What happens to English pro clubs if there's no Euro cup at all?

As things now stand the h cup won't go ahead with French and English teams, but will include French provincial teams (according to a statement by the FFR). The new c cup won't go ahead as it will be blocked by the FFR. This may change after some legal battles but for a couple of years there probably won't be any competition besides the premiership to help fund the English clubs. From what I read eight out of twelve of the premiership teams are up to their eyeballs in debt. A major motivation for finding a new tv deal and new competition was to make more money, for many of them to survive. The RFU can of course try to fill the gap in funding for the premiership teams but could it do that for all eight of those in debt? If this new BT deal included some European competition broadcasts and they don't get it, they could very well sue the PRL for breach of contract, while the PRL is funding a legal battle to get this c cup underway in European courts. The French will do very well with an expanded top 14 alone but I don't see how expanding the premiership to 16 is going to bring in millions extra for the English clubs. How will clubs deeply in debt manage for a couple of years with less money than they have now, while funding international lawyers?

It looks to me like pro rugby in England is going to be in crisis very soon, with clubs going bust, the best players being picked off by the French, and no one in any rush after a couple of years of this to enter competitions with them. I read comments in French papers online already complaining that the best English team is only ranked ninth in Europe and wouldn't be good enough competition. How interested will the French clubs be in a couple of years time in playing even weaker English sides?

Refusing to negotiate a new h cup with the ERC may be done by the PRL to avoid breaking their BT contract or out of optimism that the FFR will back down, or that the LNR will get lawyers to turn over this ruling in no time. Maybe they know more than they're letting on and South African sides are queuing up to play with them. Or they think that the pro 12 sides will back down because they'll go bankrupt first. (The thing is that pro 12 countries have a small number of pro sides to help finance and could do this with extra internationals in a year.) From my perspective though the PRL are making a very expensive gamble that will cripple many of the clubs that they're trying to help. I don't see that their decisions at this point are wise, their statements to the press seem dreamed up by a stoned pr rep and it makes me think that they're out of grip with reality. The pro 12 sides are willing to negotiate a new h cup. They could at least listen and see what their other options are if the c cup doesn't work. Having a back up plan might actually be a good idea. As things stand there could be a very tough couple of years at least for English clubs on the horizon and some of them may not survive.

Fingers crossed.

Apparently the English clubs make ~80% of their money through the AP not Europe, so I'm not sure they'll go bust at all...

IIRC Leicester used to lose money from being in the HEC unless they got a home 1/4 final,dont know if this is still the case

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Leicester used to lose money from being in the HEC unless they got a home 1/4 final,dont know if this is still the case

Its the way the PRL have chosen to split the money.

"In a bid to ensure that all 12 Zurich Premiership clubs grew together - no matter where they finished in the various competitions - the top English clubs agreed to pool all revenues from television and competition sponsorship, dividing them equally among themselves. For example, this means relegated Rotherham will benefit as much as Wasps this season from the Londoner's surge into the Heineken Cup final.

Wasps are in the same position as Leicester (twice winners) and former champions Bath and Northampton, who all helped fill the collective coffers and saw the 11 other Zurich clubs take an equal share."

By the way, I think Leicester always did well because of the size of their stadium. It was Wasps who has a small fan base who used to lose money. I know Leicester made a stack of money from when they played Leinster from their share of the gate to the Aviva (400K I think).

 

HammerofThunor wrote:Fingers crossed.

 

ChequeredJersey wrote:Apparently the English clubs make ~80% of their money through the AP not Europe, so I'm not sure they'll go bust at all...

Currently. But have you not heard the news? 'Apparently' the BT deal for the premiership means if they don't have a European cup they get less for the premiership than they had before. So it would drop below 80%.

Someone anonymous person said so on a forum so it's got to be true.

HammerofThunor wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Apparently the English clubs make ~80% of their money through the AP not Europe, so I'm not sure they'll go bust at all...

Currently. But have you not heard the news? 'Apparently' the BT deal for the premiership means if they don't have a European cup they get less for the premiership than they had before. So it would drop below 80%.

Someone anonymous person said so on a forum so it's got to be true.

And if you disagree with the arguments presented in the OP you must be one eyed....

