2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

No.

I would rather the Italian clubs stay. Where did you see this, Chunky? I don't doubt you, but would like to read it.

Would the RFU agree?

Munchkin wrote:I would rather the Italian clubs stay. Where did you see this, Chunky? I don't doubt you, but would like to read it.

It's in the rugby paper today. The Italian teams are on their arse and are struggling to put out 2 pro teams

So if London Scottish are entertaining Glasgow, and the Luvvies, that means I can see more pro 12 games. Result.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I would rather the Italian clubs stay. Where did you see this, Chunky? I don't doubt you, but would like to read it.

It's in the rugby paper today. The Italian teams are on their arse and are struggling to put out 2 pro teams

Checked the rugby paper. Can't find it. Have you a link?

Munchkin wrote:

Checked the rugby paper. Can't find it. Have you a link?

You've read the hard copy and it's not in there?

The links don't appear until Wednesday because it's subscription only.

Nothing more than speculation I'd think, There has been talk for many years of London Welsh becoming the 5th Welsh region but it's never materialised.

It might be better if the Italian teams left the Pro12 though, their not bringing much to the table.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I would rather the Italian clubs stay. Where did you see this, Chunky? I don't doubt you, but would like to read it.

It's in the rugby paper today. The Italian teams are on their arse and are struggling to put out 2 pro teams

So let's love 'em, hug 'em and be sympathetic to 'em and Understand how difficult it is to compete against the Heavyweights of the League??????

I'm beginning to sound like a Welsh Regional supporter from last year!

Why an earth these two clubs would want to leave the competitive English setup for the Pro 12 dross is beyond me. I assume this is just speculative journalism. The RFU would not let this happen anyway. London Scottish and Welsh have been established in the English setup for years. There is nothing to gain by them switching allegiance

Steffan wrote:Why an earth these two clubs would want to leave the competitive English setup for the Pro 12 dross is beyond me. I assume this is just speculative journalism. The RFU would not let this happen anyway. London Scottish and Welsh have been established in the English setup for years. There is nothing to gain by them switching allegiance

The other PRL fans loved the London Welsh when they were part of AP yes. Lots of love and companionship on display, going from my memory. They really were made feel part of the 'Establishment in the English set'.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Checked the rugby paper. Can't find it. Have you a link?

You've read the hard copy and it's not in there?

The links don't appear until Wednesday because it's subscription only.

Ah, ok. Not a subscriber. I can wait until Wednesday I guess. Unless you want to copy and paste

SecretFly wrote:

Steffan wrote:Why an earth these two clubs would want to leave the competitive English setup for the Pro 12 dross is beyond me. I assume this is just speculative journalism. The RFU would not let this happen anyway. London Scottish and Welsh have been established in the English setup for years. There is nothing to gain by them switching allegiance

The other PRL fans loved the London Welsh when they were part of AP yes.  Lots of love and companionship on display, going from my memory.  They really were made feel part of the 'Establishment in the English set'.

I am sure there would have been some love if LW were anything other than feckin useless

They're fecking useless??????????????????????

Why didn't someone tell us that?? Chunky was hiding that bit from us, the sly divil.

Nope, we don't want 'em. Not good enough for our Super League. Sorry, Chunk, it'll be a Veto from us Can't be letting any old sides in.

London Welsh and London Scottish are extremely unlikely to be any better than the Italian sides, but it would be hard for them to be all that much worse either.

I suppose I'd just go for whichever of the two brings more money and fans into the league.

This will offer the RFU an opportunity to experiment with central contracting should they desire one. They could place guys they have contracted to England 7s who could make the transition to 15s with these London sides for a start.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

Why do the Italians owe money to the league? Surely the league pays the clubs not the other way round.

As for London Welsh and London Scottish joining Pro12 surely they do not have the support or infrastructure to make an impact. Where would they play? London Welsh coukd not make Oxford work even with the benefit of away supporters from relatively close teams such as London Irish, Sarries and Gloucester.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

Why do the Italians owe money to the league? Surely the league pays the clubs not the other way round.

