Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Toland played for Leinster so its hardly surprising that he would lean towards Madigan. He seem concerned about Jackson's defense? Do you refute that concern?

Yeah, thought that remark was very peculiar indeed as Paddy is a good defender for a 10 who doesn't shirk the physical stuff.

Not saying that they can't make yards down his channel- you've just to watch their last test against South Africa to see the likes of Mulipola knocking out Siya Kolisi with a big carry. You'd say Siya Kolisi is a pretty good defender in most situations but some of these guys have incredible power! It's going to be a tough day for us in defence from 1 to 15. Whats strange is seeing Jackson getting singled out before the game as it hasn't been a weakness of his game at all in his career so far.

I'm sure they will try and send some power runners down his channel early on to try and unsettle him, it'll be a good test for him but he's no doormat either. He's tougher than Toland gives him credit for.

Wouldnt argue with that. I agree he is a good tackler. Toland's article isnt very helpful either Ill admit because given he is inexperienced he will need fan support. Articles like this dont help. Schmidt is no pushover, if he didnt think Jackson was good enough he would have gone with Madigan simple as that.

Notch wrote:I was pretty irked by Liam Toland in todays Irish Times. He was talking about how Schmidt has 22 games before the 2015 RWC to get his squad sorted out- and then suggests that because Jackson appears to be ahead of Madigan for this series he only has 19 games left to find a back-up to Sexton for that tournament  

I love being Irish, and I love supporting my team in international rugby but sometimes the press bias against some of our players is very pronounced and it makes it very difficult to stay objective.

Did you read the whole piece, Notch?  I don't mind a journalist being damned for blatant bias (although when you think about it, that's the nature of opinion - we all express a bias)
Anyway, I'm trying to read between the lines of the particular bias you're addressing.  Without putting words in your mouth - I assume it has a bearing on what Province Paddy plays for?
Toland, well, he has to be given the grace all of us here are given - he has an opinion on the players he prefers over players he is less confident about.  That's his right, and he is stating that he personally doesn't rate Madigan as a third choice flyhalf.  He's suggesting that if Schmidt doesn't give Madigan a shot at one of the games this Autumn, that pushes back any analysis Schmidt could be doing on both Jackson and Madigan as they face top level opponents.  
He's saying he doesn't see the role of 2nd 10 as having been decided yet, until Madigan is given a fair crack.  That might be seen as insulting to some who deem Paddy now officially No2, but it would be insulting to Toland to suggest he has to agree with that opinion.  He's only expresing one - like all of us.

Now, he also went on to say he likes the idea of Henry operating alonside O'Brien.  He also says he would have liked to see Ian Henderson in a Cortney Lawes role and is kinda disappointed he's not playing.

Hardly the article of a tribalist - if that's the bias you were indeed refering to.

Notch wrote:Hope Paddy has an absolute stormer tomorrow. A 21-year old outhalf starting for Ireland is a pretty big vote of confidence. ROG was 22 and a few weeks shy of his 23rd birthday when he made his debut, Humphreys was 25, Madigan was 23 and a few weeks short of his 24th birthday and Sexton was 24.

Absolutely and for those old enough to remember ROG was 26 or so before he was half decent - Humphs played his best stuff in his 30's ......

Munster fans/Donal Lenihan/Hookie: Oh no he wasn't

Rodders: Oh yes he was!

There would be certain unwritten rules about how Paddy was treated if he was a promising young Leinster player- the great white hope of Irish rugby, Poopie gold and pisses champagne etc.- it's not that our players don't get good press occasionally more that they aren't extended the amnesty of understanding that goes with a Southern accent and made the scapegoats when one is needed.

Fairly average looking team with a very strong bench. Is Schmidt expecting an easy game against Samoa?

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Toland played for Leinster so its hardly surprising that he would lean towards Madigan. He seem concerned about Jackson's defense? Do you refute that concern?

Yeah, thought that remark was very peculiar indeed as Paddy is a good defender for a 10 who doesn't shirk the physical stuff.

Seconded, indeed its one of the strongest aspects of his game. In fact along with the likes of Farrell, Wilkinson(of old) and Sexton he's one of the better tackling 10's around so its a bizarre thing to single him out on.....

