End in sight to Euro Mess?

by VietGwentRevisited Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.

So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

by Sin é Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:55 pm

quinforever, you just don't get that the ERC is a company created by the IRB to run European Rugby.

You also don't seem to realise that the ERC are in the same building as the IRB in Dublin, so I'd imagine that the ERC have the support of the IRB and would definately have run that one past them.

(For the record, the 6Ns company is also in the same building as the ERC). Very Happy

by quinsforever Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:55 pm

sin e

"Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers."

after irfu have pulled out of wrc - you think so? maybe you should stop posting after 6pm?

by Guest Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:56 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.
Well, the PRL & LNR seem to have survived all the criticism from their fans for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, Rugby Unions usually lose money in world cup years as they don't host autumn internationals.

Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers.
i would love nothing more than for your gambit to be right sin e. would redefine the club/union landscape in favour of professionally run clubs in a way that the prl/lnr could not even have dreamed of in 20 years.

i'm with you on this one.

You seem a tad upset. So the destruction of the Unions is something you would love Shocked

Not going to happen of course. There will be a European contest, and the Celts, and Italians will be at the World Cup. PRL/LNR may have a bloodied nose though. Time will tell Very Happy

by mystiroakey Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:58 pm

the 6 nations is going to have more spice next year thats for sure!!

by quinsforever Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:58 pm

Sin é wrote:quinforever, you just don't get that the ERC is a company created by the IRB to run European Rugby.

You also don't seem to realise that the ERC are in the same building as the IRB in Dublin, so I'd imagine that the ERC have the support of the IRB and would definately have run that one past them.

(For the record, the 6Ns company is also in the same building as the ERC).

this is definitely the funniest thing i have read all day. no question.

whatever it takes to give you comfort sin e. lets forget that the irb conspicuously failed to endorse the erc, choosing instead to push for a "truly pan-european tournament". did that subtlety pass you by mate?

by nth Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:00 am

Sin é wrote:
hawalsh wrote:I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but these are the ones that have been provided on this site before:

The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports. A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source:http:// www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased. But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view.

These figures obviously don't include the French audience, which is far greater because it's not pay-TV. Last year 2.5m French tuned in to watch Toulon play Sale in just a forgone conclusion pool match.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/6263/nick-cain-toulon-are-a-triumph-for-french-tv-as-well/
Its remarkable that two Irish teams would get that many viewers in the UK (ROI is not included in Barb's figures). not remarkable given that NI's are

Also worth noting that more people in the UK watched Munster v Biarritz than Wasps v Tigers the following year in the UK. I wonder whether Munster or Biarritz were the big draw in the UK? must have been Biarritz, because 2 years later Munster featured again and it was the 2nd lowest audience within 10 years

Also interesting to see how the numbers fall when an Irish team isn't involved (i.e., Toulouse v Biarritz falls to 161K). so why was Munster's final 2 years before even lower? That it was an all French final and these are only UK figures is the more likely answer

Edit, do you have the figures for the final between Toulon & Clermont (with Jonny play, there would be big interest in the UK).[/b][/b]

The post of yours Hawalsh quoted said

Sin é wrote:More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).

have you got a source for that what I assume is ROI data given that it doesn't match the BARB figures?

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:02 am

Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.
Well, the PRL & LNR seem to have survived all the criticism from their fans for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, Rugby Unions usually lose money in world cup years as they don't host autumn internationals.

Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers.
i would love nothing more than for your gambit to be right sin e. would redefine the club/union landscape in favour of professionally run clubs in a way that the prl/lnr could not even have dreamed of in 20 years.

i'm with you on this one.
You seem a tad upset. So the destruction of the Unions is something you would love

Not going to happen of course. There will be a European contest, and the Celts, and Italians will be at the World Cup. PRL/LNR may have a bloodied nose though. Time will tell

no, i would only welcome it if they do what sin e is suggesting, as any such behaviour surely shows that the management needs replacing? any display of judgement that abominable requires that those in charge be replaced. or do you think that a fup-up of that magnitude should lead to those reponsible at irfu/sru (if they are the ones sin e refers to) staying in charge?

i dont think its going to happen either. but if it does, unions will have signed their death warrants in several countries.

