Lack of Joy, Lack of Success?

First topic message reminder :

After watching England lose to Australia in the rugby league world cup and watching the post match interviews something dawned on me.

Is the inherently joyless nature the Brits bring to sport responsible for their continued inability to foot it with the sun blessed fun loving boys from the southern hemisphere?

In the south, rugby is about passion, fun, running, showing off, executing outrageous skills, scoring tries, having fun with mates, the joyful bonding and rivalry with mates and opposition team members. A lot of rapturous jubilant elated uplifting energy is injected and out comes some sublime rugby and a history of success.

Contrast the wind beaten, rain lashed, grey of the north. The attitude brought here is the stiff upper lip, the grinding steely faced men, collars upturned against the elements, grim determination, phalanxes of dour faced combatants marching into war, and what I would call "fearful" rugby. It propagates control, order, slow, plodding monotonous structure, set pieces, kicks at goal. A win is a nervous grinding, painful, thing extracted like a venemous prickle with a hot needle.

More often than not these sullen faced ranks of northern hardship are simply overwhelmed and overrun by the smiling, jubilant dancing willow-the-wisps who bring a festive mood to the game.

Contrast Israel Dagg in full flight, wide grin on his face, trying something audacious, enjoying expressing himself in his contribution to the arrogant presence of a tight lipped Chris Ashton punching at the air before the try line, face burning with intent like he's out for revenge over some generations old nemesis. One continues to thrive, the other appears burned out.

ebop wrote:Are you're saying it isn't tiger, end...of...

I'm willing to be persuaded to your way. Quins posted some times. Do the time these days compare with the times of lances era? What about the overall time? It probably will be slower no doubt.

course different every year. route different. only the climbs are truly comparable (IMHO) as headwind is irrelevant, and there is little benefit from riding as a peloton while climbing. and yes since contador won in 2009, for comparable stages, times were on average slower. But, worryingly for my case, Froome this year was close to the performance level of late 2000s...maybe he's just a freak? at 6ft1 and 68kg during TdF he's certainly ideally built. but unfortunately cycling is just one of those sports where every standout performance is going to be questioned.

Going back to the original OP. I have never read a more satisfying match report (and it was in a NZ paper) than when England dominated NZ in NZ in 2003 prior to the RWC 2003. the english team were described as ugly, bullying orcs who ravaged the beautiful team and players of the ABs.

let me tell you there was fierce joy in reading that, fierce pride in england holding onto their #1 ranking going into RWC. and i bet you the england team felt likewise.

i could give not 1 hoot how a win is achieved. would rather win ugly than lose pretty every time. it's what the ABs and Aussies try to say to get teams to feel they have to play something different from their normal game. worked in rwc 1995 in the final. dont think it'll work any more. we're wise to it now.

Times are improving due to better training techniques. Jonathan Tiernan-Locke is currently trying to prove his innocence after inconsistencies in his biological passport were found at the recent Worlds. It's disclosures such as this that convince me that the UCI is doing its bit to clean up the Sport. The 2012 Tour of Britain winner was “extremely confident” earlier this month of proving the readings in question were the result of the illness he is said to have suffered since joining Team Sky.

To casually say as GE did that the sport is bent, without acknowledging the steps taken by UCI is ignorant in the extreme.

Tiger mate, the thing is, you're close to the sport so you'd have a better feel for it. If you've justified above with stats, times, gear and training improvement things that justify the 99% drug free claim but still maintaining the performance then ok. This goes some way to changing the average punters' mind. But as it stands, I'm not convinced given the history of the sport going back to the early 1900s.

ebop wrote:Tiger mate, the thing is, you're close to the sport so you'd have a better feel for it. If you've justified above with stats, times, gear and training improvement things that justify the 99% drug free claim but still maintaining the performance then ok. This goes some way to changing the average punters' mind. But as it stands, I'm not convinced given the history of the sport going back to the early 1900s.

I do feel sorry for today's pros who's achievements are doubted because of those who went before them. How many other sportsmen are compelled to provide up to date biological passports? Sky and other teams must record and show stats for all riders training programs in agreed formats.

