End in sight to Euro Mess?

First topic message reminder :

Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.


So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

I think it would be the ideal long term plan- but it would have to include promotion and relegation.

The PRL and french league clearly want power of their own clubs because they can be self sufficient.

But if we all just come together we could be one of the strongest sporting leagues on the planet

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Sin e that's an one eyed view point. You love the status quo as it is. Why wouldn't you? The Irish teams are doing very well out of the current system. With auto qualification you have HC every season - it helps revenue, building your fanbase, popularity etc. There's that security that helps attract players too. Also you like the current way the finances are done because it means you get a nice fat juicy pay cheque shared between just 4 clubs which helps too.

Why shouldn't the English and French clubs get a fairer share of the revenue?

I actually think its a good competition and why should the Unions/ERC be punished for developing a great competition?

Anyway:

However, with the Celtic nations and Italy set to compromise on the demands by the English and French for a three-way split of revenues and merit-based qualification from the RaboDirect Pro12, there is an increasing sense that a deal can be struck.

The biggest hurdle to be overcome appears to be that of governance.

Premiership Rugby and its French counterparts insist that their new tournament should be run by the clubs, not the unions, which would be a major departure from the current European Rugby Cup structure.

It is understood, however, that a compromise of each country having one club representative and one union representative on a new 12-man board will be put on the table.

The main area of contention remains the weight of the votes that each country would be allocated.

As for the funding distribution, the Celtic nations have also to agree how money would be split between the Pro12 teams.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/hopes-rise-for-heineken-cup-deal-as-pro12-sides-ready-to-compromise-29657427.html

There are inequalities. You do not see the flaws in the competition. It needs restructure. It can be improved and should be.

Sin e I agree about Perpignan. I don't think they earnt the right to be in the HC on their own merits. Ha ha - it doesn't look like either Sarries or Quins will win anything in Europe at the moment. I don't agree in that type of qualification.

TJ depends how you define fair.

What are the inequalities now and flaws then? How is it to be improved?

TJ wrote: mystiroakey

If I remeber correctly when the Celtic league was originally set up the english and french were invited to join to create a european league but refused to join in.  

I have always liked the idea of a fully intergrated european league structure, even though I think this would be financially detrimental to my club.

The reason I think it would be detrimental is due to the away fixtures. Tigers are usually very well represented and a large number of fans travel to the domestic away games. The HEC away games get a pretty big following too as whilst expensive they are usually unique fixtures. In a proper euro league competition we could be faced with the majority of our away games being in France or Ireland. This makes it expensive to follow and I can see the attendances for these fixtures significantly dropping off, thus generating less revenue for the club.... I concede I could be wrong on this point as I believe that revenue on away fixtures is based on your share of the gate.

But long term what a fantastic league it would be. There would be no need for the HEC at all and could be replaced with a FA Cup knockout style competition that is open to everyone.

We already have the Anglo Welsh cup for the top flight and the British & Irish cup for the 2nd tier in place. It is not that much of a leap to merge the comps and build from there?

The main problem with that would be lack of sustainable teams from the Italicelts as can they afford to run more professional sides? Otherwise it would be a very French & English affair as they have circa 60 proffesional domestic sides now.

"TJ depends how you define fair"




there shouldnt be any need to define fair.


Fair = Fair


and if it was totally fair, every team would have to qualify

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:

Why shouldn't the English and French clubs get a fairer share of the revenue?

beshocked - they get exactly the same as the irish - 4% per team in the HC  they just share it around more.

They should get more.

Secretfly I am referring to practically every Pro12 side. There are 11 in the HC this season. Only one to miss out is Dragons.

Though mainly the Irish in this case because Connacht have never finished above the other 3 Irish regions and have never earned HC rugby through their own merits. With 6,6,8 Connacht would be able to qualify through their own merits.

beshocked, when often I've pointed out England's automatic six positions in HC every year, regardless of any European form or European results, you've often hit back that "England" - ie, Aviva Premiership in general - is simply not your baby.  
Your interest in the AP, you've said, is only the single club in it that you support.   

So, in brief, you claim that 'England's' yearly quota in the HC competition has nothing to do with you on any practical, monetary or emotional level, and that you personally, as a fan of only one team, can think of no advantages that accrues to you by virtue of those yearly guaranteed six places in HC for AP sides.