As for London Welsh and London Scottish joining Pro12 surely they do not have the support or infrastructure to make an impact. Where would they play? London Welsh coukd not make Oxford work even with the benefit of away supporters from relatively close teams such as London Irish, Sarries and Gloucester.

The Italians don't owe money to the league. When they initially joined, FIR contributed 3m per annum to the pot to cover the extra expenses for travelling & increased squad size to cope with extra games. At that time the Italians had no TV deal or sponsorship and so were not contributing anything to the league. They now have a tv deal at least and make a much smaller contribution to the travelling expenses of other teams.

Now you may think this is unusual, but the Scots and Welsh Regions are not rolling in money to be able to pay the extra costs involved in increased squad size & travel.

I think London Welsh would have had more love the first time round if they hadn't put in their application late and then challenge under false pretences (they said they met the requirements and then right at the beginning agreed they didn't but challenged the requirements themselves. The cynic in me thinks they did this so no other team could benefit (i.e.. The team in the playoff final with them)). That's why they were pretty much universally disliked the first time round. I don't remember anyone saying much this time round other than they're a bit pants.

This may well be tied to the promotion/relegation thing. I seem to remember that last time this was talked about in the media there was nothing in it but the owner (can't remember if it was LW, LS or Pirates) said they would perhaps think about it if the premiership was ring fenced.

I say we should get off our asses as a collective unit (Pro12) and put our money and expertise where our Mouthiness usually is.

The IRFU and/or WRU and/or SRU should actively involve themselves in the Italian section now, and provide active and continuing advice and assistance to help the Italian sides sustain more competitiveness - and Interest in the League.  Whether that's business advice based on proven development techniques or marketing techniques to excite a growth of genuine interest in the sport, or even more practical on-field informal assistance of some kind.

Why should we callously drop the Italians in order to give a prospective leg-up to two English sides that have enough of a platform already in English club rugby, through divisions and expertise available, to make a go of it.... or not.  Those two sides have their ready-made platform.  It's up to them to get their houses in order within it.  

We should be offering more hands-on assistance to Treviso and Zebre and helping them become positive contributors to the League.  We shouldn't simply wait and wait and wait and yawn, and at every opportunity mutter that we'd be better off without them.  No we wouldn't.  We're richer with them.  

We're just being dragged into a mood of impatience.  There is a huge potential marketplace in Italy.  Growth goes where markets aren't yet saturated.  The biggest potential the Pro12 has for growth (money generation) is with Italy in Italy.  So let's stop sitting and waiting and actually send some of our experts out there to try to create better blueprints for growth for them.

And while we're at it, let's choose Italy as the destination of the next three Pro12 Finals!  Let's even send them a few Irish or Welsh Derby Games every season.  Yes, on Neutral territory without home or away advantages or disadvantages.  So what?  Grow the League.  Bring the best of it to the doorstep of our potential biggest cash cows.  Let's stop talking about inclusivity and start proving it.

The Italians have gone backwards at a rate of knots this year, especially when you think that they were looking genuinely competitive a few years ago. They can't attract a crowd and are haemorrhaging players. It must be costing a fortune to run these clubs with all the travelling they have to do and really can't be sustainable as it stands.

From a Scottish perspective this would be an attractive option as it would give us a third pro club at a fraction of the cost of setting up one in Scotland. London Scottish have good sponsorship and a decent potential audience. I would certainly go a lot more often if they were playing in the Pro 12.

The attraction for the club is that they are about to hit the glass ceiling of English rugby. They are never likely to make the AP and may even be locked out if the expansion and no relegation plans go through. They did remarkably well in holding Worcester to a few points on Saturday but that is likely to be as good as it gets. In all honesty it would do them no favours to get any further than the final anyway, as like LW this year, they would just not be able to compete.

