Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Its not completely dead in the water. There is no way all the privinces would be allowed sign TH's for example.

I'd like to see Marshall get in for all 3 this autumn. I know the Ulster support are raving about Olding but I think Marshall has everything. Might need to be fitted for a spongey hat though.

Actually scrap that. I want to see a new face in at 12. What about gordon Darcy's  

Personally I'd pick Olding at 13 ahead of O'Driscoll.

You wouldn't catch his legs going with 15 minutes to go.....

Found this when I was looking on joe.ie

Samoa beating Wales last year; http://www.joe.ie/rugby/international-rugby/video-there-were-some-brilliant-tries-scored-in-cardiff-last-night/

No complacency in the camp, I'm sure.

Imagine how good Samoa would be at home.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Imagine how good Samoa would be at home.

Imagine how good Samoa would be if guys like John Afoa, Nick Williams, Sonny Bill Williams, Ma'a Nonu, Manu Tuilagi, Jerome Kaino etc. had opted to play for Samoa!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Its not completely dead in the water. There is no way all the privinces would be allowed sign TH's for example.

Really??

It is being rumoured, by a very relieable source, that Ulster will be allowed a NIQ TH to replace Afoa.

Anyway the original plan was only 1 player per position across the 3 senior provinces and no Province would be allowed to sign/re sign a player in the same position.

BJ Botha and Pienaer to name but two have shown that is no longer correct.

should be clear though - the more restrictive proposals re NIQ are dead in the water not the 5 maximum which we have worked under for years.
Sorry for not making that clear

Geoff, as far as I know, Munster had to sacrifice Wian to keep BJ for 2 years. Its not exactly hire who you want yet. BJ also has a coaching role as Munster's scrum coach wasn't retained.

Interview with Eddie Wigglesworth on the NIQ rules and on developing Irish talent. Asked about Botha resigning for Munster he says "It was in contravention of our guidelines but that’s all they are, guidelines."

So that is directly from the horses mouth.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/developing-the-next-generation-key-for-the-irfu-1.1585669

Got to say he seems to confirm my opinion of him as a very gormless kind of fella. Bottom line is he came up with a bunch of 'big ideas' and managed to have them leak out to the public when they still should have been at the draft stage.

He still has a job, somehow. One day we'll get someone capable into that role like David Humphreys but I suppose so long as Wigglesworth doesn't f up too badly in the interim we'll be alright- mainly because the Provincial Academies continue to produce very talented players, it's not much to do with him. We're alright because of the professionalism of the coaches at provincial level in bringing these guys on.

He also says "Ulster are not that strong in the propping position and they have a particular difficulty that we have to look at and consider but in the rest of the positions it has panned out." with regards to the number of tightheads allowed in the provinces, potentially indicating the door is open for us to recruit an NIQ tighthead.

Wigglesworth doesn't come across as a pleasant character but I agree with what he is trying to do.


Re props. There are 11 props in the academies currently. I would hope there'll be no more need for NIQ props in 3 to 4 years time.

I sat in front of Wigglesworth at a Leinster v Munster 'A' game and I was not impressed with his chat. Total Leinster head. He seemed to ignore the Munster staff as well, which was a bit off considering his position in the IRFU as he should have been there in an official capacity.

He's not very well regarded in the provinces it seems.

The indo are reporting that Heaslip will be captain.

I think we can all agree that's the right decision.

Sin é wrote:Geoff, as far as I know, Munster had to sacrifice Wian to keep BJ for 2 years. Its not exactly hire who you want yet. BJ also has a coaching role as Munster's scrum coach wasn't retained.

Understood but if the original proposals were enforced they should not have been allowed to sign him a second time because there was a TH at another province and they would be signing the same player again to play in the same position.
Same applies to Pienaer

I also know for a fact Ulster will be allowed to sign a NIQ 2nd row, and if someone else, who is reliable, is to be believed a NIQ TH.
It isn't hire who you want but it is a compromise with no hard and fast rules other than a limit, per Province, in total numbers i.e. what we had before

Mickado wrote:The indo are reporting that Heaslip will be captain.

I think we can all agree that's the right decision.

All agree?? Even Heaslip's mammy and daddy are up in arms about it!

Mickado wrote:The indo are reporting that Heaslip will be captain.

I think we can all agree that's the right decision.

