New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

I have heard it is:

6 French
6 English
7 Pro12 (1 guaranteed from each country, 3 on league position)
1 play-off (7th English and 7th French team)

Trying to find out is correct as we speak

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

stub wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I have always said in this over-long 18-month debate that the PRL/LNR were playing hard ball.

And for years I've been arguing that the PRL are incapable of seeing beyond the current moment. They are and always have been unfit for purpose.

But the Franglos will get their way because they hold all the aces sadly.

The Celtalians will now have to bend over, drop their keks and smile as they are royally rogered. Ouch that must smart.

It's the rich wot gets the pleasure...

I wouldn't be so sure.  The PRL have backed themselves into a corner with this "Join our new tournament or nothing approach."  They could have had all their demands in the HC, but this deal with BT has made negotiation impossible.  Evidenced by the fact that when the Celts agree to a reduction of 10 teams to 7 its still not enough.  

The French Union have approved the above settlement, as have the IRFU on behalf of the Irish provinces.  The PRL could find that they have sold BT a second Anglo-Welsh cup.

Have the French Union approved something that the RFU haven't? Genuine question. (In the context of this post)

From what I can surmise the RFU have backed the above proposals as well.  To be honest I'm starting to think that McCafferty has really dug himself a hole.  He has sold BT the rights to a competition that may well never exist.  If he can't pull off the Rugby Champions Cup now he could find himself in quite a bit of trouble.

Just to clarify...

Representatives from the Rugby Football Union, French Rugby Federation, Scottish Rugby Union, Welsh Rugby Union, Irish Rugby Union and Italian Rugby Federation were all present in Dublin.

That means all Unions have agreed to the new proposals for the Heineken Cup.  McCafferty is still insisting that there will be no HC, there will be the RCC instead.  But without a single union backing it how will this materialize?  I have no doubt that the IRB will also side with the Unions given that they are a united front.

So if this competition was not run under the auspices of the ERC everyone could move forward? Does it all come down to governance as numerous posters have said?[/quote]

Biltong wrote:TJ, it depends which people said it. You can disclaim the statement as false or potentially false if it originated in totality from outside Rabo supporters, but it hasn't.

I very much doubt any ~Rabo team follower would say it because it simply is not true in any shape or form. Biltong - you know much more about SA rugby than I do - I know much more about Rabo rugby than you do. Rabo teams do not rotate or rest players any more than any other team.

It doesn't have to be ERC run - but it does have to be union run.

Biltong,
What is a nice guy like you doing getting caught up in a fetid, sordid mess like this?
Run.
Flee whilst you still have a chance.
Run for your life.
Run Luke, run.

If all the unions agree a competition then the IRB will back it and a HEC there will be.

It would surely mean therefore that none of the unions will back this Franglo cup, and so therefore neither will the IRB.

If the RFU and the FFR have to invent some teams to take part or offer it to lower league teams then so be it. How long will the Franglo cup last when it is unsanctioned and all the players are likely to be barred from International rugby.

The Franglo cup is a dead duck. They may have had some good points and some of those have been taken on board but if they think the PRL and LNR are going to run European rugby then someone needs to take an anti delusional pill.

doctornickolas wrote:If all the unions agree a competition then the IRB will back it and a HEC there will be.

It would surely mean therefore that none of the unions will back this Franglo cup, and so therefore neither will the IRB.

If the RFU and the FFR have to invent some teams to take part or offer it to lower league teams then so be it. How long will the Franglo cup last when it is unsanctioned and all the players are likely to be barred from International rugby.

The Franglo cup is a dead duck. They may have had some good points and some of those have been taken on board but if they think the PRL and LNR are going to run European rugby then someone needs to take an anti delusional pill.

I'm not sure that it was ever about that Dr Nick. More likely negotiating tactics the whole time. Although events now seem to have taken an interesting turn.

doctor_grey wrote:Biltong,
What is a nice guy like you doing getting caught up in a fetid, sordid mess like this?
Run.
Flee whilst you still have a chance.
Run for your life.
Run Luke, run.

You make a good point doc  but he has to say it like he sees it!

Mark said in his statement that the english french and welsh are in. I wonder if that is signed or verbal.