This year coming may be make or break for the Italians and if they continue to be as bad as they are now, then something has to change. I agree completely about the size of the potential market in Italy and how a good Italy would be good for the game in general, however I am not convinced that the current model is working for them. They may need to take a step back and go back to developing their own league at semi pro level first. Unlike Wales, Scotland and Ireland, they are a big enough country to have its own league and make it work.

The pro 12 does need 12 teams. To take 2 sides out will leave to many empty weeks and will mean a further reduction in squad sizes and consequently less professional players. That would hit Scotland in particular very hard, but would not do the others any favours either. If the AP was to go up to 14, which I think is likely, then that will leave no other spare weeks for anglo welsh cups or whatever else could be put in place to fill the gaps. The Pro 12 also needs to be a good competitive league, where any side can get beaten on any day. This year there is the danger that it may be decided on who scored the most against the Italians!

What kind if crowds do LS get? LW get very poor crowds and that is with the sizable travelling support from the other AP teams.

When Treviso were at their peak they were getting around 4-5k per week and Zebre's support has grown significatly from their first season (although it is still low at around 2k per game).

Assuming the RFU would let them go or at least have special status, there are real advantages (i.e. prospective audience and less travelling costs) but these two teams would need a whole heap of development before they became competitive. Yes LW have managed 2 terms in the top flight but they are effectively a team that has been bought rather than made, and one that has been bought on a budget. LW are not sustainable in their current form.

lostinwales wrote:Assuming the RFU would let them go or at least have special status, there are real advantages (i.e. prospective audience and less travelling costs) but these two teams would need a whole heap of development before they became competitive. Yes LW have managed 2 terms in the top flight but they are effectively a team that has been bought rather than made, and one that has been bought on a budget. LW are not sustainable in their current form.

LS I think are not a million miles away. They have he basis of a team and are already taking some youngsters from the Scottish pro teams on loans and there is no doubt that this arrangement could be improved/enhanced, there are certainly talented players in the Scottish pro sides that are not getting the game time they need.

LS are a team that have been moving upwards year on year for a long time now, pretty much since they were dumped right down to the bottom of the pile when the original pro team went jubblies up, they are ambitious and don't want the journey to end. Yes they would need some further funding from the SRU, but it would be nothing like the £5 million or so that another pro team in Scotland would cost. The main stumbling block that I can see would be the politics of the SRU putting money into a club south of the border, which in the current climate, may not play to well with certain people in Scotland.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What kind if crowds do LS get? LW get very poor crowds and that is with the sizable travelling support from the other AP teams.

Supposedly 2,500 attended LS home play-off semi yesterday.

LW are averaging a smidge over 3k this season in the AP.

The situation would be quite complex.  

Two rugby side that are privately owned?  Two Clubs based in the territory of one particular Union (RFU) - and I'm sure such administration reality would not be totally relinquished by the RFU, considering both teams would most probably maintain a sizeable number of EQ players on their books.  So two clubs based in the territory of one particular Union but playing in a League controlled by external Unions.

But also - if these sides entered the Pro12 - and there's no other reason for taking in these two specific sides unless their 'cultural' links are acknowledged as the defining reason - IF these sides entered the Pro12, I'd assume the WRU and SRU would also be wanting a big degree of formal attachment to them.  For example, the SRU would want to consider LS as a legitimate third Scottish club from which it might choose to select players for International duty under no duress from any external Union.  WRU would, I'm sure, want the same links to LW.  

So - the situation would be two private clubs coming respectively under the often conflicting interests of two distinct National Unions.  Complex hassles presumed there then when players need to be released for International camps whilst being formally linked to two National Unions!  In short, a team with two Union 'Masters' tugging at it, with often directly competing strategic interests involved. 

Besides that, we also know how much the English based teams have always frowned on big bad Unions dictating terms to them anyway.  So Wales would potentially get a 'fifth' Region that would instinctively want much more autonomy on when to release players, and might even declare bluntly that they are an English side in RFU territory when doing so.  That would be an interesting debate/bloody verbal 606 battle!  

