New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

I have heard it is:

6 French
6 English
7 Pro12 (1 guaranteed from each country, 3 on league position)
1 play-off (7th English and 7th French team)

Trying to find out is correct as we speak

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Well what point are you trying to make then?

Its sky that has been doing this for so many years . NOT BT.

Why do so many posters think its ok for SKY but not others??

Secondly again. That is not Sky or BTS fault anyway. There are businesses. Again its the sporting bodies fault.

Or from your POV its the Governments fault for allowing broadcasters to bid for exclusivity.

Which is something I dont think anyone should get into. Because restricting business in this way could cause so many knock ons.

I stated some time ago on this thread that I think SKY overcharges for its sports service. I don't know who the many posters are, but I'm not one of them.

I didn't say it was the Governments fault. It is what it is. You don't think allowing the big players to bid for exclusive rights restricts business?  

It's been fun, but I've chatted enough. Work to be done. Laters.

tbh its a very tough one, because where do we draw the line- Sports deals only?, what about news paper exclusives, tv exclusives, film/game publisher exclusives?

How would that stick without applying this law to every thing?

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:BT is sponsoring many Rabbo teams dude?

Why are you looking at this with on one eye?

BT is aligning itself with very much a competitor European league that has not got the best interests of Pro12 or participating Nations at heart.
You are looking at this with one eye.

The pro12 needs top sort it self out... The rest of the world isnt a charity.. Its just business and if the pro 12 cant sort it self out then you have to look at the pro12 itself

mystiroakey wrote:

The ERC should never have signed a SKY deal that included all ERC teams after the PRL had seeked out BT's deal.

That feicked it up just as much.

Purely evidence that I am right mystir.  No matter what I say - there is always a reason why PRL/BT alliance is the best for all in Europe according to you.

It ain't..... but I understand why you would think so, as it refers back to Nathan's point.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

The ERC should never have signed a SKY deal that included all ERC teams after the PRL had seeked out BT's deal.

That feicked it up just as much.

Purely evidence that I am right mystir.  No matter what I say - there is always a reason why PRL/BT alliance is the best for all in Europe according to you.

It ain't..... but I understand why you would think so, as it refers back to Nathan's point.

firtsly i said "that feicked it up as much"

saying that netheir decison was good. So try and comprehend the points made before you cast aspersions



I understand why you cant see past this - and yes that refers back to Nathan's point. You see the prl/bt/england as one and the same.. Its all evil to you.

The reason why the prl and nrl did this was to get some say in regards to an unfair format. It worked. However both tv company's have seriously muddied the waters. I cant however blame either for that- only ALL the unions and TEAMS involved.

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:BT is sponsoring many Rabbo teams dude?

Why are you looking at this with on one eye?

BT is aligning itself with very much a competitor European league that has not got the best interests of Pro12 or participating Nations at heart.
You are looking at this with one eye.

The pro12 needs top sort it self out... The rest of the world isnt a charity.. Its just business and if the pro 12 cant sort it self out then you have to look at the pro12 itself

What the hell does that mean?  

Who is looking to be sorted out by PRL?  Five of the last eight HC winners were from the Pro12.
Who asked for the assistance of another League to 'help' us out and 'sort' us out structurally?  

AP is the ones moaning about the pressures on them.  If it's not relegation sides moaning about having to have infrastructures standards it can't very well afford in order to get into it in the first place, then it's moaning about salary caps that the French don't have and they have to deal with.  And then of course on to Pro12 - the devil - that steals places in European competition and doesn't allow real 'Quality' sides from AP in instead....  There's always a moan from our more 'successful' neighbours.


Don't be so arrogant, mystir.  We don't need your help.  And certainly we don't need the help of PRL and it's kindly guidance.

mystiroakey wrote:

The reason why the prl and nrl did this was to get some say in regards to an unfair format. It worked. However both tv company's have seriously muddied the waters. I cant however blame either for that- only ALL the unions and TEAMS involved.

PRL used money that wasn't theirs to do so. And BT was the company who gave the promisory note to do so. We go round in circles.

PRL knows what is best for English rugby - good luck to them. They don't know what is best for European rugby.
We know what is best for Pro12
...and I know what's best for IRFU.

Fly- when i come on here sticking up for BT, why do you think i am also sticking up for the PRL?

I am not in the slightest bit. I got into the conversation from purely a business and trade perspective. I blame the PRL and the ERC and all the unions involved for creating this mess in the first place.

If there wasn't this mess to deal with BT would have been a godsend- because we could have had SKY and BT going into a bidding war for the ERC.