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Apparently the English clubs make ~80% of their money through the AP not Europe, so I'm not sure they'll go bust at all...

Currently. But have you not heard the news? 'Apparently' the BT deal for the premiership means if they don't have a European cup they get less for the premiership than they had before. So it would drop below 80%.

Someone anonymous person said so on a forum so it's got to be true.

And if you disagree with the arguments presented in the OP you must be one eyed....

Ah sure there's no one-eyed poster here. Is there LiW?  

Munchkin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Apparently the English clubs make ~80% of their money through the AP not Europe, so I'm not sure they'll go bust at all...

Currently. But have you not heard the news? 'Apparently' the BT deal for the premiership means if they don't have a European cup they get less for the premiership than they had before. So it would drop below 80%.

Someone anonymous person said so on a forum so it's got to be true.

And if you disagree with the arguments presented in the OP you must be one eyed....

Ah sure there's no one-eyed poster here. Is there LiW?  

Absolutely. We are all a model of fairness and logic. Or should I say we are all fair and logical in our assumptions, its just that some are more fair and logical than others

Currently I think rugby union is being headed up by a shower of deluded idiots. The posters on this forum seem seriously sane and fair minded in comparison and I'd happily have any of them take over any of these governing bodies immediately.

Spot on Intotouch - to be fair the SH unions seem to be able to run things a bit more smoothly, I know there are disagreements but it's not on the same scale. The RFU also seem much better now under Ritchie.

Anyway, to the original question I don't think it matters too much to the premiership clubs if there is no European Cup over the next couple of seasons. 2015/16 was always going to be a shorter season because they are (as I understand it) losing 2 months to the world cup during which they can't play pro matches - I'm pretty sure I've read that the RFU has allowed for compensation for that as well. Given that reports suggest they make less per match from the Heineken Cup than any other tournament, they probably stand to lose little more from two seasons without ERC rugby than they would from 1 season with a reduced length premiership or no anglowelsh.

The majority of the rugby journalists reporting on the european cup saga are quite frankly out of their depth. They are being fed information by PRL which is clearly untrue but due to their ignorance are reporting it as fact.

For example, Stephen Jones, a respected rugby journo, revealed to his followers on twitter that Leinster were set to join the angle french cup breakaway and that full details were available in the sunday times! He was ofcourse ignorant to the fact that Leinster are 100% owned by the IRFU and therefore this was unfeasible and a ridiculous suggestion to make!

Indeed over 70% of the pro12 is union owned. Ospreys and Blues have apparently shown an interest in joining the Champions cup but without WRU approval they would receive only £2m in funding from participation in an anglo french cup. Given that they now receive £4.25m each via the union and even without erc money would receive £3m each, the idea of them rebelling against the WRU and playing in an anglo french cup can be dismissed unless thay are invited to join the AVIVA which would need RFU approval!

The fact is that PRL are looking increasingly isolated and they do not have the negotiating leverage with the unions that unlearned rugby journos think they do.

Either PRL negotiate with the unions or they won't be seeing much of that BT money.

Scrumdown wrote:The majority of the rugby journalists reporting on the european cup saga are quite frankly out of their depth. They are being fed information by PRL which is clearly untrue but due to their ignorance are reporting it as fact.

The problem with any kind of journalism is that I can see them all too easily being leaned on by editors. Either they work for a company that like Sky is run by the Murdoch empire and they will be pushed one way, or they work for a competitor happy to see them get a kicking and will be pushed the other.

Scrumdown wrote:...

For example, Stephen Jones, a respected rugby journo..
...

Sorry I lost you after that

lostinwales wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:...

For example, Stephen Jones, a respected rugby journo..
...

Sorry I lost you after that

 me too, i had to stop reading from laughing to much!

The AP sides will be fine as per the EPS agreement they are compensated per international game and additional compensation is arranged with the RFU. For that season they will be fine.

Now, will the Rabo nations survive when the tv companies and sponsors from France and England show little interest given that the big French and English teams are not involved. The staggering three million per club/province/whatever are alleged to earn suddenly plummets as the new deals will be a good deal smaller as the product becomes significantly less marketable.

