It's about time the RFU detailed their position and aligned themselves with either the PRL or Rugby.

Clubs face oblivion if RFU take on PRL over Europe

Posted on October 4, 2013 by Jeff Probyn in Jeff Probyn

Financial Oblivion are the words used by Bath’s owner Bruce Craig when describing the possible fate facing the RaboDirect Pro12 if they don’t join the new Rugby Champions Cup.

There was also a threat of legal action should the IRB or Unions try to interfere or stop it. So there it is: Capitulate or there will be out and out war between the clubs and Unions.

If it is war, the big question is, would the RFU have the courage to do what’s needed to win?

I have no doubt the IRB will be up for the fight given the possible consequences of ceding power to a few rich club owners, or that if the French Union (FFR) remain strongly against any new competition, that their clubs (LNR) will back down rather than face a possible ban from the FFR – but the RFU are different.

Not since the first days of professionalism when Cliff Brittle was chairman have the RFU stood against PRL (the Premiership clubs) or its predecessors and it would be hard for them to take such a stand now, especially this close to the World Cup – but not impossible.

PRL are using the ‘carrot and stick’ approach with the Union in trying to gain their support. The ‘carrot’ is the promise of a more financially stable Premiership by their running and organising the competition in Europe.

The ‘stick’ is possible legal action and the threat of withholding players from international preparations if the RFU refuse to give their backing for the new competition.

If the RFU were strong enough to face up to this challenge from the clubs they could possibly rescue not just the English but the European game from total meltdown.

It would be incredibly painful and could involve going back to those dark days of turmoil and bankruptcy that were so much a part of those early days of the professional game in England – but let’s imagine this possible scenario…

The RFU vote against the formation of the new competition and the PRL retaliate by not releasing players for international duties stating primacy of contract and launch a restraint of trade action against the Union and the IRB.

The RFU then withdraw from negotiations to pay the clubs for player release and announce that they will form six regional teams to take part in Europe.

The RFU enter negotiations with NCA (National Clubs Association) for players to be brought into the EPS along with a number of elite academy players and, at this point, the RFU announce that from now on they will centrally contract the players for regions as they have done for the England Sevens squad.

This would enable the RFU to save the money currently paid to the PRL clubs for playing English Qualified Players and it would allow the RFU to contract only EQP for each region, should they wish to do so.

To avoid any legal or financial repercussions each step would be brought in as contracts between the RFU and PRL end, while at the same time the RFU would withdraw all non-contracted funding from PRL clubs.

With agreement from government, the RFU announce that the academies are to be removed from the Premiership clubs and transferred to universities and colleges in each of the regions along with all accompanying funding.

The PRL clubs would then form a break-away game, but without the funding from the RFU, those that don’t have rich owners prepared to cover the shortfall would quickly find themselves in financial difficulties.

Then the RFU call a special general meeting to create regional teams and restructure the leagues with a return of limited funding for all levels of the game, which is approved.

The season is restructured so that the leagues feed into a county championship that acts as a number of trials for regional selection and the European games are moved to a time that fits better with the French season to appease LNR.

Players in England would have to make tough choices when it comes to contract renewal.

Do they stay with the PRL clubs with no hope of international honours or take a chance and sign for the RFU regions with a chance to play for England and the extra earning potential that brings?

There would be short term consequences for the national side as all the current squad members are contracted to PRL clubs but that would last only until either contracts were renewed or new players emerged through the ranks, which could be just a single season.

The potential outcome would be a stable league structure in England with the RFU funding just six regional teams instead of the 24 clubs in the Premiership and Championship.

The European competitions would remain under Union control, enabling them to continue the role of developing rugby across the whole of the European rugby community while PRL would have caught the bus to their own Financial Oblivion!

What a load of nonsense

If that is what Probyn has said, then I would suggest that maybe he took one too many knocks to thead in his playing career.

Put a sock it in Craig. Stick to darts or something.

This all upsets me and really p!$$ing me off....

It has nothing to do with Rugby, and is all about greed and the battle of 2 big companies, Sky and BT, who neither care two hoots about the game, only about increasing their market share.