Hopefully that will be the case in the future, but we need to sort this mess out first(but we need to stop blaming BT)

I have no idea why the relation between Bt and prl are being made. Prl was selling a product (rightly or wrongly) and Bt bought it. End of.

Exactly Nathan

nathan wrote:I have no idea why the relation between Bt and prl are being made. Prl was selling a product dream (rightly or wrongly) and Bt bought it. End of.

Fixed that for you, nathan - no charge on this occasion, cos its a Tuesday

mystiroakey wrote:Fly- when i come on here sticking up for BT, why do you think i am also sticking up for the PRL?

I am not in the slightest bit. I got into the conversation from purely a business and trade perspective. I blame the PRL and the ERC and all the unions involved for creating this mess in the first place.

You might think it but you don't often say it. It's refreshing to hear you say it.

Regardless as, its business. Prl were selling something and Bt bought it. To somehow suggest Bt got into bed with them to conspire against the rabo is just fantasy

That's the problem fly, i think you only saw the bit in bold!

nathan wrote:I have no idea why the relation between Bt and prl are being made. Prl was selling a product (rightly or wrongly) and Bt bought it. End of.

What product are they selling?

nathan wrote:That's the problem fly, i think you only saw the bit in bold!

I saw all of it...I'm very familiar with seeing the other bits that aren't highlighted. Mystir and most English people are fond of the unhighlighted bit and I highlighted the 'highlighted' bit ---- to let him know he doesn't say so very often.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Fly- when i come on here sticking up for BT, why do you think i am also sticking up for the PRL?

I am not in the slightest bit. I got into the conversation from purely a business and trade perspective. I blame the PRL and the ERC and all the unions involved for creating this mess in the first place.

You might think it but you don't often say it.  It's refreshing to hear you say it.  

As I have partially blamed the PRL. Its only fair that you also blame others.

I am waiting

PS: BT doesn't count

nathan wrote:Regardless as, its business. Prl were selling something and Bt bought it. To somehow suggest Bt got into bed with them to conspire against the rabo is just fantasy

Again...what were PRL selling?

Why did the PRL sell rights to a competition that didn't exist? Thats what Id like to know

Just as an intresting change of subject, instead of the same old same old, most fans agree that th enew qualification will help improve the pro 12, (tbh I don't think it would make much difference) lets look at ways to improve the jeff.

Firstly I would do away with the P-shares, A-shares and B-shares, its grossly unfair that a team in the Championship can be getting a lot more money that a team promoted to the Jeff, even if in the jeff for a number of years there could be teams in the Championship earning more because of their shares.

nathan wrote:Regardless as, its business. Prl were selling something and Bt bought it. To somehow suggest Bt got into bed with them to conspire against the rabo is just fantasy

I'd agree wholeheartedly, nathan, as demonstrated by their sponsorship of Glasgow and Embra - BT are engaged in a commerical sports viewing war with Sky, and European rugby is just another facet of that to them, I suspect

Kingshu wrote:Just as an intresting change of subject, instead of the same old same old, most fans agree that th enew qualification will help improve the pro 12, (tbh I don't think it would make much difference) lets look at ways to improve the jeff.

Firstly I would do away with the P-shares, A-shares and B-shares, its grossly unfair that a team in the Championship can be getting a lot more money that a team promoted to the Jeff, even if in the jeff for a number of years there could be teams in the Championship earning more because of their shares.

I'd wholeheartedly endorse that plan, Kingshu - Exe are in their 4th year in the premiership and still not on an even footing when it comes to financial income from the central pot - complete farce

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Fly- when i come on here sticking up for BT, why do you think i am also sticking up for the PRL?

I am not in the slightest bit. I got into the conversation from purely a business and trade perspective. I blame the PRL and the ERC and all the unions involved for creating this mess in the first place.

You might think it but you don't often say it.  It's refreshing to hear you say it.  

As I have partially blamed the PRL. Its only fair that you also blame others.

I am waiting

PS: BT doesn't count

I was going to add to nathan that I really don't see logic in blaming everyone.  

I blame PRL
I blame BT for getting into bed with them
I blame LNR for having the best deal in Europe - biggest teams, most money, best players, no salary caps of worth - and still thinking they are hard done by.  Everybody say "Ahh"
I blame my Union for agreeing to the joint ERC statement about the changes to the competition
I blame all of them ERC/PRL/LNR/Journalists leaking/All Unions for allowing the image of a devious, teeth gritting rugby code to be shown around the world.  Meetings called - nobody turning up - people not being invited - people getting pizzed because they haven't been invited - people saying in public that real compromises are worthless - noise - anger - smart comments - surly opinions etc
I blame us for keeping all that going here
I blame ERC for not seeing if there were other offers out there (strictly financial) instead of just the one from SKY
I blame ERC for not inviting BT to talks (if such an invitation wasn't made - does anyone know the truth on that one?) - for talks alone - without PRL by its side.