And yet meanwhile, you so easily assume (or claim to assume) that individual Pro12 fans practically, monetarily and emotionally benefit from having 10 guaranteed places in HC every year.

So, a comment might be that, just like you, we all here have a unique interest in only a segment of the Pro12 overall - and genuinely care little on a practical level for any of the rest of the teams.

And so too, a question arises - do AP sides that don't participate in HC benefit from any funds coming back to AP from the participation of the yearly six sides that do play in HC?

And so too, a question arises - do AP sides that don't participate in HC benefit from any funds coming back to AP from the participation of the yearly six sides that do play in HC?

yes the rfu take some of the money, the prl distribute the rest to all 12 teams. this is why they 6 teams in the HC get less per team than others. Not that they get less from the HC but that its shared around

"The main problem with that would be lack of sustainable teams from the Italicelts as can they afford to run more professional sides? Otherwise it would be a very French & English affair as they have circa 60 proffesional domestic sides now."


that isn't really a problem though is it. The english and french have a bigger population so would have to have more teams..Teams have to be based on available supporters..




Many people say that the welsh aren't really part of the PL, well the truth is they have more teams per capita of population than the english do .

mystiroakey wrote:"TJ depends how you define fair"




there shouldnt be any need to define fair.


Fair = Fair


and if it was totally fair, every team would have to qualify

Every team? so no gurenteed 6 places for the english clubs? By merit right now they wouldn't have 6 in it would they ;-)

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"TJ depends how you define fair"




there shouldnt be any need to define fair.


Fair = Fair


and if it was totally fair, every team would have to qualify

Every team?  so no gurenteed 6 places for the english clubs?  By merit right now they wouldn't have 6 in it would they ;-)

fine by me. as i said no guaranteed places

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e because of course you know exactly what the PRL want. You can read their minds can't you? You know exactly how negotiations are going.....

Its pretty obvious what they want. Last time (in 2007) they (with the LNR) got a seat on the Board of ERC - given to them by their Unions.


beshocked - it seems that due to our history, Irish people are very good at reading other people and are very good negotiators.

sensible business and investment decisions recently, less so.

the reason irfu are playing ball with the other celtic unions is because of the parlous state of their finances, losing eur4.5m per annum at current run rate (i have quoted irfu 2012-13 annual report before). they are indeed in the same tight financial spot that SRU and WRR/WRR find themselves.

TJ wrote: mystiroakey

If I remeber correctly when the Celtic league was originally set up the english and french were invited to join to create a european league but refused to join in.  

have to say TJ you do have a pretty good sense of humour.

Secretfly it's not the same as having the same 6 English sides every season.

It's not like being in a competition for 17 straight seasons which of course also increases one's chances of winning a tournament.

Of course my own club comes first sure but I like the AP. I do watch games other than just my own side - admittedly not live but if they are on tv I will probably watch them.

Well yes there are funds that come from the HC but most of the revenue and drawing power in the HC comes from the English and French clubs.




http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/erc/about/index.php

This is the current revenue distribution in Euros.

Scotland get 4.9m - that's 2.45m for Glasgow and 2.45m for Edinburgh.

Wales get 4.9 million - that's 1.225m

England get 10.8 million - that's 900k for each English club.

Ireland get 6.6 million - that's 1.65 million for the 4 Irish clubs.

France get 12.1 million - that's about 865k per French club.

Italy get 4.6 million - that's 2.3 million for Treviso and £2.3 million for Zebre.

Do you see the financial imbalance? The Pro12 gets almost 50% of the revenue though most of the revenue is generated by the AP and Top 14 clubs.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly it's not the same as having the same 6 English sides every season.

It's not like being in a competition for 17 straight seasons which of course also increases one's chances of winning a tournament.

Of course my own club comes first sure but I like the AP. I do watch games other than just my own side - admittedly not live but if they are on tv I will probably watch them.

Well yes there are funds that come from the HC but most of the revenue and drawing power in the HC comes from the English and French clubs.




ercrugby.com/eng/erc/about/index.php

This is the current revenue distribution in Euros.

Scotland get 4.9m - that's 2.45m for Glasgow and 2.45m for Edinburgh.

