Zlatan or Ronaldo

First topic message reminder :

Unfortunately the world cup will be without two of the best , and more importantly entertaining players, thanks to Sweden meeting Portugal in the play-off.

It's a damn shame but who would you rather see gracing the premier footballing tournament nest summer?

Zlatan or Ronaldo?

Kind of, but it really depends on which trench you're setting yourself up in, because both positions could be argued. He does start as a winger, but he plays more like a forward.

I realise you and CS won't agree with each other though, there is far too much sexual tension between the two of you.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And if you follow up the chain you get to my original comment, answering the OP, which you jumped on.

You're the one chasing me around, poor little thing.

I actually want to discuss your original commet. You said Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games and fails to live up to expectations against the big teams etc. A few people on here have said the same thing and I would like to know what games you are talking about that he has gone missing in. In a different thread I listed some of the big teams Ibrahimovic has scored against and the list includes Barcelona, Rel madrid, Arsenal, Athletico madrid, inter milan, roma, juventus, Spain, portugal, england and brazil among many others.

What big games have you seen him in that he has gone quiet in?

Well, you don't get much bigger than guiding your country into the World Cup. Ronaldo stepped up to the plate in legendary fashion. Zlatan was non-existent in the first game and totally outshone in the second, his 2 goals generously over-playing his actual effect and extent of dominance on the game.

sodhat wrote:Kind of, but it really depends on which trench you're setting yourself up in, because both positions could be argued. He does start as a winger, but he plays more like a forward.

I realise you and CS won't agree with each other though, there is far too much sexual tension between the two of you.

Lol, tbh I've never said there's any certainty or right answer. Been quite clear on that. My point has always been he isn't a nailed on unequivocal undoubted unquestionable 'striker' or 'left winger'. In my eyes he's just an enigma, best in the world, and players of his nature are too good to be pigeon-holed into narrow definitions of 'position'. All that matters is that he's on your teamsheet, nothing else is important.

Ronaldo is not a winger and he is not a striker.  He is a forward.  Simple.
In a 4-4-2 he would be a winger. Unless he is playing off the striker.
In a 4-3-3 he is a forward.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And if you follow up the chain you get to my original comment, answering the OP, which you jumped on.

You're the one chasing me around, poor little thing.

I actually want to discuss your original commet. You said Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games and fails to live up to expectations against the big teams etc. A few people on here have said the same thing and I would like to know what games you are talking about that he has gone missing in. In a different thread I listed some of the big teams Ibrahimovic has scored against and the list includes Barcelona, Rel madrid, Arsenal, Athletico madrid, inter milan, roma, juventus, Spain, portugal, england and brazil among many others.

What big games have you seen him in that he has gone quiet in?

Well, you don't get much bigger than guiding your country into the World Cup.  Ronaldo stepped up to the plate in legendary fashion. Zlatan was non-existent in the first game and totally outshone in the second, his 2 goals generously over-playing his actual effect and extent of dominance on the game.

He scored 10 goals in world cup qualification and 2 goals against portugal in the play off. Are you seriously suggesting that Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games after he scored 10 goals in qualification and 2 goals in the play offs?

What I am guessing is that you can't think of any games where Ibra has gone quiet so you are using a very bad example of the game against portugal where Ibra scored 2 goals

MIG wrote:Ronaldo is not a winger and he is not a striker.  He is a forward.  Simple.
In a 4-4-2 he would be a winger. Unless he is playing off the striker.
In a 4-3-3 he is a forward.

I agree, but I would add that a forward is not a striker. In a 433 he would play as the wide left forward which is a hybrid of winger/striker which = forward.

Yeah....thats basically what I said.

MIG wrote:Yeah....thats basically what I said.

yep.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And if you follow up the chain you get to my original comment, answering the OP, which you jumped on.

You're the one chasing me around, poor little thing.