I don't blame PRL for looking out for their Exclusive Interests.
I don't blame the Welsh Regions for saying where they want to play.
I don't blame BT for wanting to buy the HC TV rights
I don't blame the ERC for wanting to keep privately owned clubs away from casting vote control over Rugby Union in Europe

I've been consistent in all that.  My ultimate concern - my only concern is the continued growth of Irish rugby.  Any rules, stipulations, conditions, demands etc that I personally see as threatening that - especially from outside sources - then I'll be very vocal in saying what I think about it.  And make no apologies for doing so.  
Pro12 wasn't the league trying to clip the wings of AP in a European framework.  PRL were trying to do it to Pro12.
You say business is business.  So be it - that opinion is a battle line if it threatens rugby in my Nation.

There you go, that's the sum total of my opinions on this topic in synopsis form. ("Why the F**K couldn't you have given that to us in the first place, fly - you mouthy basteraud!")

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Just as an intresting change of subject, instead of the same old same old, most fans agree that th enew qualification will help improve the pro 12, (tbh I don't think it would make much difference) lets look at ways to improve the jeff.

Firstly I would do away with the P-shares, A-shares and B-shares, its grossly unfair that a team in the Championship can be getting a lot more money that a team promoted to the Jeff, even if in the jeff for a number of years there could be teams in the Championship earning more because of their shares.

I'd wholeheartedly endorse that plan, Kingshu - Exe are in their 4th year in the premiership and still not on an even footing when it comes to financial income from the central pot - complete farce

Would I be right in think that last year, newcastle would have got more than Exe?

Exe were lucky that they were able to buy Leeds P-shares, otherwise they would never have been on an even footing, even after 5 years in the Prem.

If they are going to keep the shares the way they are they may as well ring fence the Prem, I'd either ring fence or do away with the shares, no half measures.

Kingshu wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Just as an intresting change of subject, instead of the same old same old, most fans agree that th enew qualification will help improve the pro 12, (tbh I don't think it would make much difference) lets look at ways to improve the jeff.

Firstly I would do away with the P-shares, A-shares and B-shares, its grossly unfair that a team in the Championship can be getting a lot more money that a team promoted to the Jeff, even if in the jeff for a number of years there could be teams in the Championship earning more because of their shares.

I'd wholeheartedly endorse that plan, Kingshu - Exe are in their 4th year in the premiership and still not on an even footing when it comes to financial income from the central pot - complete farce

Would I be right in think that last year, newcastle would have got more than Exe?

Exe were lucky that they were able to buy Leeds P-shares, otherwise they would never have been on an even footing, even after 5 years in the Prem.

If they are going to keep the shares the way they are they may as well ring fence the Prem, I'd either ring fence or do away with the shares, no half measures.

I couldn't confirm your first point, Kingshu, sorry, just don't know.  We were lucky that we were able to buy Leeds' shares (Brizzle refused to sell them at any sensible price), but we had to take out debt to do so

ASBO - I think that the Leeds shares sold to Exeter have a "buy back" clause if Leeds return to the Jeff, although I don't know for sure.

Irish Londoner wrote:ASBO - I think that the Leeds shares sold to Exeter have a "buy back" clause if Leeds return to the Jeff, although I don't know for sure.

Feic  

Irish Londoner wrote:ASBO - I think that the Leeds shares sold to Exeter have a "buy back" clause if Leeds return to the Jeff, although I don't know for sure.

If so that a joke.

Teams like Exeter deserve alevel playing field

This debate always gets so boardroomy

All the BIZZ BUZZwords that have ever been invented got a mention on this here topic.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:ASBO - I think that the Leeds shares sold to Exeter have a "buy back" clause if Leeds return to the Jeff, although I don't know for sure.

Feic  

On the bright side, Leeds only sold them to clear off the contracts of players on Premiership salaries before relegation so they may not be able to buy them back even if promoted.

I do think that this far in that there is no need for this and that the money should be shared out equally to the teams in the Jeff and Championship - or a least a portion shared out and a portion based on league position. Following the BT deal the Jeff clubs are financially a lot better off.

To get this back to the BT deal - I wonder what Skys next move will be. Having lost the CL and the Jeff will they "do a BT" on BT and offer "free" access to the BT channels which use the Sky platform if you take the full Sky package - in effect a system where each provider offers it's competitors service for free to keep the customer tied in to the whole package with them.

