Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Notch wrote: I've been a bit baffled by the idea that Kevin McLaughlin will displace O'Mahony for instance, even if he is a good grafter who complements SOB and Heaslip

Because McLaughlin, SOB and Heaslip have impressed as a unit at the highest level and POM, SOB and Heaslip have yet to do the same?  If they do then well and good and I'm not saying "O'Mahony should be dropped" but I think the jury is out on the backrow as an entity.

60 mins Ireland 17                     -                    Samoa 15

80 mins Ireland 31                     -                    Samoa 15

          Tries; Bowe, O'Driscoll,
                   Cronin

          Pens; Jackson (4)

          Conv; Jackson (1),
Madigan (1)

Engine#4 wrote:

Notch wrote: I've been a bit baffled by the idea that Kevin McLaughlin will displace O'Mahony for instance, even if he is a good grafter who complements SOB and Heaslip

Because McLaughlin, SOB and Heaslip have impressed as a unit at the highest level and POM, SOB and Heaslip have yet to do the same?  If they do then well and good and I'm not saying "O'Mahony" should be dropped" but I think the jury is out on the backrow as an entity.

I would not say that that combination is tried and tested at international level- I know they had a good outing together against the All Blacks in 2012 but how many other starts do they have together in test rugby?

Engine#4 wrote:

Notch wrote: I've been a bit baffled by the idea that Kevin McLaughlin will displace O'Mahony for instance, even if he is a good grafter who complements SOB and Heaslip

Because McLaughlin, SOB and Heaslip have impressed as a unit at the highest level and POM, SOB and Heaslip have yet to do the same?  If they do then well and good and I'm not saying "O'Mahony" should be dropped" but I think the jury is out on the backrow as an entity.

Spot on Engine. And its bleedin great. So many options. Hence all the opinions on the makeup of the unit. All of which are right. Wish it was like that all over the squad. 10 is good. So well covered now. As are the wings. 9 has youth and experience.  There is also a shift in the force that is the frontrow. 2 is grand with Best, Strauss and Cronin. Moore is showing up to backup and replace Ross. McGrath will get the chance to worry Healy tomorrow. I pray he does.

The rest needs serious work. Specially the centres. McFadden should be at 12 now. Thought Joe would make that switch at Leinster before he left. I don't understand it. Dorce is playing well and is a safe option in Schmidts 1st game. Must be it. He rates McFadden so highly as a footballer. I reckon he will play him more often than not. We have enough wingers. Move McFadden to 12 Joe. Then sort out his new partner.

Oh man Gibbo, that ship has sailed long ago! Sure it was Schmidt who moved McFadden to wing in the first place!

Notch wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Notch wrote: I've been a bit baffled by the idea that Kevin McLaughlin will displace O'Mahony for instance, even if he is a good grafter who complements SOB and Heaslip

Because McLaughlin, SOB and Heaslip have impressed as a unit at the highest level and POM, SOB and Heaslip have yet to do the same?  If they do then well and good and I'm not saying "O'Mahony should be dropped" but I think the jury is out on the backrow as an entity.

I would not say that that combination is tried and tested at international level- I know they had a good outing together against the All Blacks in 2012 but how many other starts do they have together in test rugby?

None that I can think of and you're right of course it is untested but there is precedence so it will keep being suggested until another backrow combination convinces. On the centres however, starting with 6 Nations 2015 I expect Ulster players to fill green jerseys for many years to come.

As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Conservative selections? ... Possible... Though that wasn't the issue with Kidney - for me and a few others anyway.  Many do like to paint tactics and gameplans onto distinct players chosen to play.  I don't.  The players chosen wasn't the issue but the strategy/tactics/gameplan itself was needlessly conservative and based on low risk careful-careful defending of slight leads

Hopefully, Joe will not be too worried about the particular players he's choosing but moreso concerned with the pro-actively attack orientated game he'll be trying to sustain.

It won't be Joe who is trying to develope his plans to suit the individual skills of players at his disposal, but the players, whoever they happen to be, who will have to quickly adapt to his demands of them instead.  That's the way I like things to be rather than the other way round.  And that's why I tend to blame coaches more than other people might.  And I'll blame Schmidt too if I see stodgy gameplans from him too.  