I actually want to discuss your original commet. You said Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games and fails to live up to expectations against the big teams etc. A few people on here have said the same thing and I would like to know what games you are talking about that he has gone missing in. In a different thread I listed some of the big teams Ibrahimovic has scored against and the list includes Barcelona, Rel madrid, Arsenal, Athletico madrid, inter milan, roma, juventus, Spain, portugal, england and brazil among many others.

What big games have you seen him in that he has gone quiet in?

Well, you don't get much bigger than guiding your country into the World Cup.  Ronaldo stepped up to the plate in legendary fashion. Zlatan was non-existent in the first game and totally outshone in the second, his 2 goals generously over-playing his actual effect and extent of dominance on the game.

He scored 10 goals in world cup qualification and 2 goals against portugal in the play off. Are you seriously suggesting that Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games after he scored 10 goals in qualification and 2 goals in the play offs?

What I am guessing is that you can't think of any games where Ibra has gone quiet so you are using a very bad example of the game against portugal where Ibra scored 2 goals

Lol, so the perfectly valid example game is actually 'very bad' because it goes against what you're saying..... #classic

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And if you follow up the chain you get to my original comment, answering the OP, which you jumped on.

You're the one chasing me around, poor little thing.

I actually want to discuss your original commet. You said Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games and fails to live up to expectations against the big teams etc. A few people on here have said the same thing and I would like to know what games you are talking about that he has gone missing in. In a different thread I listed some of the big teams Ibrahimovic has scored against and the list includes Barcelona, Rel madrid, Arsenal, Athletico madrid, inter milan, roma, juventus, Spain, portugal, england and brazil among many others.

What big games have you seen him in that he has gone quiet in?

Well, you don't get much bigger than guiding your country into the World Cup.  Ronaldo stepped up to the plate in legendary fashion. Zlatan was non-existent in the first game and totally outshone in the second, his 2 goals generously over-playing his actual effect and extent of dominance on the game.

He scored 10 goals in world cup qualification and 2 goals against portugal in the play off. Are you seriously suggesting that Ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games after he scored 10 goals in qualification and 2 goals in the play offs?

What I am guessing is that you can't think of any games where Ibra has gone quiet so you are using a very bad example of the game against portugal where Ibra scored 2 goals

Lol, so the perfectly valid example game is actually 'very bad' because it goes against what you're saying..... #classic

he scored 2 goals in that game...................

Tell me some other big games he has performed badly in, should be interesting based on your previous example where you said ibrahimovic played badly against portugal when he scored 2 goals  

Ok, so you get excited about irrelevant goals? Okey doke. Makes sense. Whatever keeps your Ibra hard-on going....

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ok, so you get excited about irrelevant goals? Okey doke. Makes sense.  Whatever keeps your Ibra hard-on going....

Wouldn't call 2 goals the 2nd of which put his team 2-1 up in a world cup play off game against portugal irrelevant.

Anyway please tell me some more big games he went quiet in?

I used to think Ibra was very overrated because every time I watched him play he did nothing but I had heard so many times how great he was.  I can't name specific games because I don't tend to remember every game I've ever watched.  I would imagine they would have been CL and Internationals though.
He does seem to be stepping up more and more in the big games these days and his scoring records and stats speak for themselves now.
He clearly is one of the best strikers in the world at the moment but as a player vs player comparison he is not on the same level as Ronaldo.

I'm with MIG on this one. Whenever he was on tv, he would dissappoint. That's not to say he went missing in big games, as I don't watch the Milan derbies, or so on.
Lately though, he has looked at least decent, and sometimes out of this world, when on the gogglebox.

MIG wrote:I used to think Ibra was very overrated because every time I watched him play he did nothing but I had heard so many times how great he was.  I can't name specific games because I don't tend to remember every game I've ever watched.  I would imagine they would have been CL and Internationals though.
He does seem to be stepping up more and more in the big games these days and his scoring records and stats speak for themselves now.
He clearly is one of the best strikers in the world at the moment but as a player vs player comparison he is not on the same level as Ronaldo.

Agree with every word of that.

