Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

Standulstermen wrote:Have to disagree Jen. Sticking with tried and trusted was exactly the reason the last coach got serious stick. Introducing both Mike Ross and O'Brien long after he should have as well as Donnacha Ryan.

Agree. One reason I was glad to see the back of Gert Smal. It was only a few days before Ross got his chance that Smal made a speech about Tony Buckley being "World Class"

I personally think there is more scope for experimentation in the 6N v Italy or Scotland for example. Joe will be longer in the job and they are ranked below us. All the teams in this are ranked above.

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Standulstermen wrote:Have to disagree Jen. Sticking with tried and trusted was exactly the reason the last coach got serious stick. Introducing both Mike Ross and O'Brien long after he should have as well as Donnacha Ryan.

You are rewring history here. O'Brien was not starting for Leinster - he got his chance when Jennings got suspended against LI and went to Aus for his suspension. When he came back to Leinster in January he was dropped to the bench, but Kidney picked him in the 6Ns.

D Ryan was behind POC & DOC for Munster - he was a bit unlucky because just after his first few caps, he broke his leg and missed most of a season which was at a bad time.

Ross's problem was his fitness. He could just about manage 60 mins of Heineken Cup rugby (x 2 games) when people now think he should have been picked.

The problem was that he was going to have to play for 80 mins in international rugby unless you wanted to bring on Tom Court at TH at 60 mins, because of 22 man squads and he wasn't up to it.

I know Jen but there is nothing riding on these games other than a good start. Schmidt is smart enough to know that means nothing (look at his first month with Leinster). 

It's not about experimenting for experimentings sake. It's just identifying the position in which there is the opportunity for development. I think 12 is the clearest of these at present given a lot of the younger guys (Zebo, Gilroy, henderson) are out. I would hope he continues in that vein and we see the likes of McGrath, Moore, Olding, Henderson really come through by this time next year.

As for D'arce I don't think his contribution in green is over but much like the way I felt about paddy Wallace at ulster last season I feel the best use of him now is helping with succession planning whilst being a solid option if required.

On the 2nd row I'm a bit more relaxed. Any Leinster fan I speak to has been saying that toner is going very well. My only slight surprise is seeing McCarthy there as I thought he was steady and no more.

I dont have an issue If Heaslip is captain either. Schmidt trusted him after Cullen at Leinster and he has done well for them. I would have plumped for Sexton if he was based in ireland

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Don't forget the kneeslip and the 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster  

You must wear ear plugs and a blindfold when watching rugby if you leave out Parisse in that lineup - and who was that guy he was dropped for on the Lions?

It's not the players but how they play.  With Joe, D'arcy played well enough to take a few HCs .  No, club rugby is not International - but success is success; and as Leinster were cruising, Ireland under a different coach were faltering and playing a radically different version of rugby...with many of the same players! Plus, the difference between club and International is the same difference for all - the old and the new.

So, let's all settle down and wait for Joe to be a failure by 'repeating the same mistakes' as his predecessor.  But choosing players running out of International time over players needing International time won't necessarily be that automatic mistake.

I'd suspect Joe is many things and smart is one of them.  I'd suspect Joe knows only too well that he'll need a real squad to have a shot at the WC.  He knows he'll have to give young alternatives substantial time.  He's not exactly a stranger to the idea of rotation....something he continually got much praise for at Leinster.
As long as people adhere to his systems and are capable of handling them (skillwise) then I'm sure he'll rapidly begin enlarging a genuine squad as distinct from a team of familiars.  
But I think he deserves a little time to decide for himself first what a 'mistake' is and what might be part of his long term planning.

Sin, come off it. It seems to be fairly trendy to dislike Heaslip now for some reason. Granted he may have been better a few years ago for Ireland but he was ridiculously good then in a team that was playing reasonably well.

He is actually still really really good now. Good enough to be a Lion anyway and deservedly so.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Well I can think of a Frenchman, an Italian, an Kiwi who are definitely better
I can think of a Welshman, a Saffer and an Australian who are as good

So in terms of the top teams he is a middling 8

Don't hate him - he is a very decent player but there are better No 8's in the world and he is not someone I rate as a captain

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Don't forget the kneeslip and the 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster  

You must wear ear plugs and a blindfold when watching rugby if you leave out Parisse in that lineup - and who was that guy he was dropped for on the Lions?

Parisse is a spoofer. How did he get on v Jamie in the Amlin Final?

Faletau is a great youngster who may or may not surpass Jamie. He is not there yet. Jamie started all but one of the last 6 Lions tests (I think. Can't remember for sure 4 years ago)

geoff999rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Well I can think of a Frenchman, an Italian, an Kiwi who are definitely better
I can think of a Welshman, a Saffer and an Australian who are as good

So in terms of the top teams he is a middling 8

Don't hate him - he is a very decent player but there are better No 8's in the world and he is not someone I rate as a captain

I gave you Read and I said arguably the next best. Middling 8 is a joke. Would take Jamie ahead of anyone bar Read.