I think most are in agreement that qualification should be based on the top places in each of the leagues and not, as the Pro 12 currently do, guaranteeing qualification from each nation. Also, have no question that the revenue should be split EVENLY between each of the leagues to split amongst qualifying teams/unions. Which makes the BT deal just as unfair giving the English and French bigger shares of the money.

So it's about time the bullsh!t is cut through, and we get fair qualification, ie. top 6 in each league, plus previous year finalists. Even third split of money for each league. But I can't see this being resolved as there are too many business men fighting this out whom probably only knowledge of rugby is the game they tried to avoid playing in sports during their time in Harrow or Eaton...

If this is not resolved amicably, the Celtic nations are going to lose out, but it won't be all roses for the English clubs either. The only nation who can survive without European competition will be the French, but I reckon they will miss it deep down.

Beam me up Scotty. Pure fantasy.

The RFU & PRL have a player release agreement in place until 2016 (i.e. until after RWC 2015).

I wish ERC had as much foresight over the HC and could guarantee its future by a similar willingness to negotiate.

But haven't the ERC attempted to reignite negotiations by appointing an independent mediator?  Where as the PRL and LNR (including Bruce Craig and Jackie Lorenzetti) are saying that no matter what now the HC is dead??

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199723.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

So angry at the OP and his endless crusade I mentioned things I probably, legally, should not have done - so post removed.

References Tiger?

HammerofThunor wrote:References Tiger?

Confidential documents, I should not have referenced. sorry. Probably best if I do a Portnoy and apply a self imposed exile.

I don't think that's necessary. It never happened and I'll self administer a mind wipe.

I think Probyn wrote this article not to suggest what should be done but to demonstrate that the RFU are not a powerless underling, if they so choose they can turn English rugby on its head. And should they decide to remind Mark McCafferty that they are the spokesmen for the game at large in England they can do plenty withouth the PREMIERSHIP clubs.

Point of the OP is that the RFU are still the only party who have not aligned themselves and they are the lunch pin.

The PRLs ideas are not the only options open to Premiership rugby. It is about time that Wnglish fans also considered alternatives that do not disrupt rugby in every other country.

Of course the RFU hold the ultimate power. Everyone knows that, including the PRL. But having all the power doesn't mean they should go stamping around, shouting the odds. They'll do what they think is right for English rugby. That does not mean aligning with anyone else, be the other unions or the clubs.

They don't NEED to state their position so they haven't. And I'm glad.

Artful_Dodger wrote:But haven't the ERC attempted to reignite negotiations by appointing an independent mediator?  Where as the PRL and LNR (including Bruce Craig and Jackie Lorenzetti) are saying that no matter what now the HC is dead??

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199723.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

Only after spending the last year and a half refusing to budge on any issues whatsoever and now they are trying to salvage it post mortem after the parties they would not deal with have walked away.

Personally I'm still hoping the competition can be saved, but I don't see it. So its the RCC for us now and it's really down to whether or not the Pro12 will join us or try and go it alone.

LondonTiger wrote:So angry at the OP and his endless crusade I mentioned things I probably, legally, should not have done - so post removed.

If you read the endless barrage of articals posing as debate on the current european cup issues (but actually just thinly veiled attacks on all things English, RFU, PRL, fans and players alike) you will quickly find that it is the same 3 or 4 posters creating 95% of the traffic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

Sing along with me brother....

All you need is love... dat dat dada dah... all you need is love...

Metal Tiger wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:So angry at the OP and his endless crusade I mentioned things I probably, legally, should not have done - so post removed.

If you read the endless barrage of articals posing as debate on the current european cup issues (but actually just thinly veiled attacks on all things English, RFU, PRL, fans and players alike) you will quickly find that it is the same 3 or 4 posters creating 95% of the traffic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

Sing along with me brother....



All you need is love... dat dat dada dah... all you need is love...

3 or 4 posters???


Most people think the moves of BT and the PRL are savage and will have a very negative effect on world rugby. There are even a good number of English posters that think the moves of BT and the PRL are shamefully self opportunistic and for the benefit of no one but themselves.

What is sad is that LT and HT see this as some conspiracy of opinion against them. Maybe it's due to their blinkered unwavering support of the PRL?? There arguments have not swayed a single person on this board to suddenly see the PRLs concept championship as being a positive move for European rugby.