So we're playing a game of who'll crash and burn first now? Fun times.

yappysnap wrote:So we're playing a game of who'll crash and burn first now? Fun times.

It's suddenly become very nasty and unpleasant.  Moneymen are tolerable in rugby as long as they sit in their hospitality seats with their hangers-on, sipping fizzy water, scoffing tuna wraps and shutting up.

As soon as any of them think that getting lucky selling out their private companies to a takeover bid (from Peter Thomas to Bruce Craig, they are all the clueless same) gives them some sort of instant credibility as a sports club owner, then things go bad.

I think this interview with 'Bruce' was posted elsewhere on here recently

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24239913

it shows someone genuinely amazed that the rest of the world isn't dazzled by his own vision of the future of European rugby.  He's a dim fella.  I'm amazed that anyone would trust him to run a burger van in the club car park, let alone a pro league.

Future of English clubs is grim if this bloke is involved.

Casartelli wrote:

yappysnap wrote:So we're playing a game of who'll crash and burn first now? Fun times.

It's suddenly become very nasty and unpleasant.  Moneymen are tolerable in rugby as long as they sit in their hospitality seats with their hangers-on, sipping fizzy water, scoffing tuna wraps and shutting up.

As soon as any of them think that getting lucky selling out their private companies to a takeover bid (from Peter Thomas to Bruce Craig, they are all the clueless same) gives them some sort of instant credibility as a sports club owner, then things go bad.

I think this interview with 'Bruce' was posted elsewhere on here recently

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24239913

it shows someone genuinely amazed that the rest of the world isn't dazzled by his own vision of the future of European rugby.  He's a dim fella.  I'm amazed that anyone would trust him to run a burger van in the club car park, let alone a pro league.

Future of English clubs is grim if this bloke is involved.

Yep, it's a case of MAD Mutually assured destruction cold war style

It's strange that on the one hand Craig says the AP clubs would be far less affected by the absence of a HEC than the P12 (because 80% of their income comes from the Premiership), and then on the other that the PRL need Europe to redress their losses?

The AP teams will be fine without Europe as will the French. No HEC will be bad for the P12 teams but it really is time they treated Europe as the icing rather than the staple.

It's time they started more negotiations and less ego strutting. Let's face it, even on these boards where the arguments are often bitter we could have organised a new tournament with guaranteed places for Rabo teams yet a new balance in line with Franglo requests. The fact that the Unions and club reps haven't is a bigger sign of their incompetence and egotism than any issues within rugby.

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's time they started more negotiations and less ego strutting. Let's face it, even on these boards where the arguments are often bitter we could have organised a new tournament with guaranteed places for Rabo teams yet a new balance in line with Franglo requests. The fact that the Unions and club reps haven't is a bigger sign of their incompetence and egotism than any issues within rugby.

Surely those are issues within rugby then, and big ones?

I would say they are corporate issues rather than rugby issues. Sadly they are affecting our sport, the playing of rugby in itself does need the corporate politics that the Unions do so love.

I still think that these are idiocy issues rather than corporate or rugby issues.

If the premiership sides lose less than the pro 12 sides per club this doesn't mean that they're somehow in a better position. They needed more money because they're already in debt. This is the main reason that I have sympathy with their position. That they are due to lose money anyway due to the world cup doesn't mean that somehow they're in a fine financial position. They're in debt, they're about to make less money, not more. How is this anything other than bad for English rugby?

Without a euro cup of some sort the French look to get richer and everyone else get poorer. At least until some new competition is legally set up. How much are these people getting paid to wreck rugby in Europe?

Because due to the way the funds are distributed (CC competitors get bugger all) collectively the premiership sides lose less. Also give that the AW made them more money when it was set means an English cup (outside the IW, half decent sponsor) would probably more than cover the loses.

Intotouch you make some good points - especially that the biggest winners in this Euro bust up would be the French clubs.

It's interesting that most of the Pro12 fans' anger has been focussed on the English clubs whereas the real stumbling block to progress is surely the French?


The French have a salary cap far bigger than the English. Isn't it close to 8 million Euros or more? English clubs have a salary cap of around £4.5 million ( I know there are some who believe certain clubs don't keep to this). In terms of competitiveness not even the English can match the French spending power.

The French also have more foreigners in their league than the English.