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:04 am

.[/quote]You seem a tad upset. So the destruction of the Unions is something you would love

Not going to happen of course. There will be a European contest, and the Celts, and Italians will be at the World Cup. PRL/LNR may have a bloodied nose though. Time will tell [/quote]not upset at all. just dealing with an "asserted" article "tomorrow" which makes utterly irrational and uneconomic suggestions, in the manner which it deserves.

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:06 am

mystiroakey wrote:the 6 nations is going to have more spice next year thats for sure!!

yessiree. only match that is even going to come close to celts v england, is ireland v wales post BOD saga.

by Guest Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:10 am

quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.
Well, the PRL & LNR seem to have survived all the criticism from their fans for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, Rugby Unions usually lose money in world cup years as they don't host autumn internationals.

Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers.
i would love nothing more than for your gambit to be right sin e. would redefine the club/union landscape in favour of professionally run clubs in a way that the prl/lnr could not even have dreamed of in 20 years.

i'm with you on this one.
You seem a tad upset. So the destruction of the Unions is something you would love

Not going to happen of course. There will be a European contest, and the Celts, and Italians will be at the World Cup. PRL/LNR may have a bloodied nose though. Time will tell
no, i would only welcome it if they do what sin e is suggesting, as any such behaviour surely shows that the management needs replacing? any display of judgement that abominable requires that those in charge be replaced. or do you think that a fup-up of that magnitude should lead to those reponsible at irfu/sru (if they are the ones sin e refers to) staying in charge?

i dont think its going to happen either. but if it does, unions will have signed their death warrants in several countries.

To be fair, I think the same could be said about the PRL/LNR attitude toward the HEC. They cite financial reasons, as does this article.

Don't actually believe if it were to happen that it would be the end of the Unions though. In fact, according to the article, the threat of not entering the World Cup is more about their survival.
Anyway, if the HEC negotiations fail then sure the RFU can just pay for the Celt's, and Italians, to enter. Problem solved Very Happy

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:15 am

of all the non-credible threats i have heard recently, anyone pulling out of WRC2015 in protest at the terms offered to them in a legitimate club competition is quite simply the most non-credible. bar none. makes me, TJ and mystiroakey look like kofi anann FFS.

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:19 am

Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:they have already got there money Sin e. that happened last year and yes they had the clout to pull of that threat and it worked!
You seriously don't think they Celts, and Italians, together don't have clout? I don't think the article is saying they are threatening to leave the WRC out of protest, but rather due to loss of revenue.

BUT NO-ONE IS PROPOSING THEY LOSE REVENUE!

by Guest Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:20 am

quinsforever wrote:of all the non-credible threats i have heard recently, anyone pulling out of WRC2015 in protest at the terms offered to them in a legitimate club competition is quite simply the most non-credible. bar none. makes me, TJ and mystiroakey look like kofi anann FFS.

And in the words of Kofi Annan:

"We have to choose between a global market driven only by calculations of short-term profit, and one which has a human face."

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:21 am

i would like to propose a new tla (three letter acronym) for general usage, if it isnt in circulation already.

JFC - clue, its JC with an F in the middle.

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:23 am

Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:of all the non-credible threats i have heard recently, anyone pulling out of WRC2015 in protest at the terms offered to them in a legitimate club competition is quite simply the most non-credible. bar none. makes me, TJ and mystiroakey look like kofi anann FFS.
And in the words of Kofi Annan:

"We have to choose between a global market driven only by calculations of short-term profit, and one which has a human face."

where, on this spectrum would sit an IRFU pulling out of WRC? self-harming isnt really covered in the quote...

by Sin é Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:25 am

nth wrote:
Sin é wrote:
hawalsh wrote:I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but these are the ones that have been provided on this site before:

The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports. A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source:http:// www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased. But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view.

These figures obviously don't include the French audience, which is far greater because it's not pay-TV. Last year 2.5m French tuned in to watch Toulon play Sale in just a forgone conclusion pool match.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/6263/nick-cain-toulon-are-a-triumph-for-french-tv-as-well/
Its remarkable that two Irish teams would get that many viewers in the UK (ROI is not included in Barb's figures). not remarkable given that NI's are To get those kind of figures, every household in NI would need to be watching that match, which I doubt very much as rugby would be very much the 3rd sport in NI.

