vettel edged out Webber. Red Bull won almost half of the races with 14 of the 19 pole positions going to them. On into 2011 and Red Bull won around 60% of the races with 18 of the 19 pole positions going to them - Vettel winning the title in a canter with Webber nowhere near his level. Last year was not such a dominant force but still strong enough to be the champion manufacturer. They won around 35% of the races and had eight of 20 pole positions (still the joint most in the season with McLaren). Again Webber was not on the same level as Vettel.

Now it fully depends on your view point who you put the success down to at Red Bull. Some will say it is Vettel and some say it is down to the master designer Newey. I say Newey is a proven talent as can be seen by his previous record in F1. World titles at Williams and McLaren before coming to Red Bull. Vettel cannot hold that claim (yet) and until he does win prolifically away from Newey's designed cars then that doubt will remain for me.

The Red Bull is just too damned fast. I'd go as far as to say if an equally young,fast driver had signed for Red Bull a few years ago instead of Vettel (say Rosberg) then we'd be looking at the same set of results for him. Things fell perfectly for Vettel and he has reaped rich rewards but that sort of thing happens in all sports. Until I see Vettel in another team driving a car with more limitations then can we truly judge how good he is?

Agree with what you said. Until 2015, when he leaves or is joined by a recognised equal within the sport at the same team, then I can't judge him.

What I don't want to happen, which Martin Brundle was saying today, is where we get a transition year under the new engines in 2014, where one engine supplier blows away the field and we get a kind of messed up season. It could happen. We could get a kind of mclaren early 90's dominance with an engine and what I dont want to happen is for that to be the reason Vettel doesnt win another title or cant defend it properly. do u see where i'm coming from? I dont want the regulation change to be the sole reason RB dont win the title or are suddenly off pace. The next world champion after Vettel is someone who needs to showcase they can race and beat Vettel in near enough equal machinery. Thats what i want to see, not someone win a title in 2014 and vettel to be struggling mid-pack with his renault engine.

of course, it could be even worse. the renault could steel a march on the others.....imagine that.

We have seen him drive limited cars.

He became the youngest driver ever to gain a point when driving for Sauber aged 19.

He drove well for Torro Rosso in 2007 & 2008, winning a race aged 21 (a record) in 2008 from pole (sounds familiar).

It hasn't all been Red Bull when it comes to setting records for young age achievements. Why is this disregarded?

Sorry but a random win for a lesser team doesn't prove anything otherwise do we sing the praises of Pastor Maldonado for his heroics last year. Likewise promising drives for lesser teams are nothing rare in F1.

If Vettel moved to Ferrari or Mercedes or McLaren and out-performed Alonso or Hamilton or Button then that would begin to convince me. However, at Red Bull he is in a protective cocoon - in the fastest car with a lesser driver as his team-mate.

Funny thing is those "random" events (not just one win, but it coming  from pole and backed up by plenty of other achievements) were enough to convince almost everyone else in the sport. I haven't heard the same about Maldonado. Bear in mind he'd often shone in practice, frequently setting fastest times in that car, which convinced most he was a raw talent (albeit at that time very much inclined to not finishing).

However this is useful; writing his exceptional early career off as equal to the one Maldonado win is the first post that shows what I'm looking for; the wilful determination to misrepresent him (whether it be in performances, luck, bias, whatever).

What I don't understand yet is why that happens. It's more than ambivalence, it's firm negativity. What's the reason for that?

The difference between Maldonado and Vettel? Maldonado has not driven a Red Bull-esque car in F1. He has proven he is a fast driver though with that win as Vettel did at Torro Rosso. My reservation is painting him as an all-time great until I see him challenged in ways other all-time greats have been challenged. Great driver yes - all-time great? This jury member is undecided.

So the only difference between Vettel and !Maldonado is their car. Hmm, that's pretty much the kind of stuff I'm looking for.  You miss / ignore / don't know about the rest of their careers? Which is it?

The question in this thread isn't Vettel, it's why some feel compelled to misrepresent him; to understand what their problem with him is. Are you willing to say why?

No reason why it just is how I rate sportsmen in their field. If you are looking for reasons in general why others are disparaging towards him perhaps it is because with his and Red Bull's domination F1 has become boring for want of a better word or non-competitive. No wheel to wheel racing at the front (to any great degree) and inevitability of the Red Bull pace with nobody within Red Bull being up to a top standard to challenge Vettel. Lets be honest the Red Bull has been by far the quickest and most consistent and reliable car in F1 for the last four years. It has had consistent pace and bullet-proof reliability - a damned powerful tool in any competent driver's armoury.