The French clubs would be happy to go alone and expand the Top 14. They have been very smart - allow the English clubs to take all the criticism whilst the French clubs will be the biggest beneficiaries.


It would be in the Pro12 sides interests to compromise with the English clubs in my opinion.

Only the English have the financial power to match the French.

beshocked wrote:The French clubs would be happy to go alone and expand the Top 14. They have been very smart - allow the English clubs to take all the criticism whilst the French clubs will be the biggest beneficiaries.


It would be in the Pro12 sides interests to compromise with the English clubs in my opinion.

Only the English have the financial power to match the French.

Compromise is a two way street. The PRL obviously don't share your concerns over the French when they jointly gave notice to the ERC and both endorsed the RCC.

Like the French the PRL could just as easily expand the AP or re-institute a domestic cup, if they had no-one to play against in Europe.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Compromise is a two way street.

Agreed.

Sadly it seems that everyone involved in the farcical non-negotiation believes they are the only ones willing to compromise.

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:The French clubs would be happy to go alone and expand the Top 14. They have been very smart - allow the English clubs to take all the criticism whilst the French clubs will be the biggest beneficiaries.


It would be in the Pro12 sides interests to compromise with the English clubs in my opinion.

Only the English have the financial power to match the French.

Compromise is a two way street. The PRL obviously don't share your concerns over the French when they jointly gave notice to the ERC and both endorsed the RCC.

Like the French the PRL could just as easily expand the AP or re-institute a domestic cup, if they had no-one to play against in Europe.

No they can't. The RFU have already block an expansion to the league.

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:The French clubs would be happy to go alone and expand the Top 14. They have been very smart - allow the English clubs to take all the criticism whilst the French clubs will be the biggest beneficiaries.


It would be in the Pro12 sides interests to compromise with the English clubs in my opinion.

Only the English have the financial power to match the French.

Compromise is a two way street. The PRL obviously don't share your concerns over the French when they jointly gave notice to the ERC and both endorsed the RCC.

Like the French the PRL could just as easily expand the AP or re-institute a domestic cup, if they had no-one to play against in Europe.

Depends what the compromise is.

I am being opportunistic. I am happy to side with the Frenchbut equally if the Pro12 are willing to compromise we shouldn't close the door on them.

Ultimately I want to see the destruction of the bloated flawed body the ERC and their greedy paymasters, Sky. Neither are fit for purpose in my opinion.

BT are far from perfect but their coverage of rugby seems far more polished than the rubbish served up by Sky. Also to me they are the lesser of two evils.

PRL are far from perfect either but I have a lot of respect for Nigel Wray for example.

I actually think if us 606v2 lot represented our respective clubs - we could actually sort out this European mess.

beshocked wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:The French clubs would be happy to go alone and expand the Top 14. They have been very smart - allow the English clubs to take all the criticism whilst the French clubs will be the biggest beneficiaries.


It would be in the Pro12 sides interests to compromise with the English clubs in my opinion.

Only the English have the financial power to match the French.

Compromise is a two way street. The PRL obviously don't share your concerns over the French when they jointly gave notice to the ERC and both endorsed the RCC.

Like the French the PRL could just as easily expand the AP or re-institute a domestic cup, if they had no-one to play against in Europe.

Depends what the compromise is.

I am being opportunistic. I am happy to side with the Frenchbut equally if the Pro12 are willing to compromise we shouldn't close the door on them.

Ultimately I want to see the destruction of the bloated flawed body the ERC and their greedy paymasters, Sky. Neither are fit for purpose in my opinion.

BT are far from perfect but their coverage of rugby seems far more polished than the rubbish served up by Sky. Also to me they are the lesser of two evils.

PRL are far from perfect either but I have a lot of respect for Nigel Wray for example.

I actually think if us 606v2 lot represented our respective clubs - we could actually sort out this European mess.

If 606v2 was representative the English would be hiding in holes while mobs of celts tried to burn us. In fact if 606v2 was representative we would have been chinned at the original meeting when notice was given.

beshocked wrote:I actually think if us 606v2 lot represented our respective clubs - we could actually sort out this European mess

Not sure I agree with that!