You are joking

Elsewhere being tweeted it is POC if fit otherwise BOD
I'd go with that - as mentioned earlier no one stands out so do it on a match by match basis using the old hands if selected

rodders wrote:

Mickado wrote:The indo are reporting that Heaslip will be captain.

I think we can all agree that's the right decision.

All agree?? Even Heaslip's mammy and daddy are up in arms about it!

Yes. all agree.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Mickado wrote:The indo are reporting that Heaslip will be captain.

I think we can all agree that's the right decision.

You are joking

Elsewhere being tweeted it is POC if fit otherwise BOD
I'd go with that - as mentioned earlier no one stands out so do it on a match by match basis using the old hands if selected

I'm not joking that the Indo are reporting it:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/joe-schmidt-says-poc-is-crocked-29733609.html

I'm not saying it's true though.

I realise that but you are joking we all agree

I see the Ulster quota is still 3 starters and a sub then.

Gerrys team is different but again Heaslip seems to be captain. D'arcy and Jackson at 10/12. Henry at 7 with O'Brien and POC on the bench.

Standulstermen wrote:Gerrys team is different but again Heaslip seems to be captain. D'arcy and Jackson at 10/12. Henry at 7 with O'Brien and POC on the bench.

GT's relationship with Schmidt is not as cosy as it was with Dekkie. Assuredly.

Mickado wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Gerrys team is different but again Heaslip seems to be captain. D'arcy and Jackson at 10/12. Henry at 7 with O'Brien and POC on the bench.

GT's relationship with Schmidt is not as cosy as it was with Dekkie. Assuredly.

Joe knows what side his bread is buttered on.

I think thornley admitted himself he has no insider info. Between the IT and the indo though there are agreement between the captain, D'arcy, Jackson as the interesting calls.

Quick question but has mike McCarthy been going well this season. I thought his form wasn't great but he seems to be ahead of Tuohy who has been tearing up trees

It would be sickening if Luke Marshall and Dan Tuohy aren't involved. Both the Independent and the Irish Times reporting Gordon D'Arcy at 12, no Tuohy.

It's like Gatland and Jon Davies all over again. A coach sticking to who he knows over who deserves it. Fingers crossed this ain't so!

If Tuohy is not included significantly this Autumn it sends a terrible message - form means nothing

Standulstermen wrote:
Quick question but has mike McCarthy been going well this season. I thought his form wasn't great but he seems to be ahead of Tuohy who has been tearing up trees

From what I've seen there's no contest - McCarthy has been solid nothing more.

Touhy is better at the basics - scrum, lineout - is a better carrier, more powerful, has far better hands, dynamism and pace. Only area I'd rate McCarthy higher is doing the donkey work at the ruck... oh Donal Lenihan likes him so....

I wouldn't be worrying about it just yet. Both those lads have played a significant amount of gametime and I would hope/expect to see at least Marshall heavily involved in the last two tests. If Joe does go for D'arcy over Marshall in the later tests I would be massively disappointed

It's just crazy. We've been screaming out for some fresh blood at 12 since the 2007 RWC- last time our backline looked half-decent was the Six Nations before that. Surely the time to bed in a new 12 is when O'Driscoll is still around outside him. The Marshall/BOD partnership went well in the Six Nations, one of the very few positives...

As for Tuohy, he's just a better player than McCarthy or Toner- he's also in better form.

Whilst I agree notch I do think we will see the two guys mentioned. I cannot believe a coach as astute as Schmidt would have D'arcy as his first choice.

as long as marshall and tuohy end up starting the last two tests i'll be ok with it, if they don't i'd be upset and would consider it an opportunity lost

Notch wrote:It would be sickening if Luke Marshall and Dan Tuohy aren't involved. Both the Independent and the Irish Times reporting Gordon D'Arcy at 12, no Tuohy.

It's like Gatland and Jon Davies all over again. A coach sticking to who he knows over who deserves it. Fingers crossed this ain't so!

It's not at all, first test of a coaches new job versus last test of a 10 game series.

Lads. This is three tests against sides ranked above us. There will be minimal if any "development"

We are out to win these games. Darce still offers a serious amount. I'd say he will get the nod in all three as he knows what he is doing between Sexton and Drico. Marshall is the coming man. Darce will be trying to hold him off until WC 2015. That's the way it should be. Marshall will have to do a lot to shift him. I hope he does, because if he doesn't it is not great for Ireland.

If Marshall is getting a go it will be this week.