You would have to feel that the regions will follow the union or cease to exist. The LNR who knows.
The PRL have come out and said yes thanks for giving us what we want but we want control too so no thanks.

Standulstermen wrote:Fair point on derbies attracting viewers but not on the quality of rugby they produce. If anything it produces cagier rugby I think. I don't know the demographics of SA biltong do I defer to you on that one. I would have thought decent sponsorship would be easier drew to a 4 nation competition/market as opposed to a single nation comp.

Sponsorship unfortunately is seperate from the main revenue stream. Case in point. SARU on an annual basis earns around 70 million Dollars, that includes around 9 million Dollars for The six team Currie Cup. The ARU earns about 10 million dollars more than SARU as their sponsorship revenue is theirs and nit spread amongst the three partners.

The majority of television revenue comes from SA, yet we share that. The reason why is we don't get much in way of sponsorship in comparison to Australia.

On top of that the percenatge of revenue we pay oir players is lower than what Australia pay their players, because we fund the development of Currie Cup Premier division, Currie Cup first division, an equevalent of U19 and U21 Currie Cup, plus Vodacom Cup, a top 20 Club championship and Varsity Cup in two divisions, something the ARU doesn't.

The only way we will increase income is to increase our viewership and for that to happen we need to expand further development in grass roots and club level, rather than focus on Super Rugby..

doctor_grey wrote:Biltong,
What is a nice guy like you doing getting caught up in a fetid, sordid mess like this?
Run.
Flee whilst you still have a chance.
Run for your life.
Run Luke, run.

 

Evening Doc. I wasn't going to get involved, but many of these issues are evident in our situation and I needed to vent a little on these issues. Mostly from a SA perspective.

Evening, Biltong.
So you got sucked in, saw how the bizarre reality of northern Rugby had parallels with yours, and adopted them!  You vented with aplomb, but still without the standard of antagonistic flair to which this thread aspires.  The worst part, of course, is your other southern friends are snickering at all of us in the background.  

In all seriousness, I didn't realise how much Rugby in SA is subsidised or funded by SARU and its revenue streams.  No wonder you need to go after stronger revenue opportunities.  I keep thinking about growing rugby - seems like you are trying to keep up.  This is the type of imbalance we need to correct on a global basis.

IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things. The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC. I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

doctor_grey wrote:Evening, Biltong.
So you got sucked in, saw how the bizarre reality of northern Rugby had parallels with yours, and adopted them!  You vented with aplomb, but still without the standard of antagonistic flair to which this thread aspires.  The worst part, of course, is your other southern friends are snickering at all of us in the background.  

In all seriousness, I didn't realise how much Rugby in SA is subsidised or funded by SARU and its revenue streams.  No wonder you need to go after stronger revenue opportunities.  I keep thinking about growing rugby - seems like you are trying to keep up.  This is the type of imbalance we need to correct on a global basis.

Yeah Doc, unfortunately sport in SA is totallyself funded. There are no sporting grants from government, no assitance what so ever.

Due to our economy and various affirmative measures in the private sector coupled with a weak rand, the sponsorships are weak.

Thus it is vital that SARU administers our rugby with calm and intelligent heads.

If you think rugby has it bad, you should see the other sporting codes, on a hiding to nothing.

Topulouse have also said ( more or less) tht they will go with the flow and want to play all sides. i suspect Toulon is actually just bluster.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things.  The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

Are there other clubs than Toulon Dodger? What if an English club like, say, Leicester wanted to break ranks? That would be interesting...

AD, true but how much is a HEC without the PRL worth to SKY?

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

I wouldn't be convinced by LNR, but perhaps there is some truth in the suggestion that PRL may be in a bind due to the BT contract?

stub wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things.  The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

Are there other clubs than Toulon Dodger? What if an English club like, say, Leicester wanted to break ranks? That would be interesting...

I don't know of any others.  But the LNR doesn't look like a united front to me.  With their Union saying they are committed to the ERC and their biggest club saying they aren't interested in the RCC.  Its interesting as one wealthy owner - Racing's Jackie Lorenzetti of the LNR is backing the RCC while another - Marcel Boudjellal of Toulon is backing the ERC.  It gives the impression that the LNR are not united.  It remains to be seen what each of the other 12 Top14 clubs will do individually, but if even a few of them aren't going with the LNR then there will still be French teams in the HC.