It hasn't always been the quickest, and it hasn't always been reliable (Silverstone the other month), but that's an oversight I'd expect.

More baffling is your assessment that recent seasons lack competitive racing. I guess you skipped two of the last three seasons? 2010 had a phenomenal conclusion and 2012 has been described as the most exciting season for many years - remember how the first seven races were shared between seven different drivers, an unprecedented event? No? I'm not surprised........

And "competent". Well, poor Mark Webber!

Well I'd hardly put Webber as top standard. By his own admission over the last year or two he has fallen out of love with F1 and lacked motivation. Excuses? I think so but he is not in the upper echelons of drivers if we are being honest.

As for my first point - I will put it another way - there was an air of inevitability about the eventual outcomes in those 'closer' seasons - well at least from me there was. And yes those seven spread winners were more down to reg changes/tyre changes and teams having to think out of the box. Once the season settled down after those initial races Red Bull took control winning a third of the races remaining. If you wish I will put together stats for you to prove how strong Red Bull has been over the last four years - no other team comes close.

Inevitability in the outcome of 2010? Seriously??? As for the 7 winners, facts are facts and there was competitive racing. Whether it's tyres, regs, weather or favourite colour changes nothing. There was turmoil, you said there was no racing.

It's ok on the stats, FIA do that.

Yes and the facts was there was competitive racing at the start of the season (five different team winners) but once teams got to grips with the regs etc the status quo was resumed. The only team competitive was McLaren but they had reliability issues. As for 2010 yes it was closer but still dig deeper and the stats prove Red Bull were the quickest with Ferrari their chief contenders. Red Bull 8 race wins Ferrari 5. Red Bull 15 pole positions Ferrari 2. Red Bull fastest laps 6 Ferrari fastest laps 5. Red Bull 5 DNF'S Ferrari 2 DNF's. That last stat tells us alone that even with better reliability Ferrari finished over 100 points adrift of Red Bull in the championship.

Bogbrush and Craig - always wheel to wheel posting. If only F1 was as competitive.

SteveG wrote:Ok - this is my take on it:

Vettel is a class driver there is no doubt. He's had by far the best 'all round' car over the last few years but you still have to deliver and he has - consistently and that certainly puts him in the top band of drivers. However when you look at other sports greatness is usually defined by rivalries with the best abilities going head to head - Ali/Fraiser, Borg/Mcenroe, Coe/Ovett and even F1's very own Senna/Prost, and so in a sport where success or lack of it depends massively on the car then for me its more important than ever that a driver beats at least one other WDC using the same equipment in order to achieve greatness in a driving sense. For the bottom line is that despite collecting four titles in as many years, in terms of pure driving ability Vettel has only proven that he's better than Mark Webber.

Well, I was going to reply myself but Steve hit the nail on the head for me.

I will also admit to a dislike of Vettel for his unsportsmanlike conduct (taking himself and Webber out of the race in Turkey, ignoring team orders and overtaking Webber in Malaysia and generally displaying open petulance when things haven't gone his way).

A great driver - undoubtedly. A great sportsman - no.

Same reasons I never liked Schumacher.

I am not denying he is a great driver - that speaks for itself but I would not place him in an all-time great bracket until I see him tested out of his comfort zone.

SteveG wrote:Bogbrush and Craig - always wheel to wheel posting. If only F1 was as competitive.

Someone ought to make a movie about those two.

SteveG wrote:Bogbrush and Craig - always wheel to wheel posting. If only F1 was as competitive.

Ah but it's not really. I'm in a much better car.  

dyrewolfe wrote:I will also admit to a dislike of Vettel for his unsportsmanlike conduct (taking himself and Webber out of the race in Turkey, ignoring team orders and overtaking Webber in Malaysia and generally displaying open petulance when things haven't gone his way).

A great driver - undoubtedly. A great sportsman - no.

Same reasons I never liked Schumacher.

I guess you don't like Webber either, for his similar offence at Silverstone 2012.

And as for disliking open petulance, I guess you must despise Alonso with a passion.

Worth a note on that topic of how much Hamilton has pulled his act together; he's cut the whining right out and it raises his stature big time in my book, and I wager he'll attract more loyalty from the team as a result. I actually think Vettel us pretty good on this too (like over Mark in 2012) but he's not had much to moan about!

bogbrush wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:I will also admit to a dislike of Vettel for his unsportsmanlike conduct (taking himself and Webber out of the race in Turkey, ignoring team orders and overtaking Webber in Malaysia and generally displaying open petulance when things haven't gone his way).

