End in sight to Euro Mess?

First topic message reminder :

Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.


So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

Good point. The other cup needs to get bigger.

broadlandboy wrote:Because they want to boost the  quality in the top comp with less mismatches & the appeal of the 2nd comp

There would be horendous mismatches in the 2nd tier comp then - some of the teams are amateur/semi pro. (as in London Irish putting 60 on Cavalieri and Wasps putting 90 on Viadana).

The Amlin gets sexed up when some of the teams like Leinster drop down into the competition. In the meantime, lots of clubs get to play in european competition - that helps the development of rugby (which the PRL are very concerned about )

As there are in the Uefa cup. It is still massive and in the early rounds a place to try out your up and coming prospects.

Sin have you looked at the PRL/LNR proposal. Basically 20 in top comp from Top14/RABO/Aviva, 20 teams in next comp rest of Top14/RABO/Aviva + top2 from 3rd comp , 3rd comp the top teams from rest of Europe

mystiroakey wrote:As there are in the Uefa cup. It is still massive and in the early rounds a place to try out your up and coming prospects.

It would be more benefit if some of the Championship teams/PROD2 teams had a spot in it than the likes of Bath or Grenoble (who are obviously concentrating on the Top 14 allowing Bayonne to put 37pts on them ).

Its a bit more dangerous to have amateur rugby players competing against seasoned/hardended professionals.

broadlandboy wrote:Sin have you looked at the PRL/LNR proposal. Basically 20 in top comp from Top14/RABO/Aviva, 20 teams in next comp rest of Top14/RABO/Aviva +  top2 from 3rd comp , 3rd comp the top teams from rest of Europe

I have looked at the proposal and I just don't see the point of reducing the teams to 20. It doesn't mean more games for each team.

No. 1 - Heineken Cup games are of more value to the broadcaster than Amlin games.
No. 2 - There are more HC games to televise, so more income for European Rugby.

I think having teams drop down from the HC doesnt do any favors to the rest of the Amlin teams. Personally I dont think teams like Leinster 'sexes up' the competition for anyone except Leinster fans.

lostinwales wrote:I think having teams drop down from the HC doesnt do any favors to the rest of the Amlin teams. Personally I dont think teams like Leinster 'sexes up' the competition for anyone except Leinster fans.

It does favours to the competition though (and for the broadcaster who will probably get a few more viewers in a game between Quins v Stade francais, than say Bordeaux v Viana.

lostinwales wrote:I think having teams drop down from the HC doesnt do any favors to the rest of the Amlin teams. Personally I dont think teams like Leinster 'sexes up' the competition for anyone except Leinster fans.

You would get a lot of Leinster fans not impressed with the comp anyway. They wanted to "not try" and use it for development.

How the fock is anyone going to set up a 3rd comp when the 2nd one is not great.

Personally I was all for winning the Amlin once we found ourselves there. Not at the expense of the Rabo though. (Luckily it wasn't)
I know how the French feel now about the HC being less important than their own league.

Rabo sides don't rate the Amlin as most of them have never played in it. But yet they expect the English and the French (who have backboned it for years) to take it seriously.

This is why it is 2nd to the Rabo despite it being older.

Tradition and history are ahead of just age. Tradition and history for many generations have gone into the Top 14.

I reckon the likes of Leinster etc. in the Amlin are good for the Comp's profile, but unfair to the teams that have slogged their way through the pools.

Perhaps if the profile of the comp is improved that unfairness would be worth it?

Mcladyboy- if the Rabbo had 6 teams in the amlin as the english and french do then you would care more?

Isnt that the point!!

Here is a question for you. If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it? After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

mystiroakey wrote:Mcladyboy- if the Rabbo had 6 teams in the amlin as the english and french do then you would care more?

Isnt that the point!!

Yes. That's what I said init? Though 6 is a bit excessive given the nature of the 4 nations in one league that is the Rabo.

TJ wrote:Here is  a question for you.  If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it?  After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Calm down sweetheart.  

"A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup"

Oh well, the earth will keep spinning, life will go on and the Eng & French fans will still pay their money to watch their clubs play. 

