End in sight to Euro Mess?

First topic message reminder :

Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.


So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

unions only caring about their own country cannot develop the game further- that is the key!

But that is what unions should be doing.. But at the same time- the reality is it is just a money grabbing exercise- so lets just make some real money..

Capiche!

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and yes i 100% agree with Brian

All pie in the sky - BM is clueless - how can the Unions develop rugby further, if most of the funds will be grabbed by the greedy English & French club owners.

By being business-like and not behaving like red-necks imo. The inevitable consequences of professionalism are now kicking in.

If you want 'fair' competition (whatever the moveable feast of 'fair' is), buy a time machine and put it into reverse and find a different version of 'fair'.

mystiroakey wrote:Once other nations consumers start turning into their latest player playing in the "GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND SUPER DUPER CHAMPIONS OF AWESOMENESS RUGBY UNION LEAGUE" more and more fans will come of the back of it,, they will then start playing it in more schools and eventually countries that can self sustain a league will eventually get a pro league on the go.

They already have that..it's called the Super15. Also, to an extent, Europe has it in the pretty heavy hitting Top 14, which isn't short of brutal creative rugby and star names from the world of rugby playing in it. If rugby was going to grow because people are tuning into great club rugby, then that process should have already began.... even without the eagerly waited for GB&I SDCARUL!!!

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and yes i 100% agree with Brian

All pie in the sky - BM is clueless - how can the Unions develop rugby further, if most of the funds will be grabbed by the greedy English & French club owners.

dude when you make points like this, do you really expect people to believe that you are better informed than an ex-amateur and professional rugby player turned full time commentator/pundit?

for sure he has an opinion, as he is entitled to. but for you to say that BM is clueless totally diminishes anything that you might be about to say after that statement.

you do yourself no favours.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and yes i 100% agree with Brian

All pie in the sky - BM is clueless - how can the Unions develop rugby further, if most of the funds will be grabbed by the greedy English & French club owners.

By being business-like and not behaving like red-necks imo. The inevitable consequences of professionalism are now kicking in.

If you want 'fair' competition (whatever the moveable feast of 'fair' is), buy a time machine and put it into reverse and find a different version of 'fair'.

If you don't need 'fair' then there is a Franglo Cup that people keep talking about behind the scenes but nobody seems to be drawing up practical plans for?? Why are the Franglo's still chatting? They have the makings of a competition, go for it - the world ain't 'fair'. They have the money. it's not about the Best teams being in a European Cup it's about the ones that can best fund themsleves and best steal best players from other teams.

If'n nothing is fair...Franglo should just go for it. The Next Best European Non-Celt Challenge Cup. What's stallin' the 'unfair' money porfessionals?.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Once other nations consumers start turning into their latest player playing in the "GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND SUPER DUPER CHAMPIONS OF AWESOMENESS RUGBY UNION LEAGUE" more and more fans will come of the back of it,, they will then start playing it in more schools and eventually countries that can self sustain a league will eventually get a pro league on the go.

They already have that..it's called the Super15.  Also, to an extent, Europe has it in the pretty heavy hitting Top 14, which isn't short of brutal creative rugby and star names from the world of rugby playing in it.  If rugby was going to grow because people are tuning into great club rugby, then that process should have already began.... even without the eagerly waited for GB&I SDCARUL!!!

Look dude - This is something we can actually make work on a global scale.. The other two you mention are good quality but they haven't penetrated other markets.. The prl(with the rest of you little nations around us---JOKE!!!) Can make it work!

I think we could penetrate north america, japan, china, south america(take up every argentinian possible- before they get involved in the super15). Its a race and we can beat them to it- otherwise they will start taking more and more of our players away!

trust me Sanzar(i have been reading alot about them recently due to a tiff with Glorious empire) Are gunning for the world as we speak.