Wales get 4.9 million - that's 1.225m

England get 10.8 million - that's 900k for each English club.

Ireland get 6.6 million - that's 1.65 million for the 4 Irish clubs.

France get 12.1 million - that's about 865k per French club.

Italy get 4.6 million - that's 2.3 million for Treviso and £2.3 million for Zebre.

Do you see the financial imbalance? The Pro12 gets almost 50% of the revenue though most of the revenue is generated by the AP and Top 14 clubs.

IIRC connacht unfortunately receive half the amount of the big 3 irish sides. connacht are designated a developmental side and allocated less money by IRFU.

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e because of course you know exactly what the PRL want. You can read their minds can't you? You know exactly how negotiations are going.....

Its pretty obvious what they want. Last time (in 2007) they (with the LNR) got a seat on the Board of ERC - given to them by their Unions.


beshocked - it seems that due to our history, Irish people are very good at reading other people and are very good negotiators.

sensible business and investment decisions recently, less so.

the reason irfu are playing ball with the other celtic unions is because of the parlous state of their finances, losing eur4.5m per annum at current run rate (i have quoted irfu 2012-13 annual report before). they are indeed in the same tight financial spot that SRU and WRR/WRR find themselves.

Did I claim we were good businessmen? I claimed we are good at reading other people. Because of our size, we can't bully people.

They will only lose 4.5m per annum if they fail to sell tickets. What you refer to as 'losing' is the failure of the IRFU to sell all of their 10 year tickets IN ADVANCE. Its a bit soon to claim that they won't sell them all at this stage as they still have them to sell.

Bearing in mind that they owe NOTHING for their 4 year old stadium, they are not in such a bad position.

TJ wrote:

And so too, a question arises - do AP sides that don't participate in HC benefit from any funds coming back to AP from the participation of the yearly six sides that do play in HC?

yes  the rfu take some of the money, the prl distribute the rest to all 12 teams.  this is why they 6 teams in the HC get less per team than others.  Not that they get less from the HC but that its shared around

The point is the PRL have a responsibility to all 12 AP sides - and that all 12 AP sides gain from the automatic 6 AP HC entries (however little, however much).

Pro12 doesn't operate so cleanly because it is already a 'European' league and has to deal with four distinct (PRL syle) admin units in one league.  Welsh HC money is not distributed evenly to the other nations in Pro12 - Irish HC money doesn't get into Italian hands.

Nor should the Pro12 nations divide HC money equally, as each nation is a stand alone entity - just like France is, just like England is.  To call for one admin body to evenly distribute funding across the four Pro12 nations (the only viable tool for turning four nations into one 'PRL style' league) is to attack the autonomy of each of those nations and interfere with International apirations of each of those countries.

There can never be complete equality between the three big European leagues as they now stand.  Proof of that already exits even between the English and French leagues themselves.
AP have the same number of automatic HC entries to a league that has two more teams in it.  Each side in Top14 play four more games each in a dometic season - and it's a league that is already talking about extending that number to 16!

So....should France really have to settle for only six automatic places in the New European competition when it is structured so differently to AP?  

Or rather, should we accept that France wants to participate in a European event yet gets to be so casual in its capping limits and indeed in the number of sides it has in its domestic league.  Maybe part of the new deal should be demanding they cut two sides from their domestic league and not pay their players so much???

God, I'd have had so many counter-juicy demands of my own had I been at that negotiating table

Two errors in that.
1) The money is generated by the product - that is the HC. It is not mainly generated by the AP and top 14. without the Rabo teams there is no european cup and no income. As for the english and french clubs having most of the drawing power - nonsense - the Irish do.
2) all teams competing get 4% of the revenue. the rabo unions get under half as they have under half the teams. Glasgow and Edinburgh get no money direct - they get a budget from the SRU.

the only real anomoly is that the SRU get 3 shares not two. that can be addressed

apart from that ( the french should get the extra 4%) all the unions get the same amount per entrant. 4% each

Do stop making stuff up

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e because of course you know exactly what the PRL want. You can read their minds can't you? You know exactly how negotiations are going.....