Also worth noting that more people in the UK watched Munster v Biarritz than Wasps v Tigers the following year in the UK. I wonder whether Munster or Biarritz were the big draw in the UK? must have been Biarritz, because 2 years later Munster featured again and it was the 2nd lowest audience within 10 years
Actually, the Munster v Toulouse match clashed with Rep of Ireland playing Serbia in Croke Park (first match that Trap was in charge of) and the European Song Contest!

Also interesting to see how the numbers fall when an Irish team isn't involved (i.e., Toulouse v Biarritz falls to 161K). so why was Munster's final 2 years before even lower? That it was an all French final and these are only UK figures is the more likely answer
So, look forward to a lack of interest in the frango comp when it happens then.

Edit, do you have the figures for the final between Toulon & Clermont (with Jonny play, there would be big interest in the UK).[/b][/b]
The post of yours Hawalsh quoted said
Sin é wrote:More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).
have you got a source for that what I assume is ROI data given that it doesn't match the BARB figures?

I don't have a source. I remember reading it in some article.

by Guest Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:26 am

quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:of all the non-credible threats i have heard recently, anyone pulling out of WRC2015 in protest at the terms offered to them in a legitimate club competition is quite simply the most non-credible. bar none. makes me, TJ and mystiroakey look like kofi anann FFS.
And in the words of Kofi Annan:

"We have to choose between a global market driven only by calculations of short-term profit, and one which has a human face."
where, on this spectrum would sit an IRFU pulling out of WRC? self-harming isnt really covered in the quote...

If the negotiations fail then the harm is already done. Just a case of doing what's best to recover...

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:01 am

Sin é wrote:I've heard it mentioned in the last few weeks that an option could be for the Celtic Unions & Italy to withdraw from the Rugby World Cup.

fortunately for you sin e, the times article alleges nothing of the sort...i post this so no-one else wastes any time on this crap

"The Celtic unions will demand a greater share of revenues from the 2015 World Cup in England as compensation if talks over the future of European club rugby collapse.
The Welsh, Scottish and Irish unions have also discussed delaying the signing of their World Cup participation agreements until the future is resolved to their satisfaction. This has to be done by December.
They insist this is not a threat to boycott the World Cup in two years’ time, which they accept would make no sense. However, they are adamant that they cannot afford to lose the income from Europe without serious ramifications for their domestic games. Their only recourse would be to have the shortfall made up from RWC and International Rugby Board coffers. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!! SOMEONE ELSES INTERNATIONAL GAME SUBSIDISING CELTIC CLUB GAMES?!?
“If Europe isn’t solved with a fair solution for the Celtic countries the World Cup will have to be looked at from the point of view of the money it generates,” a source said.
“We would have to do this otherwise the game in Ireland, Wales and Scotland would cease to exist. Ultimately this is about the survival of rugby in the Celtic unions. This is not an idle threat. It is a ‘needs must’ position.”
The Celtic unions and Italy believe their stance strengthens their position in negotiations over the future of whatever tournament replaces the Heineken Cup. An official of one union confirmed: “We have not signed and part of the reason is because we want to see what unfolds.”
English and French clubs have organised their own new competition, the Rugby Champions Cup, and invited other countries to join them with promises of increased revenue from a broadcasting deal with BT Sport.
However, no hard and fast figures have been provided, which has meant negotiations have been slow.
Dragging the World Cup into the row over Europe opens a second front in the dispute and illustrates the high stakes that are being played for and the concern in those countries about what happens next. They see a pan-European tournament as vital to their viability, both economically and from a playing perspective. They regard the dispute over Europe not just as one of money and the qualification process, but ultimately for control of the game.
“People are very nervous about things not working out,” the official continued. “The biggest threat to our future is the demise of the Heineken Cup. This is about us remaining competitive.” Without it, he added, the consequences for the Six Nations could be profound and national teams, in the long run, would suffer.
This latest twist demonstrates the difficult position in which the RFU now finds itself, appeasing both the clubs in the Aviva Premiership and also its fellow unions. It is an extremely delicate balancing act.
Ian Ritchie, the chief executive at Twickenham, has been at the heart of negotiations and, it is understood, had yet another meeting with Premier Rugby yesterday. A further meeting between the RFU and the WRU, SRU and IRFU is due to take place on Friday. England and France are proposing a 20-team tournament, but the Celts do not think this is viable and want a format of at least 24 particpants.
There is disquiet among the Celtic nations that the RFU has not publicly distanced itself from the proposed “breakaway”. Ritchie, however, sees quiet “shuttle diplomacy” as the best way forward.
There is an increasing sense of urgency. The WRU and the Welsh regions need to know where they stand sooner rather than later, otherwise
they risk losing players such as Sam Warburton, Leigh Halfpenny and Jonathan Davies to French clubs.
Between them Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy received €21 million (about £18.5 million) last year from the Heineken Cup. The World Cup in France in 2007 made £122 million and the 2011 tournament, in New Zealand, yielded £92 million, the revenues funding development of the global game. The 2015 tournament is expected to raise much more than that in France.