Maybe the Italian teams want out, as opposed to being forced out???

Maybe they don't... but some never wanted them?

I wanted them! But if they're not happy, and it's not working out for them, then I wouldn't blame them for looking at other options rather than burying their heads the sand out of a sense of duty to the Pro12 partners. That could mean they bankrupt and damage themselves as clubs irreversibly. If they get out now they might save themselves (God, who do I sound like??? Chunky, but with an Italian hat on instead?! Chunky Nero, perhpas!).

All guesswork to be honest. But perhaps they're in that delicate situation, that knife edge, where deciding whether to act now or see how things pan out could have huge consequences for the clubs and perhaps Italian rugby as a whole.

Griff wrote:Maybe the Italian teams want out, as opposed to being forced out???

I think it may well be whoever is counting the beans in Italy is rapidly realising that the numbers are not even remotely adding up. It may be that the Italian Union is realising that the money it is making from its internationals could be much better spent than subsidising two pro teams propping up the bottom of the league.

SecretFly wrote:The situation would be quite complex.  

Two rugby side that are privately owned?  Two Clubs based in the territory of one particular Union (RFU) - and I'm sure such administration reality would not be totally relinquished by the RFU, considering both teams would most probably maintain a sizeable number of EQ players on their books.  So two clubs based in the territory of one particular Union but playing in a League controlled by external Unions.

But also - if these sides entered the Pro12 - and there's no other reason for taking in these two specific sides unless their 'cultural' links are acknowledged as the defining reason - IF these sides entered the Pro12, I'd assume the WRU and SRU would also be wanting a big degree of formal attachment to them.  For example, the SRU would want to consider LS as a legitimate third Scottish club from which it might choose to select players for International duty under no duress from any external Union.  WRU would, I'm sure, want the same links to LW.  

So - the situation would be two private clubs coming respectively under the often conflicting interests of two distinct National Unions.  Complex hassles presumed there then when players need to be released for International camps whilst being formally linked to two National Unions!  In short, a team with two Union 'Masters' tugging at it, with often directly competing strategic interests involved. 

Besides that, we also know how much the English based teams have always frowned on big bad Unions dictating terms to them anyway.  So Wales would potentially get a 'fifth' Region that would instinctively want much more autonomy on when to release players, and might even declare bluntly that they are an English side in RFU territory when doing so.  That would be an interesting debate/bloody verbal 606 battle!  

I am not sure what the situation is with LW, but I imagine it is the same as LS, which is that they are already affiliated to the SRU as well as the RFU. I don't think there would be any problem with them playing in a competition overseen by the SRU and why would they want to stop them, they just would not subsidise them any more. The reality is that they would just carry on affiliated to both as at present, as LS have a thriving amateur seen and no doubt that would carry on playing in the RFU whatever happened to the professional end of the club.

How much control the SRU would want or have over the club would be subject to some negotiation and the amount of control they would get would no doubt be proportional to the funding they give. LS do have the potential to earn quite a lot of their own money though. They already have some pretty blue chip sponsors and live in the rugby heartlands of SW London with very good links to the wealthy ex-pat Scottish community in London. Other than Bristol and Worcester, they are the next best funded championship side and that is without having a sugar daddy. With LS it is much more of a collective effort.

Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

I think the ultimate problem with the Italian sides is their home grounds are in cow pastures in the back end of nowhere.  They should be in or just outside a major city like Milan.  Not in cow flop country. No wonder no one goes to see them. And, to me, that is the root cause of their problems.

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

I don't think there is any talk of throwing them out. I think the speculation is that they want out and to be honest I can see why. Hard to see how they can be selling Rugby to Italy in the current set up.

doctor_grey wrote:I think the ultimate problem with the Italian sides is their home grounds are in cow pastures in the back end of nowhere.  They should be in or just outside a major city like Milan.  Not in cow flop country.  No wonder no one goes to see them.  And, to me, that is the root cause of their problems.