Notch wrote:There would be certain unwritten rules about how Paddy was treated if he was a promising young Leinster player- it's not that our players don't get good press occasionally more that they aren't extended the amnesty of understanding that goes with a Southern accent and made the scapegoats when one is needed.

Notch its not like Ulster fans to voice such conspiracy theories. Toland is a former Leinster player, of course he is going to be biased. No unwritten rule really just bias or maybe he just rates Madigan higher. Who cares.

Ulster players arent used as scapegoats. Now you are defo being daft!!

Jackson defence is a strength not a weakness.

Secret - the fact that Madigan, who is 3 years older than Jackson, will not start an AI, unless injuries intervene, and is currently second choice at Leinster speaks volumes.

I do think Schmidt has a number of position he is not certain who his first choice is and he will experiment accordingly - to me they are TH, POC's partner in the 2nd row, the best balance in the back row (who looses out out of the 3 Saturday starters alongside SOB), 12 and, going into next year, who is his best 13 and 15.

The rest of the team I suspect is pretty settled in his mind.

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:I was pretty irked by Liam Toland in todays Irish Times. He was talking about how Schmidt has 22 games before the 2015 RWC to get his squad sorted out- and then suggests that because Jackson appears to be ahead of Madigan for this series he only has 19 games left to find a back-up to Sexton for that tournament  

I love being Irish, and I love supporting my team in international rugby but sometimes the press bias against some of our players is very pronounced and it makes it very difficult to stay objective.

Did you read the whole piece, Notch?  I don't mind a journalist being damned for blatant bias (although when you think about it, that's the nature of opinion - we all express a bias)
Anyway, I'm trying to read between the lines of the particular bias you're addressing.  Without putting words in your mouth - I assume it has a bearing on what Province Paddy plays for?
Toland, well, he has to be given the grace all of us here are given - he has an opinion on the players he prefers over players he is less confident about.  That's his right, and he is stating that he personally doesn't rate Madigan as a third choice flyhalf.  He's suggesting that if Schmidt doesn't give Madigan a shot at one of the games this Autumn, that pushes back any analysis Schmidt could be doing on both Jackson and Madigan as they face top level opponents.  
He's saying he doesn't see the role of 2nd 10 as having been decided yet, until Madigan is given a fair crack.  That might be seen as insulting to some who deem Paddy now officially No2, but it would be insulting to Toland to suggest he has to agree with that opinion.  He's only expresing one - like all of us.

Now, he also went on to say he likes the idea of Henry operating alonside O'Brien.  He also says he would have liked to see Ian Henderson in a Cortney Lawes role and is kinda disappointed he's not playing.

Hardly the article of a tribalist - if that's the bias you were indeed refering to.

Just read the article, and Toland took a cheap shot at Paddy. No doubt. 19 games to find a number two outhalf? That's a cheap shot. Cheap shot = cheap journalism. Paddy has nothing to prove on that front, and certainly not to the likes of Toland who goes on to praise Toner... If I suspect any of those players to be in for a tough time of it tomorrow I would question Toner's ability to take the big hits. Hopefully my concerns are unfounded.

I'd say the only nailed on guys are:

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12
11
10 Sexton
9
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6
5 O'Connell
4
3
2 Best
1 Healy

Murray, O'Mahoney and Ross are likely starters and for the rest its everything to play for.

Kearney Jr to 11 and either Madigan or Marshall to 12? And Jennings/McLaughlin at 6 .

Even with the fact Schmidt knows Reddan well and knows he combines well with Sexton, I think Conor Murray is probably nailed on unless he has a really poor game- I'm not expecting that.

Saint; SOB, POC, Healy and Sexton all had limited time in training due to injuries so Schmidt has selected the team that has had the most amount of time together in the past two weeks.

Prior to the team announcement, every pundit has been saying out the Samoans love running down the 10 channel and they are big boys.

His other point about whether Ian Madigan is 3rd choice? (For the record, I think he is), but there is logic to having Ian Madigan on the bench as he is a bit different to Sexton. The other point worth noting is that Sexton does not take kindly to being taken off, so whoever his cover is better get used to sitting on the bench a la Paddy Wallace.

I think you are all being a tad too defensive here about the criticism - for feck sake, Toland (a Munster man by birth) advocates dropping POM to accommodate Henry at Openside!

geoff998rugby wrote:Jackson defence is a strength not a weakness.