It would certainly be very interesting if one of the top English clubs broke ranks with the PRL - not that there is any suggestion of that yet.

Broadlandboy - The HC without the PRL is still worth more to Sky than a new tournament hosted by their biggest competitor BT.

I agree that LNR have more room for maneuver however if the LNR is one club one vote could Toulon be excluded from the TOP14 if LNR goes ahead with its minimum French players in the squad?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things.  The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

Oh for goodness sake, AD,
The Rabo duck has been shot. It hasn't been killed but it is plummeting to the ground.

The pity is that Elmer PRL Fudd fired the mortal shot.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/03/daffy_duck_elmer_fudd.jpg

Or did he?

broadlandboy wrote:I agree that LNR have more room for maneuver however if the LNR is one club one vote could Toulon be excluded from the TOP14 if LNR goes ahead with its minimum French players in the squad?

I can't see it. Excluding the current European champions and wealthiest club in France as a result of new rules? Doesn't seem very likely. Do the LNR really have the power to do that anyway??

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things.  The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

Oh for goodness sake, AD,
The Rabo duck has been shot. It hasn't been killed but it is plummeting to the ground.

The pity is that Elmer PRL Fudd fired the mortal shot.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/03/daffy_duck_elmer_fudd.jpg

Or did he?

Ahm....  

Toulon wont be excluded. They will comply or be fined.
LNR is one voice one vote, no team can break rank as such.
Are people really considering that 2 european competitions will run side by side? Like in boxing?!

broadlandboy wrote:I agree that LNR have more room for maneuver however if the LNR is one club one vote could Toulon be excluded from the TOP14 if LNR goes ahead with its minimum French players in the squad?

Surely it will be points deducted. I doubt the points they would take off Toulon would rule them out of the top six so they wouldn't care.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

stub wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things.  The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

Are there other clubs than Toulon Dodger? What if an English club like, say, Leicester wanted to break ranks? That would be interesting...

I don't know of any others.  But the LNR doesn't look like a united front to me.  With their Union saying they are committed to the ERC and their biggest club saying they aren't interested in the RCC.  Its interesting as one wealthy owner - Racing's Jackie Lorenzetti of the LNR is backing the RCC while another - Marcel Boudjellal of Toulon is backing the ERC.  It gives the impression that the LNR are not united.  It remains to be seen what each of the other 12 Top14 clubs will do individually, but if even a few of them aren't going with the LNR then there will still be French teams in the HC.

It would certainly be very interesting if one of the top English clubs broke ranks with the PRL - not that there is any suggestion of that yet.

Broadlandboy - The HC without the PRL is still worth more to Sky than a new tournament hosted by their biggest competitor BT.

Thanks AD - I can see your point but this doesn't necessarily leave the PRL by themselves. I can see that it makes the PRL/LNR/RRW position a little weaker however. I guess though that we don't necessarily know that the Scots/Italian position entirely either though? From what I read from the Irish posters on here there it seems there is no doubt that there will only be one position from them?

Pity the ERC didnt pull their fingers out 18 months ago when LNR/PRL first gave notice, we could probably avoided most of this. Just goes to show that ERC is not fit for purpose

whocares wrote:Toulon wont be excluded. They will comply or be fined.
LNR is one voice one vote, no team can break rank as such.
Are people really considering that 2 european competitions will run side by side? Like in boxing?!

If there is no agreement then the RCC is dead unless the PRL want to try a total breakaway. Without all the unions on side the IRB will not condone it - that means no refs unless some are pursuaded to join a breakaway

I think agreement willbe made now - the rest have gone so far that the PRL have no case not to compromise. However they still could play hardball and I suspect the unions will go no further.

broadlandboy wrote:Pity the ERC didnt pull their fingers out 18 months ago when LNR/PRL first gave notice, we could probably avoided most of this. Just goes to show that ERC is not fit for purpose

Or - its a pity the PRL were not so greedy - we could have avoided all this

One of three options as far as I can see:

1) BT have PRL by the short and curlies on penalty clauses
2) Behind closed doors there is an agreement between RFU and PRL
3) PRL/LNR are playing the 'there is no European cup without us' card to the extreme

My bet is option 2 - Without at least some union support PRL/LNR have no competition unless they break from the IRB, which isn't going to happen, so they must have some union backing somewhere...............Option 3 just isn't an option because they must know that if unions hold and all say no, the IRB say no. As for Option 1, can't see it, these are hardened businessmen, putting a deal together that left their position exposed on something they did not have control over?

whocares wrote:Toulon wont be excluded. They will comply or be fined.
LNR is one voice one vote, no team can break rank as such.
Are people really considering that 2 european competitions will run side by side? Like in boxing?!