Treviso and Parma are not small places and should in theory have the population to support a team. I think more of a problem is that the teams are rubbish and it takes some dedication to follow a losing team week in week out.

I am a Scottish rugby fan, I should know!

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

Maybe you don't have it straight?

>If< there's any truth in the Italian clubs not paying their debt, then that is debt that will not be paid to help cover the costs of other participating teams. They have had ample time to get things sorted on the financial front, but do seem to be dragging their heels.

That said, I don't want to see them go. I would prefer they remain with the hope of being more competitive on all fronts in the near future, or at least become financially secure.

Anyway, I don't really know how to improve sour grapes, but try a little sugar.

BigGee wrote:

I am not sure what the situation is with LW, but I imagine it is the same as LS, which is that they are already affiliated to the SRU as well as the RFU. I don't think there would be any problem with them playing in a competition overseen by the SRU and why would they want to stop them, they just would not subsidise them any more. The reality is that they would just carry on affiliated to both as at present, as LS have a thriving amateur seen and no doubt that would carry on playing in the RFU whatever happened to the professional end of the club.

How much control the SRU would want or have over the club would be subject to some negotiation and the amount of control they would get would no doubt be proportional to the funding they give. LS do have the potential to earn quite a lot of their own money though. They already have some pretty blue chip sponsors and live in the rugby heartlands of SW London with very good links to the wealthy ex-pat Scottish community in London. Other than Bristol and Worcester, they are the next best funded championship side and that is without having a sugar daddy. With LS it is much more of a collective effort.

Bristol and Worchester it is then!  We'll let them in because they're loaded.

On the more serious points, I think the very multifaceted aspect of the pan-National League that is currently Pro12 presents the League with some of its biggest underlying tensions - whether we all care to acknowledge them openly or not.  

Much if not most of the Friction comes from four Nations trying to compete in one League where suspicions rise up readily and are often bluntly based on different Nartional concepts, different National perspectives, different requirements and priorities within the four Nations.  We're trying to form a common League but for many different reasons, or at least we continue to go about our participation in the League in various often conflicting ways.  That's natural.  We don't want conformity - we're separate rugby Nations with differing ambitions and drives.

So I think adding that other layer of complexity in National terms.... (RFU territory teams, and possible complications and frustrations and more friction fights) .... is a complexity level perhaps too far.

I still say let's show the Italians we value them by actually assisting them to get on an improved platform of admin and interest.  Certainly the IRFU have experience of getting systems in place to improve the image of and participation in the sport.  They could share that more actively and practically with the Italian sides.  We have to involve that 'fringe' element of Italy more.  To be honest, we don't make them feel welcome.  

LW and LS have their framework.  If they are confident as teams, then they should drive forward from within their own substantially manned and skilled platform (English club rugby).  Why should we drop the Italians (if they don't want to be dropped) to prop up the two London outfits?

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

Good work. I agree.

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

I don't think there is any talk of throwing them out. I think the speculation is that they want out and to be honest I can see why. Hard to see how they can be selling Rugby to Italy in the current set up.

If it's true that they're claiming they want out, it could be that they are simply trying to force the Pro12 into giving them a better deal?

doctor_grey wrote:I think the ultimate problem with the Italian sides is their home grounds are in cow pastures in the back end of nowhere.  They should be in or just outside a major city like Milan.  Not in cow flop country.  No wonder no one goes to see them.  And, to me, that is the root cause of their problems.

Munster won't like the sneers.....

Munchkin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

I don't think there is any talk of throwing them out. I think the speculation is that they want out and to be honest I can see why. Hard to see how they can be selling Rugby to Italy in the current set up.

If it's true that they're claiming they want out, it could be that they are simply trying to force the Pro12 into giving them a better deal?

They're maybe saying they can't handle the extortion rates just now?  Afterall, the Welsh are having their own issues with viability and they have Four sides and a host of household name players (even after a handful of household names have gone).  So maybe the Italians are simply asking; "And where the F**K are we meant to get this f**king money???? - If we don't have it, we can't cough it up.  Break our legs if you must, but we don't have the dough"

Munchkin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

I don't think there is any talk of throwing them out. I think the speculation is that they want out and to be honest I can see why. Hard to see how they can be selling Rugby to Italy in the current set up.