Sadly your opinion is totally invalid, MIG, unless you can name every exact game you've ever watched Zlatan in and quote the minute he was imperfect and what exactly he did wrong etc etc etc.....

TopHat24/7 wrote:

MIG wrote:I used to think Ibra was very overrated because every time I watched him play he did nothing but I had heard so many times how great he was.  I can't name specific games because I don't tend to remember every game I've ever watched.  I would imagine they would have been CL and Internationals though.
He does seem to be stepping up more and more in the big games these days and his scoring records and stats speak for themselves now.
He clearly is one of the best strikers in the world at the moment but as a player vs player comparison he is not on the same level as Ronaldo.

Agree with every word of that.

Sadly your opinion is totally invalid, MIG, unless you can name every exact game you've ever watched Zlatan in and quote the minute he was imperfect and what exactly he did wrong etc etc etc.....

So if you agree with every single word that means you think Ibrahimovic is one of the best strikers in the world now?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

MIG wrote:I used to think Ibra was very overrated because every time I watched him play he did nothing but I had heard so many times how great he was.  I can't name specific games because I don't tend to remember every game I've ever watched.  I would imagine they would have been CL and Internationals though.
He does seem to be stepping up more and more in the big games these days and his scoring records and stats speak for themselves now.
He clearly is one of the best strikers in the world at the moment but as a player vs player comparison he is not on the same level as Ronaldo.

Agree with every word of that.

Sadly your opinion is totally invalid, MIG, unless you can name every exact game you've ever watched Zlatan in and quote the minute he was imperfect and what exactly he did wrong etc etc etc.....

So if you agree with every single word that means you think Ibrahimovic is one of the best strikers in the world now?

Yep. Stats speak for themselves. I just don't like him as a player and would take Ronaldo ahead of him 100 times out of 100, irrespective of 'position' (again, answering the OP). Berbatov had excellent stats as a United player, didn't like him either. But Zlat's got to be in the mix with RVP, Aguero, Ledwanowski, Suarez, Cavani and probably Falcao for a top5 in the world slot.

MIG is spot on and i have made the same comment before.

He did seem overrated back in the day(due to never quite managing his domestic form at CL level) but his record is only second to a few and the games i have watched him play in recent time he has been right up there.

Zlatan is quality- and in my top 5 players in the world.. along with messi, ronaldo, inesta and suraez

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

MIG wrote:I used to think Ibra was very overrated because every time I watched him play he did nothing but I had heard so many times how great he was.  I can't name specific games because I don't tend to remember every game I've ever watched.  I would imagine they would have been CL and Internationals though.
He does seem to be stepping up more and more in the big games these days and his scoring records and stats speak for themselves now.
He clearly is one of the best strikers in the world at the moment but as a player vs player comparison he is not on the same level as Ronaldo.

Agree with every word of that.

Sadly your opinion is totally invalid, MIG, unless you can name every exact game you've ever watched Zlatan in and quote the minute he was imperfect and what exactly he did wrong etc etc etc.....

So if you agree with every single word that means you think Ibrahimovic is one of the best strikers in the world now?

Yep.  Stats speak for themselves.  I just don't like him as a player and would take Ronaldo ahead of him 100 times out of 100, irrespective of 'position' (again, answering the OP).  Berbatov had excellent stats as a United player, didn't like him either.  But Zlat's got to be in the mix with RVP, Aguero, Ledwanowski, Suarez, Cavani and probably Falcao for a top5 in the world slot.

Glad you agree Ibrahimovic is one of the best strikers in the world.

Don't believe I ever said he wasn't. One of the best, not the best, and not better than Ronaldo by any definition.

As Truss would put it, guilty of playing the man not the ball here I think.......

TopHat24/7 wrote:Don't believe I ever said he wasn't. One of the best, not the best, and not better than Ronaldo by any definition.

As Truss would put it, guilty of playing the man not the ball here I think.......