Irish Londoner wrote:To get this back to the BT deal - I wonder what Skys next move will be. Having lost the CL and the Jeff will they "do a BT" on BT and offer "free" access to the BT channels which use the Sky platform if you take the full Sky package - in effect a system where each provider offers it's competitors service for free to keep the customer tied in to the whole package with them.

now we're beginning to think outside the box. ......................... you can bet your bottom dollar Sky will be thinking of nice creative ways to put the pressure on big spending BT

Yes that's allways a good plan..

give it out for free, then why switch??- however BT can then screw them on the price!!

Virgin has been shafted on the price of sky sports for ages, There were running a loss for a significant time as they had to sell the channels competitively but SKY was pressurizing them on a high price to offer it on there platform..


Once BT (if) get to a strong position competitively with sky- both will be effectively giving each other each others channels and they will then have an off the record cartel to price similar for the same services!!

................or a new company will emerge BSKYT

and then that damned monopoly trench that you all love to hate will be upon you all again.....

Any Cartel pricing is an effective monopoly. so one firm or 2 or 3 or 4 doesn't matter if that's happening however competition within the market can also aid quality , it can also mean our sports will receive a better price for there product.

Yes we can argue that we as consumers front the bill, but its better this than another country stealing our players because they receive more TV money and we cant affectively pay ours any more..

Yes we are know opening up the Wage cap as well, That IMO for me has to also stop or be raised each time TV company's pay more money.

There is also another point, and that is reporting, its better that we dont just have one TV company feeding us there views all day long..

The media can effectively pick your national teams!! The more different sources the more open minded we all become

mystiroakey wrote:

Yes we can argue that we as consumers front the bill, but its better this than another country stealing our players because they receive more TV money and we cant affectively pay ours any more..

Now you're getting on message, mystir.

interesting tweets coming from the rugby expo conference where maccafferty and Andrew Hore of Ospreys are talking

"#rugbyexpo very assured, confident display by Mark McCafferty backed up by Andrew Hore of the Osperys. Get the message out- it's happening"

speaker line up is below, so there are going to inevitably be some interesting soundbites...no-one from ERC, FFR or SKY speaking

Highlights from this year's speaker line up include:

Richard Ayers – CEO, Seven League
Peter Baumgartner – Chief Commercial Officer, Etihad Airways
Bill Beaumont CBE – Chairman, RFU and Six Nations Council
Nick Brown – General Manager Public Affairs, New Zealand Rugby
Louisa Cheetham – Senior Sponsorship & CR Manager, Aviva
Nick Chesworth – Senior VP & Senior Management Group Member, IMG Media
Andrew Cosslett – Chairman, England Rugby 2015
David Davies – Managing Director, Edinburgh Rugby
Nic Fletcher – Head of Marketing, RFU
Tomos Grace – Strategic Partner Manager, YouTube
Steve Grainger MBE – Rugby Development Director, RFU
Simon Green – Head of BT Sport
Dominic Hayes – Commercial Director, Premiership Rugby
Andrew Hore – CEO, Ospreys Rugby
Dan Jones – Partner, Sports Business Group, Deloitte
Debbie Jevans CBE – CEO, England Rugby 2015
Kristian Lorenzon – Head of Social Media, O2
David Lyons – Associate Director, Paddy Power
Andy Martin – CEO, London Irish
Paul Morgan – Communications Director, Premiership Rugby
Steve Martin – CEO, M&C Saatchi Sport & Entertainment
Mark McCafferty – CEO, Premiership Rugby
Wayne Morris – Community & CSR Director, Premiership Rugby
Derek Palmer – Managing Director & Executive VP, International, Tickets.com
Greg Peters – CEO, SANZAR
Matthew Prosser – Business Development Director EMEA, Agilysys
John Roberts – Director, AFLS+P
Quentin Smith – Chairman, Premiership Rugby

going to start a new thread for soundbites coming out of the rugby expo, as its a bit off topic for this particular thread.

quinsforever wrote:speaker line up is below, so there are going to inevitably be some interesting soundbites...no-one from ERC, FFR or SKY speaking

Which is pointed no?

Actually though, Bill Beaumont is from the ERC. And one or two other RFU personel there.

"The event, which has grown each year since its re-launch under Rugby Ventures Limited in 2009, can confirm a new partnership with Premiership Rugby that will ensure every Premiership club is in attendance at the event. There will also be high levels of attendance from the home unions, ERC and professional clubs from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and a number of international unions."

so they might be there, just not listed as headline speakers.