If it's true that they're claiming they want out, it could be that they are simply trying to force the Pro12 into giving them a better deal?

I don't think they are getting a bad deal now. They certainly were getting a bit shafted in their first couple of years, when they had to pay to play, but that has been sorted out now. As far as I am aware they are equal partners now.

I think maybe having four teams could be a reason they are having issue's with financial viability?

If the Italians can't afford it now, then when? It isn't as if they haven't had plenty of time to get things in order. You're right. No point in flogging a dead horse, but then what's the solution? Give them a free ride? At what costs to the other teams involved? The Provinces can probably afford to soak up the costs, but what about Wales and Scotland?

I want them to stay, but they're going to have to pull the finger out and add something to the league....eventually.

Last season they were complaining and had their costs cut (I'm delighted they did), and if there's any truth in this latest news by Chunky they're complaining again and threatening to leave again! That isn't healthy for anyone.

BigGee wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Right so let me get this straight. The saintly pro 12 that cares about rugby and has such higher morals than the aviva premiership is about to kick out the Italian clubs as they won't pay the existing unions money to take part. If this was the aviva I can just imagine the reaction from Scots, welsh and Irish posters on none if which are condoning one of the most disgraceful acts in terms of club rugby I've seen.

I don't think there is any talk of throwing them out. I think the speculation is that they want out and to be honest I can see why. Hard to see how they can be selling Rugby to Italy in the current set up.

If it's true that they're claiming they want out, it could be that they are simply trying to force the Pro12 into giving them a better deal?

I don't think they are getting a bad deal now. They certainly were getting a bit shafted in their first couple of years, when they had to pay to play, but that has been sorted out now. As far as I am aware they are equal partners now.

That's my thinking on it. They were getting shafted and I was very happy that it was sorted for them, but now they're complaining of the same things even so.

Maybe they want the Pro12 to pay their way, or maybe they honestly believe they can't compete in Pro12? Either way it needs to be sorted. Even if that means we are down to 10 teams next season.

That's assuming this is true of course

Jumping ahead massively here, but if they left then where would they play? And if they had nowhere immediately to play then would they still get places in the European Cup? That's perhaps what they're at risk of throwing away if they leave the Pro12.

Would that then give 2 more spaces to the remaining 'Pro10' sides?! Probably not as the shouts of 'no meritocracy' would be heard again

Munchkin wrote:I think maybe having four teams could be a reason they are having issue's with financial viability?

If the Italians can't afford it now, then when? It isn't as if they haven't had plenty of time to get things in order. You're right. No point in flogging a dead horse, but then what's the solution? Give them a free ride? At what costs to the other teams involved? The Provinces can probably afford to soak up the costs, but what about Wales and Scotland?

I want them to stay, but they're going to have to pull the finger out and add something to the league....eventually.

Last season they were complaining and had their costs cut (I'm delighted they did), and if there's any truth in this latest news by Chunky they're complaining again and threatening to leave again! That isn't healthy for anyone.

What did Chunky say though?  Did he add to what he said at the beginning?  All Chunky said, as far as I hear, is that two English sides are being lined up as possibles for Pro12 entry IF the Italians don't service their part of the Pro12 outlays?  
Does that Prove they've said they're Not Paying?  Did the Italians say anything yet?  The article will decide I reckon.  

But some people getting angry at the Italians is a bit like how old jokes go when people laugh about what they'd say to someone if that someone came up and told them to F**k Off.  And as the laughs and the affected insults come down on the innocent someone who never said anything, the laughers laugh themselves into thinking the poor someone actually did say F**k Off and turn up at his doorstep looking for an apology.