You said he was overrated you said he was a glorified berbetov, you said he goes quiet in the big games I could quote the negative comments you made about him.

tophat wrote:Zlatan simply doesn't cut it for me.

tophat wrote: I've seen him disappoint too many times when it matters, on the really big stages in big games. Great players rise to the occasion

funny how you can't name single game you have seen him disappoint though, the only example you could think of was when he scoed 2 goals.

tophat wrote:
Also, for someone apparently so amazing, he does seem to get shifted around a lot.
Nobody seems that keen on keeping him around.

These are not comments by someone who thinks that ibrahimovic is one of the best players in the world, you are just backtracking now.

Either way I don't reallyc are because my aim was to prove ibrahimovic wa sone of the best strikers in the world and that has been proven and you even admitted just now you think he is one of the best so my aim is complete

just caught the Sweden game here in Ethiopia. Must say, Ronaldo put together an absolute masterclass at what he does best. Namely identifying the weakest link in a defence and then tearing it a new one. I know comparisons between CR7 and the fat Ronaldo are seen as sacrilegious, but his form this year, and in the last three months in particular has very few peers in the history of the game. As for Ibra-ca-da-bra, very rarely can you call a performance including two goals flat, but he really did look "unhappy" on the field.

Ronaldo > fat ronaldo

I tend to agree, Oakey.

Ronaldo is a great player and all, but I'd still rather have Fat Ronaldo. Or Original Ronaldo, to give him a kinder name.

Cristiano Ronaldo is a better athlete, but Fat Ronaldo was a better football player. He didn't stop scoring even after he lost some pace to injuries.

kingraf wrote:just caught the Sweden game here in Ethiopia. Must say, Ronaldo put together an absolute masterclass at what he does best. Namely identifying the weakest link in a defence and then tearing it a new one. I know comparisons between CR7 and the fat Ronaldo are seen as sacrilegious, but his form this year, and in the last three months in particular has very few peers in the history of the game. As for Ibra-ca-da-bra, very rarely can you call a performance including two goals flat, but he really did look "unhappy" on the field.

he always seems to be in a constant sulk. After he scored the first goal he looked like he didn't even care, but after he scored the 2nd goal ( a great free kick) he looked a lot happier.

sodhat wrote:Ronaldo is a great player and all, but I'd still rather have Fat Ronaldo. Or Original Ronaldo, to give him a kinder name.

Cristiano Ronaldo is a better athlete, but Fat Ronaldo was a better football player. He didn't stop scoring even after he lost some pace to injuries.

Tough choice, i would probably go with cristiano at club level but at international level i would go with old brazil, leading goal scorer at World cups with 14 goals is amazing.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Don't believe I ever said he wasn't. One of the best, not the best, and not better than Ronaldo by any definition.

As Truss would put it, guilty of playing the man not the ball here I think.......

You said he was overrated you said he was a glorified berbetov, you said he goes quiet in the big games I could quote the negative comments you made about him.

I still think you are over-rating him. He's up there but not without fault. I still think, based on what I have seen, he goes quiet in big games, though you've seen more than me and your opinion differs. And I still think he's a much better version of Berbatov - Berbs isn't a bad player. It's not like saying he's a better version Eric Djemba-Djemba. It's saying he has a similar style and characteristics (many of which I don't like) to a player who's won multiple league titles and golden boot awards, only better.

Yeh, real mean assessment.......

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

tophat wrote:Zlatan simply doesn't cut it for me.

tophat wrote: I've seen him disappoint too many times when it matters, on the really big stages in big games. Great players rise to the occasion

funny how you can't name  single game you have seen him disappoint though, the only example you could think of was when he scoed 2 goals.

tophat wrote:
Also, for someone apparently so amazing, he does seem to get shifted around a lot.
Nobody seems that keen on keeping him around.

These are not comments by someone who thinks that ibrahimovic is one of the best players in the world, you are just backtracking now.

Either way I don't reallyc are because my aim was to prove ibrahimovic wa sone of the best strikers in the world and that has been proven and you even admitted just now you think he is one of the best so my aim is complete

And?

He doesn't cut it for me, so what. He clearly gives you a rager, fair play, it's horses for courses.