But we only have four sides to pull from mostly - the numbers will always be conservative as by the law of averages we'll always only have so many International-ready players.

I often felt like Kidney picked the right players in terms of selection and then managed to make them look like the wrong ones.

We're Irish rugby fans, there's no such thing as an uncontroversial selection! I feel like this week Joe has been conservative in selecting McCarthy and D'Arcy who would be entering the end of their usefulness and pretty forward thinking in picking McGrath and Jackson who will mature and grow into key Ireland players down the line.

ME-109 wrote:As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Well Schmidt has already shown a degree of experimentation that Kidney never did.O'Connell,Healy and SoB all on the bench against a team ranked ahead of us.

In the interest of balance however Kidney never had to experiment against a team ranked higher as we always had one relatively soft game in the AI's before this,I'm sure Schmidt would have used a soft game in that manner too if he had one.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:Look at all the people outraged with his inclusion last season. At the start of the season all the talk was about Henderson coming in at 6 for Ireland despite POM being the best player on the American tour. You also have people questioning his workrate, physicality, discipline, size etc.

He had a good game against Canada but was outmuscled by Clever against the USA. People would take POM more seriously if people like Lenihan wouldn't hype into a superstar and acknowledge his short comings. He's a good player and good captain but he's not the finished article yet.

He was easily the best player on the park in that game. Its not a bodybuilding contest Rodders!

Dinny Linihin. Had pints with de man in Clermont. Loves de girls. Tremeeendjous!

POM looks the part. Really does. But he needs to do it continuously at the highest level. Not there yet.  

I really think McLaughlin has a huge part to play here. Was ahead of SOB before he got injured a while back. He's a key part of the Leinster unit. He's Richard Hill incarnate. Great option.

Notch wrote:Oh man Gibbo, that ship has sailed long ago! Sure it was Schmidt who moved McFadden to wing in the first place!

The answer is simple Notch. Darcy.

Its held him back, but he was too good not to play. Hence the wing.

Gibson wrote:Dinny Linihin. Had pints with de man in Clermont. Loves de girls. Tremeeendjous!

POM looks the part. Really does. But he needs to do it continuously at the highest level. Not there yet.  

I really think McLaughlin has a huge part to play here. Was ahead of SOB before he got injured a while back. He's a key part of the Leinster unit. He's Richard Hill incarnate. Great option.

He was never ahead of SOB. SOB is one of the first names on the sheet I'd imagine especially this year given his form. Locky is a great player though especially for away games.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Well Schmidt has already shown a degree of experimentation that Kidney never did.O'Connell,Healy and SoB all on the bench against a team ranked ahead of us.

In the interest of balance however Kidney never had to experiment against a team ranked higher as we always had one relatively soft game in the AI's before this,I'm sure Schmidt would have used a soft game in that manner too if he had one.

Except that you conveniently ignore that both POC and SOB are still recuperating and did not train fully and Sexton/Earls/Zebo are not available. If all were fully fit they would be playing.

As Fly and Notch said it's more about how they play..

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Well Schmidt has already shown a degree of experimentation that Kidney never did.O'Connell,Healy and SoB all on the bench against a team ranked ahead of us.

In the interest of balance however Kidney never had to experiment against a team ranked higher as we always had one relatively soft game in the AI's before this,I'm sure Schmidt would have used a soft game in that manner too if he had one.

Except that you conveniently ignore that both POC and SOB are still recuperating and did not train fully and Sexton/Earls/Zebo are not available. If all were fully fit they would be playing.

As Fly and Notch said it's more about how they play..

I'm not convinced we'll be seeing much of Earls under Schmidt.

Kevin McLaughlin? McFadden at centre?

Lordy lord.

Don Alfonso wrote:Kevin McLaughlin? McFadden at centre?

Lordy lord.

ye players that have won multiple HC's, they must be awful right?

Gibson wrote:

Notch wrote:Oh man Gibbo, that ship has sailed long ago! Sure it was Schmidt who moved McFadden to wing in the first place!

The answer is simple Notch. Darcy.

Its held him back, but he was too good not to play. Hence the wing.