Its pretty obvious what they want. Last time (in 2007) they (with the LNR) got a seat on the Board of ERC - given to them by their Unions.


beshocked - it seems that due to our history, Irish people are very good at reading other people and are very good negotiators.

sensible business and investment decisions recently, less so.

the reason irfu are playing ball with the other celtic unions is because of the parlous state of their finances, losing eur4.5m per annum at current run rate (i have quoted irfu 2012-13 annual report before). they are indeed in the same tight financial spot that SRU and WRR/WRR find themselves.

Did I claim we were good businessmen? I claimed we are good at reading other people. Because of our size, we can't bully people.

They will only lose 4.5m per annum if they fail to sell tickets. What you refer to as 'losing' is the failure of the IRFU to sell all of their 10 year tickets IN ADVANCE. Its a bit soon to claim that they won't sell them all at this stage as they still have them to sell.

Bearing in mind that they owe NOTHING for their 4 year old stadium, they are not in such a bad position.

thats not accurate sin. they actually made a profit this year when including the fact that they have sold about 50% of the 10 year seats lasting until 2021/12. the eur4.5m is the underlying profitability (or loss in this case) of the overall union excluding one-off items like selling 10 yr seats etc.

the irfu are showing solidarity with the rest of the unions in the long term interests of european rugby as a whole. they are not prepared to beggar their neighbours

TJ wrote:the irfu are showing solidarity with the rest of the unions in the long term interests of european rugby as a whole. they are not prepared to beggar their neighbours

or themselves, thats my point. solidarity schmolidarity. everyones has been doing what they thought could get them the most money and best nation rugby product. and in this instance the smaller unions recognised that standing together was a stronger negotiating position.

and that looked credible (even if still very worrying about their finances without a european competition) until wru and sru ceo's stated that "no guaranteed qualification for anyone" was acceptable. then it appeared to outside observers like resolve was failing and cracks in the united stand were appearing.

you are wrong on that quins. the solidarity is about more than just holding out for the best deal for themselves, if the irfu had joined the RCC it would go ahead and the Irish would be better of finacially. fortunatly the irfu understand its not all about money

i was interested to note that it is bruce craig according to the OP who is leading the PRL side of any negotiations. its not as if he is a conciliatory figure. in other words, i would be very surprised if the prl "bluff has been called" etc.

we all see what we want to see  

Thats Bruce Craig who until recently had refused to negotiate with anyone about anything? Of course their bluff has been called and their RCC is dead in the water and they know it. thats why he is now appearing to want to negoitiate as their position is completely untenable. If Craig continued to play hardball the PRL would be left with nothing. No european cup, no cross border comp - just their own league

Interesting about who provides the biggest draw.

More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).

I think this can be explained by the way Irish provincial supporters will always watch each other's games, whereas in France & England, the supporters are only interested in their own club.

Also interesting is that Munster sells a lot of jerseys in the Leicester & Northampton area (from an article posted here which said that Munster were the top selling club jersey in the world).

TJ wrote:you are wrong on that quins.  the solidarity is about more than just holding out for the best deal for themselves,  if the irfu had joined the RCC it would go ahead and the Irish would be better of finacially.  fortunatly the irfu understand its not all about money

best deal financially and for their national rugby product. didnt say it was just about finances for unions. i agree the financial incentive is strong to join rcc, but they were indeed worried about implications for their union's power (and hence their ability to control the national team players in irish club teams, etc) of simply caving to the prl/lnr proposal.

Leinster are undoubtedly the biggest draw and a "european cup" without them is nothing. The scots and the Italians have a big thanks to say to the irfu for not jumping ship.

Sin é wrote:Interesting about who provides the biggest draw.

More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).

I think this can be explained by the way Irish provincial supporters will always watch each other's games, whereas in France & England, the supporters are only interested in their own club.

Also interesting is that Munster sells a lot of jerseys in the Leicester & Northampton area (from an article posted here which said that Munster were the top selling club jersey in the world).

watched where?

oh yes you think matchday attendance drives the money in professional sports.

big red herring.

its all about TV. and what broadcasters are willing to pay based on what they think the market demand is for that product (euro club rugby) in each country.