Names 2, actually, and someone else has already pointed out that he was 'flat' despite the 2 goals in 1 of the games. And, as per MIG, all because I do not have a photographic memory of ever second of Zlat's playing career does not invalidate my opinion. That said, I'm still enjoying the wonderful irony of your position on that.

Fat Ronaldo top 15 best ever players (that i have witnessed- so i am discounting Pele, best, greevsy, charlton etc)

Slimey Ronaldo top 2 best ever players

My top 10

1. Messi
2. Slimey Ronaldo
3. Zidane
5. Maradona
6. Gaza
7. Cantona
8. Bergkamp
9. Henry
10.Zlatan
11. Ronaldinhio
12. Fat Ronadlo
13. Klinsman


Yes That was a quick list and i have probally missed out way to many. But those are the players that stiuck in the mind

I was just comparing some stats, and before his (double) knee injury at age 23, Ronaldo scored 130 in 155 league goals at club level.

C. Ronaldo at the same age had 87 in 189.

Obviously stats can tell stories different to reality, but I do think if Ronaldo doesn't get those serious knee injuries and remains the same player he was for PSV, Barca and Inter that we don't even have this debate today.

Ifs and buts bruv

Zlatan has hit his top form at a very old age

Zidane is for me the greatest player I've ever watched.

Nice list, mystir.

Here's mine.

maradona
messi
Zidane
Ronaldhinio
Slimey ronaldo
Rivaldo
fat Ronaldo
Platini
M laudrup
bergkamp
Romario
Van Basten
Batistuta
Zico
Gullit

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

tophat wrote:Zlatan simply doesn't cut it for me.

tophat wrote: I've seen him disappoint too many times when it matters, on the really big stages in big games. Great players rise to the occasion

funny how you can't name  single game you have seen him disappoint though, the only example you could think of was when he scoed 2 goals.

tophat wrote:
Also, for someone apparently so amazing, he does seem to get shifted around a lot.
Nobody seems that keen on keeping him around.

These are not comments by someone who thinks that ibrahimovic is one of the best players in the world, you are just backtracking now.

Either way I don't reallyc are because my aim was to prove ibrahimovic wa sone of the best strikers in the world and that has been proven and you even admitted just now you think he is one of the best so my aim is complete

And?

He doesn't cut it for me, so what.  He clearly gives you a rager, fair play, it's horses for courses.

Names 2, actually, and someone else has already pointed out that he was 'flat' despite the 2 goals in 1 of the games. And, as per MIG, all because I do not have a photographic memory of ever second of Zlat's playing career does not invalidate my opinion.  That said, I'm still enjoying the wonderful irony of your position on that.

You just said he was one of the best players in the world in a previous post, make your mind up.

Rivaldo? Really? Blimey.

Zidane
Ronaldo
Messi
C. Ronaldo
Iniesta

My undisputed top 5 of the players I've seen. After that it gets into a real much of a muchness (not in a "they're all average" way, just they aren't clearly better than their peers).

Marky wrote:Rivaldo? Really? Blimey.

You never saw him play?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

tophat wrote:Zlatan simply doesn't cut it for me.

tophat wrote: I've seen him disappoint too many times when it matters, on the really big stages in big games. Great players rise to the occasion

funny how you can't name  single game you have seen him disappoint though, the only example you could think of was when he scoed 2 goals.

tophat wrote:
Also, for someone apparently so amazing, he does seem to get shifted around a lot.
Nobody seems that keen on keeping him around.

These are not comments by someone who thinks that ibrahimovic is one of the best players in the world, you are just backtracking now.

Either way I don't reallyc are because my aim was to prove ibrahimovic wa sone of the best strikers in the world and that has been proven and you even admitted just now you think he is one of the best so my aim is complete

And?

He doesn't cut it for me, so what.  He clearly gives you a rager, fair play, it's horses for courses.