And now he's stuck there for good. Forget it man. It's done. D'Arcy will retire, to be succeeded by Marshall or Olding. McFadden will continue to win a few caps on the wing but be in and out of the Ireland side. His provincial coach will keep him out there too.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Well Schmidt has already shown a degree of experimentation that Kidney never did.O'Connell,Healy and SoB all on the bench against a team ranked ahead of us.

In the interest of balance however Kidney never had to experiment against a team ranked higher as we always had one relatively soft game in the AI's before this,I'm sure Schmidt would have used a soft game in that manner too if he had one.

Except that you conveniently ignore that both POC and SOB are still recuperating and did not train fully and Sexton/Earls/Zebo are not available. If all were fully fit they would be playing.

As Fly and Notch said it's more about how they play..

I'm not convinced we'll be seeing much of Earls under Schmidt.

Maybe, maybe not...who knows as he is injured at the moment. However his form says otherwise..

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Kevin McLaughlin? McFadden at centre?

Lordy lord.

ye players that have won multiple HC's, they must be awful right?

Oh wow! On their own? Bravo!

I must look really foolish, having said they are awful. Point out where that is again, for me, would you?

Don Alfonso wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Kevin McLaughlin? McFadden at centre?

Lordy lord.

ye players that have won multiple HC's, they must be awful right?

Oh wow! On their own?  Bravo!

I must look really foolish,  having said they are awful.  Point out where that is again,  for me,  would you?

Well when you write Kevin McLaughlin? in that context, That usually means you don't think he is good enough for Ireland, no?

Well, that doesn't mean I think he's awful. I'd take him at Ulster in a heartbeat. I don't think he's good enough to be anything other than the very occasional Ireland player. The popular Leinster narrative about him is that he's under-rated. I think some Leinster fans then get carried away with how good he actually is.

I don't think McFadden is as good as Marshall or Olding.

Fair enough. I agree that Mcfadden is not the future 12. For me its Olding as he looks like a real special talent.

GunsGerms wrote:…. I could go on about him all day as a person and rugby player. He was also the first favorite player I had growing up.

Interesting.

Just hope Olding delivers. You never can tell.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Gibson wrote:Dinny Linihin. Had pints with de man in Clermont. Loves de girls. Tremeeendjous!

POM looks the part. Really does. But he needs to do it continuously at the highest level. Not there yet.  

I really think McLaughlin has a huge part to play here. Was ahead of SOB before he got injured a while back. He's a key part of the Leinster unit. He's Richard Hill incarnate. Great option.

He was never ahead of SOB. SOB is one of the first names on the sheet I'd imagine especially this year given his form. Locky is a great player though especially for away games.

Was too Fan. Check back 2 years or so ago. Locky was the man at 6. In place of an injured Ferris. SOB was just showing up.

BTW, under Schmidt, Earls is dust. Backup winger at most now.

McFadden is basically depending on getting provincial gametime at 12 and I don't see that coming. I mean, Leinster aren't well-stacked with wingers.

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:Look at all the people outraged with his inclusion last season. At the start of the season all the talk was about Henderson coming in at 6 for Ireland despite POM being the best player on the American tour. You also have people questioning his workrate, physicality, discipline, size etc.

He had a good game against Canada but was outmuscled by Clever against the USA. People would take POM more seriously if people like Lenihan wouldn't hype into a superstar and acknowledge his short comings. He's a good player and good captain but he's not the finished article yet.

What about the rest of the 6ns Rodders didn't you watch him then also except for POM dragging Ireland over the line it is quite probable we would have lost one or both of those tests. Indeed have you watched him much this year? Probably not based on your comments. Also tune into Phillip Matthews tomorrow in terms of comments about POM he absolutely raves about him (constantly). No he isn't the finished article but in terms of a No.6 he will be around for some time to come and its only a matter of time until he is captain....

Yes POMs in good form this year - fair play he's a fine young man with a big future.....and besides who cares what Phillip Mathews thinks? he's just another IRFU crony gobshoi........ what... Guns...NOOOOOO!!!!!!

Don Alfonso wrote:Well, that doesn't mean I think he's awful. I'd take him at Ulster in a heartbeat.  I don't think he's good enough to be anything other than the very occasional Ireland player.  The popular Leinster narrative about him is that he's under-rated.  I think some Leinster fans then get carried away with how good he actually is.