Secret - the fact that Madigan, who is 3 years older than Jackson, will not start an AI, unless injuries intervene, and is currently second choice at Leinster speaks volumes.

I do think Schmidt has a number of position he is not certain who his first choice is and he will experiment accordingly - to me they are TH, POC's partner in the 2nd row, the best balance in the back row (who looses out out of the 3 Saturday starters alongside SOB), 12 and, going into next year, who is his best 13 and 15.

The rest of the team I suspect is pretty settled in his mind.

Madigan is unlucky to be second choice at Leinster IMO. I have no doubt if Schmidt was there he would be first choice. Its fairly clear O'Connor favours a different brand of rugby

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

There is another largish gap back to the rest. I am not a huge fan of Henry, but having teased out all the options he is currently the next best. Personally I think he moves at the speed of a glacier, which rules him out as a link man in the mould of Gleeson. Good on the deck (but not better than SOB there) and a very committed and solid player. Can also play 3 positions in the back row but not at test level imho.

I am presuming that I am the "People" that you refer to.

Artful Dodger seemed to also have issues with something in that paragraph which he has yet to explain beyond "Oh Please"

As me ole mate Rory makes the point for me here, and why I used the phrase 2013 SOB in another post. He is now well up there on his deck work. Is he better than Henry? Is Henry better than him? You could argue either way but it is an argument not a FACT.

As some of you have pointed out Henry is a very smart player with a good rugby brain which covers his lack of pace.

To expand on the Gleeson thing. (Another guy with a great rugby brain AND pace) Linking forwards and backs is another aspect of 7 play.

Gleeson was THE link man in his day. You could see him on the bottom of a ruck one minute and seconds later popping up on the shoulder of a centre to receive a pass 40 yards away. "Where the fock did he come from?"

That is where I was coming from on Henry. He may have the nous to be that player but not the pace.

When O'Mahony first emerged I was arguing for Henry to be ahead of him for Ireland with SOB to 6.

Now I feel with the improvement in O'Mahony generally and the improvement in SOB's deck work that Henry would be the one to bench.

All 3 players (SOB, POM & Henry) Can play across the back row. But SOB at 6 from the start is not a great option from a lineout perspective.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:Are there really people that think O'Brien is better on the deck than Henry?  

...why? Thats very strange. Is this the same school of thought that holds that Toner is more mobile than Tuohy?

Well it isn't that strange, in the HEC game against the Ospreys O'Brien totally outplayed Tipuric in that regard, who is considered one of the best around on the deck.

The other great and positive thing in a Joe Schmidt Ireland 23 is, that each one of those 23 players has a role in the game. No more stuff like Leo Cullen coming on for 6 seconds at the end of a game etc.

Look at the role Jennings had for Leinster under Joe. And the 2 x scrum halves, LH props, etc.

The way Joe has named the team for tomorrow with perceived starters all over the bench highlights this. (And of course injuries)

However, I do think Henry is more consistent when it comes to the breakdown.

Sin é wrote:Prior to the team announcement, every pundit has been saying out the Samoans love running down the 10 channel and they are big boys.

His other point about whether Ian Madigan is 3rd choice? (For the record, I think he is), but there is logic to having Ian Madigan on the bench as he is a bit different to Sexton. The other point worth noting is that Sexton does not take kindly to being taken off, so whoever his cover is better get used to sitting on the bench a la Paddy Wallace.

I think you are all being a tad too defensive here about the criticism - for feck sake, Toland (a Munster man by birth) advocates dropping POM to accommodate Henry at Openside!

Quite right too.

I don't buy into the idea that Jackson is now the clear second choice imo it's still pretty 50/50 between him and Madigan. Joe Schmidt would obviously be a big fan of what Madigan can bring into the game coming off the bench, so we might see that right now Jackson is the preferred choice to start if Sexton is unavailable but Madigan is preferred to bench regardless of whether it's Sexton or Jackson in the starting line-up.

Even if Jackson does do well tomorrow, has a good game and all that I wouldn't be surprised if Madigan is on the bench and Sexton starts against the Aussies. Madigan really does offer a game changing style coming on in the second half plus he can cover more positions.