Like I said, I think we've never really embraced the Italians.  They don't feel welcome - and maybe that is a natural result of distances.  But in this modern world I don't think the distance between Italy and the rest of us should be an automatic reason to bluntly drop them and take on-board two others who are based in London and have enough resources and surrounding expertise and potential PRL gained money to get on with it and fight to get into the AP....or stay there.

Griff wrote:Jumping ahead massively here, but if they left then where would they play? And if they had nowhere immediately to play then would they still get places in the European Cup? That's perhaps what they're at risk of throwing away if they leave the Pro12.

Would that then give 2 more spaces to the remaining 'Pro10' sides?! Probably not as the shouts of 'no meritocracy' would be heard again

You would imagine that they would go back to playing in the Italian league, but not as Zebre though, which was always a amalgamated club that lacked identity, they would just go back to their local identities. They would have to come out of the main European cup if that was the case, which would be no bad thing given how much their presence slews one of the groups, but they could still get some places in the B tournament, which would be much more their level.

For the record, I don't believe this will happen imminently. But it goes to show that rugby people are:

1) Thinking the pro12 isn't working
2) Thinking of alternative solutions

That's all we can ask for at the moment. Now if only more fans would acknowledge the need for change.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think maybe having four teams could be a reason they are having issue's with financial viability?

If the Italians can't afford it now, then when? It isn't as if they haven't had plenty of time to get things in order. You're right. No point in flogging a dead horse, but then what's the solution? Give them a free ride? At what costs to the other teams involved? The Provinces can probably afford to soak up the costs, but what about Wales and Scotland?

I want them to stay, but they're going to have to pull the finger out and add something to the league....eventually.

Last season they were complaining and had their costs cut (I'm delighted they did), and if there's any truth in this latest news by Chunky they're complaining again and threatening to leave again! That isn't healthy for anyone.

What did Chunky say though?  Did he add to what he said at the beginning?  All Chunky said, as far as I hear, is that two English sides are being lined up as possibles for Pro12 entry IF the Italians don't service their part of the Pro12 outlays?  
Does that Prove they've said they're Not Paying?  Did the Italians say anything yet?  The article will decide I reckon.  

But some people getting angry at the Italians is a bit like how old jokes go when people laugh about what they'd say to someone if that someone came up and told them to F**k Off.  And as the laughs and the affected insults come down on the innocent someone who never said anything, the laughers laugh themselves into thinking the poor someone actually did say F**k Off and turn up at his doorstep looking for an apology.

Like I said, I think we've never really embraced the Italians.  They don't feel welcome - and maybe that is a natural result of distances.  But in this modern world I don't think the distance between Italy and the rest of us should be an automatic reason to bluntly drop them and take on-board two others who are based in London and have enough resources and surrounding expertise and potential PRL gained money to get on with it and fight to get into the AP....or stay there.

We are all going on the little Chunky shared, and if we're not to discuss those things which might not be fact then there's no discussion to be had!

This is what Chunky stated: "..if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league." Now I would say that it's fair to assume from that little snippet that the Italians teams are not in a position to pay. So no, Chunky didn't have to further add to his comment to make that assumption. It's hardly a leap.

I have also repeatedly stated "if the story is true"

I don't know about laughing laughers, but I do know I'm not one of them. I don't know if the story is true, as I've repeatedly stated, and I have also made very clear that I want the Italians to stay in Pro12.

I do agree with your last comment though I'm far more in favour of helping the Italians out rather than them leaving to make way for whoever else. I'm not in favour of helping them out indefinitely though. They do need to pull the finger out and become financially viable.............if Chunky's story is in fact true....

Chunky Norwich wrote:For the record, I don't believe this will happen imminently. But it goes to show that rugby people are:

1) Thinking the pro12 isn't working
2) Thinking of alternative solutions

That's all we can ask for at the moment. Now if only more fans would acknowledge the need for change.

The Pro12 isn't working? That's a huge leap, Chunky. Try and keep your feet on the ground awhile

We don't know if there's any truth in what you claim. I haven't even seen this blasted report yet!