I don't think McFadden is as good as Marshall or Olding.

Hes a more complete footballer. A fierce competitor.  A born international. He will figure in most of Schmidts teams and squads. Believe me.

Marshall should get a crack at 12  for sure. Dunno about Olding, its far too early yet.

Philip Matthews is a good guy. Don't be an ass rodders.

McFadden is now a winger who can cover centre. not the other way around.

Gibson wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Gibson wrote:Dinny Linihin. Had pints with de man in Clermont. Loves de girls. Tremeeendjous!

POM looks the part. Really does. But he needs to do it continuously at the highest level. Not there yet.  

I really think McLaughlin has a huge part to play here. Was ahead of SOB before he got injured a while back. He's a key part of the Leinster unit. He's Richard Hill incarnate. Great option.

He was never ahead of SOB. SOB is one of the first names on the sheet I'd imagine especially this year given his form. Locky is a great player though especially for away games.

Was too Fan. Check back 2 years or so ago. Locky was the man at 6. In place of an injured Ferris. SOB was just showing up.

BTW, under Schmidt, Earls is dust. Backup winger at most now.

Ill take your word on it Gibbo  

I like McFadden. Shoite player but his attitude is tops and that goes a long way.

Gibson wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Well, that doesn't mean I think he's awful. I'd take him at Ulster in a heartbeat.  I don't think he's good enough to be anything other than the very occasional Ireland player.  The popular Leinster narrative about him is that he's under-rated.  I think some Leinster fans then get carried away with how good he actually is.

I don't think McFadden is as good as Marshall or Olding.

Hes a more complete footballer. A fierce competitor.  A born international. He will figure in most of Schmidts teams and squads. Believe me.

Marshall should get a crack at 12  for sure. Dunno about Olding, its far too early yet.

Gibson, I think you are in danger of replacing Jennings as your ridiculously over rated player with McFadden.

Notch wrote:Philip Matthews is a good guy. Don't be an ass rodders.

And one with a sense of humour too I'm told.

It's true. You're going a wee bit overboard now.

He's an okay winger for Ireland. I'm happy now when he's selected he won't let us down and he's a hard worker with a nose for the tryline. Not sure I'd have him in the 23 when Zebo, Earls and Gilroy are all fit and he'll struggle to be a regular in the same way Bowe and Kearney are. He's a good player for Leinster, very consistent, and a good squad player for Ireland. I also like the fact he offers another place kicking option.

He's not getting gametime at centre for Leinster and hasn't for a while so it's a wee bit of a moot point as to whether he can play that role, I'd suggest he's not being thought of as a centre at this stage in his career.

I'm not sure anyone is dust and I do think McLaughlin might win more than the odd cap. As I recall Schmidt used him to great effect in the 2011/2012 Heineken knockouts. Didn't he destroy Leicesters lineout. I wouldn't be surprised if Schmidt sees a weakness he feels McLaughlin could exploit that he would use him. At the same time the likes of O'Mahoney could be able to do that and more possibly. It's to difficult to call at this point. On the centres it is hard to look past ulster but henshaw could have something to say or even JJ depending on gametime and where he develops (more likely 10 at present). 


Geoff mentioned that within the ulster setup they look at Jackson, Henderson and Olding as their three jewels so to speak and I have to say Olding does look like a guy who just thinks that split second quicker than 99% of other players. 


Listened to Horgan today on the second captains podcast and he backed all the calls (unsurprisingly) even praised Jacksons development over this season which was good to hear. Interestingly he said Luke Marshall was the best conditioned out of All the squad though and he hinted that he would feature.


As much as Joe says this is the team I think he will make changes between the first two games and amalgamate what he feels is his strongest 23 for NZ.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Philip Matthews is a good guy. Don't be an ass rodders.

And one with a sense of humour too I'm told.

Maybe he said something good about ROG as well rodders is that the problem?

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Philip Matthews is a good guy. Don't be an ass rodders.

And one with a sense of humour too I'm told.

Maybe he said something good about ROG as well rodders is that the problem?

Sure its would take a man with a sense of humour to say something nice about ROG....

Notch wrote:McFadden is basically depending on getting provincial gametime at 12 and I don't see that coming. I mean, Leinster aren't well-stacked with wingers.