Sin é wrote:Prior to the team announcement, every pundit has been saying out the Samoans love running down the 10 channel and they are big boys.

His other point about whether Ian Madigan is 3rd choice? (For the record, I think he is), but there is logic to having Ian Madigan on the bench as he is a bit different to Sexton. The other point worth noting is that Sexton does not take kindly to being taken off, so whoever his cover is better get used to sitting on the bench a la Paddy Wallace.

I think you are all being a tad too defensive here about the criticism - for feck sake, Toland (a Munster man by birth) advocates dropping POM to accommodate Henry at Openside!

You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it

Notch wrote:I don't buy into the idea that Jackson is now the clear second choice imo it's still pretty 50/50 between him and Madigan. Joe Schmidt would obviously be a big fan of what Madigan can bring into the game coming off the bench, so we might see that right now Jackson is the preferred choice to start if Sexton is unavailable but Madigan is preferred to bench regardless of whether it's Sexton or Jackson in the starting line-up.

Even if Jackson does do well tomorrow, has a good game and all that I wouldn't be surprised if Madigan is on the bench and Sexton starts against the Aussies. Madigan really does offer a game changing style coming on in the second half plus he can cover more positions.

I don't think it matters that much who's on the bench behind Sexton,in the big games Schmidt never took Sexton off unless the game was won and I doubt that'll change until Jackson or Madigan step up to a level where they can challenge Sexton for a staring spot.All in all I'm pretty happy with that team as long as Marshall gets a start in one of the Tests.Tuohy probably deserves some decent gametime too going on reports (I haven't seen as much rugby as I'd like this year so have seen far more of Leinster than the other provinces) and I'd like to have seen Henshaw get a run at 13 but maybe that will wait til the 6N.

I think Murray(definitely) and a fit Zebo(probably) are nailed on
13 and 15 will be up for grabs next year once the Payne factor comes into play
If POM gets game time at 8 it could be debateable as well

ME-109 wrote:

You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it[/quote]
So he's dead to you. Is that what you're saying?

I would be surprised if Payne wasn't nailed on at 13 or 15. Zebo had a wee bit of a lions hangover (nothing unusual) so I wouldn't say he was nailed on but definitely the strongest probable for the shirt

GunsGerms wrote:
You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it

So he's dead to you. Is that what you're saying?[/quote]
Nah..i don't find his column to be any good and usually biased as with this one.

I'm really proud that we have given Samoa this opportunity to play top level Test rugby. They deserve it.

ME-109 wrote:You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it

GunsGerms wrote:
So he's dead to you. Is that what you're saying?

ME-109 wrote:[Nah..i don't find his column to be any good and usually biased as with this one.

He is the best journalist for technical analysis in Ireland. That article wasnt his best though. Whose column do you like?

Right enough of this Madigan this and Madigan that! Look the guy isn't getting selected for Leinster - non of this unlucky jazz either - Copperth, who's a bit of a journeyman, is playing better and is trusted more in the big games by the coach....

Until he sees of Jimny Choppers challenge and earns the trust of the coach who sees him day in day out then he can't be seen as the second choice fly-half in the country, expecially when you have guys like Jacko, Keatley and JJ playing week in week out in big matches.

It's not just O'Conner either - smoking Joe and Deccie had their doubts about him too, so don't like shoot the messenger man....

JJ isn't playing week in week out let alone in the big matches. But your point is fair enough except Joe did trust Madigan in the big games.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it

GunsGerms wrote:
So he's dead to you. Is that what you're saying?

ME-109 wrote:[Nah..i don't find his column to be any good and usually biased as with this one.

He is the best journalist for technical analysis in Ireland. That article wasnt his best though. Whose column do you like?

generally like Quinlan as its entertaining and informative. Lenihan is good for overall game analysis

LeinsterFan4life wrote:JJ isn't playing week in week out let alone in the big matches. But your point is fair enough except Joe did trust Madigan in the big games.

Not if all his charges were available. He certainly knows him well so if he hasn't picked him then he has his reasons - just like D'arcy v Marshall, Toner v Touhy. If familiarity has earned the latter 2 tight calls then maybe its fair to assume that the reverse if true of Madser.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it

GunsGerms wrote:
So he's dead to you. Is that what you're saying?