"I think we could penetrate north america, japan, china, south america(take up every argentinian possible- before they get involved in the super15). "

whatever happens, i'm all for not getting penetrated on a regular basis by SANZAR in AIs and RWCs

quinsforever wrote:"I think we could penetrate north america, japan, china, south america(take up every argentinian possible- before they get involved in the super15). "

whatever happens, i'm all for not getting penetrated on a regular basis by SANZAR in AIs and RWCs

I am talking about them in the administrative sense not the 3 nations, they are looking to expand the super15

its not going to be long by the way, before a really long-term owner decides to set up an academy in the Pacific Islands...really promising players then get shipped over before they play age group anywhere, and qualify for whoever in 3minutes as SF mentioned, and that club and that nation both benefit...

will be good to have someone competing with the kiwis in this regard at least...

its the reality that their genetics are perfect for rugby, but the way the world is going dont rule out making test tube Samoans!!

rodders wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:
NZ would be a perfect example of the problems that can occur- They make a lot out of the international game but run a massive loss domestically- which is subsidised by their international pot.

That's exactly how it works in Ireland, and its a good way for the game because it means the power lies with a body/group who's interests and responsibilities lie at all levels of the game from grassroots to international, rather than with one who's interests start and end with ensuring its own existence and maximising its own financial gain.

and in Scotland the SRU gather in all the income then divide it amongst the various levels of the game. the pro clubs get a budget and that is that. thats what they can spend

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and yes i 100% agree with Brian

All pie in the sky - BM is clueless - how can the Unions develop rugby further, if most of the funds will be grabbed by the greedy English & French club owners.

dude when you make points like this, do you really expect people to believe that you are better informed than an ex-amateur and professional rugby player turned full time commentator/pundit?

for sure he has an opinion, as he is entitled to. but for you to say that BM is clueless totally diminishes anything that you might be about to say after that statement.

you do yourself no favours.

Brian Moore is taking everything as gospel what the PRL are claiming .... i.e., the PRL are claiming that no one was willing to listen to them and they couldn't negotiate with the ERC, the ERC would not do what they wanted etc. etc.

According to the ERC and the Scottish Unions, concessions were agreed a long time ago, except that didn't suit the PRL's power grab effort, so they claim that these concessions were not offered.

ALso, I think McGrath has said that there has been a board meeting every month for the last 15 months. If the PRL Reps couldn't get what they wanted to the agenda, they are incompetent and not fit to organise a urine up in a brewery, let alone a competition.

TJ wrote:

rodders wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:
NZ would be a perfect example of the problems that can occur- They make a lot out of the international game but run a massive loss domestically- which is subsidised by their international pot.

That's exactly how it works in Ireland, and its a good way for the game because it means the power lies with a body/group who's interests and responsibilities lie at all levels of the game from grassroots to international, rather than with one who's interests start and end with ensuring its own existence and maximising its own financial gain.

and in Scotland the SRU gather in all the income then divide it amongst the various levels of the game.  the pro clubs get a budget and that is that.  thats what they can spend

....and how much do they donate to the European Samoan Genetic Splicing Programme?

....and how much do they donate to the European Samoan Genetic Splicing Programme?[/quote]shhhh. its secret. only 606v2 knows about it...

From the Brian Moore piece

It has been reported that the Celts and Italians will be meeting the Rugby Football Union this week, ready to make concessions in line with the Anglo-French proposals – a meritocratic qualification process and an equal division of money between the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and RaboDirect Pro12 leagues.

It may have been reported but I bet my house its not the case. Equal division of money by league will not be accepted nor will only 6 rabo teams. a deal that bad is worse than no deeal and without the Rabo unions there is no european cap and no money for the PRL either

a compromise may be brokered but its no way going to be that.

Not enough SF, not enough, clearly wales have paid in(thats how they got george north)

TJ wrote:From the Brian Moore piece

It has been reported that the Celts and Italians will be meeting the Rugby Football Union this week, ready to make concessions in line with the Anglo-French proposals – a meritocratic qualification process and an equal division of money between the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and RaboDirect Pro12 leagues.