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:you are wrong on that quins.  the solidarity is about more than just holding out for the best deal for themselves,  if the irfu had joined the RCC it would go ahead and the Irish would be better of finacially.  fortunatly the irfu understand its not all about money

best deal financially and for their national rugby product. didnt say it was just about finances for unions. i agree the financial incentive is strong to join rcc, but they were indeed worried about implications for their union's power (and hence their ability to control the national team players in irish club teams, etc) of simply caving to the prl/lnr proposal.

its also about standing alongside the Scots and Italians - who in turn have been good friends to the Irish.

quinsforever wrote:

its all about TV. and what broadcasters are willing to pay based on what they think the market demand is for that product (euro club rugby) in each country.

indeed that is true - but the product sold is the european cup and to have that product requires the Rabo unions. the RCC is worth nothing now as itis not a european cup.

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:the irfu are showing solidarity with the rest of the unions in the long term interests of european rugby as a whole. they are not prepared to beggar their neighbours

or themselves, thats my point. solidarity schmolidarity. everyones has been doing what they thought could get them the most money and best nation rugby product. and in this instance the smaller unions recognised that standing together was a stronger negotiating position.

and that looked credible (even if still very worrying about their finances without a european competition) until wru and sru ceo's stated that "no guaranteed qualification for anyone" was acceptable. then it appeared to outside observers like resolve was failing and cracks in the united stand were appearing.

So let me get this straight then.  Most up to date synopsis of national positions in this debate are:

The English want to make Irish sides sweat more in Pro12 (with or without their cotton wool tracksuits on'em) so that they'll be tired come the HC?
The French want to kill Irish sides off so that more 'Sextons' will agree to go to French teams (Racing Metro boss alluded to how infuriatingly home-birdish the Irish players tended to be even when tempted with bigo buckies?)
The WRU now see an opening for weakening Irish sides more, in that less guaranteed HC slots for them sees HC average potential monies wilt and the privately subsidised Welsh sides might rise in their wake?
The SRU now think their sides are better than the Irish anyway so natural selection is their reasoning?

The Italians still like us because we keep fighting for them - and they're not strong enough yet to stab us in the back!

So the queskin for Europe?  Why'ya all hate us so much??

its also about standing alongside the Scots and Italians - who in turn have been good friends to the Irish

and the welsh !  

Do you really need that to be answered? Plenty of reasons from " wea re two strong to play in the 6N to attempting to sell 6N games to sky to the threats to ruin the european cup to get their way.

the SRU are desperately trying to keep pro rugby alive in scotland. thats their motivation. the PRL propsals would mean an end to pro rugby in scotland

TJ wrote:Two errors in that.  
1) The money is generated by the product - that is the HC.  It is not mainly generated by the AP and top 14.  without the Rabo teams there is no european cup and no income.  As for the english and french clubs having most of the drawing power - nonsense - the Irish do.
2) all teams competing get 4% of the revenue.  the rabo unions get under half as they have under half the teams.  Glasgow and Edinburgh get no money direct - they get a budget from the SRU.  

the only real anomoly is that the SRU get 3 shares not two.  that can be addressed

apart from that ( the french should get the extra 4%) all the unions get the same amount per entrant.  4% each

Do stop making stuff up

You could switch it the other way. Without the English and French sides there is also no European cup. It's just the Pro12 again without them.

The Irish have the most drawing power? Based on what exactly?

Not making stuff up - it's on the ERC website.



http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2011-12/rugby/story/147870.html

This rich list was two years ago.

alive555 wrote:its also about standing alongside the Scots and Italians - who in turn have been good friends to the Irish

and the welsh !  

true. Sorry.

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e because of course you know exactly what the PRL want. You can read their minds can't you? You know exactly how negotiations are going.....

Its pretty obvious what they want. Last time (in 2007) they (with the LNR) got a seat on the Board of ERC - given to them by their Unions.


beshocked - it seems that due to our history, Irish people are very good at reading other people and are very good negotiators.

sensible business and investment decisions recently, less so.

the reason irfu are playing ball with the other celtic unions is because of the parlous state of their finances, losing eur4.5m per annum at current run rate (i have quoted irfu 2012-13 annual report before). they are indeed in the same tight financial spot that SRU and WRR/WRR find themselves.

Did I claim we were good businessmen? I claimed we are good at reading other people. Because of our size, we can't bully people.