Well...if it's two deals with two Broadcasters for two European contests with the same teams in both contests????  ..that might be even better than anything anyone has even considered before!!

Franglowelsh European cup and  ERC renewed normal HEC .... Sky plus BT... twice as much money for everyone and room for all!  And a final of finals between the winners of both contests.  If only one side wins both contests then that's a Grandslam....

Wonderful.

It was ERC unwillingness to enter talks that pushed LNR/PRL into giving notice. The PRL/BTS deal came about after LNR/PRL had given notice

Well stub, I'm going on the fact that all 6 Unions have signed upto the HC. Half of those Unions have bodies representing their clubs (PRL,LNR and RRW) who are committed to a new tournament. The IRFU represent the provinces so based on that I am assuming at this stage that the only position from the Irish is that we are playing in the ERC's HC - same with the Scottish and Italians.

The other 3 nations its harder to say. RRW have no contract at the end of this season, so may find it difficult to go against their union who have committed to the HC. The PRL seem thus far a united front in favour of the RCC. The LNR...and here is where I disagree with whocares....are not a united front. I cannot see how they could be construed as united when Marcel Boudjellal openly accuses the LNR of being racist and says he will have nothing to do with their new tournament. That is not one voice, even if there is only one dissenting voice.

A deal they couldn't make legally...so let's call it a proposal.

broadlandboy wrote:It was ERC unwillingness to enter talks that pushed LNR/PRL into giving notice. The PRL/BTS deal came about after LNR/PRL had given notice

Yeah - and the greedy intransigent PRL have refused to negotiate meaningfully at all. here offered almost everything they want on a plate - refused. No one comes out of thei well tbut he PRL are the main ones to blame - don't be fooled.

I am not convinced there is a binding deal with BT

We are not involved in the conversations. We have deliberately wanted to step back. We have said what we would like, we have set out the investment we are prepared to make and we hope we will be able to be involved. I really hope they grab this opportunity.

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/200791.html

If this had been offered 18 months ago would the LNR/PRL(you seem to keep forgetting that LNR gave notice first) have given notice. After giving notice the LNR/PRL were under no obligation to ERC after 2014

Marcel Boudjellal to me is just posturing.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & LNR have both said that they will not participate in an ERC run comp even if no other comp avaible

Then the PRL will be without a competition by the looks of things.  The LNR may well be as well, but there are signs that some French clubs - including the most wealthy - HC champions Toulon will not go with the LNR and will stick with the ERC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the PRL find themselves on their own here to be honest.

Oh for goodness sake, AD,
The Rabo duck has been shot. It hasn't been killed but it is plummeting to the ground.

The pity is that Elmer PRL Fudd fired the mortal shot.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/03/daffy_duck_elmer_fudd.jpg

Or did he?

I don't know if anyone or their duck has been shot. But the bevy of reports in the media all mentioning agreements on parts of the equation suggests to me that this is at or near the end game. And hopefully so.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Well stub, I'm going on the fact that all 6 Unions have signed upto the HC.  Half of those Unions have bodies representing their clubs (PRL,LNR and RRW) who are committed to a new tournament.  The IRFU represent the provinces so based on that I am assuming at this stage that the only position from the Irish is that we are playing in the ERC's HC - same with the Scottish and Italians.

The other 3 nations its harder to say.  RRW have no contract at the end of this season, so may find it difficult to go against their union who have committed to the HC.   The PRL seem thus far a united front in favour of the RCC.  The LNR...and here is where I disagree with whocares....are not a united front.  I cannot see how they could be construed as united when Marcel Boudjellal openly accuses the LNR of being racist and says he will have nothing to do with their new tournament.  That is not one voice, even if there is only one dissenting voice.