There is even sniping at Froome and his improved stats from some French sources(despite his poorer earlier performances proved to be as a result of contracting bilharzia )who appear to be bitter and envious of the current crop of successful Brit riders. As Dave Brailsford jokingly replied to some probing French Journos, "our (French made) wheels are rounder than yours"

Bilharzia, nasty!

By the way, I flippantly said they were bent and not GE.

Well, I take on board what you're saying. As I said, I'm still not convinced but that may be ignorance. If 5-10 years go by without numerous busts then I'll change my perception.

Would you demand 10-15 years from Rugby if a revelation of some sorts hit the press tomorrow?

GE did casually add the sport is bent too!

Re: Lack of Joy, Lack of Success?
Post by GloriousEmpire Today at 7:22 pm

It's bent as a three bob note and the taxi driver that picked me up in Sloane square tonight and managed to run up a £20 fare to gloucester road.

it's clearly going to take a generation to clean the sport up properly. getting rid of the cronyist despot mcquaid is the single most important step in the right direction.

his predecessor at UCI, Hein Verbruggen is famously alleged to have said off the record to a journalist that of course the TdF is full of drugs....people used to be happy with a tour at average speeds of 30kmh, now they want 45 kmh. of course people are doping.

see the story at this link regarding alleged corruption at the governing body in relation to drugs, coverups, bribes, dodgy tests etc. absolutely shocking. and the douche-bag mcquaid almost get re-elected president last month!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-and-verbruggen-accused-of-corruption-in-report-summary

As much as I too despise Pat Mcquaid I'll raise you!.....Sepp Blatter

tigerleghorn wrote:Times are improving due to better training techniques. Jonathan Tiernan-Locke is currently trying to prove his innocence after  inconsistencies in his biological passport were found at the recent Worlds. It's disclosures such as this that convince me that the UCI is doing its bit to clean up the Sport. The 2012 Tour of Britain winner was “extremely confident” earlier this month of proving the readings in question were the result of the illness he is said to have suffered since joining Team Sky.

To casually say as GE did that the sport is bent, without acknowledging the steps taken by UCI is ignorant in the extreme.

You don't get points for effort. It's faker than professional wrestling. Whatever they're doing it's not enough

Going back to the original OP. I have never read a more satisfying match report (and it was in a NZ paper) than when England dominated NZ in NZ in 2003 prior to the RWC 2003. the english team were described as ugly, bullying orcs who ravaged the beautiful team and players of the ABs.

let me tell you there was fierce joy in reading that, fierce pride in england holding onto their #1 ranking going into RWC. and i bet you the england team felt likewise.

i could give not 1 hoot how a win is achieved. would rather win ugly than lose pretty every time. it's what the ABs and Aussies try to say to get teams to feel they have to play something different from their normal game. worked in rwc 1995 in the final. dont think it'll work any more. we're wise to it now.

Well we can all hark back to glory days. But im sure many welsh posters would regard reports of JPR et al carving up England, but the fact is that England's memories of glory are being more sepia tinted and dog eared by the day with all the pawing they get. Time to move on and not dwell in the past I feel.

amusing that you also seem to have forgotten your own OP. did you sneakily quaff a few pints in between pouring for actual paying customers in SW8?

success generates joy. end of.

maybe the real story here is how no matter how much success the ABs gather, the joy is not enough to compensate for the failures. GE, glad you prompted me, that's going to be a thread at some point in the near future. Just have to find a good quote that i can mis-attribute and then i'll be all set.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well we can all hark back to glory days. But im sure many welsh posters would regard reports of JPR et al carving up England, but the fact is that England's memories of glory are being more sepia tinted and dog eared by the day with all the pawing they get. Time to move on and not dwell in the past I feel.

GE I'm amazed at how much you've moved away from your original post here. We're on odd bunch us 'Northmen' aren't we? Grim-faced, joyless warriors...full of nostalgia and sepia-tinted memories of glory. I don't think even you know what bizarre collection of cliches you're mindlessly mashing together.

So, anyway, let's talk again about how if we were all just a typical Kiwi ray of sunshine like you we'd be as good and successful at sports like football, tennis, cycling, rowing, athletics, boxing, golf, cricket...hang on?