It may have been reported but I bet my house its not the case.  Equal division of money by league will not be accepted nor will only 6 rabo teams.  a deal that bad is worse than no deeal and without the Rabo unions there is no european cap and no money for the PRL either

a compromise may be brokered but its no way going to be that.

why? wouldnt it be fair?     just kidding lets not go there again...

I would argue that 'fair' would be to have a European Nations competition open to all by divisional leagues.

But there don't appear to be many takers on my proposal.

But that's self-interest for you.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting about who provides the biggest draw.

More people watched the Leinster v Ulster HCup final than the Leinster v Leicester HCup final (the different was about 20K).

I think this can be explained by the way Irish provincial supporters will always watch each other's games, whereas in France & England, the supporters are only interested in their own club.

Also interesting is that Munster sells a lot of jerseys in the Leicester & Northampton area (from an article posted here which said that Munster were the top selling club jersey in the world).

watched where?

oh yes you think matchday attendance drives the money in professional sports.

big red herring.

its all about TV. and what broadcasters are willing to pay based on what they think the market demand is for that product (euro club rugby) in each country.

Wasn't talking about match day attendance (though it is relevant). I'm talking about Sky's viewers of the two finals. Sky got more viewers for the two Irish teams than they got for the Irish v English team.

Must look up what the viewership of the final was last season.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but these are the ones that have been provided on this site before:

Pot Hale wrote:The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports.   A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source: http://www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased.   But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view.

These figures obviously don't include the French audience, which is far greater because it's not pay-TV.  Last year 2.5m French tuned in to watch Toulon play Sale in just a forgone conclusion pool match.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/6263/nick-cain-toulon-are-a-triumph-for-french-tv-as-well/

SecretFly wrote:Look Metal Tiger...there ain't not big deal in making a pancake.

Now decide how you're going to divide one amongst a family consisting of a big rough basteraud of a dad... with hair not only in his nostrils but on his eyelids.... the momma who likes to dress in expensive clothes and go out shopping without her wedding ring, the large for her age 13 year old girl, the small for his age 16 year old runt, the loud mouthed baby who cries for food all the time and the under-fed cat!!

They all have to feel equally satisfied that they got their 'fair' share of the pancake ........

In my house everyone gets their own pancake

hawalsh wrote:I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but these are the ones that have been provided on this site before:

The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports.   A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source:http:// www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased.   But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view.

These figures obviously don't include the French audience, which is far greater because it's not pay-TV.  Last year 2.5m French tuned in to watch Toulon play Sale in just a forgone conclusion pool match.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/nick-cain/6263/nick-cain-toulon-are-a-triumph-for-french-tv-as-well/

Its remarkable that two Irish teams would get that many viewers in the UK (ROI is not included in Barb's figures).

Also worth noting that more people in the UK watched Munster v Biarritz than Wasps v Tigers the following year in the UK. I wonder whether Munster or Biarritz were the big draw in the UK?

Also interesting to see how the numbers fall when an Irish team isn't involved (i.e., Toulouse v Biarritz falls to 161K).

Edit, do you have the figures for the final between Toulon & Clermont (with Jonny play, there would be big interest in the UK).

those figures literally make no sense whatsoever do they.

Its seems the viewing public of the final are very fickle..

why the massive difference from 2006 compared to 2008(both munster v french final)

Was there something else going on in 2008? maybe the drop of just happened in 2007 anyway - considering the viewers fell even with an all english  final!

Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

alive555 wrote:Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

If it's true it will be interesting to see how RFU respond.

its also strange to note that in late 2006 and early 2007 england were 300/1 to win the RWC and yet got two teams in to the HC. these odds did drop to 30/1(which is still an all time high )just before the start of the rwc

late 2006 was englands worse spell in international rugby for a long time.(i think we lost all the ai's by a minimum of 20 pts a game in the SH) and had a 7 loss losing streak) maybe that is what caused the drop in skys viewing figures- did england's international form put the viewers of watching the HC)

this correlation between doing well in the HC and not doing to well internationally is something worth noting(it clearly happens to ireland as well and although england got to the WC final in 2007 it was the biggest shock ever because the year before was the worst spell i can remember us ever happening internationally)

Now we know why there will be no world cup games in Welford Road!

The RFU are no bodies fools.

alive555 wrote:Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

rwc 2015 contracts have been signed and inked yonks ago. zero chance of renegotiating those. rfu's contract is no longer even with rfu, its with a separate company. if you think anyone involved will allow irb or anyone to wriggle out of legally binding contracts then you must also believe that 6/7/11 is a "fair" qualification mechanism to HC...

what has the rfu got to do with the wc split- surely thats an IRB issue?

would be really funny if any nations threatened to withdraw from wrc 2015, thereby compounding the loss of income from no HC.

probably the least credible threat i have ever heard in my life.

aka if you rfu/prl/lnr/ffr don't cut your excessively sharp nails, i'm going to dismember myself.

I've heard it mentioned in the last few weeks that an option could be for the Celtic Unions & Italy to withdraw from the Rugby World Cup.

Try and fill Twickers with Canada v USA then!

quinsforever wrote:

alive555 wrote:Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

rwc 2015 contracts have been signed and inked yonks ago. zero chance of renegotiating those. rfu's contract is no longer even with rfu, its with a separate company. if you think anyone involved will allow irb or anyone to wriggle out of legally binding contracts then you must also believe that 6/7/11 is a "fair" qualification mechanism to HC...

The Celtic Nations have until December to commit. Are you making things up?

Correlation ≠ causation

yes but its a nonsense threat though Sin e. No one will take it seriously

comedy. plain and simple. rubbish like this is clearly music to the prl/lnr ears as it shows the desperation of the other side's negotiating position. all hysteria and no credibility.

mystiroakey wrote:yes but its a nonsense threat though Sin e. No one will take it seriously

Why wouldn't they take it seriously? No skin off their nose. Without the Celts & Italians they would have to call it off.
New Zealand have already threatened they wouldn't come unless they got more money.

they have already got there money Sin e. that happened last year and yes they had the clout to pull of that threat and it worked!

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

alive555 wrote:Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

rwc 2015 contracts have been signed and inked yonks ago. zero chance of renegotiating those. rfu's contract is no longer even with rfu, its with a separate company. if you think anyone involved will allow irb or anyone to wriggle out of legally binding contracts then you must also believe that 6/7/11 is a "fair" qualification mechanism to HC...

The Celtic Nations have until December to commit. Are you making things up?

the commercial arrangements around rwc2015 have been agreed ages ago between irb and rfu/wru.

which celtic nations are going to attempt to renegotiate (presumably only by threat of non-participation) and throw out the IRB agreed framework and terms?

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:yes but its a nonsense threat though Sin e. No one will take it seriously

Why wouldn't they take it seriously? No skin off their nose. Without the Celts & Italians they would have to call it off.
New Zealand have already threatened they wouldn't come unless they got more money.

you think irfu pulling out (are you going to make it out of the group stage this time) and SRU pulling out (?) is going to impact the tournament going ahead? now you are seriously overestimating your relevance on the RWC stage.

mystiroakey wrote:they have already got there money Sin e. that happened last year and yes they had the clout to pull of that threat and it worked!

You seriously don't think they Celts, and Italians, together don't have clout? I don't think the article is saying they are threatening to leave the WRC out of protest, but rather due to loss of revenue.

all i can say is if the celtic nations want the IRB on side to stop a break away league(if negotiations fail) i wouldn't wind them up by trying to pull out of the upcoming RWC!!

its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.

also lads not being funny but there is no way wales is going to pull out of the RWC or threaten it! 

maybe ireland will and maybe scotland would follow...