I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think some people have got whipped up into a frenzy based on wrong or incomplete information. Some posters on here bring up wrong or incomplete information. I call them on it. I don't think I've ever said I agree with the PRL's actions.

I have had dark moments in the last year and have apparently been posting in my sleep to perhaps my subconscious has a different opinion.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think some people have got whipped up into a frenzy based on wrong or incomplete information. Some posters on here bring up wrong or incomplete information.................

I can't believe they'd do that.

Next you'll be suggesting that some posters fail to provide any links or sources!

Metal Tiger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:But haven't the ERC attempted to reignite negotiations by appointing an independent mediator?  Where as the PRL and LNR (including Bruce Craig and Jackie Lorenzetti) are saying that no matter what now the HC is dead??

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199723.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

Only after spending the last year and a half refusing to budge on any issues whatsoever and now they are trying to salvage it post mortem after the parties they would not deal with have walked away.

Personally I'm still hoping the competition can be saved, but I don't see it. So its the RCC for us now and it's really down to whether or not the Pro12 will join us or try and go it alone.

According to one of the Scots, they said they were prepared to give way a couple of months back on what was then meant to be the major issues, but this didn't suit the PRL's agenda, so no one heard anything about it.

No one trusts the PRL. Some of the stuff they have claimed (like Leinster ready to join the new Comp.) illustrates perfectly why no one trusts them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24412491


If this story had been the RFU warning PRL clubs - maestegmafia would be all over it - but it is not so it is ignored.

Apparently I am a PRL apologist, despite regularly criticising McGafferty. I realy wish he was the only one to blame in this mess - then it would be easy to fix, but he isn't. Sadly too many people are willing to believe 100% the pap being fed from their own side in the matter.

I have finally had enough of his rabid xenophobia, and I am out of here. Through this site, the Beeb one and the old ScrumV board it has been good (and bad) times.

I will miss most of you, and I will miss debating rugby with passionate fans of all clubs and countries. However the hatred maetegmafia continues to hurl towards everything English means I cannot read these boards without getting angry. And life is too short for that. Putting him on ignore does not help, as he insists on writing Sensationalist Headlines to his articles.

I know I will not be missed - especially not by that hateful little man.

Think this one just needs to be quietly left alone now.

I hope you come back at some point, LT.

And LT if you do see this just take a break and come back soon. As for MM I think secretly he must love the English. After all he does seem to spend a lot more time writing about us than he does anything else.

There is a number of you who should spend a lot less time pondering on what you fantasize posters motives are and maybe take on board a great deal more of what they are saying...?

you still don't call someone a moron.

When they persistently behave in a moronic fashion, it becomes their title.

Well, that is your choice if you want to continue in this manner.

suffer the consequences.

maes, lighten up, buddy - LT has been and still is an excellent poster - after all this European nonsense is over, we still need to be able to give each other banter without causing or taking offence

If all the 'class enemies ' who dare disagree with the 'prevailing view' leave then the prevailing view will finally be that.

In this debate I have seen sensible posters, mildly deluded posters and rabid fanatics on both sides. LT is one of the sensible ones.

There are a few things that bug me about this.

No1 - Just because you are a Rich owner of a club who has invested a lot of money knowing that they will never recoup what they have put in it doesn't make you greedy and evil when an offer is on the table that will secure the clubs and many other clubs futures for years to come.

No2 - ERC are as much to blame as anyone as they refused to listen to English and French clubs in the first place, they also didn't negotiate a very good TV deal as BT were willing to pay a lot more than Sky. They have shown themselves to be very unprofessional by allowing a contract to enter its final year without negotiating with clubs to sign a new one.

No3 - This isn't about fans renewing rivalries between countries which unfortunately some people seem to think it is. This has nothing to do with Eng vs. Wales/Ireland etc... Not all English fans are bad people just because they value domestic rugby over European rugby or think that the Rabo teams have it easy when it comes to qualifying.

No4 - The RFU need to (at least) be seen doing more as so far none of us really know where they stand, they look like rabbits caught in the headlights of a speeding car.

No5 - PRL need to try and come across better when they talk to the press as they are made to look a lot worse than they are.

i do worry about this site, we're losing good posters like LT because of the fud posted by a minority.