Maybe you guys need some of our grim, joyless determination. Just a thought.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:Times are improving due to better training techniques. Jonathan Tiernan-Locke is currently trying to prove his innocence after  inconsistencies in his biological passport were found at the recent Worlds. It's disclosures such as this that convince me that the UCI is doing its bit to clean up the Sport. The 2012 Tour of Britain winner was “extremely confident” earlier this month of proving the readings in question were the result of the illness he is said to have suffered since joining Team Sky.

To casually say as GE did that the sport is bent, without acknowledging the steps taken by UCI is ignorant in the extreme.

You don't get points for effort. It's faker than professional wrestling. Whatever they're doing it's not enough

Wum on Pilgrim. Your opinion on this is worthless

This is a rugby forum. I'm talking about rugby.

And please stop claiming Andy Murray as English. I'm not sure England have much to Crow about in football to be honest. Cycling? Golf? Boxing? NZ have had their fair share, as well as netball, yachting, not sure England can lord it over NZ in the sporting front really. Our cricketers punch above their weight for semi-professionals and give the might mother land the odd hurry up. For the size and wealth if Britain the results are stunningly mediocre.

GloriousEmpire wrote:This is a rugby forum. I'm talking about rugby.

And please stop claiming Andy Murray as English. I'm not sure England have much to Crow about in football to be honest. Cycling? Golf? Boxing? NZ have had their fair share, as well as netball, yachting, not sure England can lord it over NZ in the sporting front really. Our cricketers punch above their weight for semi-professionals and give the might mother land the odd hurry up.  For the size and wealth if Britain the results are stunningly mediocre.

Who's claiming Murray is English?

Why the sarcastic "Glorious Empire" tag and "Might (sic) Mother land reference?.....You're very chippy aren't you?

its strange, but i never hear anyone in GB talking about how we do relative to our population, GDP or average panty size compared to the US, China or wherever. Must be the exclusive province of chippy people trapped in a country affording them a lifestyle their own country could not.

quinsforever wrote:its strange, but i never hear anyone in GB talking about how we do relative to our population, GDP or average panty size compared to the US, China or wherever. Must be the exclusive province of chippy people trapped in a country affording them a lifestyle their own country could not.

That in a nutshell is where GE quite obviously is at this stage of his bitter existence.

quinsforever wrote:its strange, but i never hear anyone in GB talking about how we do relative to our population, GDP or average panty size compared to the US, China or wherever. Must be the exclusive province of chippy people trapped in a country affording them a lifestyle their own country could not.

That's because you do so poorly relative to your population and wealth. If you did vaguely well, don't worry, we'd hear all about it.

you're right. Grenada is clearly where we should be aiming in order to hit their olympic medals per capital achievement.  

Grenada or Granada? Today I was reading that BA find it hard to tell the difference.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Grenada or Granada? Today I was reading that BA find it hard to tell the difference.

What a sad sad life you have poor thing. Constantly let down by everything around you.

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's bent as a three bob note and the taxi driver that picked me up in Sloane square tonight and managed to run up a £20 fare to gloucester road.

Bet he couldn't believe his luck!. Picked up an idiot who chose a taxi over two stops and 4 mins on the Circle or District.

Circle and district wasn't running yesterday due to the Erm "storm
Of the century" or whatever it was supposed to be.

Ah, another seafood thread.

So folks, Floyd or Stein?

Floyd for me.

Was there a bit of drizzle on the tracks GE?

Apparently leaves had blown near the track and there was some fear a major catastrophe would ensue if a 50 tonne train attempted to pass and one fluttered into its path.

Still by far the silliest excuse to run a national embarrassment of a transport system was when they shut the Waterloo and City line in rush hour because of "dust on the platform". Classy.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Apparently leaves had blown near the track and there was some fear a major catastrophe would ensue if a 50 tonne train attempted to pass and one fluttered into its path.

Still by far the silliest excuse to run a national embarrassment of a transport system was when they shut the Waterloo and City line in rush hour because of "dust on the platform". Classy.

I heard 7+ people have died due to the storm. As per form GE, class personified.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Apparently leaves had blown near the track and there was some fear a major catastrophe would ensue if a 50 tonne train attempted to pass and one fluttered into its path.

Still by far the silliest excuse to run a national embarrassment of a transport system was when they shut the Waterloo and City line in rush hour because of "dust on the platform". Classy.