Although I'd happily negotiate on behalf of Edinburgh. My "must haves" are:

1. Not to be included in a pool with Munster or Saracens, or indeed any other side with any sort of professional work ethic or defensive competence.

2. Automatic qualification - no questions asked.

3. A massively disproportionately large share of the revenue from the competition. I realise this can't be justified based on the 12 fans that regularly watch Edinburgh or the gash rugby we play, but we do have loads of pubs and most away fans tend to have a great time celebrating victory in our lovely city. You can't quantify in money terms that level of pleasure.

You see. Who says 606v2 fans aren't reasonable....

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote:I actually think if us 606v2 lot represented our respective clubs - we could actually sort out this European mess

Not sure I agree with that!

Although I'd happily negotiate on behalf of Edinburgh. My "must haves" are:

1. Not to be included in a pool with Munster or Saracens, or indeed any other side with any sort of professional work ethic or defensive competence.

2. Automatic qualification - no questions asked.

3. A massively disproportionately large share of the revenue from the competition. I realise this can't be justified based on the 12 fans that regularly watch Edinburgh or the gash rugby we play, but we do have loads of pubs and most away fans tend to have a great time celebrating victory in our lovely city. You can't quantify in money terms that level of pleasure.

You see. Who says 606v2 fans aren't reasonable....

According to one poster (no names) the European money should be used to make up for urine poor management of a teams commercial structure. So, if Edinburgh only have 12 fans then should be given the majority. Of course if you start to improve it'll be taken away from you.

Hammerofthunor it depends who the representatives of each club are. 

Let's just say I would rather FES represented Edinburgh than TJ.

FES that is quite funny. 

I would agree with 1. even though Edinburgh is a nice city - Edinburgh festival is great.

You would have to say which club you don't think fits that criteria though.

2. Well that's a tough one. I would agree with that if the deal is 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 Scots and 2 Italians = 8 teams. I doubt the Irish and Welsh care enough about the Scots and Italians to agree to that though!

3. Seeing as I would be happy to compromise on 1 and 2. 3 is a no go sorry.

beshocked wrote:

Ultimately I want to see the destruction of the bloated flawed body the ERC and their greedy paymasters, Sky. Neither are fit for purpose in my opinion.

BT are far from perfect but their coverage of rugby seems far more polished than the rubbish served up by Sky. Also to me they are the lesser of two evils.

Its a gamble going with BT. Bottom line Rugby is not as in demand as Football (which where BT's ship is anchored) so there is every possibility at some stage BT will dump the coverage if it does not bring in the required viewing figures. Sky despite their faults have essentially backed this competition for a long time without pulling out. Granted BT are happy to splash the cash at the moment for a glorified tournament right now but what happens if they disappear? Surely Sky would tell the PRL where to go regarding domestic and European tournaments knowing Murdoch? Who actually would then be left to sell any sports right too? Possibly BBC but then you could get a bunch of arm chair fans like you have in Wales (we are too spoilt here) and it could impact the attendance figures. Also good luck trying to get anywhere near the deal from the BBC that even Sky had been paying.

I totally disagree with the disbandment from Union run tournaments partly because I don't believe the Clubs are running themselves anywhere near well enough currently (which is why the PRL exists as they cant conclude their own deals without a unification). Part of the PRL being formed is that they didn't agree with the RFU on decision policies at the time so circumvented them by creating their own Union (with their own people in charge so that their own considerations are taken into account instead of the game nationwide). There are maybe 3 viable clubs in England currently based on profits over the last 3 years. The rest are loss making organisations. Even your beloved Saracens cannot function without the millions pumped in by its South African benefactors. We have the same in Wales. Our regions from our financials are not capable of managing themselves. The main difference is we have benefactors who at this current time don't actually put that much of their own cash in the regions. Bottom line is the game will change for ever if the IRB allow control to the competitions to the Clubs because the next step will become control issues regarding the players and before you know it International Rugby will be nothing more than a friendly game with a host of the best players no longer appearing in it. Its clear each club owner has only their own clubs interest at heart, which I commend, but for that to become the focal point of rugby would be the death of the sport for me.

beshocked wrote: PRL are far from perfect either but I have a lot of respect for Nigel Wray for example.

.