They will only lose 4.5m per annum if they fail to sell tickets. What you refer to as 'losing' is the failure of the IRFU to sell all of their 10 year tickets IN ADVANCE. Its a bit soon to claim that they won't sell them all at this stage as they still have them to sell.

Bearing in mind that they owe NOTHING for their 4 year old stadium, they are not in such a bad position.

thats not accurate sin. they actually made a profit this year when including the fact that they have sold about 50% of the 10 year seats lasting until 2021/12. the eur4.5m is the underlying profitability (or loss in this case) of the overall union excluding one-off items like selling 10 yr seats etc.

They made a profit this year because Puma bought themselves out of their jersey deal.

In the words of Tom Grace, IRFU Treasurer:

"The most striking development of 2012/13 was the impact of the current economic climate on our ten-year ticket renewal which saw just 50% of our ten-year ticket holders renewing.

"Thankfully the Union has been conservative in its approach and we are now in a net cash position. However, as we do not have sufficient cash reserves to cover future cash deficits we now intend to borrow against future sales of ten-year tickets and corporate boxes.

"The Union will continue to develop the game but cash is tight and the support from fans is increasingly important in protecting their investment in their game.

"The entire game, be it at international, provincial, club or schools level, can only function if we continue to enjoy packed houses at the Aviva Stadium.

"If there is one thing to be learned from this financial year it is that supporting our national team at the Aviva enables the IRFU to continue to make significant funds available to professional and domestic games."

He talks about selling tickets to international games - he doesn't mention no Heineken Cup.

when does this all come to an end now?

beshocked - the money goes to the unions who shar it around as they see fitt. the scots teams do not get it all, like the english its sperad wider than the 2 or 6 teams who earn it.. its the smae basic amount per team entered goes to the unions. Its not our fault you give a lot of yor share to teams who don't earn it and its simply wrong to say the scots teams get it all - they do not.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:the irfu are showing solidarity with the rest of the unions in the long term interests of european rugby as a whole. they are not prepared to beggar their neighbours

or themselves, thats my point. solidarity schmolidarity. everyones has been doing what they thought could get them the most money and best nation rugby product. and in this instance the smaller unions recognised that standing together was a stronger negotiating position.

and that looked credible (even if still very worrying about their finances without a european competition) until wru and sru ceo's stated that "no guaranteed qualification for anyone" was acceptable. then it appeared to outside observers like resolve was failing and cracks in the united stand were appearing.

So let me get this straight then.  Most up to date synopsis of national positions in this debate are:

The English want to make Irish sides sweat more in Pro12 (with or without their cotton wool tracksuits on'em) so that they'll be tired come the HC? yes thats fine, but not as important as the english sides want more money
The French want to kill Irish sides off so that more 'Sextons' will agree to go to French teams (Racing Metro boss alluded to how infuriatingly home-birdish the Irish players tended to be even when tempted with bigo buckies?) ha - who knows what the french (club or union) agenda is
The WRU now see an opening for weakening Irish sides more, in that less guaranteed HC slots for them sees HC average potential monies wilt and the privately subsidised Welsh sides might rise in their wake?
The SRU now think their sides are better than the Irish anyway so natural selection is their reasoning?

The Italians still like us because we keep fighting for them - and they're not strong enough yet to stab us in the back!

So the queskin for Europe?  Why'ya all hate us so much??

we dont hate ya SF. we've spent so long being hated by everyone else, that we reserve our sporting hatred for the Aussies...

TJ wrote:Leinster are undoubtedly the biggest draw and a "european cup" without them is nothing.  The scots and the Italians have a big thanks to say to the irfu for not jumping ship.

I think 4 times HC champions Toulouse who have a much bigger revenue than Leinster might have something to say about that!

Biltong wrote:when does this all come to an end now?

the HC may get resolved...this thread's going to go on forever and ever....  

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting about who provides the biggest draw.

More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).

I think this can be explained by the way Irish provincial supporters will always watch each other's games, whereas in France & England, the supporters are only interested in their own club.

Also interesting is that Munster sells a lot of jerseys in the Leicester & Northampton area (from an article posted here which said that Munster were the top selling club jersey in the world).

watched where?

oh yes you think matchday attendance drives the money in professional sports.

big red herring.

its all about TV. and what broadcasters are willing to pay based on what they think the market demand is for that product (euro club rugby) in each country.