SecretFly wrote:Actually though, Bill Beaumont is from the ERC.  And one or two other RFU personel there.

not in the same way that Lux or McGrath or other ERC employees are.

quinsforever wrote:speaker line up is below, so there are going to inevitably be some interesting soundbites...no-one from ERC, FFR or SKY speaking

Highlights from this year's speaker line up include:

Richard Ayers – CEO, Seven League
Peter Baumgartner – Chief Commercial Officer, Etihad Airways
Bill Beaumont CBE – Chairman, RFU and Six Nations Council
Nick Brown – General Manager Public Affairs, New Zealand Rugby
Louisa Cheetham – Senior Sponsorship & CR Manager, Aviva
Nick Chesworth – Senior VP & Senior Management Group Member, IMG Media
Andrew Cosslett – Chairman, England Rugby 2015
David Davies – Managing Director, Edinburgh Rugby
Nic Fletcher – Head of Marketing, RFU
Tomos Grace – Strategic Partner Manager, YouTube
Steve Grainger MBE – Rugby Development Director, RFU
Simon Green – Head of BT Sport
Dominic Hayes – Commercial Director, Premiership Rugby
Andrew Hore – CEO, Ospreys Rugby [PRL lapdog]
Dan Jones – Partner, Sports Business Group, Deloitte
Debbie Jevans CBE – CEO, England Rugby 2015
Kristian Lorenzon – Head of Social Media, O2
David Lyons – Associate Director, Paddy Power
Andy Martin – CEO, London Irish
Paul Morgan – Communications Director, Premiership Rugby
Steve Martin – CEO, M&C Saatchi Sport & Entertainment
Wayne Morris – Community & CSR Director, Premiership Rugby
Derek Palmer – Managing Director & Executive VP, International, Tickets.com
Greg Peters – CEO, SANZAR
Matthew Prosser – Business Development Director EMEA, Agilysys
John Roberts – Director, AFLS+P

Lowlights from this year's speaker line up include:
Quentin Smith – Chairman, Premiership Rugby
Mark McCafferty – CEO, Premiership Rugby

Fixed it for you, quins, no charge on this occasion, happy to waive my normal 'fixing' fee

 

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Actually though, Bill Beaumont is from the ERC.  And one or two other RFU personel there.

not in the same way that Lux or McGrath or other ERC employees are.

Em Ol' Bill and sundry folks are bosses of Lux, McGrath. So you're right - not on the same level as the minions who run the company for them and the other Unions...oh and a few club bodies had voting rights too.

You keep saying it ain't so...but it is so.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Actually though, Bill Beaumont is from the ERC.  And one or two other RFU personel there.

not in the same way that Lux or McGrath or other ERC employees are.

Em Ol' Bill and sundry folks are bosses of Lux, McGrath.  So you're right - not on the same level as the minions who run the company for them and the other Unions...oh and a few club bodies had voting rights too.

You keep saying it ain't so...but it is so.

ok, so if Bill Beaumont says something do you think he will be referred to as ERC board member, or RFU and 6N Chairman?

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Actually though, Bill Beaumont is from the ERC.  And one or two other RFU personel there.

not in the same way that Lux or McGrath or other ERC employees are.

Em Ol' Bill and sundry folks are bosses of Lux, McGrath.  So you're right - not on the same level as the minions who run the company for them and the other Unions...oh and a few club bodies had voting rights too.

You keep saying it ain't so...but it is so.

ok, so if Bill Beaumont says something do you think he will be referred to as ERC board member, or RFU and 6N Chairman?

I don't care what he's refered to quins. I'm not a 'Lord', 'Sir' or 'Rear Admiral' kinda guy. They can address him whatever way they like - but he's from a company that is part owner of the ERC. That truth doesn't disappear simply because someone calls him Mr Beaumont or just Bill.

i have no idea where you are going with this SF. yes the rugby community is a small one i agree, and many people wear many hats. but my point is still valid that no-one listed as headline speakers, is representing ERC in their speaking capacity.

quinsforever wrote:i have no idea where you are going with this SF. yes the rugby community is a small one i agree, and many people wear many hats. but my point is still valid that no-one listed as headline speakers, is representing ERC in their speaking capacity.

I'm going nowhere with it.  I'm making points, that's all.  I'm not trying to begin or end a story.  Just points.  

You contantly push ERC into this bracket of being a hooded foreign anti English rugby outfit that exists exclusively outside English borders - and I'm telling you that living, breathing ERCers live and work at the heart of English rugby itself.

A point - not a story.