I heard 7+ people have died due to the storm. As per form GE, class personified.

Sadly it's what we've come to expect from him.

As I've said before, more than four times that number die every single day in the uk from external accidental factors such as trees falling on them, scaffolding collapsing, drain coverings giving way etc. reporting it as though these people have died in some biblical calamity is nothing to do with any sort of media propriety, it's all to do with shameful sensationalism and actually scandalously leveraging their deaths to validate their hysterical news story.

GloriousEmpire wrote:As I've said before, more than four times that number die every single day in the uk from external accidental factors such as trees falling on them, scaffolding collapsing, drain coverings giving way etc. reporting it as though these people have died in some biblical calamity is nothing to do with any sort of media propriety, it's all to do with shameful sensationalism and actually scandalously leveraging their deaths to validate their hysterical news story.

I read that 250,000 homes are still without power.... why is it that GE's garden shed wasn't one of them. Oh woe is me. Obviously 7 people dead isn't enough... what is? 10, 100, 1000 perhaps.

How can you live with yourself posting about rugby all day when millions of people die every single week most of which are preventable and yet harldy any one them are reported.

Actually the above is inaccurate, GE never posts about rugby.

Hood83 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:http://www.medalspercapita.com

Seems once again that old Britain is somehow unable to effectively manage its wealth of resources to yield the expected proportion of global success. I suspect that having become accustomed to that eventuality it's only natural that the jubilant celebration of mediocrity that we saw was the appropriate response. 

Now go on, remind us how often you almost won another World Cup too...

Haha, i knew you'd bring out this pitiful piece of arithmetic, it was trotted out by desperate Aussies at the time, unfortunately it was round about the same time they were wailing and wringing their hands about the death of Aussie sporting culture, or trying to convince themselves silver was the new gold. Their gold per capita was below us, comfortably, even if their medal count for first and second loser was very good - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/no-olympic-silver-is-not-the-new-gold/story-e6frg7bo-1226445131393#

Of course, New Zealand's gold medal per capita is very impressive. It puts them alongside the well-known sporting giants of Grenada and Bahamas - if only you could manage your wealth and resources as effectively as them, maybe you'd have the same glory and adulation heaped on you eh? Of course, I'm sure the US was distraught that it's 271 medals represented a less then efficient use of their resources but they probably did the same as us and consoled themselves with the seemingly endless procession of winners - proof that contrary to your original post, sporting success is in fact the preserve of us northern hemisphere lot.  

It's a shame that sporting success so obviously hugely penalises small countries, but there you go.

Now go on, tell us about how you're really really good at rugby.

Hoody are you suggesting that we arent really really good at rugby?

who cares about per capita wins... its lilke judging pound for pound boxers... "Ah Floyd Mayweather is pound for pound better then Wladimir Klitschko".

It doesn't mean a thing....  in the end Mayweather will get a beating like no other every time.

The Olympics medal count can be skewed away from large countries anyhow and benefit smaller ones.

Take the 100m sprint. Countries are only allowed 3 entries no matter if they are from China or the USA. If it was say the best 100 sprinters in the world I would bet at least 1/3 would come from the USA.
That gives other nations, other runners a chance.... often the USA has to leave a number of sprinters who have clocked sub 10 seconds that season... most countries have never even had a single sprinter reach that benchmark in their history.

The same applies for most sports.

In some you could be the 2nd best athlete in the world in your field... but if they only allow 1 entry per country, you won't be even allowed to compete.

although in fairness... AUS in league could have probably entered half the sides into the RL world cup and perhaps even come first, second & third etc on numerous occasions. So it can also occur in team sports too... although probably not in rugby given at the moment RWC have been split pretty evenly between 4 nations.

Britain literally bought their sucess at the last Olymipcs. Their Olympic budget was astronomical compared to everyone else. Would like to see a medal per budget table.

I wonder why Mayweather is the highest paid sportsman in the World and Klitschko isnt?

Fa0019 you're too quick to dismiss the element of quality.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I wonder why Mayweather is the highest paid sportsman in the World and Klitschko isnt?

 Fa0019 you're too quick to dismiss the element of quality.