A great driver - undoubtedly. A great sportsman - no.

Same reasons I never liked Schumacher.

I guess you don't like Webber either, for his similar offence at Silverstone 2012.

And as for disliking open petulance, I guess you must despise Alonso with a passion.

Worth a note on that topic of how much Hamilton has pulled his act together; he's cut the whining right out and it raises his stature big time in my book, and I wager he'll attract more loyalty from the team as a result. I actually think Vettel us pretty good on this too (like over Mark in 2012) but he's not had much to moan about!

Webber's Silverstone incident was a response to his treatment by Red Bull...leading to his "Not bad for a No.2 driver" comment. Plus, for the most part he's quite a likeable guy, straight talking and doesn't try to gloss over incidents...unlike his team mate.

Must admit I didn't like Alonso for a while (yes, during his ill-fated spell at McLaren), but his conduct is generally decent, both on and off track and while I'm still not overly keen on him, I've come to respect him.

As for Hamilton, I think a lot of his issues, stemmed from the fact he was having problems with his personal life, which led to him not being able to focus on his driving. Plus he'd had 2 seasons driving one of the best cars on the grid, to suddenly having to cope with a dog of a car. Since then, he's got his personal life back on track, got himself a new team and I think his increasing experience, both on and off the track has seen him mature quite a lot, both as a driver and a person.

By contrast Vettel has rarely had too much to whine about, as you mentioned (nothing like the problems of his rivals). Imagine if he'd had anything like the problems Webber has had to deal with...

I agree on Hamilton but I'm shocked that you can gloss over Alonso's behaviour regarding Ferrari. More than De Montezemolo could! Perhaps your issues with him were really just Hamilton-centric?

Webber did what he did at Silverstone, he's not a child. Funny enough the one person who was not critical of him in the least was Vettel! Imagine if that had been some other drivers - they might have taken their surfboard home.

It's a bit unfair on Vettel (and yesterday's booing was pathetic  ) but I agree with some on here. I can't be convinced about his greatness until he does it away from Newey or his rival teams up their game

I still maintain that an 'on' Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi are as good or better

But you can only admire the way he dominates and I certainly think he's worthy of best ever driver talk

Booing is out of order in my opinion without a doubt.

He has a supreme car and uses it to great effect - a deserved multiple world champion but an all-time great? Not for me - yet. Call me a sceptic.

what most people have said. Similar to Schumacher, the guy's dominating the sport to the extent it's becoming (has become?) dull. Unfortunately F1 is a lot about the car. If a car is way ahead of the field (overall) that means the only guy who can challenge him is his team-mate. If said team-mate (Webber, Barichello) is uncompetitive it makes for a boring spectacle.

F1 is about exciting racing (or should be). You can't get excited about a guy racing away down the track and building up a 10 second lead in four laps, however technically brilliant his driving is, unlike say tennis where Federer purring around the court is easy enough to admire even if it's not a competitive match. in F1 people need excitement to make it interesting.

His initial pettiness didn't help his cause (2010 whenever he crashed into someone it was their fault - not helped by his team always backing him). As BB points out Hamilton has improved beyond recognition in that regard, Vettel has certainly done better the last couple of years, but as BB says hasn't had anything to complain about.

Don't like Alonso either, his list of antics is much worse than Vettel's, and the one year he had a competitive team-mate his behaviour was disgraceful. He's also got one of his team-mates to crash into a wall to let him win...

My favourite two drivers at the moment are Hamilton and Raikonene, by a mile. Hamilton because he always gives his all, is an aggressive racer (makes for excitement), doesn't whinge anymore, and is prepared to face new challenges (Button at McLaren, moving to Mercedes, etc.). Raikonen because he doesn't seem to give a d*mn as long as he's racing (going without pay, brilliant ).

I like Vettel partly for his sense of humour. He's dry, wry, and very natural. Interesting to see all the insiders last weekend saying how many of the public don't get it. Seems obvious to me he's a decent guy, no silly baggage and doesn't think he's a medieval warrior.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Booing is out of order in my opinion without a doubt.

Well, he`ll get a weekend off from the booing in Korea......nobody there.

Disagree with the booing - but the FIA/SKY have changed this sport into 'show racing' for the playstation generation. On the track we have a tyre lottery and DRS and off the track we have the naff podium interviews. Gone are the formal press conferences where drivers could collect their thoughts and give a proper insight into their race (they still happen but are never broadcast here). If F1 wants to go all X-factor then expect an X-factor crowd.