McCarthy and Tuohy is a tight call. Would be happy either way tbh.

Toner does not come into the McCarthy/Tuohy argument. He is there to run the lineout with POC not starting. (if the team is accurate)

It was always going to be him POC and one of McCarthy/Tuohy.

Standulstermen wrote:Whilst I agree notch I do think we will see the two guys mentioned. I cannot believe a coach as astute as Schmidt would have D'arcy as his first choice.

You said it yourself. He knows the score a lot better than you and me buddy. If he goes with Marshall I will take that as the best choice. Not sure he will though.

Mickado wrote:

Notch wrote:It would be sickening if Luke Marshall and Dan Tuohy aren't involved. Both the Independent and the Irish Times reporting Gordon D'Arcy at 12, no Tuohy.

It's like Gatland and Jon Davies all over again. A coach sticking to who he knows over who deserves it. Fingers crossed this ain't so!

It's not at all, first test of a coaches new job versus last test of a 10 game series.

Don't drag up that old sh1te. Nothing like the same situation at all for a start. Tight calls on those players. Nothing "sickening" about it.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Lads. This is three tests against sides ranked above us. There will be minimal if any "development"

We are out to win these games. Darce still offers a serious amount. I'd say he will get the nod in all three as he knows what he is doing between Sexton and Drico. Marshall is the coming man. Darce will be trying to hold him off until WC 2015. That's the way it should be. Marshall will have to do a lot to shift him. I hope he does, because if he doesn't it is not great for Ireland.

If Marshall is getting a go it will be this week.

McCarthy and Tuohy is a tight call. Would be happy either way tbh.

Toner does not come into the McCarthy/Tuohy argument. He is there to run the lineout with POC not starting. (if the team is accurate)

It was always going to be him POC and one of McCarthy/Tuohy.

You have to bring player on some time

Marshall is the obvious replacement for D'Arcy he needs playing NOW
We could go into next year with no one having any significant experience in the centre that is madness

McCarthy/Tuohy is not a tight call - if form means anything. Tuohy is playing the best rugby of his life
Anyone is rumours are correct Toner not Tuohy is on standby for POC -  that is complete and utter madness.
Toner should be nowhere near Samoa - completely the wrong player

geoff999rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Lads. This is three tests against sides ranked above us. There will be minimal if any "development"

We are out to win these games. Darce still offers a serious amount. I'd say he will get the nod in all three as he knows what he is doing between Sexton and Drico. Marshall is the coming man. Darce will be trying to hold him off until WC 2015. That's the way it should be. Marshall will have to do a lot to shift him. I hope he does, because if he doesn't it is not great for Ireland.

If Marshall is getting a go it will be this week.

McCarthy and Tuohy is a tight call. Would be happy either way tbh.

Toner does not come into the McCarthy/Tuohy argument. He is there to run the lineout with POC not starting. (if the team is accurate)

It was always going to be him POC and one of McCarthy/Tuohy.

You have to bring player on some time

Marshall is the obvious replacement for D'Arcy he needs playing NOW
We could go into next year with no one having any significant experience in the centre that is madness

McCarthy/Tuohy is not a tight call - if form means anything. Tuohy is playing the best rugby of his life
Anyone is rumours are correct Toner not Tuohy is on standby for POC -  that is complete and utter madness.
Toner should be nowhere near Samoa - completely the wrong player

You have obviously not been watching Toner. He is well able for this. He played against the ABs 3 years ago and has improved steadily since then.

No international side is going to play Tuohy and McCarthy together. They are too similar. One of them has to miss out. Toner and POC for the last 20 minutes would be better than Tuohy and McCarthy.

Hmm, it is quite similar though. There's maybe a better option out there but the coach goes with a combination he knows from a team he coaches prior to getting this job- not ringing any bells? He knows the player so rightly or wrongly he sticks with what he knows because the stakes are very high.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Lads.
We are out to win these games. Darce still offers a serious amount. I'd say he will get the nod in all three as he knows what he is doing between Sexton and Drico. Marshall is the coming man. Darce will be trying to hold him off until WC 2015. That's the way it should be. Marshall will have to do a lot to shift him. I hope he does, because if he doesn't it is not great for Ireland.