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

No - the amlin is the second teir comp. No one takes it seriously and its completely uncompetitive.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Maybe, but the fans still turn up.  

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Mcladyboy- if the Rabbo had 6 teams in the amlin as the english and french do then you would care more?

Isnt that the point!!

Yes. That's what I said init? Though 6 is a bit excessive given the nature of the 4 nations in one league that is the Rabo.

Yes sorry you are right. Maybe 8 is the better figure- you want all those nations represented in it at least twice

mystiroakey wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Mcladyboy- if the Rabbo had 6 teams in the amlin as the english and french do then you would care more?

Isnt that the point!!

Yes. That's what I said init? Though 6 is a bit excessive given the nature of the 4 nations in one league that is the Rabo.

Yes sorry you are right. Maybe 8 is the better figure- you want all those nations represented in it at least twice

 

Ah come on. You want to give the English and French SOME chance of winning the thing or they'll sulk about it like they have done with the HC.

Scrumpy wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Maybe, but the fans still turn up.  

You must have been out last Thursday night then? There were 3 men and a dog at Biarritz visit to Sale

What did you expect Biarritz are rubbish.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Maybe, but the fans still turn up.  

You must have been out last Thursday night then? There were 3 men and a dog at Biarritz visit to Sale

a harsh but fair description of the team Biarritz sent over...

Scrumpy wrote:What did you expect Biarritz are rubbish.

They certainly are. I was away in Swansea the rest of the weekend were any other Amlin games well attended?

yes, bordeaux-bath. 15k+

how can biarritz have got so bad!

I love biarittz - won a killing once in there casino!

quinsforever wrote:yes, bordeaux-bath. 15k+

Wow! Actual punters in the ground? Must have been in Bordeaux? Does the Rec hold that many?

Impressive either way. Is the Amlin improving?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

quinsforever wrote:yes, bordeaux-bath. 15k+

Wow! Actual punters in the ground? Must have been in Bordeaux? Does the Rec hold that many?

Impressive either way. Is the Amlin improving?

How is the rabbo doing?  good competitive league yet?

TJ wrote:Here is a question for you. If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it? After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just described the current Amlin almost to a tee, and that gives the answer to your question. It's the inclusion of some Pro12 teams that would improve the Amlin (not to "so good" level, but hopefully to a level that is more attractive to a wider set of fans, eyeballs and wallets.)

Adding some of the lesser Pro12 teams would broaden the appeal of the Amlinv2 with more borders to cross.
Banishing most of the minnows to a 3rd tier would reduce mismatches.
The real trick would be to provide enough incentives for all teams to take the pool stages seriously - it's conceivable that the Pro12 teams would take the competition seriously (as Dragons tend to do) and that would force the Franglo teams to up their game.

And are you seriously suggesting that middle-ranked Exeter's place is in the Amlin, while Cardiff's is HC?

mystiroakey wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

quinsforever wrote:yes, bordeaux-bath. 15k+

Wow! Actual punters in the ground? Must have been in Bordeaux? Does the Rec hold that many?

Impressive either way. Is the Amlin improving?

How is the rabbo doing?  good competitive league yet?

White hot. Easily the best thing outside the HC and Super Rugby.

Scrumpy wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Maybe, but the fans still turn up.  

Sale v Biarritz - 3,153  

nah, bordeaux fans must have thought it was a top14 fixture...probably misread brive for bath.  

given the choice (which erc ending means they being given it) i seriously dont know why any of the fr/eng teams bother with the amlin until it gets to qf/semis (and the HC place is up for grabs). only downside from injuring players, attendance generally low, no performance related payouts.

the whole thing needs to be redrawn on a clean sheet of paper.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:Here is  a question for you.  If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it?  After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just described the current Amlin almost to a tee, and that gives the answer to your question. It's the inclusion of some Pro12 teams that would improve the Amlin (not to "so good" level, but hopefully to a level that is more attractive to a wider set of fans, eyeballs and wallets.)

Adding some of the lesser Pro12 teams would broaden the appeal of the Amlinv2 with more borders to cross.
Banishing most of the minnows to a 3rd tier would reduce mismatches.
The real trick would be to provide enough incentives for all teams to take the pool stages seriously - it's conceivable that the Pro12 teams would take the competition seriously (as Dragons tend to do) and that would force the Franglo teams to up their game.