Actually agree with you steveG & your x-factor analogy. The fans have a right to their opinion & views, without them the sport is nothing.

Sport is huge, and much more global then it was previously. Sports are having to outdo each other to get recognition in certain areas. different football leagues battle against each other for popularity in countries, which is why Spain play crazy early sunday games, to be prime time in the far east. And it seems that F1 is going the same way to make it sportsentertainment.

bogbrush wrote:I like Vettel partly for his sense of humour. He's dry, wry, and very natural. Interesting to see all the insiders last weekend saying how many of the public don't get it. Seems obvious to me he's a decent guy, no silly baggage and doesn't think he's a medieval warrior.

Oh, he can be perfectly charming when he wants to be (as also evidenced by his appearance on Top Gear). Trouble is, he has quite an unpleasant flip side and is only decent as long as it suits him and no points/trophies are at stake.

Not sure what baggage a driver could have when they've had such a relatively easy career since entering F1 (compared to most of their peers), not to mention a manager who seems to have more control over the team than its owner or principal.

Puzzled by your last comment. Who thinks they're a medieval warrior?

SteveG wrote:Disagree with the booing - but the FIA/SKY have changed this sport into 'show racing' for the playstation generation. On the track we have a tyre lottery and DRS and off the track we have the naff podium interviews. Gone are the formal press conferences where drivers could collect their thoughts and give a proper insight into their race (they still happen but are never broadcast here). If F1 wants to go all X-factor then expect an X-factor crowd.

Well said...mostly.

Not sure how much is down to the FIA - the more recent regulation changes have simply been attempts to overcome the single biggest problem that was threatening to kill the sport as a spectacle and a competition (lack of / inability to overtake). There was also still an element of a "tyre lottery" back when Bridgestone and Michelin were suppliers. Not to the same extent, but its not like its a new phenomenon.

While I can't say I like the element of artificiality KERS, DRS and the new tyre rules have introduced into F1, the measures have at least achieved their intended goal - to make overtaking more commonplace.

I think the bigger problem lies with Sky's "showbiz" approach. I suppose you can't blame them in trying to attract the biggest audience possible, given they paid a stonking amount of money for the broadcasting rights. That said I agree it seems their shows are more targeted at the "Playstation Generation" and less cerebral football fans.

One new "innovation" I really could do without is the thermal imaging cameras that show how hot/cool the tyres are. Do we really need to be able to see this? I know I don't. Really doesn't add anything to races for me.

That thermal imaging camera is great for a designer or engineer, but not for us. Obviously, going around a corner is going to have a higher load on one side of the car than the other & coming out of a slow corner, where rear-traction is everything, is obviously going to 'light' up the rears. Doesn't really do anything for me either.

As for seeing more or less of things, I'd rather hear more radio messages, less replays after two or three laps of the grid start, which last for about five minutes when all the action is happening & finally less 'celeb' spotting of them looking bored or dis-interested in the pit-garages.

I want more interviews with Bernie. The guy's a genius.

Seriously, the thermal imaging is interesting as a curiosity. It's not like they do half an hour of it.

What struck me about the thermal imaging was just how much the tyre temperature changed thru one corner never mind a lap. It kind of brings home the size and complexity of the challenge of thermal degradation faced by the teams.

As for the Vettel discussion, it was quite interesting listening to FP1 & the general view on his ability, standing, reliance on Newey & the booing controversy today. Also, Vettel's comments about 'balls in pool' has seemed to enrage Rosberg & Button. He doesn't help himself does he? & this will only go to annoy fans of the sport, who clearly see Newey as the real difference maker.

Another thing that is worth considering is the small fact of who this Red Bull was developed for? Seb's first year at Red Bull was in a car not specifically designed to meet his needs and Webber was competitive but once Seb won his first title it is only logical to presume that the car was built to suit his driving skills ie if he preferred more down-force the car would be designed to fit that need and similar in other ways. If his team-mate was not so keen on the same type of car that Seb wanted then he'd just need to make do and change the set-up of the car to get as much pace out of it as possible. I suppose it is akin to getting a suit to fit and so it will fit Seb much better than Webber.

John wrote:As for the Vettel discussion, it was quite interesting listening to FP1 & the general view on his ability, standing, reliance on Newey & the booing controversy today. Also, Vettel's comments about 'balls in pool' has seemed to enrage Rosberg & Button. He doesn't help himself does he? & this will only go to annoy fans of the sport, who clearly see Newey as the real difference maker.