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

alive555 wrote:Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

rwc 2015 contracts have been signed and inked yonks ago. zero chance of renegotiating those. rfu's contract is no longer even with rfu, its with a separate company. if you think anyone involved will allow irb or anyone to wriggle out of legally binding contracts then you must also believe that 6/7/11 is a "fair" qualification mechanism to HC...

The Celtic Nations have until December to commit. Are you making things up?

the commercial arrangements around rwc2015 have been agreed ages ago between irb and rfu/wru.

which celtic nations are going to attempt to renegotiate (presumably only by threat of non-participation) and throw out the IRB agreed framework and terms?

That could be for the hire of the Millenium Stadium. Without Wales in the tournament, its going to be hard to fill the Millenium.

sin e i wondered where you'd gone for the past 5-6 hours. unfortunately its rather obvious now....

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

alive555 wrote:Reported in tomorrows times

Celtic unions will demand more World Cup revenue if talks on Europe fail

Check mate

rwc 2015 contracts have been signed and inked yonks ago. zero chance of renegotiating those. rfu's contract is no longer even with rfu, its with a separate company. if you think anyone involved will allow irb or anyone to wriggle out of legally binding contracts then you must also believe that 6/7/11 is a "fair" qualification mechanism to HC...

The Celtic Nations have until December to commit. Are you making things up?

the commercial arrangements around rwc2015 have been agreed ages ago between irb and rfu/wru.

which celtic nations are going to attempt to renegotiate (presumably only by threat of non-participation) and throw out the IRB agreed framework and terms?

That could be for the hire of the Millenium Stadium. Without Wales in the tournament, its going to be hard to fill the Millenium.

sin, i would like to introduce you to my mate roger lewis...heard of him...?

mystiroakey wrote:all i can say is if the celtic nations want the IRB on side to stop a break away league(if negotiations fail) i wouldn't wind them up by trying to pull out of the upcoming RWC!!

I would think any press release such as this would have been discussed at the highest level. Neither do I believe it would be viewed as winding up IRB. It's a concern over revenue, and not some form of protest....according to the article....

quinsforever wrote:its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.

Well, the PRL & LNR seem to have survived all the criticism from their fans for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, Rugby Unions usually lose money in world cup years as they don't host autumn internationals.

Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers.

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:they have already got there money Sin e. that happened last year and yes they had the clout to pull of that threat and it worked!

You seriously don't think they Celts, and Italians, together don't have clout? I don't think the article is saying they are threatening to leave the WRC out of protest, but rather due to loss of revenue.

well that's even more stupid.

in response to a bad financial deal in club rugby i am going to forego all revenue from the biggest international tournament that happens every 4 years. genius.

i hope it happens and when the unions go bust they can put some sensible/modern administrators in their place.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.

Well, the PRL & LNR seem to have survived all the criticism from their fans for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, Rugby Unions usually lose money in world cup years as they don't host autumn internationals.

Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers.

i would love nothing more than for your gambit to be right sin e. would redefine the club/union landscape in favour of professionally run clubs in a way that the prl/lnr could not even have dreamed of in 20 years.

i'm with you on this one.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:its about financial clout and credibility. if IRFU pull ireland out of the wrc because of a club dispute, they will get precisely everything they deserve...irfu bankruptcy, province bankruptcy. overplaying one's hand like this will be good because it will get ordinary fans to question what the F the irfu think they are doing and maybe replace it with some progressive, commercial thinkers.

Well, the PRL & LNR seem to have survived all the criticism from their fans for doing exactly the same thing.

By the way, Rugby Unions usually lose money in world cup years as they don't host autumn internationals.

Ireland can host a couple of warm-up games against some of the Sanzar nations to help fill the coffers.

this is stand-up material. fantastic. unfortunately, much as i wish you were right sin e, i dont think the pragmatic administrators at wru and sru at least would give you one seconds attention.

so unfortunately nothing to get excited about.