GunsGerms wrote:Sin, come off it. It seems to be fairly trendy to dislike Heaslip now for some reason. Granted he may have been better a few years ago for Ireland but he was ridiculously good then in a team that was playing reasonably well.

He is actually still really really good now. Good enough to be a Lion anyway and deservedly so.

His discipline is appalling. A Red & a Yellow Card internationally. 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster.

Off the pitch in interviews, he doesn't come across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Can't wait for Pete to come on and defend Heaslip's disciplinary record since he was so dismissive of Denis Leamy for his discipline! 3 YC for Munster & 3 YC for Ireland.

And I also never said you hated him. That was Sin E

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin, come off it. It seems to be fairly trendy to dislike Heaslip now for some reason. Granted he may have been better a few years ago for Ireland but he was ridiculously good then in a team that was playing reasonably well.

He is actually still really really good now. Good enough to be a Lion anyway and deservedly so.

His discipline is appalling. A Red & a Yellow Card internationally. 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster.

Off the pitch in interviews, he doesn't come across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Can't wait for Pete to come on and defend Heaslip's disciplinary record since he was so dismissive of Denis Leamy for his discipline! 3 YC for Munster & 3 YC for Ireland.

That's what it all goes back to. Munster hates Heaslip because he took Leamy's spot.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Don't forget the kneeslip and the 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster  

You must wear ear plugs and a blindfold when watching rugby if you leave out Parisse in that lineup - and who was that guy he was dropped for on the Lions?

Parisse is a spoofer. How did he get on v Jamie in the Amlin Final?

Faletau is a great youngster who may or may not surpass Jamie. He is not there yet. Jamie started all but one of the last 6 Lions tests (I think. Can't remember for sure 4 years ago)

Correct.

But he got a red card a few years ago Jen (not the only captain candidate who has mind you). And his jeans were falling off him in that picture. And he named his dog after a rapper. Not. Captain. Material.

I think one of the big things with Joe is that he will not only TRUST his bench, but he will use it constructively. That alone will be a massive departure from the previous 2 reigns

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Don't forget the kneeslip and the 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster  

You must wear ear plugs and a blindfold when watching rugby if you leave out Parisse in that lineup - and who was that guy he was dropped for on the Lions?

Parisse is a spoofer. How did he get on v Jamie in the Amlin Final?

Faletau is a great youngster who may or may not surpass Jamie. He is not there yet. Jamie started all but one of the last 6 Lions tests (I think. Can't remember for sure 4 years ago)

More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Jamie was dropped and the Lions still won. He was lucky in SA - there were no No. 8s around to compete against him.

Mickado wrote:And his jeans were falling off him in that picture.

That's focking hilarious. Someone told me they made a big deal out of that photo on Munsterfans.  

Some people get worked up about the stupidest things.

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Don't forget the kneeslip and the 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster  

You must wear ear plugs and a blindfold when watching rugby if you leave out Parisse in that lineup - and who was that guy he was dropped for on the Lions?

Parisse is a spoofer. How did he get on v Jamie in the Amlin Final?

Faletau is a great youngster who may or may not surpass Jamie. He is not there yet. Jamie started all but one of the last 6 Lions tests (I think. Can't remember for sure 4 years ago)

More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Jamie was dropped and the Lions still won. He was lucky in SA - there were no No. 8s around to compete against him.

True, it was 3 years after Axel Foley had retired and the paucity of ligindary number 8's in this part of the world was evident.

[quote="Jenifer McLadyboy"]

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin, come off it. It seems to be fairly trendy to dislike Heaslip now for some reason. Granted he may have been better a few years ago for Ireland but he was ridiculously good then in a team that was playing reasonably well.

He is actually still really really good now. Good enough to be a Lion anyway and deservedly so.

His discipline is appalling. A Red & a Yellow Card internationally. 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster.

Off the pitch in interviews, he doesn't come across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Can't wait for Pete to come on and defend Heaslip's disciplinary record since he was so dismissive of Denis Leamy for his discipline! 3 YC for Munster & 3 YC for Ireland.

That's what it all goes back to. Munster hates Heaslip because he took Leamy's spot.[/quote]

Is this how your average Leinster fan's mind works. How petty.

Sin é wrote:More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Jamie was dropped and the Lions still won. He was lucky in SA - there were no No. 8s around to compete against him.

Yeah. Cause a game against Italy is SOOOO much more important that 5 Lions tests. No other 8s because he was the best.