I have been trying to get my head around all this debacle for the last couple of weeks but I cannot not seem to fathom a few things out, firstly, if the French and English clubs are going to go it alone on this, where are they going to get all their officials from ? The officials are all employed by the unions,are they not. Also, if the unions also run the domestic competitions, what domestic competitions are the clubs going to be playing in ? For, things to work we need an all empowering force that will make decisions without any biased views, now, and this is not just privy to English and French rugby, why would any fan want to be in a situation where there are about a dozen or more ego's going head to head making decisions ? There will obviously be another power struggle when the owners/Chairmen of the clubs do not see eye to eye and only want the best for their own club, I have said on another thread (albeit I got the author wrong) but it is just like the book Animal Farm, only people of a more ancient age like myself will get that one, but the signs are there, too many chiefs and not enough Indians, I would not want to be in a situation where there are a dozen or so more millionaires with ego's to match are running the show.

I'm sure LT will come back 606v2 is hard to put down, but it is a shame that some people come here and use stories like this as a vehicle to push their own agendas.

LordDowlais wrote:I have been trying to get my head around all this debacle for the last couple of weeks but I cannot not seem to fathom a few things out, firstly, if the French and English clubs are going to go it alone on this, where are they going to get all their officials from ? The officials are all employed by the unions,are they not. Also, if the unions also run the domestic competitions, what domestic competitions are the clubs going to be playing in ? For, things to work we need an all empowering force that will make decisions without any biased views, now, and this is not just privy to English and French rugby, why would any fan want to be in a situation where there are about a dozen or more ego's going head to head making decisions ? There will obviously be another power struggle when the owners/Chairmen of the clubs do not see eye to eye and only want the best for their own club, I have said on another thread (albeit I got the author wrong) but it is just like the book Animal Farm, only people of a more ancient age like myself will get that one, but the signs are there, too many chiefs and not enough Indians, I would not want to be in a situation where there are a dozen or  so more millionaires with ego's to match are running the show.

They're not going alone. I don't remember ever seeing anything from the PRL suggesting they would. Also at worst the PRL would collective have no more than 33%. Even if they join with the French 33% you could easily have major decisions needing 75% vote.

But where will they get all their match officials and the what not for this new competition ?

Sure LT will post again, especially when the HC starts and the Tigers perform well.

However, I do think there has been a lot of unfair anger thrown in Maesteg's way. After all, he is only reporting on a story that has been reported out there by other media sources.

As for only posting anti-English threads, I don't agree. There are far many other posters on here who post nothing what so ever about rugby, but are always there with the one line replies to feed the fire. One in particular comes to mind, but best not mention ****l by name or I'll be accused of attacking the "poster" like Maesteg...

We forget. The game we love is rugby UNION... and United we stand, but divided the game faces oblivion... I fear darker days are yet to come.

Match officials cam be offered new contracts, just like players.....

Recwatcher wrote:Match officials cam be offered new contracts, just like players.....

Yes but how many contract are up at the end of this season ? Also, I am sure the ref's would be more loyal to the unions in which they represent, especially when wanting to aspire to ref at international level, also there is a world cup comming up, the only answer I can see is tempting refs like Allain Rolland who is retiring at the end of the season to give it another year. But there are not many like him who are ready to retire.

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Match officials cam be offered new contracts, just like players.....

Yes but how many contract are up at the end of this season ? Also, I am sure the ref's would be more loyal to the unions in which they represent, especially when wanting to aspire to ref at international level, also there is a world cup comming up, the only answer I can see is tempting refs like Allain Rolland who is retiring at the end of the season to give it another year. But there are not many like him who are ready to retire.

Do the contracts say they are only allowed to ref in certain leagues/cups? Is there anything to say that couldn't have two contracts on the go?

Scrumpy wrote:There are a few things that bug me about this.

No1 - Just because you are a Rich owner of a club who has invested a lot of money knowing that they will never recoup what they have put in it doesn't make you greedy and evil when an offer is on the table that will secure the clubs and many other clubs futures for years to come.

No2 - ERC are as much to blame as anyone as they refused to listen to English and French clubs in the first place, they also didn't negotiate a very good TV deal as BT were willing to pay a lot more than Sky. They have shown themselves to be very unprofessional by allowing a contract to enter its final year without negotiating with clubs to sign a new one.