by quinsforever Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:10 am

this article makes it look like the prl/lnr are not compromising on their demands in the euro club arena. hate to say i told you so...

by Sin é Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:18 am

I don't think I claimed that they were going to boycott the World Cup. I said I heard it mentioned that it is something they could do. Obviously the comment must have been made as they declare that they are not threatening to boycott it. (but they are getting the thought out there Wink

)

by Sin é Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:21 am

quinsforever wrote:this article makes it look like the prl/lnr are not compromising on their demands in the euro club arena. hate to say i told you so...

It looks like the PRL are doing all the running on this one. No mention of the LNR.

by alive555 Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:43 am

quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:they have already got there money Sin e. that happened last year and yes they had the clout to pull of that threat and it worked!
You seriously don't think they Celts, and Italians, together don't have clout? I don't think the article is saying they are threatening to leave the WRC out of protest, but rather due to loss of revenue.
BUT NO-ONE IS PROPOSING THEY LOSE REVENUE!

Oh dear .

If you are competing to keep players you need to ensure that you get as much of the available cash as possible RELATIVE to your competitors

If you get relatively less in the future than you do today guess what ?

You lose competitiveness Doh

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:16 am

"They insist this is not a threat to boycott the World Cup in two years’ time, which they accept would make no sense."

ok they are not as insane as sin e makes them out to be!

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:18 am

alive555 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:they have already got there money Sin e. that happened last year and yes they had the clout to pull of that threat and it worked!
You seriously don't think they Celts, and Italians, together don't have clout? I don't think the article is saying they are threatening to leave the WRC out of protest, but rather due to loss of revenue.
BUT NO-ONE IS PROPOSING THEY LOSE REVENUE!
Oh dear .

If you are competing to keep players you need to ensure that you get as much of the available cash as possible RELATIVE to your competitors

If you get relatively less in the future than you do today guess what ?

You lose competitiveness

and that lad is the problem.. The Money needs to start going elsewhere!!! Nz and co need to stop trying to yam up all the small pie we have. And maybe start making some MONEY domestically with a sound and profitable business model. rather than taking money out the development of the game pool!

by nth Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:22 am

Sin é wrote:
nth wrote:
Sin é wrote:
hawalsh wrote:I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but these are the ones that have been provided on this site before:

The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports. A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source:http:// www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased. But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view.

These figures obviously don't include the French audience, which is far greater because it's not pay-TV. Last year 2.5m French tuned in to watch Toulon play Sale in just a forgone conclusion pool match.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/6263/nick-cain-toulon-are-a-triumph-for-french-tv-as-well/
Its remarkable that two Irish teams would get that many viewers in the UK (ROI is not included in Barb's figures). not remarkable given that NI's are To get those kind of figures, every household in NI would need to be watching that match, which I doubt very much as rugby would be very much the 3rd sport in NI. I wasn't suggesting that only NI viewers were watching (700,000 odd households in NI at an average size of 2.5 people incidentally), just that the BARB figures would cover the primary geographical support base for one of the sides involved, so they were never going to be paltry. The figures certainly weren't impressive though, down by a quarter from the previous year that involved an English side, and less than the final 3 years previously also involving an English side, despite the supposed growth in interest in the HC in that time.