You are descending into patheticness (Is that a word? No actually) at this stage. I am going to leave the Jamie stuff here because I know you never give up an argument no matter how wrong you are.

In other news. Actual team named in an hour.....

It's nice to see that at the dawn of a new coach, and an absolute need for him to be successful (at least to get some self respect back into the Green Shirt), that there is absolutely none of the Parish pump eejitry that infested these threads in the dying years of Kidney's rein.

It's refreshing to see - and long may it continue...

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin, come off it. It seems to be fairly trendy to dislike Heaslip now for some reason. Granted he may have been better a few years ago for Ireland but he was ridiculously good then in a team that was playing reasonably well.

He is actually still really really good now. Good enough to be a Lion anyway and deservedly so.

His discipline is appalling. A Red & a Yellow Card internationally. 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster.

Off the pitch in interviews, he doesn't come across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Can't wait for Pete to come on and defend Heaslip's disciplinary record since he was so dismissive of Denis Leamy for his discipline! 3 YC for Munster & 3 YC for Ireland.

One red and one yellow in international rugby isnt that bad at all. There are plenty of very good forwards with similar or worse record.

So what if he seems thick in interviews. Hes smart enough to be one of the most sucessful Irish players ever and claim a stake in a sucessful restaraunt. There are much thicker people in Ireland than Heaslip.

Sin é wrote:

Is this how your average Leinster fan's mind works. How petty.

No mate. It's not at all....... Anyway. Moving on.....

Sin é wrote:
More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Nothing to do with 15 international players unavailable because of injury? Probably the biggest injury list ever for a 6N game. That had no bearing?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Don't forget the kneeslip and the 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster  

You must wear ear plugs and a blindfold when watching rugby if you leave out Parisse in that lineup - and who was that guy he was dropped for on the Lions?

Parisse is a spoofer. How did he get on v Jamie in the Amlin Final?

Faletau is a great youngster who may or may not surpass Jamie. He is not there yet. Jamie started all but one of the last 6 Lions tests (I think. Can't remember for sure 4 years ago)

More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Jamie was dropped and the Lions still won. He was lucky in SA - there were no No. 8s around to compete against him.

True, it was 3 years after Axel Foley had retired and the paucity of ligindary number 8's in this part of the world was evident.

Axel retired in 2008. The Lions was in 2009. Martin Corry retired in 2009:D 

I'm also concerned about guys like Declan Fitzpatrick in the light of the Samoan physicality, but then you wouldn't say Ross is much better in that respect. However in terms of locks we do have more physical options than Devin Toner and it would be strange not to use them.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Nothing to do with 15 international players unavailable because of injury? Probably the biggest injury list ever for a 6N game. That had no bearing?

It didn't stop Kidney getting dropped  

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:And I also never said you hated him. That was Sin E

Understood but the claim he was second only to Reid as a no8 was a bit of a stretch and some.

Better than Picomoles (player of the tournament in the last 6N) and Parisse - don't think so
As I also mention there are others who are his equal

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Nothing to do with 15 international players unavailable because of injury? Probably the biggest injury list ever for a 6N game. That had no bearing?

It didn't stop Kidney getting dropped  

We had to drop someone at that stage! How far does an overloaded plane have to sink in the sky before you get to thinking a passenger or two might need to be sacrificed

Gotta agree with those who find it hard to see Heaslip in the Top 5 number 8s in test rugby.

For me, right now, it's;

1. Read
2. Parisse
3. Picamoles
4. Faletau
5. Vermeulen

Or maybe in a different order but anyway they are all guys I would rather have there than Jamie, fine player though he is. Not disputing his credentials to start for Ireland- he's the best 8 we have by some way. Very unconvinced by his leadership skills at this point.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I think one of the big things with Joe is that he will not only TRUST his bench, but he will use it constructively. That alone will be a massive departure from the previous 2 reigns

Jeez I hope so...

geoff999rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:And I also never said you hated him. That was Sin E

Understood but the claim he was second only to Reid as a no8 was a bit of a stretch and some.

Better than Picomoles (player of the tournament in the last 6N) and Parisse - don't think so
As I also mention there are others who are his equal

Can Heaslip do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB-DJ8zyAZQ

I really like Jamie, but I would have Reid, Picomoles and Parisse over him everyday!

Bit off topic but think Gillian Galan will be the best 8 in the world within the next few years!

That chubby cheeked destroyer of men? Maybe so, but he'll need to improve his conditioning to really mature into a test-class 8.

petethepete wrote:I really like Jamie, but I would have Reid, Picomoles and Parisse over him everyday!

Bit off topic but think Gillian Galan will be the best 8 in the world within the next few years!

Who's she?  

Jeez, I forgot all about Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe! Now there's a guy who pishes all over Heaslip from any position in the back row.