ME-109 wrote:[Nah..i don't find his column to be any good and usually biased as with this one.

He is the best journalist for technical analysis in Ireland. That article wasnt his best though. Whose column do you like?

generally like Quinlan as its entertaining and informative. Lenihan is good for overall game analysis

I like Quinlan as a guy and a rugby player. As a pundit he is too cautious and diplomatic. You wont get anything other than safe commentry from him. I do enjoy his column though as he does have plenty of good anicdotes.

Lenihan is a decent pundit alright but have never read any of his columns. Does he have one?

Your choice of favorite pundits does of course indicate you too have your own biases  

Donal Lenihan has a column in the Examiner. You can read them all here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/donal-lenihan/

Murray Kinsella is excellent on technical analysis. His blog is here, but he writes for the thescore.ie now and the Rugby Site.

http://touchlinerugby.com/

Fla's blog on joe.ie is mad - today he has analysis of himself as a pundit.

Sin é wrote:Donal Lenihan has a column in the Examiner. You can read them all here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/donal-lenihan/

Murray Kinsella is excellent on technical analysis. His blog is here, but he writes for the thescore.ie now and the Rugby Site.

http://touchlinerugby.com/

Fla's blog on joe.ie is mad - today he has analysis of himself as a pundit.

He is an interesting character alright Flannery. Thanks Sin.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You mean bitter/failed ex Munster man who never got picked and still has a bee in his bonnet over it

GunsGerms wrote:
So he's dead to you. Is that what you're saying?

ME-109 wrote:[Nah..i don't find his column to be any good and usually biased as with this one.

He is the best journalist for technical analysis in Ireland. That article wasnt his best though. Whose column do you like?

generally like Quinlan as its entertaining and informative. Lenihan is good for overall game analysis

I like Quinlan as a guy and a rugby player. As a pundit he is too cautious and diplomatic. You wont get anything other than safe commentry from him. I do enjoy his column though as he does have plenty of good anicdotes.

Lenihan is a decent pundit alright but have never read any of his columns. Does he have one?

The part about Quinlan being diplomatic is true but he gives a good balanced view I think. Toland might be good technically but taking POM as an example. He just doesn't analyse him at all and the comments on Madigan v Jackson seemed to be from the back of a packet of cigarettes.. I like Phillip Matthews when he commentates on games as he is about the most intelligent and informative in terms of a running commentary (having said that he is one of my favoured past players for Ireland so I am biased).

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:Donal Lenihan has a column in the Examiner. You can read them all here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/donal-lenihan/

Murray Kinsella is excellent on technical analysis. His blog is here, but he writes for the thescore.ie now and the Rugby Site.

http://touchlinerugby.com/

Fla's blog on joe.ie is mad - today he has analysis of himself as a pundit.

He is an interesting character alright Flannery. Thanks Sin.

Best comment...

George Hook had set the bar incredibly low by consistently behaving like a granddad who’s been startled by a loud fart and starts ranting nonsensically

ME-109 wrote:The part about Quinlan being diplomatic is true but he gives a good balanced view I think. Toland might be good technically but taking POM as an example. He just doesn't analyse him at all and the comments on Madigan v Jackson seemed to be from the back of a packet of cigarettes.. I like Phillip Matthews when he commentates on games as he is about the most intelligent and informative in terms of a running commentary (having said that he is one of my favoured past players for Ireland so I am biased).

Nice to see someone else appreciates Matthews commentary. Best commentator in the NH and I could go on about him all day as a person and rugby player. He was also the first favorite player I had growing up.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The part about Quinlan being diplomatic is true but he gives a good balanced view I think. Toland might be good technically but taking POM as an example. He just doesn't analyse him at all and the comments on Madigan v Jackson seemed to be from the back of a packet of cigarettes.. I like Phillip Matthews when he commentates on games as he is about the most intelligent and informative in terms of a running commentary (having said that he is one of my favoured past players for Ireland so I am biased).

Nice to see someone else appreciates Matthews commentary. Best commentator in the NH and I could go on about him all day as a person and rugby player. He was also the first favorite player I had growing up.

Hard as nails and then some...