PRL is primarily flawed in its setup. You essentially have the big spenders in the league (about 4 of them) always being outvoted by the other 8. Basically what's been happening with the ERC for the past decade. So I find it ironic that McCafferty has the stones to even mention the current setup of the ERC when his entire organisation is based on repressing the best clubs in England from running bigger squads and maximising their success (which in turn will generate those clubs with additional income). Its basically replacing the decision makers with their own as outlined above.

I don't respect the way this whole thing was handled by the PRL and the need to involve the media in the first place. It reminded me of the old 1980's-1990's WRU board announcements. I'm glad the WRU are currently a top run organisation and these things are a thing of the past. All this negative media has put me off and I am a rugby fan. What the sponsors are making of all this is beyond me?

Either way it the whole thing can't be negotiated. ERC clearly wont stop, neither will the PRL (both have tied themselves into contracts) which will result in legal action from their sponsors if they renegade on the deals made. Even if the ERC conceded on every point made by the PRL they still couldn't agree as the Sky Deal ERC have signed would prevent the BT deal. Something McCafferty won't allow to happen. What I find unbelievable that they went ahead and signed the deal without even consulting anyone or notifying them of their intent to do so.

Welshmushroom

Yes it is a gamble with siding with BT but the PRL believe it is a risk worth taking.


Well I don't think the unions are running things perfectly.

The Irish are perhaps the exception to the rule.

No I don't rate a rugby union's success on how much money they can squeeze out of people.

There's no doubt WRU have been successful in exploiting the success of the Welsh rugby side but that's at the detriment of the Welsh regions. I don't think it's healthy for the game in Wales. I feel like the WRU has too much power.

WRU a top run organisation? They don't give a damn about Welsh clubs/regions. They only care about themselves. Where was the effort made to prevent North going to Saints for example. The best Welsh players should be incentivised to stay in Wales.

You think the extra game in the AIs to boost the WRU's coffers helps the Welsh clubs/regions?

One of my mate's who is Welsh loves the welsh national rugby side with a huge passion but couldn't give a damn about the regions. That's a typical perception.


Look if you want to talk about my club we can go to a separate thread to do so. Sarries are losing a lot of money sure but they are trying to do something about it. Having one's own stadium does help matters. They are a club that has moved around like nomads. Now that they have their own stadium things should pick up. Both on and off the pitch they are really trying to make themselves more marketable.

To prevent clubs from gaining too much control,a new compromise in regards to players turning out for their national sides could be made. I don't think anyone wants to see the destruction of the international game. We just want balance. Don't want the unions controlling everything.


The English clubs handed in their notice - the ERC have had plenty of time since then to sit down and try to sort this out. They stuck their heads in the sand. Now the English clubs are being a lot more serious - only now are the ERC going to listen.

The PRL threw the gauntlet down with the BT deal. They made their intentions clear - they want to see the end of Sky domination and ERC.

beshocked wrote:Welshmushroom

Yes it is a gamble with siding with BT but the PRL believe it is a risk worth taking.


Well I don't think the unions are running things perfectly.

The Irish are perhaps the exception to the rule.

No I don't rate a rugby union's success on how much money they can squeeze out of people.

There's no doubt WRU have been successful in exploiting the success of the Welsh rugby side but that's at the detriment of the Welsh regions. I don't think it's healthy for the game in Wales. I feel like the WRU has too much power.

WRU a top run organisation?...................

It was, indeed, difficult to concentrate on the rest of Welshmushroom's post after that particular bombshell. Particularly as the WRU 'CEO' Mr Roger Lewis is well known as an amateur fungi grower/enthusiast.

beshocked wrote:Welshmushroom

Yes it is a gamble with siding with BT but the PRL believe it is a risk worth taking.


Well I don't think the unions are running things perfectly.

The Irish are perhaps the exception to the rule.

No I don't rate a rugby union's success on how much money they can squeeze out of people.

There's no doubt WRU have been successful in exploiting the success of the Welsh rugby side but that's at the detriment of the Welsh regions. I don't think it's healthy for the game in Wales. I feel like the WRU has too much power.

WRU a top run organisation? They don't give a damn about Welsh clubs/regions. They only care about themselves. Where was the effort made to prevent North going to Saints for example. The best Welsh players should be incentivised to stay in Wales.