I wonder how much that is to do with Mayweather actually being American and Klitschko not.

fa0019 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: I wonder why Mayweather is the highest paid sportsman in the World and Klitschko isnt?

 Fa0019 you're too quick to dismiss the element of quality.

I wonder how much that is to do with Mayweather actually being American and Klitschko not.

Federer, Messi, Beckham, Ronaldo etc are all higher paid sportsmen than Klitschko and they arent American.

One of the things that I found interesting at the last Olympics is that some of Britain's top names won gold with very slow times.

Mo Farrah's time of 27:30.42 for 10,000 meter gold would not have been good enough to win gold for any of the previous 7 Olympics and would only have been good enough to get bronze twice at best in the previous 7.

Why the sudden and very sigificant drop in quality? The previous gold winner in 2008 Kenenisa Bekele did it in a time of 27:01. Why the big difference?

GunsGerms wrote:One of the things that I found interesting at the last Olympics is that some of Britain's top names won gold with very slow times.

Mo Farrah's time of 27:30.42 for 10,000 meter gold would not have been good enough to win gold for any of the previous 7 Olympics and would only have been good enough to get bronze twice at best in the previous 7.

Why the sudden and very sigificant drop in quality? The previous gold winner in 2008 Kenenisa Bekele did it in a time of 27:01. Why the big difference?

Chemical assistance.

Some of the British work ethic had rubbed off on the athletes?

GunsGerms wrote:One of the things that I found interesting at the last Olympics is that some of Britain's top names won gold with very slow times.

Mo Farrah's time of 27:30.42 for 10,000 meter gold would not have been good enough to win gold for any of the previous 7 Olympics and would only have been good enough to get bronze twice at best in the previous 7.

Why the sudden and very sigificant drop in quality? The previous gold winner in 2008 Kenenisa Bekele did it in a time of 27:01. Why the big difference?

Distance races are run tactically. It's not all about pure speed, but more about timing breaks.

GunsGerms wrote:One of the things that I found interesting at the last Olympics is that some of Britain's top names won gold with very slow times.

Mo Farrah's time of 27:30.42 for 10,000 meter gold would not have been good enough to win gold for any of the previous 7 Olympics and would only have been good enough to get bronze twice at best in the previous 7.

Why the sudden and very sigificant drop in quality? The previous gold winner in 2008 Kenenisa Bekele did it in a time of 27:01. Why the big difference?

Weather, Altitude, climate........

Cant be a drugs as previous winners came from countries that would not have the funding or research capabilities for chemical assistance such as my favorite Olympian Haile Gebrselassie. Id say the odds of Mo Farrah taking drugs are higher than someone from Ethiopia.

Cyril wrote:
Distance races are run tactically. It's not all about pure speed, but more about timing breaks.

He was the slowest winner for 7 Olympics. That has nothing to do with tactics.

My theory is that stricter doping rules for the London olympics have penalised countries that dont have adequate drugs testing regimes in place and the best runners may not have been at the London games.

Guns, you seem similar to GloriousEmpire in the way you want to denigrate British success and put it down to being 'bought' or the best athletes not being present (or performing poorly).

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:
Distance races are run tactically. It's not all about pure speed, but more about timing breaks.

He was the slowest winner for 7 Olympics. That has nothing to do with tactics.

But he is the 15th fastest Athlete over 10,000 metres of all time with a PB set 1 year before his Olympic triumph faster then any Olympic final in history. I would imagine tactics have a lot to do with it.

However your statement is only partially correct. He was faster then the 92 winner in Barcelona which means its been the slowest of the last 5 Olympics, not 7.

GunsGerms wrote:Cant be a drugs as previous winners came from countries that would not have the funding or research capabilities for chemical assistance such as my favorite Olympian Haile Gebrselassie. Id say the odds of Mo Farrah taking drugs are higher than someone from Ethiopia.

Gunsgerms
Dont be so naive, look at last years London Olympics, Nadzeya ostapchuk denied she was taking drugs ,on the basis that because she came from a poor country (Belarus) and that she couldnt possibly have access to drugs, what it was that she was deprived of was masking agents, but it stood out like dogs balls at the time to anyone with an iota of gumption/common sense that she was chemically assisted.