D'Arcy has been between them for the last few years and offered nothing at international level since '09, he's a spent force, he just doesn't seem comfortable there at times and doesn't have the same confidence and fluidity that he doesn't when in the blue of Leinster

Notch wrote:Hmm, it is quite similar. There's maybe a better option out there but the coach goes with a combination he knows from a team he coaches prior to getting this job- not ringing any bells? He knows the player so rightly or wrongly he sticks with what he knows because the stakes are very high.

I disagree. I think that Darce fits the team (with Sexton and Drico) than Marshall does. He also is waaaay more comfortable wit the "Joe Show"

If it was Paddy Jackson (which it may be for this game but not the other 2) and Darren Cave starting then Marshall may be the logical choice.

Which is why I think that if Marshall was to get a run it will be this week.

Yeah, D'Arcy hasn't offered anything for a number of years. He's a guy who is just... fine. Doesn't offer any linebreaks any more, doesn't really make yards in contact, doesn't really create opportunities for other players.

He's just... fine. Nothing special. He makes no big contribution. He's just a solid player, nothing special. It's not like he's "holding Marshall off". He just fills a shirt and thats all he's been doing for a number of years.

Well, if Paddy Jackson does start this week- it doesn't make any sense to have D'Arcy outside him. Thats just bizarre.

marty2086 wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Lads.
We are out to win these games. Darce still offers a serious amount. I'd say he will get the nod in all three as he knows what he is doing between Sexton and Drico. Marshall is the coming man. Darce will be trying to hold him off until WC 2015. That's the way it should be. Marshall will have to do a lot to shift him. I hope he does, because if he doesn't it is not great for Ireland.

D'Arcy has been between them for the last few years and offered nothing at international level since '09, he's a spent force, he just doesn't seem comfortable there at times and doesn't have the same confidence and fluidity that he doesn't when in the blue of Leinster

Seems like Joe Schmidt MAY not agree there.

A bit like people saying Heaslip was playing badly when he changed his game from "doing the flashy carrying stuff" to getting stuck in with the "Unseen work" ™ DOC.

Darce still makes yards in contact despite not looking like "Flash Gordon" of old. Massive in defence too.

Notch wrote:Well, if Paddy Jackson does start this week- it doesn't make any sense to have D'Arcy outside him. Thats just bizarre.

Probably agree there. Would be good to see the 2 of them together. Bizarre is a touch strong though. Still Darce and Drico there with their "telepathic understanding" to take down big Samoan feckers.

I'd imagine it is down to provincial partnerships at this stage. Toner is used to playing with McCarthy.

The international season will be built around giving Brian O'Driscoll a send-off (mostly to do with his ability to fill the Aviva than anything else). BOD likes playing with D'Arcy and Schmidt likes D'Arcy with BOD, so I think we will see a lot of them featuring together in BOD's last season. Marshall will get his chance next year when he will have another full year under his belt, perhaps playing alongside Jared Payne.

I don't think its surprising that the team is Leinstercentric - it only means that the Leinster players have a headstart with getting used to the coach and what he wants.

As for Heislip as captain - crickey, Schmidt preferred Leo & Jennings on their last legs at Leinster to Heaslip - it doesn't say a lot for the leadership qualities of our international players.

I actually think other players would complement BOD better- someone who has more gainline succes that he can run off the shoulder of. I honestly think D'Arcy-BOD isn't that great a combination for province or country and hasn't been for a long, long time. Just because Leinster haven't managed to produce a better centre than D'Arcy doesn't mean we have to put the blinkers on.

Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Have to disagree Jen. Sticking with tried and trusted was exactly the reason the last coach got serious stick. Introducing both Mike Ross and O'Brien long after he should have as well as Donnacha Ryan.

If Joe goes down that route then he is repeating mistakes. As for who we are playing it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference. We have a 22 year old who is playing better rugby than a 30+ yr old in the same position. That's a no brainer and exposing these young guys to the likes of Australia and new Zealand is the only way they develop the experience that guys like D'arcy are lauded for.

If we consider that the IRFU do not like tinkering in the 6N then we a going into next summers tour replacing both centres a year out from the RWC. That doesn't bear thinking about. If Marshall were in poor form I could understand but the younger, better alternative is there and I think Joe will use it.

I would say I don't mind starting D'arcy outside Jackson though as its more important to get Marshall and Sexton gametime together and I think asking any player to start all three games is a stretch ( especially if they have played as much as Marshall )

Toner has improved but he is not, inspite of his size, a physically powerhouse - I just think the Samoans will blow him away

Good post Stand