There is an interview with McFadden in the last few days where he says he sees (and his coaches) himself as a winger now.

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Philip Matthews is a good guy. Don't be an ass rodders.

And one with a sense of humour too I'm told.

Maybe he said something good about ROG as well rodders is that the problem?

Sure its would take a man with a sense of humour to say something nice about ROG....

Or maybe just someone with a little bit of knowledge of the game Rodders...something you certainly can't be accused of...

Samoa are without top 5 I hear. 27 - 15 it is I believe . Could be wrong. But I do feel we have a little to much strength for them. Completely honest opinion. If it's closer we are not performing.

Oh ye fools for ye cannot see. McFadden is one player Joe will pencil in 1st. Deal with it.

Darcys time is almost up at Leinster and McFadden is already gelled into the Irish squad. Its just a matter of time. He moves inside continually and affects things as it is. That's why Joe plays him. Wants to see Bowe do the same thing. Go figure de math.

I'm almost certain it was last season McFadden went to Schmidt and requested he get a run in one position as much as possible so it would help his Ireland chances. With fitz out I think Schmidt gave him a run at wing and he hasn't gone back

Artful_Dodger wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Well Schmidt has already shown a degree of experimentation that Kidney never did.O'Connell,Healy and SoB all on the bench against a team ranked ahead of us.

In the interest of balance however Kidney never had to experiment against a team ranked higher as we always had one relatively soft game in the AI's before this,I'm sure Schmidt would have used a soft game in that manner too if he had one.

Except that you conveniently ignore that both POC and SOB are still recuperating and did not train fully and Sexton/Earls/Zebo are not available. If all were fully fit they would be playing.

As Fly and Notch said it's more about how they play..

I'm not convinced we'll be seeing much of Earls under Schmidt.

If that is the case, we will never see Trimble, Cave or Gilroy, Fitzgerald again in green as Earls made the squad ahead of all of them.

Gibson wrote:Oh ye fools for ye cannot see. McFadden is one player Joe will pencil in 1st. Deal with it.

Darcys time is almost up at Leinster and McFadden is already gelled into the Irish squad. Its just a matter of time. He moves inside continally and affects things as it is. That's why Joe plays him. Wants to see Bowe do the same thing. Go figure de math.

Letting go is hard, Gibbo, isn't it?

Don Alfonso wrote:

Gibson wrote:Oh ye fools for ye cannot see. McFadden is one player Joe will pencil in 1st. Deal with it.

Darcys time is almost up at Leinster and McFadden is already gelled into the Irish squad. Its just a matter of time. He moves inside continually and affects things as it is. That's why Joe plays him. Wants to see Bowe do the same thing. Go figure de math.

Letting go is hard,  Gibbo, isn't it?

Ja.I never let go Don. Never.  

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Philip Matthews is a good guy. Don't be an ass rodders.

And one with a sense of humour too I'm told.

Maybe he said something good about ROG as well rodders is that the problem?

Sure its would take a man with a sense of humour to say something nice about ROG....

Or maybe just someone with a little bit of knowledge of the game Rodders...something you certainly can't be accused of...

Very kind of you ME, I'd be quite upset if people said I'd only a little knowledge of the game....

Sin é wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:As with his tenure at leinster and similar to DK I believe old Joe will be quite conservative in his selections and not very experimental.

Well Schmidt has already shown a degree of experimentation that Kidney never did.O'Connell,Healy and SoB all on the bench against a team ranked ahead of us.

In the interest of balance however Kidney never had to experiment against a team ranked higher as we always had one relatively soft game in the AI's before this,I'm sure Schmidt would have used a soft game in that manner too if he had one.

Except that you conveniently ignore that both POC and SOB are still recuperating and did not train fully and Sexton/Earls/Zebo are not available. If all were fully fit they would be playing.

As Fly and Notch said it's more about how they play..

I'm not convinced we'll be seeing much of Earls under Schmidt.

If that is the case, we will never see Trimble, Cave or Gilroy, Fitzgerald again in green as Earls made the squad ahead of all of them.

I'd agree with all except Gilroy who was injured and is still only 22.  I very much doubt we'll be seeing any of Trimble, Cave or Fitzgerald under Schmidt.