You think the extra game in the AIs to boost the WRU's coffers helps the Welsh clubs/regions?

One of my mate's who is Welsh loves the welsh national rugby side with a huge passion but couldn't give a damn about the regions. That's a typical perception.


Look if you want to talk about my club we can go to a separate thread to do so. Sarries are losing a lot of money sure but they are trying to do something about it. Having one's own stadium does help matters. They are a club that has moved around like nomads. Now that they have their own stadium things should pick up. Both on and off the pitch they are really trying to make themselves more marketable.

To prevent clubs from gaining too much control,a new compromise in regards to players turning out for their national sides could be made. I don't think anyone wants to see the destruction of the international game. We just want balance. Don't want the unions controlling everything.


The English clubs handed in their notice - the ERC have had plenty of time since then to sit down and try to sort this out. They stuck their heads in the sand. Now the English clubs are being a lot more serious - only now are the ERC going to listen.

The PRL threw the gauntlet down with the BT deal. They made their intentions clear - they want to see the end of Sky domination and ERC.

Nonsense.

On the one hand you praise saracens who have made multimillion pound losses over the years. Similar to Toulon, they are also a drain on the playing resources of other clubs and countries because they do not produce their fair share of homegrown players. They are a just a nuisance and without benefactor support would not exist because they do not deserve to exist.

On the other hand you criticise the WRU who run the academies that produce world class players for the regions, wales, the Lions, and increasingly the Top 14 and the Aviva. And they make a profit!

Welsh rugby is trying to live within its means whilst many English and French clubs are living beyond theirs. And we are all suffering because of them.

Scrumdown wrote:

beshocked wrote:Welshmushroom

Yes it is a gamble with siding with BT but the PRL believe it is a risk worth taking.


Well I don't think the unions are running things perfectly.

The Irish are perhaps the exception to the rule.

No I don't rate a rugby union's success on how much money they can squeeze out of people.

There's no doubt WRU have been successful in exploiting the success of the Welsh rugby side but that's at the detriment of the Welsh regions. I don't think it's healthy for the game in Wales. I feel like the WRU has too much power.

WRU a top run organisation? They don't give a damn about Welsh clubs/regions. They only care about themselves. Where was the effort made to prevent North going to Saints for example. The best Welsh players should be incentivised to stay in Wales.

You think the extra game in the AIs to boost the WRU's coffers helps the Welsh clubs/regions?

One of my mate's who is Welsh loves the welsh national rugby side with a huge passion but couldn't give a damn about the regions. That's a typical perception.


Look if you want to talk about my club we can go to a separate thread to do so. Sarries are losing a lot of money sure but they are trying to do something about it. Having one's own stadium does help matters. They are a club that has moved around like nomads. Now that they have their own stadium things should pick up. Both on and off the pitch they are really trying to make themselves more marketable.

To prevent clubs from gaining too much control,a new compromise in regards to players turning out for their national sides could be made. I don't think anyone wants to see the destruction of the international game. We just want balance. Don't want the unions controlling everything.


The English clubs handed in their notice - the ERC have had plenty of time since then to sit down and try to sort this out. They stuck their heads in the sand. Now the English clubs are being a lot more serious - only now are the ERC going to listen.

The PRL threw the gauntlet down with the BT deal. They made their intentions clear - they want to see the end of Sky domination and ERC.

Nonsense.

On the one hand you praise saracens who have made multimillion pound losses over the years.  Similar to Toulon, they are also a drain on the playing resources of other clubs and countries because they do not produce their fair share of homegrown players.  They are a just a nuisance and without benefactor support would not exist because they do not deserve to exist.

On the other hand you criticise the WRU who run the academies that produce world class players for the regions, wales, the Lions, and increasingly the Top 14 and the Aviva. And they make a profit!

Welsh rugby is trying to live within its means whilst many English and French clubs are living beyond theirs. And we are all suffering because of them.  

A shockingly sanctimonious post.

Welsh rugby is NOW trying to live within its means (as it has no choice as the cashflow has dried up) after a decade and more of throwing money at any SH journeyman who could locate Wales on a map.