Names 2, actually, and someone else has already pointed out that he was 'flat' despite the 2 goals in 1 of the games. And, as per MIG, all because I do not have a photographic memory of ever second of Zlat's playing career does not invalidate my opinion.  That said, I'm still enjoying the wonderful irony of your position on that.

If you are arguing a point at least have some evidence to back up your point. I posted about 20 different big teams ibrahimovic has scored against in some very important fixtures and posted his goal scoring record at every club, champions league and international games.

So far you have said ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games (even though he doesn't as the evidence i posted of the teams he scored against shows) and you have faied to name any games he has gone quiet in. The only game you mentioned was a game he scored 2 goals in which is just a WUM comment.

If you are going to argue for hours that ibrahimovic goes quiet in the big games post some evidence. The fact you haven't posted any evidence shows you can't prove anything.

(for the record there will be games Ibrahimovic has been quiet in, it is normal just like Van persie or Messi or Neymar or Xavi have been quiet in some big games, the fact he has been impressive and scored in 20 big games I posted and more shows his quality).

sodhat wrote:Zidane
Ronaldo
Messi
C. Ronaldo
Iniesta

My undisputed top 5 of the players I've seen. After that it gets into a real much of a muchness (not in a "they're all average" way, just they aren't clearly better than their peers).

I would put Ronaldinhio above Iniesta but apart from that I agree with the list.

Iniesta is probably the only footballer in the world I get goosebumps watching. Like watching Federer try football....

Iniesta can do anything on a football field. He can playmake, pass, dribble, shoot. He can play winger, central midfield or false nine. It's sad that he doesn't get the credit of a Balon D'or because he truly should have.

I completely agree Sodhat (your name is a mission to get right with predictive text, by the way). It's a great pity that Iniesta hasn't been properly awarded for his skill. On the other hand, it must need sais that I feel Messi got a little fortunate with his first two Ballon d'Ors. Especially his second one in 2010, given that the Ballon generally goes to the best player in the world Cuomo in a WC year, I thought he got very lucky to win that.

I forget inesta in that list- but have mentioned him in my top 5 at present.

Inesta is in my overall top 15 for sure

the problem is flair players or goal scorers will always win the ballon dor, think the only exception is in 2006 when the defender cannavaro won it.

Stella wrote:

Marky wrote:Rivaldo? Really? Blimey.

You never saw him play?

I thought I had. But considering you put him above, and I quote;

fat Ronaldo
Platini
M laudrup
bergkamp
Romario
Van Basten
Batistuta
Zico
Gullit

I must have been watching a different Rivaldo!

Don't get me wrong, he was great for a short period of time, but I'm assuming consistency isn't one of your criteria.

Marky wrote:

Stella wrote:

Marky wrote:Rivaldo? Really? Blimey.

You never saw him play?

I thought I had. But considering you put him above, and I quote;

fat Ronaldo
Platini
M laudrup
bergkamp
Romario
Van Basten
Batistuta
Zico
Gullit

I must have been watching a different Rivaldo!

Don't get me wrong, he was great for a short period of time, but I'm assuming consistency isn't one of your criteria.

He was great for about 4-5 years, same as ronaldinhio I suppose? Loved watching him.

I'd have said 1 season from Rivaldo TBH. And just to put it into perspective, Messi's Ballon d'Or wins have Ronaldo in 2nd. Rivaldo's Ballon d'Or had Beckham in 2nd.

I can only remember one world class performance from Rivaldo and that was his hat-trick for Barca to get them Champions League football on the final day of the season.

Marky wrote:I'd have said 1 season from Rivaldo TBH. And just to put it into perspective, Messi's Ballon d'Or wins have Ronaldo in 2nd. Rivaldo's Ballon d'Or had Beckham in 2nd.

I can only remember one world class performance from Rivaldo and that was his hat-trick for Barca to get them Champions League football on the final day of the season.

He had two good world cups in 98 & 2002, and was with Zidane the best player in the world for a period of time. Remember Figo, Ronaldo, Zidane, Batistuta were around in that period. becks came 2nd because he was becks.