Also worth noting that more people in the UK watched Munster v Biarritz than Wasps v Tigers the following year in the UK. I wonder whether Munster or Biarritz were the big draw in the UK? must have been Biarritz, because 2 years later Munster featured again and it was the 2nd lowest audience within 10 years
Actually, the Munster v Toulouse match clashed with Rep of Ireland playing Serbia in Croke Park (first match that Trap was in charge of) and the European Song Contest! That might have affected the Irish viewing figures, but I don't see how that would particularly affect the UK ones that we are discussing here. In any case, there was no clash, the HC final started at 5pm and the football match started after at 7.45pm, the Eurovision at 8pm

Also interesting to see how the numbers fall when an Irish team isn't involved (i.e., Toulouse v Biarritz falls to 161K). so why was Munster's final 2 years before even lower? That it was an all French final and these are only UK figures is the more likely answer
So, look forward to a lack of interest in the frango comp when it happens then. Well, it won't happen, but if it did UK figures for an all French final certainly wouldn't be record breaking, by contrast I'm sure they would be superb in France (5.7 million watched the last Top14 final). A final with one or two English sides in it would undoubtedly do well in England however.

Edit, do you have the figures for the final between Toulon & Clermont (with Jonny play, there would be big interest in the UK).[/b][/b]
The post of yours Hawalsh quoted said
Sin é wrote:More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).
have you got a source for that what I assume is ROI data given that it doesn't match the BARB figures?
I don't have a source. I remember reading it in some article. Hmm, sounds like you might have been incorrectly remembering these figures, with it being a 30k difference but the other way round

by geoff998rugby Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:42 am

Those viewing figures show that the decline in numbers is when a French team are in the final and that Irish teams have similar pulling power to English ones.

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:51 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Those viewing figures show that the decline in numbers is when a French team are in the final and that Irish teams have similar pulling power to English ones.

2008 was dead compared to 2006(both had a french and irish side in the final). Its just rugby fans in england being fickle(the drop coincided with the worst time for england International rugby ever)

in 2007 the viewing figures dropped(even with 2 english finalists) before the RWC- england had lost 7 straight games within the last year , then in 2008 no one cared in england due to an irish v french final..

We all know what we want anyway- english-irish finals!! thats the passion- or tbh any celt v english final is where its at though!!

by geoff998rugby Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:58 am

2004 was a poor crowd.
2007 had 2 English teams in and the crowd droped from the previous year.

In statistics you can run some simple correlation techniques to establish any trends and from those figures the only trend is a drop when French teams are involved.
Any difference between Irish and English pulling power is not shown from those figures.

Before you ask I have taken a degree level paper (and passed) in statistics Wink

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:01 am

Not bothered what you have or dont have mate in fairness. Outside influences have distorted those stats within the years 2007 and 2008. I know my stats

But you are clearly highlighting a theoretical understanding only and not taking into consideration outside influences. Which is clearly the factor here
.

but you are spot on that irish and english finalists are the draw- i have not argued that in the slightest only agreed!!( and that we shouldn't take note of the 2007 or 2008 finals as gospel)

by beshocked Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:11 am

Looking at those viewing figures it looks like all of the finals with lower viewing figures involve Toulouse.

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:14 am

i think the only thing to note in 2003-2005 is that viewing went up(this would be due to skys subscription and the draw of the ERC not much else to be honest- toulouse i would say is no different to any other french team in england(they dont matter as long as a home nation plays against them)

by geoff998rugby Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:18 am

Good point re Toulouse - they bring the crowd down that is the one key fact here.

Everything else is guess work

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:21 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Good point re Toulouse - they bring the crowd down that is the one key fact here.

Everything else is guess work

Thats nonsense. there are literally loads of facts you need to work on!

the anomaly is in 2007 and 2008.

people aren't going to turn of just because of toulouse. i mean yes stats tell the story but not the full one.. Stats are only as good as the data given , they can only spot a trend- they cant till the truth You need to look into the outside influences to work out whats going on.

What we know as gospel is that more people are tuning in to the ERC, (is this due to the draw of the tourney or more people having sky)- is this due to more people staying at home and watching because of the failing economy rather than going down the pub and watching it!! therefore incorrectly boosting the figures, is it because more people are just staying in full stop and putting it on - because they haven't got the money to do anything else..