And are you seriously suggesting that middle-ranked Exeter's place is in the Amlin, while Cardiff's is HC?

On current form absolutely not. You would have to go back 2 or 3 years to make that argument.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Just can't see how the 3rd tier is viable though.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:Here is  a question for you.  If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it?  After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just described the current Amlin almost to a tee, and that gives the answer to your question. It's the inclusion of some Pro12 teams that would improve the Amlin (not to "so good" level, but hopefully to a level that is more attractive to a wider set of fans, eyeballs and wallets.)

Adding some of the lesser Pro12 teams would broaden the appeal of the Amlinv2 with more borders to cross.
Banishing most of the minnows to a 3rd tier would reduce mismatches.
The real trick would be to provide enough incentives for all teams to take the pool stages seriously - it's conceivable that the Pro12 teams would take the competition seriously (as Dragons tend to do) and that would force the Franglo teams to up their game.

And are you seriously suggesting that middle-ranked Exeter's place is in the Amlin, while Cardiff's is HC?

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC.No matter how you dress it up the Amlin will always be a consolation cup and fans don't really care about winning a cup that none of the best teams compete in.I say this as a Leinster (reigning Amlin champons) fan.

well there is another option- and it would still throw up a lot of mismatches- but just have 10 groups of 4 and the losing two sides go into the amiln and the top 2 go in to the HC.

That would of course kill the amiln- however the HC would BE GOLDEN!! and everyone gets a chance of getting in

"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

mystiroakey wrote:well there is another option- and it would still throw up a lot of mismatches- but just have 10 groups of 4 and the losing two sides go into the amiln and the top 2 go in to the HC.

That would of course kill the amiln- however the HC would BE GOLDEN!! and everyone gets a chance of getting in

can you imagine the nightmare arguments/battles about seeding  

yeah i suppose and then we are back to square 1

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

I've been hearing that for a year now. No one knows that for sure. It could stumble on. The final is in the San Siro next year.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:Here is  a question for you.  If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it?  After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just described the current Amlin almost to a tee, and that gives the answer to your question. It's the inclusion of some Pro12 teams that would improve the Amlin (not to "so good" level, but hopefully to a level that is more attractive to a wider set of fans, eyeballs and wallets.)

Adding some of the lesser Pro12 teams would broaden the appeal of the Amlinv2 with more borders to cross.
Banishing most of the minnows to a 3rd tier would reduce mismatches.
The real trick would be to provide enough incentives for all teams to take the pool stages seriously - it's conceivable that the Pro12 teams would take the competition seriously (as Dragons tend to do) and that would force the Franglo teams to up their game.

And are you seriously suggesting that middle-ranked Exeter's place is in the Amlin, while Cardiff's is HC?

On current form absolutely not. You would have to go back 2 or 3 years to make that argument.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Just can't see how the 3rd tier is viable though.

Could be viable if the B+I Cup was extended a bit - the games are even played on HCup weekends. I'd still leave 24 teams in the HCup though.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

I've been hearing that for a year now. No one knows that for sure. It could stumble on. The final is in the San Siro next year.

have to say, the times article this morning where celtic unions say they want money from IRB if there is no european rugby for them next year, makes it very clear to me at least, that prl/lnr are not budging at all on 6/6/6 and 1/3 each. article confirms that too.

so either there's no rugby or its going to be very different format.

quinsforever wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

I've been hearing that for a year now. No one knows that for sure. It could stumble on. The final is in the San Siro next year.

have to say, the times article this morning where celtic unions say they want money from IRB if there is no european rugby for them next year, makes it very clear to me at least, that prl/lnr are not budging at all on 6/6/6 and 1/3 each. article confirms that too.

so either there's no rugby or its going to be very different format.

As I said no one knows for sure. Somewhere in between the current format and no Rugby is all we know at this point.