Philip Matthews is a really good guy off the pitch from chatting to people who have met him and a very good commentator. Commentary is something he does out of passion for the game and that comes through. He has a successful career independent of rugby so he doesn't need to take on any commentary- he just does it because he loves rugby and thats who you want to listen to.

In terms of the mainstream pundits (not freelance journos or bloggers) I really enjoy Alan Quinlans columns- I always make an effort to read them. Um, pretty much all Nordie pundits are sheeit. Maurice Field? Jeez... I actually read the Irish Times more than the Belfast Telegraph because the BelTel is so poor for rugby recently.

I appreciate the alternative that blogs like Whiff of Cordite and Demented Mole offer to the mainstream media, the established journos have the connections but the bloggers can give you an opinion without having to worry about ending up on an IRFU blacklist, and they write for a less general audience too.

Notch wrote:Philip Matthews is a really good guy off the pitch from chatting to people who have met him and a very good commentator. Commentary is something he does out of passion for the game and that comes through. He has a successful career independent of rugby so he doesn't need to take on any commentary- he just does it because he loves rugby and thats who you want to listen to.

In terms of the mainstream pundits (not freelance journos or bloggers) I really enjoy Alan Quinlans columns- I always make an effort to read them. Um, pretty much all Nordie pundits are sheeit. Maurice Field? Jeez... I actually read the Irish Times more than the Belfast Telegraph because the BelTel is so poor for rugby recently.

I appreciate the alternative that blogs like Whiff of Cordite and Demented Mole offer to the mainstream media, the established journos have the connections but the bloggers can give you an opinion without having to worry about ending up on an IRFU blacklist, and they write for a less general audience too.

I'd agree there Notch. The WOC boys and the Mole give good analysis from a different perspective than the normal journos, and they aren't afraid to use technical terms in their commentary. They play to their audience and know what they're on about. In fact I know quite a few from here post on the WOC blog comments section.

Another great blog is Andy McGeady's who does a lot of the statistical analysis that most of us claim to know about, and he explains it well too! He teamed up with WOC for a article a few months ago on player welfare and game time... Interesting read!

In term of traditional journos, just be glad we have the likes of Quinlan, Toland, Williams etc to provide some sort of decent coverage compared to the Scotsman and the Herald in Scotland which struggle to name the correct player half the time in their captions never mind providing decent analysis...

The time the Hootsman said Duncan Weir was Richie Gray was most amusing...

Mickado wrote:

profitius wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:In my eyes, the second set translates pretty well. Henry for Jennings with Heaslip and SOB should work.

I do not believe for even a moment that POM is a like for like with McLaughlin. I think POM is a good player but pretty overrated in Ireland as a whole. Even if he was a better player I still believe that leaves the balance of the backrow 'off' as POM doesn't get through enough donkey work to accommodate SOB and Heaslip to do what they do best.

In terms of horses for courses selections though....there aren't enough thumbs to put up to this

POM is probably the most underrated player playing for Ireland! He is consistently good to excellent and wins numerous MOTM awards especially in the big games and he is as important to Munster as POC is.


I don't know why you think he doesn't do enough the donkey work to accommodate Heaslip and SOB??

How can a player than consistently picks up MOTM awards be underrated?

I rate POM, I think he's currently our best option at 6 and he's been quality for Munster this season, so this has nothing to do with him, more that people seem to think players are underrated when clearly they're not.

Red Stag had a great rant about this in the past RE John Hayes, during the 6nations on a weekly basis pundits and fans alike would get misty eyed talking about Hayes and how he never gets any credit, missing out on the irony altogether.

Look at all the people outraged with his inclusion last season. At the start of the season all the talk was about Henderson coming in at 6 for Ireland despite POM being the best player on the American tour. You also have people questioning his workrate, physicality, discipline, size etc.


I would agree about John Hayes but this is different.

profitius wrote:Look at all the people outraged with his inclusion last season. At the start of the season all the talk was about Henderson coming in at 6 for Ireland despite POM being the best player on the American tour. You also have people questioning his workrate, physicality, discipline, size etc.

He had a good game against Canada but was outmuscled by Clever against the USA. People would take POM more seriously if people like Lenihan wouldn't hype into a superstar and acknowledge his short comings. He's a good player and good captain but he's not the finished article yet.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:
In term of traditional journos, just be glad we have the likes of Quinlan, Toland, Williams etc to provide some sort of decent coverage compared to the Scotsman and the Herald in Scotland which struggle to name the correct player half the time in their captions never mind providing decent analysis...