No3 - This isn't about fans renewing rivalries between countries which unfortunately some people seem to think it is. This has nothing to do with Eng vs. Wales/Ireland etc... Not all English fans are bad people just because they value domestic rugby over European rugby or think that the Rabo teams have it easy when it comes to qualifying.

No4 - The RFU need to (at least) be seen doing more as so far none of us really know where they stand, they look like rabbits caught in the headlights of a speeding car.

No5 - PRL need to try and come across better when they talk to the press as they are made to look a lot worse than they are.

Well said.

Contrary to popular opinion I have nothing against the Welsh,Irish etc.

I want as many nations as possible to be represented in an European club competition.

Lorddowlais the ERC are still biased. The Unions are still biased. There is still self-interest. The ERC championed the Sky deal. The Unions of Italy,Wales,Scotland and Ireland want to keep the status quo because it's a cosy deal.

I don't blame you for your point of view. It's self interest. It is a clash of self interest.

You talk about egos etc. I think there are enough at the ERC. If the ERC was competent there would not be this huge mess.

I've stayed away from this whole debate as i dont really understand a lot of it, its become vile, followed by hatred, followed by 'my dads bigger than your dad and has more cash for me' nonsense.

...its becoming more like Game of Thrones, so many sides to the battle, with their own self-serving agendas and weak alliances based on nothing but shaky words and absolute guff being fed to anyone within earshot who'll listen.

For all our sakes, I hope this is resolved in a manner that allows all of the current 6 unions to compete in a similar tournament to the HEC no later than 2015.

That's about all I have to say on it, oh, that and its telling how many of the battle lines between fans have been drawn depending on your nationality....

LordDowlais wrote:But where will they get all their match officials and the what not for this new competition ?

Well, since they've said they need union approval I guess it'll be from the unions involved.

Beshocked, I am no lover of the WRU and Roger Lewis and his minions, but he has come out and categorically said the if the regions jump ship, they will not play in the Rabo and they will not be entitled to use any referees employed by the unions, he does speaketh with a forked tongue mind you, but he is not the type of person who will back down in a fight either, and trust me this man is a money before anything else type of man, but one thing is, there is one ego and one ego only running the show, if the PRL get their mits on anything you will have a lot of ego's and this is something I do not like the look of.

The thing is the unions are now saying they will compromise on qualification and redistribution of funds. I'm not going to argue they are late in the day with this but at this point it is only the PRL/LNR that are refusing to talk. They have anchored themselves with this BT deal (the PRL anyway) and it may result in a euro competition without the english clubs next year.

Now before anyone says the unions aren't prepared to discuss the RCC the fact is there is no RCC until it is ratified by the IRB and unions (one of which has already said won't support it). There is fault on all sides of the argument and I have no doubt that without the BT/sky deals we could find a common ground. Whatever happens I hope we can find a solution that suits everyone but the fundamental is that it is under union control imo

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:But where will they get all their match officials and the what not for this new competition ?

Well, since they've said they need union approval I guess it'll be from the unions involved.

And that is the crux of it all, an agreement has been signed without the approval of the unions and now we are all in limbo, did the PRL/LNR have any right to sign this deal ? If not then how did this happen ? Has any money changed hands ? The unions will not approve this deal and all the arguments will then be pointless, if the clubs walk away, then what are they going to play in ? So many questions and so little answers, somebody somewhere needs a good old talking to.

LD perfectly valid but Some folk have far too much faith in Unions with unaccountable grandees.

The IRB and Unions are on some pretty shaky legal ground on much of the now debated topics of who controls the club game, which appear to have moved on from the structure and finance issues.

I would be interested if anyone had countered the PRL/LNR claim that they generate 80% of the HC revenue but currently only get 48% and they want 66%.
Has any Union denied those figures ? I haven't seen anything.

standulsterman is this compromise in the Heineken Cup? The English and French clubs have made it clear they don't want the ERC running the competition.

I personally don't want the ERC still in charge. They have shown their incompetence in handling this.

Then if not the erc some other organisation. From my perspective it is unthinkable that the clubs control any new competition. We cannot let rugby be controlled by rich club owners. Sorry but thats fundamental. For all the talk of voting blocks in the erc the French and english en bloc have the majority vote as things stand too.