Again, thanks for your clear explanation. I'm looking forward to seeing what actually transpires. I feel there may be a couple of twists and turns yet but to me it looks very hopeful now that we'll have something close to a decent HC type competition with everyone involved.

I very much doubt the LNR/PRl would have taken this at any time. As I have said all along they want control of european rugby. anything else is a smokescreen this is now laid bare.

stub wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Well stub, I'm going on the fact that all 6 Unions have signed upto the HC.  Half of those Unions have bodies representing their clubs (PRL,LNR and RRW) who are committed to a new tournament.  The IRFU represent the provinces so based on that I am assuming at this stage that the only position from the Irish is that we are playing in the ERC's HC - same with the Scottish and Italians.

The other 3 nations its harder to say.  RRW have no contract at the end of this season, so may find it difficult to go against their union who have committed to the HC.   The PRL seem thus far a united front in favour of the RCC.  The LNR...and here is where I disagree with whocares....are not a united front.  I cannot see how they could be construed as united when Marcel Boudjellal openly accuses the LNR of being racist and says he will have nothing to do with their new tournament.  That is not one voice, even if there is only one dissenting voice.

Again, thanks for your clear explanation. I'm looking forward to seeing what actually transpires. I feel there may be a couple of twists and turns yet but to me it looks very hopeful now that we'll have something close to a decent HC type competition with everyone involved.

The only way that can happen now is if the Unions consent to the RCC. Under the terms negotiated at the ERC meeting today. As bizarre as that sounds.

AD agreed

TJ wrote:I am not convinced there is a binding deal with BT

We are not involved in the conversations. We have deliberately wanted to step back. We have said what we would like, we have set out the investment we are prepared to make and we hope we will be able to be involved. I really hope they grab this opportunity.

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/200791.html

PRL/LNR may want to take this all the way:

BT:

"The English-French tournament we will support, if it goes ahead, and we very much hope that if it does, then others [from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy] will then join.

"We have a long-term interest in rugby and that interest is not going to go away. If we get the opportunity to broadcast European rugby we will grasp it with both hands."

The question remains; can they? without the competition being sanctioned by their respective Unions who have just agreed new terms amongst themselves?

Or the PRL actually compromise a little bit.

There is no way on earth the unions are going to agree to club control. End the ERC - yes and that allows the PRL to save face but it must remain union controlled watever the new umbrella body is called.

It's a fair point broadland but if the unions put the foot down there is no contest. PRL have now refused a deal which is a massive compromise from the unions (and not from the clubs), and have not engaged in any mediation process. If you take that to the courts you are not doing so from a position of strength I don't think.

Add to the fact that no court is going to want to overrule any sports governing body and the PRL could be in a tricky enough spot. I won't suggest they are in a corner because they still hold the two biggest markets in the deal. As with the entirety of this debate, it will ultimately come down to where the rfu/FFR draw the line

TJ wrote:I very much doubt the LNR/PRl would have taken this at any time.  As I have said all along they want control of european rugby.  anything else is a smokescreen  this is now laid bare.

http://weirdgalaxy.com/gallery/elmerfudd.jpg

Brilliant pic portnoy

TJ wrote:Or the PRL actually compromise a little bit.

There is no way on earth the unions are going to agree to club control.  End the ERC - yes and that allows the PRL to save face but it must remain union controlled watever the new umbrella body is called.

But then the Unions haven't yet actually agreed on the governance of the competition. That appears open to negotiation. My concern is how far they would be prepared to concede. If not handing over complete control then perhaps more control to PRL/LNR than previously? Neither would be good.

Standulstermen wrote:It's a fair point broadland but if the unions put the foot down there is no contest. PRL have now refused a deal which is a massive compromise from the unions (and not from the clubs), and have not engaged in any mediation process. If you take that to the courts you are not doing so from a position of strength I don't think.

Add to the fact that no court is going to want to overrule any sports governing body and the PRL could be in a tricky enough spot. I won't suggest they are in a corner because they still hold the two biggest markets in the deal. As with the entirety of this debate, it will ultimately come down to where the rfu/FFR draw the line

almost. if the unions put the foot down there will be no contest at all. and the celtic unions will lose out most of all. a bad deal is better than no deal at all.