The time the Hootsman said Duncan Weir was Richie Gray was most amusing...

Sounds like the Belfast Telegraph. Their leading "rugby journo" wrote a lot about Roger Wilson 'coming up against his old team' in the build-up to our game against Leicester. I'm sure the Northampton fans would have been amused to read that  

The Telegraph is genuinely embarrassing.

Ireland is full of nepotism North and South. The rugby fraternity is small and even though its a professional sport now the old boy mentality is alive and well at many levels of the game - coaching, administration and the media. Its very hard to get genuinely knowledgeable and impartial view on things.

In fact listening to people like Will Greenwood discuss our teams and players is a breath of fresh air.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:Look at all the people outraged with his inclusion last season. At the start of the season all the talk was about Henderson coming in at 6 for Ireland despite POM being the best player on the American tour. You also have people questioning his workrate, physicality, discipline, size etc.

He had a good game against Canada but was outmuscled by Clever against the USA. People would take POM more seriously if people like Lenihan wouldn't hype into a superstar and acknowledge his short comings. He's a good player and good captain but he's not the finished article yet.

What about the rest of the 6ns Rodders didn't you watch him then also except for POM dragging Ireland over the line it is quite probable we would have lost one or both of those tests. Indeed have you watched him much this year? Probably not based on your comments. Also tune into Phillip Matthews tomorrow in terms of comments about POM he absolutely raves about him (constantly). No he isn't the finished article but in terms of a No.6 he will be around for some time to come and its only a matter of time until he is captain....

Right lads gonna start to need score predictions? Remember suppress excitement and nerves. Separate heart from head. This time 24 hours we will be analysing the game. Best of luck Ireland.

Ireland 27 -15 Samoa

rodders wrote:Ireland is full of nepotism North and South. The rugby fraternity is small and even though its a professional sport now the old boy mentality is alive and well at many levels of the game - coaching, administration and the media. Its very hard to get genuinely knowledgeable and impartial view on things.

In fact listening to people like Will Greenwood discuss our teams and players is a breath of fresh air.

I presume you would agree completely with what Greenwood would say about a player like ROG so?  

I like O'Mahony. Like many of our players he is not as good as his supporters make him out to be and absolutely nowhere near as bad as his detractors make him out to be! Similar to Heaslip. I've been a bit baffled by the idea that Kevin McLaughlin will displace O'Mahony for instance, even if he is a good grafter who complements SOB and Heaslip well and I don't get why the people who think moving O'Brien to 8 and dropping Heaslip think thats a good idea.

I think O'Mahony has all the attributes of a test class backrow and hopefully now he will put them all together at last.

Notch wrote:I like O'Mahony. Like many of our players he is not as good as his supporters make him out to be and absolutely nowhere near as bad as his detractors make him out to be! Similar to Heaslip. I've been a bit baffled by the idea that Kevin McLaughlin will displace O'Mahony for instance, even if he is a good grafter who complements SOB and Heaslip well and I don't get why the people who think moving O'Brien to 8 and dropping Heaslip think thats a good idea.

I think O'Mahony has all the attributes of a test class backrow and hopefully now he will put them all together at last.

This is no place for reasoned debate...

RugbyFan182 wrote:Right lads gonna start to need score predictions? Remember suppress excitement and nerves. Separate heart from head.  This time 24 hours we will be analysing the game.  Best of luck Ireland.

Ireland 27 -15 Samoa

That'll do nicely,money where my mouth is I've backed Ireland -9 at evens.Confident that the team picked is more than capable of that and the impact off the bench (wow I haven't used those words in an Irish context in years) will mean we play hard for the full 80 and drive home any advantage we get.

Ireland 37  - Samoa 20

Disappointing lapses in defence letting Samoa in for two.  Promising and punishing desire to keep the foot on the peddle to the end giving us four.

 No, I don't bet on games so I can afford to be so detailed in my prediction..... I hope.

I don't expect us to offer that much in attack- we'll have a few moves that we know very well as opposed to lots of new moves we don't know well. Schmidt will start simple and very clear and slowly increase the repertoire over the coming months.