Not putting down Heaslip. He just has a ways to go to match the genuinely top class number 8s out there. Maybe Joe can get the best of him? I remember when Heaslip came on the scene I really thought he had what it takes to really develop into a world class player and we're all still waiting, you know?

It would be brilliant if Schmidt could finally get him living up to his potential.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Nothing to do with 15 international players unavailable because of injury? Probably the biggest injury list ever for a 6N game. That had no bearing?

It didn't stop Kidney getting dropped  

How do you know Heaslip wont be stripped of the captaincy? Im sure he will. Still a very good player though even if he rocks the dropped trouser look.

Notch wrote:That chubby cheeked destroyer of men? Maybe so, but he'll need to improve his conditioning to really mature into a test-class 8.

Ha, very true, but still only 22, I just I just love that type of 8! Fast becoming my favorite player! Dont think he will ever last a match, he got MOM against Sarries in the HC and only played 50 mins!!

French seem blessed with 8's! Whereas after Heaslip we would struggle at Test level!

Heaslip was world class in 09 but has still yet to reach that level in terms of his ball carrying.

He is still very good at the back of the scrum, tackling making turnovers etc. he has made some crucial turnovers over the last couple of years.

He's a good player.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Nothing to do with 15 international players unavailable because of injury? Probably the biggest injury list ever for a 6N game. That had no bearing?

It didn't stop Kidney getting dropped  

How do you know Heaslip wont be stripped of the captaincy? Im sure he will. Still a very good player though even if he rocks the dropped trouser look.

What, you think we should wait for a second defeat to Italy before he gets stripped of the captaincy  

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin, come off it. It seems to be fairly trendy to dislike Heaslip now for some reason. Granted he may have been better a few years ago for Ireland but he was ridiculously good then in a team that was playing reasonably well.

He is actually still really really good now. Good enough to be a Lion anyway and deservedly so.

His discipline is appalling. A Red & a Yellow Card internationally. 8 Yellow Cards for Leinster.

Off the pitch in interviews, he doesn't come across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Can't wait for Pete to come on and defend Heaslip's disciplinary record since he was so dismissive of Denis Leamy for his discipline! 3 YC for Munster & 3 YC for Ireland.

One red and one yellow in international rugby isnt that bad at all. There are plenty of very good forwards with similar or worse record.

So what if he seems thick in interviews. Hes smart enough to be one of the most sucessful Irish players ever and claim a stake in a sucessful restaraunt. There are much thicker people in Ireland than Heaslip.

1-2 Yellow is average. Red is very unusual in international rugby (i.e., remember the uproar over Sam Warburton's one) ?

Heaslip is the first Irish player to get a Red Card.

It's all building to a four tries, seven assists game for Heaslip at the weekend...

Hah, yes- this is all getting a bit ridiculous. Heaslip is like cat-nip for Munster fans. He seems to represent everything they dislike in a player besides having the temerity to be the best number 8 in the country.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
More relevant is how did Jamie lead Ireland v Italy in the last 6Ns? First loss to Italy in about 20 years.

Nothing to do with 15 international players unavailable because of injury? Probably the biggest injury list ever for a 6N game. That had no bearing?

It didn't stop Kidney getting dropped  

How do you know Heaslip wont be stripped of the captaincy? Im sure he will. Still a very good player though even if he rocks the dropped trouser look.

What, you think we should wait for a second defeat to Italy before he gets stripped of the captaincy  

Im not sure why you would think that? Not really consistent with what I have said.

I'm not sure where I rate Heaslip in the grand scheme of number 8s. Parisse is good for Italy but his weaker games are glossed over at times and I have not seen him be half as effective for is club. 

Picamoles is very very good but again in terms of consistency over a number of years it's difficult to call. Similarly I think faletau can either be great or else become a constant crabber stifling Wales momentum. It will be interesting to see how Heaslip goes under Schmidt. I do rate Vermeulen above him and needless to say Read is a country mile in front of everyone

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/live_streaming.php

Right lets 'ave it!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Sorry Jen, but that really is complete rubbish.  I know you are a fan, but Heaslip has been well off the mark compared to many other 8s, never mind being considered one of the best rugby players on the planet..

He has been so inconsistent over the past few years.

I agree with Jen actually - well sort off....

In that for me as individual players Marshall and Touhy offer considerably more than D'arcy and McCarthy.

However its not about individuals but about implementing the Joe show at International level. D'arcy is a key cog for Joe and maybe McCarthy fits the bill a bit more.

Given this is Joes first test and he's still getting used to his players then its not surprising he's gone with the tried and tested.

Samoa is not the game for Marshall anyways given his concussion record.... hopefully he'll get the nod against Australia but who knows.