The interesting thing to note is that although on average we have less disposable income. Sky is still increasing its subscriptions.. People could call this frivolous spending- but to be honest people do watch more telly when they are skint!!- one months worth of sky is cheaper than one night down the boozer!

by geoff998rugby Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:22 am

Believe what you choose to believe

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:23 am

what do you believe?

That you are a statistical hero??

Come on mate- I actually use stats on a day to day basis that aid me to run my business.. What is it you have a piece of paper that tells you nothing!

You have to work the data out before you can interpret the stats. This is the fundamental of stats!

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:28 am

the only gospel fact is that more people are watching the erc year on year(the average is increasing over time)

its you guessing that its because of toulouse the figures drop. If you can't understand that then i am not sure how to help you pal..

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:35 am

The obvious fact about the BARB figures is that the numbers are so extraordinarily low. I don't know how many Sky subscribers buy a sports package, but viewing figures of less than half a million is a bit depressing compared with the 6Ns.

When England sold their 6Ns rights to Sky, BARB viewing figures were literally decimated (5m to 0.5m).

Maybe a FTA alternative for the final could be negotiated. A depressing number of V2 PM pirates for instance clearly exist.

Maybe BTS would be prepared to offer a FTA transmission. Who knows?

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:37 am

You are right portney it is criminally low!

and we are wondering why it needs to be changed!!

by geoff998rugby Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:40 am

Another folder to leave as Mystiroakey is an all knowing individual.

You appoach on this matter - the Euro mess - shows some worrying signs of immaturity.

Anyone who disagree with you needs to be insulted.
At 36 I would have thought that you would have grown up by now.

Bye bye - rant away to your hearts content - I can't be bothered reply

by TJ Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:44 am

mystiroakey wrote:You are right portney it is criminally low!

and we are wondering why it needs to be changed!!

Free to air is the only way to get mass viewing figures. Only the committed fan will pay the huge sums sky want.

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:45 am

You are leaving because of me. Oh i feel so special..

All knowing hey- you think a correlation is a fact. OMG(and you are a degree level statistician laughing

)

You are 59 and can't understand you are the one showing the immaturity! Please run along!

by TJ Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:47 am

No - you are often being rather irritating in amongst the odd good point you make. Its not big and its not clever to deliberately annoy people. Grow up.

by Big Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:49 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The obvious fact about the BARB figures is that the numbers are so extraordinarily low. I don't know how many Sky subscribers buy a sports package, but viewing figures of less than half a million is a bit depressing compared with the 6Ns.

When England sold their 6Ns rights to Sky, BARB viewing figures were literally decimated (5m to 0.5m).

Maybe a FTA alternative for the final could be negotiated. A depressing number of V2 PM pirates for instance clearly exist.

Maybe BTS would be prepared to offer a FTA transmission. Who knows?

I'd be interested to see what the viewing figures were 11/12 years back when it was still free to air...

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:49 am

Is that projection or something TJ?

by mystiroakey Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:53 am

This is geoffs first argument and he has a pop at others for being all knowing and not willing to debate!!

"Before you ask I have taken a degree level paper (and passed) in statistics End in sight to Euro Mess? - Page 15 Icon_wink

"

You couldn't make up the irony laughing

by beshocked Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:56 am

TJ wrote:No - you are often being rather irritating in amongst the odd good point you make. Its not big and its not clever to deliberately annoy people. Grow up.

Sorry TJ but pot calling the kettle black springs to mind in regards to this Euro argument.

by TJ Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:08 am

I am not abusive nor do I set out to annoy folk. Its merely a byproduct of my strength of feeling. You won't find me mocking folk or insulting them.

by maestegmafia Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:12 am

TJ it doesn't matter whether that is your intention or not, the first thing most of these guys will do is attack you and your credibility before answering your point.

It is pathetic.

by TJ Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:18 am

Actually maesteg most of this has been informative and well tempered. No one bar a couple of childish trolls have made personal attacks on me. Lots of attacks on the points I made and my reasoning in getting there but that is fair enough.

Beshocked and I have had a fair old row but I do not think less of him for it for example.

by lostinwales Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:19 am

maestegmafia wrote:TJ it doesn't matter whether that is your intention or not, the first thing most of these guys will do is attack you and your credibility before answering your point.

It is pathetic.

After all its so much easier to do that than to read and understand what they said isnt it Maes.

Question still stands Maes - do you want the BT deal to fail?

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