I would deffo back an 8/6/6 outcome with a 34/33/33 split.Giving the Rabbo an extra percent will make them feel like they won

mystiroakey wrote:well there is another option- and it would still throw up a lot of mismatches- but just have 10 groups of 4 and the losing two sides go into the amiln and the top 2 go in to the HC.

That would of course kill the amiln- however the HC would BE GOLDEN!! and everyone gets a chance of getting in

Personally I like this sort of format - split it into cup / bowl / shield after the group stages

mystiroakey wrote:I would deffo back an 8/6/6 outcome with a 34/33/33 split.Giving the Rabbo an extra percent will make them feel like they won

I would back an 8/6/6 and give the Franglos somewhere in between their 52% and the 66% they want to keep them quiet. I would want a loooong contract though and not enough voting rights for them to control the comp.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:Here is  a question for you.  If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it?  After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just described the current Amlin almost to a tee, and that gives the answer to your question. It's the inclusion of some Pro12 teams that would improve the Amlin (not to "so good" level, but hopefully to a level that is more attractive to a wider set of fans, eyeballs and wallets.)

Adding some of the lesser Pro12 teams would broaden the appeal of the Amlinv2 with more borders to cross.
Banishing most of the minnows to a 3rd tier would reduce mismatches.
The real trick would be to provide enough incentives for all teams to take the pool stages seriously - it's conceivable that the Pro12 teams would take the competition seriously (as Dragons tend to do) and that would force the Franglo teams to up their game.

And are you seriously suggesting that middle-ranked Exeter's place is in the Amlin, while Cardiff's is HC?

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC.No matter how you dress it up the Amlin will always be a consolation cup and fans don't really care about winning a cup that none of the best teams compete in.I say this as a Leinster (reigning Amlin champons) fan.

There's a balance to be had - the HC or HCv2 would still have 10 high quality pool games each weekend, and the few number of mismatches would be reduced. The loss would be the reduction of the romance of underdogs competing well and gaining moral or actual victories.

It also depends on the perspective of the team and its supporters. I think it's fair to say that your expectations of success as a Leinster fan were and are higher than those of Newcastle or Oyannax (and rightly so). I would imagine that both those teams will be relishing European contests and Amlin success would be celebrated to the very rafters - League survival and success would still be first priority though. I wonder how Quins or Saints fans felt about their Amlin triumphs?

I would also do away with the rule that allows the Comp winners to drag another team from their country into the HC.

If you win the Amlin you REPLACE the lowest team from your country/league.

I would deffo back that outcome- but the last thing i would want is a long contract. This whole setup is destined to fail again tbh..

One league could potentially get really bad, the much better approach is go coefficient and allow an avenue for other leagues teams to get in(for the long term)

Lets just go for a 5 year contract so everyone makes a few quid still but on the side think about something much better that we can all work on together for the future

Take what is in the times with a large pinch of slat. Tehy have been consistent in pspread the PRL position as the truth and also the PRL spout off to the press in a way others do not. so a lazy journalist willalways have the PRL line to parrot.

If they really are not budging its a sad day for northern hemisphere rugby as the Rabo unions simply cannot concede to them.

However trhe solidaarity of the est of the unions and the IRB does mean that its the PRL teams who will be the outcasts and the ones with no european competition to play in. the rest will have a diminished comp.

I had a look at this the other day.

No team has won the HC and finished outside the top 6 of their league.

4 times the winner of the Amlin has.

These are the teams, their placing and the teams they would have replaced.

2001 Harlequins 11th Newcastle
2009 Northampton 8th Gloucester
2011 Harlequins 7th London Irish
2012 Biarritz 9th Racing Metro

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

TJ wrote:Take what is in the times with a large pinch of slat.  Tehy have been consistent in pspread the PRL position as the truth and also the PRL spout off to the press in a way others do not.  so a lazy journalist willalways have the PRL line to parrot.

If they really are not budging its a sad day for northern hemisphere rugby as the Rabo unions simply cannot concede to them.

However trhe solidaarity of the est of the unions and the IRB does mean that its the PRL teams who will be the outcasts and the ones with no european competition to play in.  the rest will have a diminished comp.

putting pride to one side, why? if no-one is having to give up any money, seriously, why? assuming a governance structure can be found that generally was acceptable.