Wasn't talking about match day attendance (though it is relevant). I'm talking about Sky's viewers of the two finals. Sky got more viewers for the two Irish teams than they got for the Irish v English team.

Must look up what the viewership of the final was last season.

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:Leinster are undoubtedly the biggest draw and a "european cup" without them is nothing.  The scots and the Italians have a big thanks to say to the irfu for not jumping ship.

I think 4 times HC champions Toulouse who have a much bigger revenue than Leinster might have something to say about that!

true - the big draws are a small number of teams. Leinster, toulouse, Toulon. Leicester perhpas.

sin e

"He talks about selling tickets to international games - he doesn't mention no Heineken Cup."

go to the next page of the treasurer's report. last 4 paragraphs:

"However the future outlook has in my opinion disimproved
significantly"

"In my Report last year I referred to two of the key risks facing
the Union as being uncertainty surrounding general economic
conditions and the future of competitions in which Irish teams
compete. Both of these issues continue to be at the forefront of
our thinking."

TJ wrote:beshocked - the money goes to the unions who shar it around as they see fitt.  the scots teams do not get it all, like the english its sperad wider than the 2 or 6 teams who earn it..  its the smae basic amount per team entered goes to the unions.  Its not our fault you give a lot of yor share to teams who don't earn it and its simply wrong to say the scots teams get it all - they do not.

You keep talking about unions. It is English and French clubs who are in the HC currently. Scotland does not play in the HC - Glasgow and Edinburgh do.

England does not play in the HC. Why should for example Leicester get far less money than Edinburgh when they generate far more?

quinsforever wrote:

Biltong wrote:when does this all come to an end now?

the HC may get resolved...this thread's going to go on forever and ever....  

 

when is the deadline for the decision making?

Biltong wrote:when does this all come to an end now?

I did try to take it back to looking to the future and seeing wehat solutions are possible. Its just galling when people keep on harping about the same false premise. Its a basic fact that all unions get the same mount of money per team entered in the HC ( bar the scots who get a bit more) the unions then use that money in differnet ways. In scotland it goes into a central pot which is then used to support the game at all levels. It does not all go to glasgow and Edinburgh

Biltong wrote:when does this all come to an end now?

On page 1 I wrote this...

So the battle for the future of european rugby may be coming to an end, but the battle for who gets to claim victory is only just beginning. As for the conflict over the causes of the battle - I doubt that will ever end...

We could actually start all over from there  

beshocked wrote:

Not making stuff up - it's on the ERC website.



http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2011-12/rugby/story/147870.html

This rich list was two years ago.

Top 15 Clubs (Revenue)

1. Toulouse
2. Clermont Auvergne
3. Leicester Tigers
4. Stade Francais
5. Racing Metro 92
6. Toulon
7. Brive
8. Montpellier
9. Biarritz Olympique
10. Perpignan
11. Northampton Saints
12. Bayonne
13. Castres Olympique
14. Harlequins
15. Gloucester

Top 15 Clubs (match attendance average)

1. Leicester Tigers
2. Toulouse
3. Clermont Auvergne
4. Munster
5. Bayonne
6. Leinster
7. Toulon
8. Northampton Saints
9. Perpignan
10. Gloucester
11. Harlequins
12. Montpellier
13. La Rochelle
14. Bath
15. Stade Francais

What does that say to you though, beshocked. Only anomoly in those two lists that I see is that Leinster and Munster have won the last five from eight HCs and they're not doing it on the strength of their revenues - a list neither get onto. Perhaps the lists say revenue doesn't always buy success. But that's been the PRL argument to date, hasn't it? Even more money from the pot is the only way?

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:when does this all come to an end now?

I did try to take it back to looking to the future and seeing wehat solutions are possible.  Its just galling when people keep on harping about the same false premise.  Its a basic fact that all unions get the same mount of money per team entered in the HC ( bar the scots who get a bit more)  the unions then use that money in differnet ways.  In scotland it goes into a central pot which is then used to support the game at all levels.  It does not all go to glasgow and Edinburgh

You guys are making my head hurt.  

I meant the negotiations.