You can't now fault the French and English for having more generous (and even more clueless) benefactors than we did!

"Either way it the whole thing can't be negotiated. ERC clearly wont stop, neither will the PRL (both have tied themselves into contracts) which will result in legal action from their sponsors if they renegade on the deals made."

So everyone except the French lose money.

BT will sue the PRL for breaking a contract with them. The clubs will have less money. And this is worth it why?

This is a clubs vs unions battle. The difference is that the unions ultimately want the clubs to thrive, the clubs would calmly watch by as the unions shrivel up and die. I think if people are rejoicing the announcement of the c cup as some kind of victory then they're extremely short sighted. English rugby will never be the same again. Once it's all about the clubs and what the clubs need (more money) it's not going to go back. How easy do you think it'll be to get access for international players for example when their club wants them to play that week? Will any be released for Autumn internationals? Will less and less English players play each week? Look at France during the last 6 nations. Out of the whole of the top 14 only two French outhalves regularly started for their clubs. That's what Saint Andre had to choose from. Ireland with four sides had more choices.

Again today i read comments from readers in French papers bemoaning the fact that rugby is going the same route as football and how they're sick of seeing so few Frenchman playing for their clubs and how this all sounds awful. Maybe because their clubs are loaded and win the h cup regularly they have less pity for them. Or maybe because they see how little access their national coach has to his players and how many games these players have to play. Or maybe because they saw what happened to soccer in France and they wouldn't wish that on anyone.

This isn't an us vs them debate. I want English clubs and English rugby to thrive. I want rugby all over the world to thrive. This is a fight for the ownership of the soul and the future of rugby in Europe. This is an us vs us debate. No one wins if the clubs win. No one here (that I've read at least) wants rugby to look like football does now. No one with any sense is really going to believe that the clubs will care about and act to help rugby to thrive once they get the power that they are going for. What do you think will happen to player welfare in all of this? The bottom line will take over all considerations.

Perhaps this will still be resolved in some way that I can't forsee. I really hope so.

This only turned into a "club v Union" battle because the ERC/Unions were unwilling to enter into talks about issues that PRL/LNR had with how the ERC & its competitions were being ran.They didnt believe that PRL/LNR teams would leave & when they did they did very little to try to encourage them back. With no apparent progress from the ERC the PRL/LNR deciced to get things moving

It was a club v union battle from the start. Its clear that is the main agenda of the PRL hence their refusal to even consider any role for unions in running a european cup

The PRL/LNR ( I notice that you dont mention the LNR) wanted to have talks within ERC but the Unions said no to talks & you wonder why they dont want unions involved. Besides,IMHO, this is a starting point for negotiations as I dont think that they are so stupid not to realise that most of the RABO teams have a very strong union influence

Are you really that naive?

To some I probably seem so but to others not

The clubs clearly haven't wanted to negotiate. They've wanted to sabotage the HC and make their own tournament which they control. I think they've rattled the Rabo sides enough now, that they'd definitely get favourable changes to the HC if they came back to negotiate. More money and less Rabo teams in the top tier (and more Rabo teams in the 2nd tier). But they have to accept that they can't get everything they want at the expense of everyone else. And they can't control European rugby. There has to be a compromise. On money and qualification.

But we cannot accept handing control of European rugby to these guys. If they had control they wouldn't even have to issue threats of "financial oblivion" for others to the media. Whenever they wanted more they'd take it. We know the club owners have little time for the good of their own test teams. After all they pay the players. So why would they give a flying feic what any of their future announcements for rugby did to the other four nations, once they made all the decisions. We know how sympathetic French club owners are to player welfare. Not at all. They play French international players in the weeks off between 6 Nations matches. We can't have them making the rules that we all play by. Because every decision will favour their bottom line and not anything else.

Why would the PRL/LNR enter into talks with the ERC as they dont trust them given that the ERC tried to have talks without the PRL hoping to split the LNR & PRL but the LNR told them to get stuffed.

If this ends up with english and french clubs getting increased revenue share for HC McCafferty should be a pro poker player.

Incidently if this doesn't get resolved will his role as premier league ceo be under threat?

Depends on whether you believe that they have prepared for no euro comp if it doesnt get sorted