Do you think he cares? Anyone who'd allow their emotions to override their logic isn't worth fretting about.

The car suited Webber for the first half of 2010 then Vettel after the break.

Vettels a pretty likeable guy tbh, I much prefer him to dictator Alonso or bipolar Hamilton. Everybody hates a winner is all.

dyrewolfe wrote:

bogbrush wrote:I like Vettel partly for his sense of humour. He's dry, wry, and very natural. Interesting to see all the insiders last weekend saying how many of the public don't get it. Seems obvious to me he's a decent guy, no silly baggage and doesn't think he's a medieval warrior.

Oh, he can be perfectly charming when he wants to be (as also evidenced by his appearance on Top Gear). Trouble is, he has quite an unpleasant flip side and is only decent as long as it suits him and no points/trophies are at stake.

Not sure what baggage a driver could have when they've had such a relatively easy career since entering F1 (compared to most of their peers), not to mention a manager who seems to have more control over the team than its owner or principal.

Puzzled by your last comment. Who thinks they're a medieval warrior?

Alonso has this ridiculous idea of calling himself a Samurai. He even signs himself as that on twitter.

Never seen the unpleasant side of Vettel. Seem the competitive Bar Steward, but he'd hardly be 3-4 times a World Champ without that.

bogbrush wrote:
Alonso has this ridiculous idea of calling himself a Samurai. He even signs himself as that on twitter.

Wow - I never knew (but then I don't use Twitter). Could understand if it were someone like Kobayashi, but Alonso...?

bogbrush wrote:
Never seen the unpleasant side of Vettel. Seem the competitive Bar Steward, but he'd hardly be 3-4 times a World Champ without that.

...and the car...don't forget the car...

Oh, he'd be there or thereabouts if they all had the same car.

That car cuts two ways you know; on the one hand he's unbeatable in it, on the other some don't credit him with his contribution. Not sure he's bothered though, it's us lot left disputing it who get the fallout.

I think Vettel is a very likeable guy. The ability to be funny and make jokes in a language which is not your mother tongue is not just evidence of humour but of intelligence also.

The disobeying of team orders and comments like the "ball in the pool" one leave perhaps leave him open for criticism but it feels a bit like complaining that a dog barks. He's a top level, competitive F1 driver - are we expecting a submissive, retiring personality?

And of course he's brilliant. He hardly ever makes a mistake, hardly ever fails to execute a strategy. He gets of so lightly for disobeying team orders because Red Bull know that, even though they have the best car, having Vettel driving that car is where their success is coming from.

bogbrush wrote:Oh, he'd be there or thereabouts if they all had the same car.

That car cuts two ways you know; on the one hand he's unbeatable in it, on the other some don't credit him with his contribution. Not sure he's bothered though, it's us lot left disputing it who get the fallout.

Can't argue with that!

Well, Ross Brawn said F1 is 90% about the car and 10% about the driver.

Its not just Vettel - there are very few F1 title winners who didn't have the best, or one of the best cars.

On top of that the current RB isn't just the best car, its the best by some margin...so I think that makes it difficult to judge just how good he is. If Webber didn't have all the bad luck he's had, he'd probably be 2nd or 3rd in the drivers' standings - and a lot of people don't really rate him.

You could also look at Button winning in 2009 with Brawn - plenty of people don't rate him either.

One other thing I would say is that, on the rare occasions when Red Bull haven't had the best car, Vettel has only looked on the same level as the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, rather than on a different plane altogether. He is Schumacher-esque when he can control a race from the front...a little more ordinary when he's stuck in the leading pack.

Not denying Vettel's abilty from light to flag in a dominant car, just have to wait & judge. I mean he's never won a race from below third on the grid, says everything. People making this ATG argument, including Horner post-race, always usually look pretty stupid when the car is not dominant the following season & their so-called 'genius' begins to struggle. That could happen next year with these rule changes. I actually can't wait to see Vettel mid-pack, enduring 'actual' tyre issues & dirty air & not just the rubbish that Roque makes up, in an attempt to stop Vettel breaking lap records, that he can usually do with ease in that dominant car. Could be a shock to the system, transitioning from leader to actual racing. It's a complete different style of drive & skills required. Interesting to see how he adapts, if, the RB is not the best car next year. I will be the first to praise Vettel, if he shines in that environment under those pressures.